Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Hmm, while I dislike Marcone on principle, he is right. If we can work with ghouls, we can work with him. That, of course, puts him within talking distance of a socially focused exalt. Fairly sure we could reform him over the course of several months.

Any true fantasy city needs a respectable thieves guild (no, it f*cking doesn't).
 
I don't want to fight her. Why should I? We neither claim undertown nor lose anything out of the diamond buisness. I want to make her a proposal. After all if she can work with cannibals what's a few made guys"
I mean, Marcone's missing a few key facts, but he's got a point. Our guys were definitely guilty of being cannibals.

A partnership with Marcone might be a bit too much for the current Molly but a non-aggression pact like the one with Lara would be okay for me.
 
Hmm, while I dislike Marcone on principle, he is right. If we can work with ghouls, we can work with him. That, of course, puts him within talking distance of a socially focused exalt. Fairly sure we could reform him over the course of several months.

Any true fantasy city needs a respectable thieves guild (no, it f*cking doesn't).
The main difference then the ghouls is that with them we are clearly in charge and I don't think that Marcone is willing to become our vassal. Also I can't really see anything that he has to offer us without becoming our vassel especially after we get our kingdom.
I mean, Marcone's missing a few key facts, but he's got a point. Our guys were definitely guilty of being cannibals.



A partnership with Marcone might be a bit too much for the current Molly but a non-aggression pact like the one with Lara would be okay for me.
Thing is Marcone actually isn't threatening or necessary enough for a non aggression pact to actually be useful for us.

The white court is at least arguable necessary to fill a nitch currently. Marcone isn't. If he disappeared tomorrow we could fill in very quickly.

Marcone is a Murphy level problem and where we have no problem throwing his people in jail.
 
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The main difference then the ghouls is that with them we are clearly in charge and I don't think that Marcone is willing to become our vassal. Also I can't really see anything that he has to offer us without becoming our vassel especially after we get our kingdom.
He can provide retributive justice against magically aware humans. If we can't actually involve the police, we could involve mafia. It's not a good solution, but it is one.

Also, this would be less about what he can provide and more about how to get rid of (violent) crime in the least bloody way
 
. Marcone isn't. If he disappeared tomorrow we could fill in very quickly.
False.

Aside from his ruthlessness, Marcone was ridiculously adaptable to supernatural side of things, savvy enough in business, schemes, and general application of violence, along with contacts to numerous powerful actors like the American and Mexican drug cartels plus freaking Odin on speed dial. When Mab commented that he would have made a great king in medieval times, she wasn't joking around.

Besides, meta-wise, Marcone was pretty clearly set up by Jim Butcher as an antihero protagonist in opposition to Dresden. Sorta like the Sasuke to Dresden's Naruto kinda deal. Guys like that are not what you would call replaceable.
 
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False.

Aside from his ruthlessness, Marcone was ridiculously adaptable to supernatural side of things, savvy enough in business, schemes, and general application of violence, along with contacts to numerous powerful actors like the American and Mexican drug cartels plus freaking Odin on speed dial. When Mab commented that he would have made a great king in medieval times, she wasn't joking around.

Besides, meta-wise, Marcone was pretty clearly set up by Jim Butcher as an antihero protagonist in opposition to Dresden. Sorta like the Sasuke to Dresden's Naruto kinda deal. Guys like that are not what you would call replaceable.
Yes and we do all of that better then him. We can totally replace him.
 
False.

Aside from his ruthlessness, Marcone was ridiculously adaptable to supernatural side of things, savvy enough in business, schemes, and general application of violence, along with contacts to numerous powerful actors like the American and Mexican drug cartels plus freaking Odin on speed dial. When Mab commented that he would have made a great king in medieval times, she wasn't joking around.

Besides, meta-wise, Marcone was pretty clearly set up by Jim Butcher as an antihero protagonist in opposition to Dresden. Sorta like the Sasuke to Dresden's Naruto kinda deal. Guys like that are not what you would call replaceable.
We could take over his organization as a weekend getway if we really wanted to.

Like we are so much better than him its insane.
 
Molly does not have the stats for that. Things like Finance etc.

Also being a Mafia boss is a full time Job. Molly does not have the time.
 
Hmm, while I dislike Marcone on principle, he is right. If we can work with ghouls, we can work with him. That, of course, puts him within talking distance of a socially focused exalt. Fairly sure we could reform him over the course of several months.

Any true fantasy city needs a respectable thieves guild (no, it f*cking doesn't).
He's a hell of a lot cleaner than the White and Red Courts, Mab and company, or the actual hells. And we are at least trying to smooth things out with all of the above. We would be a dirty hypocrite by a large margin if we weren't willing to deal with him. He's not great but, seriously, what does he do that we haven't already proven we are willing to turn a blind eye to in the name of general peace and prosperity?

The best we can reasonably ask for is for him to sit down and play the card game with everyone else with agreed upon rules. We're not required to trade favors with him but he's free to try to make his case as to why we should. Sometimes it will be in our interest to, sometimes it won't and he can go fuck himself, but its right and proper to have protocols for how that discussion should go down.
 
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I mean, Marcone's missing a few key facts, but he's got a point. Our guys were definitely guilty of being cannibals.

A partnership with Marcone might be a bit too much for the current Molly but a non-aggression pact like the one with Lara would be okay for me.
Some level of business dealings are likely a requirement. We can't just pretend he doesn't exist, and we aren't ready for a gang war.

Even if we were actually starting one isn't necessarily in our interests. Energy spent fighting Marcone is energy we can't put towards any of the dramatically worse things going on in the city.

