Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

So, wait, does this guy have True Faith?

No, this is just the normal rules for presence, if you are willing to pay a willpower you can roll a hard willpower roll (DC 8) to resist the vampire and act normally for the scene, but Thomas just kept triggering the power, because he had a lot more lifeforce than this guy had willpower so he had to resist once per round.

Most people either do not pay the willpower (because why would they, they don't know what a whampire is) or they fail the roll. This guy did pay and he had very good rolls.
 
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The fundamental question here, I think, is "do we value American law?". If these are ants of god, then they are mortals, hunting mortals - they are, in essence, a hate group, and, despite their knowledge of the supernatural, very much what police is meant to be handling, specifically what SI is meant to be handling, possibly with LoC doing the cover up. Would being involved in the investigation be more complex than murdering them all? Yes, it would. Is it worth it? That's a question we need to answer.

A reminder - we do have a layer of insulation through Harry, who is a known private detective and SI consultant (actually, we should probably get a PI license, maybe as Harry's official intern or something, I think).

Does knowledge of the supernatural automatically exempt you from involving the law enforcement is a question I am asking.
For my part this specific situation is about respecting lives first.

The ants shouldn't be immune to mortal law, nor should just knowing about stuff give you special privileges, but this particular incident is happening at a very nasty time.

If I didn't think turning them over for a credible version of what they actually did would immediately become real problem, rather than simply a risk, to Ordo members staying alive I wouldn't be arguing as strongly (or likely at all) about this.

On Molly's involvement; we have zero insulation. Harry being a PI is a datapoint, but the cops aren't idiots or incompetents just because they're throughly incapable of handling this situation.

Get them into an area of expertise, like a murder investigation, and they'll be hell on wheels for digging up every little detail of everything so long as they're inclined to press forward.

I'm not saying protecting ourselves is a reason to avoid the justice system, but it's worth minding the scope we're dealing with here.
sudden weariness you see in Liz' eyes, like holding someone at a window was somehow worse than choking the other guy out.
We did just hold a mortal down for a supernatural predator. That shows some line crossing for one of the people typically worried about being prey.
 
[X] Reveal that they have been lied to and used, try to get through to them (Charisma+Empathy)
-[X] Call dad and father Forthil to help
-[X] Use BSM and CCC to lower the difficulty
 
I'm not sure it would be wise to expose the good father to... creative use of CCC, he might look in askance at trapping the door to the interrogation room with bombs
ok, that's fair. But damn, that -3 DC is very, very tempting. Base DC is almost certainly 9, so we need reduction. That's either CCC, or TLF somehow... I assume that the logical chain "we have this man imprisoned in a place of desolation, in order to be able to release him, we need to convince him we are right, so convincing him we are right is protecting him from the place of desolation" is not going to fly?
 
Could we not waste time on getting mooks to talk in a critical phase?

[X] Focus on securing the rest of the Order
-[X] Leave the captives in Undertown with the next run down there, interrogate later
 
Could we not waste time on getting mooks to talk in a critical phase?

[X] Focus on securing the rest of the Order
-[X] Leave the captives in Undertown with the next run down there, interrogate later
in fairness we could make it like a sentence then do the tie them up plan. Just say you've been lied to but I don't have time to explain so bye. Like I doubt they'll believe us but it is a thing we can do for our own conscience.
 
ok, that's fair. But damn, that -3 DC is very, very tempting. Base DC is almost certainly 9, so we need reduction. That's either CCC, or TLF somehow... I assume that the logical chain "we have this man imprisoned in a place of desolation, in order to be able to release him, we need to convince him we are right, so convincing him we are right is protecting him from the place of desolation" is not going to fly?

Too tenuous for the charm yeah.
 
Can you expand on what you mean?
Do this basically 👇

The cops are helpless because the government doesn't have a monopoly on force. Patching the legal system won't do jack without changing that and giving them some way to not get rolled or glamoured.

When the precincts are hard enough targets that a light heavy weight or squad of mediums can't roll over the station cost free and the local police squads can match a squad of supernatural foot soldiers, then you can think about updating the legal code.
Since we can do all of those things pretty much.

We would need a few charms, but establishing that in our own territory at least should be useful.
 
[X] Reveal that they have been lied to and used, try to get through to them (Charisma+Empathy)
-[X] Preparatory intel gathering
--[X] Have Clippy run down their identities, and see if other Ants of God can be identified through their social media connections
--[X] Summon a cyberdevil into the observer's and sniper's cellphones if they have any to obtain all relevant information
--[X] Use their clothes as foci to learn what they were told by their White Court masters, and who was it that deceived them
-[X] Call dad and father Forthil to help
--[X] Brief them fully on the prisoners using the gathered information
-[X] Use BSM to lower the difficulty, ATB with willpower to read them
-[X] STUNT: "Be not afraid, *names obtained through data mining*" you say, as you enter the makeshift cell that the prisoners are kept under watch, lest they do harm - to others or themselves. Behind you father Forthil enters, in his habit, bible in hand, and behind him, the Knight of the Cross walks, the Sword of Love on his hip, and every inch a paladin of the Christ. As guards leave, closing the door behind them, you speak again: "You have been deceived and led astray, bewitched by those that would prey on humanity. Do not despair, for we are here, and we can help. "


Something like this? Obtain maximum information about who they are before starting deprogramming, enlist Michael's and Forthil's help. On "be not afraid" - Molly is clearly something very powerful, prisoners already know that, so we can't hide that and pretend to be something approachable. Thus, the only reasonable thing is to lean into it.
 
One thing to note is that the cops in Chicago are hella corrupt in Dresden Files. We already experienced that. Murphy is very much the exception rather than the norm. And her superiors sidelined her career for that. Enabling the CPD is not a good idea in Dresden FIles imo.
 
Honestly this makes me want to create a primer on the supernatural like a pamphlet that we can just throw at people. Those not in the know would probably just think its a roleplay or game thing if they caught site of it. But, its useful if we just want a quick read this when you want. Given our occult knowledge is pretty useless for this as we don't and am not sure ever will know what the fuck supernatural politics are like. Not as much as dresden at least. We'll likely know deep secrets while also barely knowing the common supernatural knowledge someone would get in apprenticeship.
 
COMMENTARY
Going to point out that Harry was there when Michael beheaded Ursiel's bearer. When Michael stabbed one of Nicky's minions to death. And has himself been responsible for the deaths of Quintus Cassius and the first death of the Corpsetaker.
All humans. I assume his chivalry is just acting up.

Honestly not sure what the intent here is supposed to be.

The cultists had no way of knowing Molly would be here at this time, so all this prepwork, with the observer and the camera, would have been to record the shooting of Liz. They set up a second person to record one of their own guys committing a murder?
Why?

I mean, fanatics often arent rational, but this is dumb even for them.
Of course, the potential of Whampire mind magic in the mix complicates stuff, because we dont know how much here is free will and how much wololo is in play.

On the bright side, the fact that this dude, acting under the aegis of his Whampire handlers, pointed a sniper rifle at a party including an Infernal, a Warden regional commander and the son of the White King gives us undisputable casus belli against his handlers.
People might have tried to quibble about the Cauldron members, but they sure as hell cant quibble about this.

===
So, not a complete amateur.
Anyone who's watched a crime TV show knows about gloves and fingerprints.
All it tells us is that this was a premeditated action, because he came prepared with gloves beforehand.
And given that this is November, he might have just been wearing gloves for the weather.

... An unpopular decision, but... Delay kingdom by one more turn. Buy splintered gale incarnation. Get out of AP hell.
Speaking as an advocate of Splintered Gale Incarnation?
I dont really expect it to get rid of AP hell, because thats a feature of questing, just to improve our flexibility and firepower.

Involving the cops will only make our job more difficult. If Murphy even learns of this event we can explain this fact to her. The police are fucking useless against the supernatural in fact sometimes they are actively detrimental because they don't know of the danger. That mortal sniper is working with the Whampires who would have no issue at all breaking into a police station to kill someone with a mortal protection detail.
The thread consensus voted to keep Murphy in the loop.
I didnt think it was a good idea, but that was the thread consensus, and we gave our word on that basis.
So we need to honor our commitment somehow.