A nonaggression pact is a start, but it's worth noting that to a certain extent interaction allows for influence.

If we're a big account with his mob then our displeasure is more likely to see him change what he's doing.
We stopped. We initiated engagement. We voted to initiate engagement.
Going from more or less meaningless social flammery to intimidation without so much as a stop in between or any sort of inciting behavior is not conducive to our goal of appearing to be not just powerful but also rational and predictable.
To swing back to this again, nothing about my plan is particularly irrational or unpredictable.

He burst our intimidation bubble, he's testing if we're puffed up or not in addition to whatever else he's playing at here.

We haven't decided on a mode of interaction yet either other than rejecting the most hostile one of literally running him over. The entire point of this vote is deciding this issue, which is why I find your argument about it already being set annoying.

The benefit of the intimidation play is twofold.

The first is that it confirms rather than refutes the reaction Molly has been deliberately cultivating in the observers. My plan doesn't call for us to attack him or initiate an anima flare, it calls for us to press him without even raising Molly's voice. So it proceeds along the lines we've already been following.

The second is that it disrupts his game plan. Vittorio did do this deliberately, he's fishing for information and trying to set up a con of some kind here. Etiquette fencing with him is probably exactly what he (thinks he) wants, and even if it's something we can win it's still playing to his strengths and preparations.

Intimidation by contrast chokes him up, we stand here to all appearances taking no hostile action and he has to roll not to crap his pants. It's not like he's going to vanish into a puff of smoke at that point, we can proceed to needle him for information while he's still screwing his head back on as we please.

Remember that we're at a vampire party and he's trying to be a political power here. Whimpering and running off like a whipped dog isn't an option for him after he stuck his neck out. Forcing him to split his attention between social combat with us and managing his reactions so that they don't sink his political career is too our advantage.

Fencing with him can also work, but it's giving him advantages for little to no benefit in return.
 
We could take over his organization as a weekend getway if we really wanted to.

Like we are so much better than him its insane.
I think you're overestimating Molly.

She's good at a lot of things, but not at a lot of the specific ones she'd need to do this. There's also the matter of personal reach and connections.

We call Molly a social exalt, but her excellencies are carrying her there. Most of her social kit outside of that is information gathering related, which is useful but not the same as dedicated people management charms.

Even taking his organization from the top getting in the room with everyone we want to get working with us instead would be a challenge.

Let's not forget that about half the time we've laughed to ourselves about fantastic cosmic social powers Charity, a heroic mortal, has tanked our bullshit and come out swinging. So assuming we can just force the issue once we're in the room isn't necessarily accurate itself anyway.

There's also the question of what the point would be.

We can't realistically enforce a no crime policy. If someone isn't filling the niche then people will keep moving around to do it themselves. So taking out/over Marcone's operation basically means doing the same thing he is right now.

From a moral perspective that isn't the sort of business Molly wants to get into IC, and from a practical one it isn't necessary to get all the power he has and more.

If we do reach the point where we're willing to accept the risk, costs, and culpability of something like this why wouldn't we just become a billionaire financial manipulator and rent Marcone like a glorified party clown when we need his stuff instead? We'd get the same benefit with fewer overall headaches.
 
There are character sheets for pretty much everyone of importance in ASWAH, unfortunately some pages got deleted or reshuffled at some point in the past and now all of the links for the sheets don't point to the correct post from what I can tell. They're still fairly close, though. You should be able to find them if you look at the thread pages close to where the link takes you.
Ok thanks I'll try to find them, if I cant do you think you can help me find em?
 
Ok thanks I'll try to find them, if I cant do you think you can help me find em?
You're guess is as good as mine, and I'm the one who made most of the sheets. I used to have links to info pages for ASWAH in my signature, but even those stopped being any good once the post numbers got messed up. That's why I deleted them.

I would recommend doing a word search in the ASWAH thread. Use my name as the poster, include the character you're looking for, and a word like Equipment. That will probably work, and once you find one, that should get you to a lot of others, since they were mostly posted in sequence.
 
We can't realistically enforce a no crime policy.
We totally can. With endless torment emanation and just a small amount of information gathering we totally can. Every gang will become so incompetent at crime that the cops catch them in a week.

Or inner darkness unchained and just turn all criminals into COD that are forced to serve us.
 
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We totally can. With endless torment emanation and just a small amount of information gathering we totally can. Every gang will become so incompetent at crime that the cops catch them in a week.

Or inner darkness unchained and just turn all criminals into COD that are forced to serve us.
This has done fundamental flaws baked into it, primarily relating to scale and organization.

Right now a lot of crime is organized, and new players have a hard time muscling in from a combination of active opposition and the demand being satisfied.

Thing is, it's not hard to come up with ideas like prostitution or selling drugs and you don't need a crime license to start trying.

You topple 'the gangs', and then you have an endless disorganized horde of completely disconnected people who all try to fill the same demand long as there's money in it.

Dealing with all that also requires a constant flow of information about stuff that's by design not trivially monitored. It's not impossible, but acquiring and maintaining that level of intelligence isn't a trivial task itself.

You'd basically have to have lodge a cyber devil up the nose of everyone in the city to even try.

This is a Sisyphean problem, not a dragon you can slay and then go back to other things.
 
By the next year the entire cities camera network will all be linked into a single city wide spynetwork. A single Cyber devil will in fact be able to monitor everybody.
Feds already have all those cameras if they want them. Crime still exists.

We could make better use of it in a lot of ways, but you're hilariously underestimating the amount of data involved, how much relevant information is actually entirely inaccessible, and the scope of how many different fires would need to be put out at once.
 
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