The follow-up question is "how much of a connection to the supernatural you need to be insulated from the law?". Because ants of god aren't a cartel. They are a local street gang. Winter Court is North Korea, White Court is a Mexican cartel / mafia, but ants of god are a local minor gang preying on a local neighborhood association. Do they also get immunity from the law? Do we want them to have it?
They arent a local street gang, they are a Whampire catspaw.
That rather changes the context of events. If we didnt know what they were, dumping them on the cops would be fine.
Now that we do....

Potential consideration: The Sniper's Gun.
It's potentially useful battlefield loot to give our minions?
Edit: Or did we make it unsalvageably unfunctional? I forget.
Its a weapon belonging to someone who was prepared to commit premeditated murder of a civilian.
There's good chance its previously been used in the commission of a crime.
Never steal and keep weapons from known criminals, lest you unwittingly incriminate yourself.

Molly will take it, I mean if nothing else leaving it on the ground would be evidence and she does not want any of that at the scene of the force choking friendly hug :V
Going to point out that this is America, land of the NRA. Now that Molly is 18, she can legally cross the border into Wisconsin or Indiana and buy an AR15 assault rifle or some boutique sniper rifle over the counter without issue. Same day.
She could even buy it in Illnois as well, but it will take longer because she doesnt have an FOID card yet.

It wont cost her more than $600 or so for a basic AR-pattern assault rifle, and less than $2k for a high quality rifle.
And thats without just building her own.
She isnt doing it because she doesnt need it, and because it reduces her legal exposure.

COMMENTARY
Sniper dude is in his twenties, camera guy in his fifties.
The disparity in ages makes it unlikely they were part of an organic friend group.
We need to look for something else in common. Job, church, family, military unit.


Their having been fed on before increases the likelihood they are both under a geas of some sort.
Madeline Raith did it to a lawyer in Turn Coat, and Lara did it to the lesser skinwalker, so I would assume its possible their vampire handlers have done so here.

In particular, Camera Guy's attempt to commit suicide rather than risk capture screams of an implanted command.
Dresden could soulgaze them to check, but I wouldnt ask that of him. And I dont know if Thomas can do so.
Molly should be able to tell if she spins up Hellscry Chakra; domination/compulsion magic will show up in their aura.

That means we need to use Empathy to get around whatever commands are in their head.
As opposed to Intimidation, because they might be straight up unable to obey.

OOC: Rolling for this was a mess. I initially treated your strength for the purposes of keeping the guy in place as 7 (the successes you rolled for mind hand) and thanks to some skewed rolls you got the situation above, but then I did it again with the proper 8 (Your temporary willpower) and it went a lot worse so I'm just keeping the first set of rolls. I did accidentally give you guys an extra damage dice on the last turn because I added up your temp willpower as the full 9 and not the 8 it should have been after you paid ATB from it so it balances out
No harm done, but you did the rolls wrong:
With 3+ successes, the Infernal can "fly" by moving herself around telekinetically. She may also grapple or strike her opponents using telekinesis, using a dice pool of Intelligence + (lower of Occult and Brawl or Melee). These attacks inflict bashing damage, and the Infernal's Temporary Willpower acts as her effective Strength value.
Normal grapple rolls are Str + Brawl vs Str + Brawl.
Only here, MHM substitues with Int + Brawl/Occult/Melee, whichever is lowest.

That opposed roll would have been Molly(Intelligence 4 + Occult 5 + Occult Excellency 9 at DC6 - BSM 1) vs Camera Guy(Str + Brawl at DC6). Since you chose to use the results of the original roll, it would be Molly(7 successes) vs Camera Guy(??sux)
Molly would have won those rolloffs pretty handily.
 
All humans. I assume his chivalry is just acting up.
It's not about murder. It's about murder with what he still instinctively considers magic from someone who he still considers human.
They set up a second person to record one of their own guys committing a murder?
Why?
That's easy enough - propaganda / indoctrination / motivational video. So they can show the video to their converts / members to further radicalize them. Same reason ISIS recorded beheadings.
They arent a local street gang, they are a Whampire catspaw.
They are a local street gang who has a cartel supplier in this analogy.
 
The cultists had no way of knowing Molly would be here at this time, so all this prepwork, with the observer and the camera, would have been to record the shooting of Liz. They set up a second person to record one of their own guys committing a murder?
Why?

I mean, fanatics often arent rational, but this is dumb even for them.
Of course, the potential of Whampire mind magic in the mix complicates stuff, because we dont know how much here is free will and how much wololo is in play.
The initial plan could have been to scare Liz using the sniper rather than killing her, at least at first, in order to get footage of her lashing out with magic to defend herself. Unlike Harry and other full blown Wizards, a lesser practitioner such as Liz probably wouldn't ruin the camera when she started throwing around her scraps of power.
 
ok, that's fair. But damn, that -3 DC is very, very tempting. Base DC is almost certainly 9, so we need reduction. That's either CCC, or TLF somehow... I assume that the logical chain "we have this man imprisoned in a place of desolation, in order to be able to release him, we need to convince him we are right, so convincing him we are right is protecting him from the place of desolation" is not going to fly?
They're mortals, and nonheroic at that. I doubt its DC9 unless mindcontrol is involved.

Transcendent Lord of Flies triggers in Undertown; these two are a threat to people Molly promised to protect, so interrogating them falls under the "protect" clause. Thats -3DC. Boiling Sea Mastery is another -1DC.
This brings a DC9 task down to DC5.

Hellscry Chakra allows you to read their aura as an emotional monitor.
And aura reading in particular enables you to check if they are under any sort of mind control.
 
It's not about murder. It's about murder with what he still instinctively considers magic from someone who he still considers human.
That's easy enough - propaganda / indoctrination / motivational video. So they can show the video to their converts / members to further radicalize them. Same reason ISIS recorded beheadings.
Fair enough.
They are a local street gang who has a cartel supplier in this analogy.
Nah.
This is the equivalent of El Chapo's son personally going out with some of his close clique to recruit deniable agents.
Very much an unofficial cartel franchise.

The initial plan could have been to scare Liz using the sniper rather than killing her, at least at first, in order to get footage of her lashing out with magic to defend herself. Unlike Harry and other full blown Wizards, a lesser practitioner such as Liz probably wouldn't ruin the camera when she started throwing around her scraps of power.
Possible. But unlikely.

Harassment to get someone to use magic is done face to face rather than through a scope; the person will just retreat into their shop and call 911. The sniper is what makes it look like a hit job, instead of just harassment.
Well, that and the fact that when they tried this with Eve, they tried to kill her.
 
They're mortals, and nonheroic at that. I doubt its DC9 unless mindcontrol is involved.
Their clause is clearly their intimacy - the observer was willing to try and commit suicide to prevent himself from being taken. I don't want to assume this is easy. We are, essentially, trying to deprogram an ISIS suicide bomber, and we are, objectively and subjectively, Great Satan. It's almost certain to be DC 9.
  1. All characters, even non-heroic mortals have intimacies, everyone can be go beyond themselves under the right circumstances

Hellscry Chakra allows you to read their aura as an emotional monitor.
Mortals, not creatures of darkness, so Hellscry Chakra is out.
 
Possible. But unlikely.

Harassment to get someone to use magic is done face to face rather than through a scope; the person will just retreat into their shop and call 911. The sniper is what makes it look like a hit job, instead of just harassment.
Well, that and the fact that when they tried this with Eve, they tried to kill her.
They might already have footage of her using magic, or her magic might not be combat magic so blowing off an arm then killing her, or letting her bleed out is something she cannot stop.
 
No harm done, but you did the rolls wrong:
Normal grapple rolls are Str + Brawl vs Str + Brawl.
Only here, MHM substitues with Int + Brawl/Occult/Melee, whichever is lowest.

That opposed roll would have been Molly(Intelligence 4 + Occult 5 + Occult Excellency 9 at DC6 - BSM 1) vs Camera Guy(Str + Brawl at DC6). Since you chose to use the results of the original roll, it would be Molly(7 successes) vs Camera Guy(??sux)
Molly would have won those rolloffs pretty handily.

*checks rules*
I swear grappling is the bane of every system I have ever played :o
 
[X] Reveal that they have been lied to and used, try to get through to them (Charisma+Empathy)
-[X] Preparatory intel gathering
--[X] Have Clippy run down their identities, and see if other Ants of God can be identified through their social media connections
--[X] Summon a cyberdevil into the observer's and sniper's cellphones if they have any to obtain all relevant information
--[X] Use their clothes as foci to learn what they were told by their White Court masters, and who was it that deceived them
-[X] Call dad and father Forthil to help
--[X] Brief them fully on the prisoners using the gathered information
-[X] Use BSM to lower the difficulty, ATB with willpower to read them
-[X] STUNT: "Be not afraid, *names obtained through data mining*" you say, as you enter the makeshift cell that the prisoners are kept under watch, lest they do harm - to others or themselves. Behind you father Forthil enters, in his habit, bible in hand, and behind him, the Knight of the Cross walks, the Sword of Love on his hip, and every inch a paladin of the Christ. As guards leave, closing the door behind them, you speak again: "You have been deceived and led astray, bewitched by those that would prey on humanity. Do not despair, for we are here, and we can help. "


Something like this? Obtain maximum information about who they are before starting deprogramming, enlist Michael's and Forthil's help. On "be not afraid" - Molly is clearly something very powerful, prisoners already know that, so we can't hide that and pretend to be something approachable. Thus, the only reasonable thing is to lean into it.
Be not afraid is way too on the nose. I know you like the biblical imagery, but some subtlety is needed.

For a religious guy that's going to hit "devil tempting Jesus on the mount" on all cylinders. We might have the dice to make it work, but it's still unnecessarily complicating things.

Also, American religious politics is somewhat more fractious than it can look from the outside at times. To put it mildly.

The sort of people who get drawn into little psycho militias like this have a tendency to have opinions about Catholics*. A number of Baptists for example don't consider them a legitimate form of Christianity at all, in so far as they acknowledge anyone outside of their specific denomination on the first place.

Father Forthill might not be a good character reference in the first place to this guy's line of thinking.
 
No, AP hell is eternal.
AP Hell is an external necessity of the Quest Format.

If there weren't always more things that we want or need to do than we can do, then the choice of actions becomes meaningless.
AP Hell, just like the research-backlog in those kind of quests, must be eternal.
Other quests don't have an Exalted that can go from 8 AP, to 32 AP with a single charm purchase. Especially with the ruling that clones retain passives upgrade charms. 5-10 times crafting speed, 1 don't subtract for key abilities, CCC -3DC. And for such knowledge skills that is amazing, put one on learning tech for example, and their 8 AP is equal to 4 of molly so around 2xp discount discount on average, enough to hit the max discount of half in a single turn for an ability at 2 already.
 
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Be not afraid is way too on the nose. I know you like the biblical imagery, but some subtlety is needed.

For a religious guy that's going to hit "devil tempting Jesus on the mount" on all cylinders. We might have the dice to make it work, but it's still unnecessarily complicating things.

Also, American religious politics is somewhat more fractious than it can look from the outside at times. To put it mildly.

The sort of people who get drawn into little psycho militias like this have a tendency to have opinions about Catholics*. A number of Baptists for example don't consider them a legitimate form of Christianity at all, in so far as they acknowledge anyone outside of their specific denomination on the first place.

Father Forthill might not be a good character reference in the first place to this guy's line of thinking.
That's true, but I am not sure what to open with. I am open to suggestions. I think some biblical references would make sense, if only to show that we are capable of reciting the Bible, and are not afraid to invoke the name of the Lord if needed.
 
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