Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Vito might not have been involved in this particular incident because Nemesis could have chosen to hastily withdrew all valuable assets from the area in the wake of Maeve's exorcism.
Possible but unlikely.

Nemesis might operate more cautiously, but it's not just gonna stop because of some risk . See the Fae in general and Winter Court in particular. Summer Lady Aurora's failure didn't stop it operating through Lea and going for Maeve. The discovery of the Leanansidhe's Nfection didn't stop it operating through Maeve and any other poor victims.

The loss of Lord Raith didn't stop it going for Vittorio Malvora. Nemesis is relentless that way.
 
It means that in some regards, America is a failed state. It asserts the monopoly, but doesn't quite enjoy it. It's also important that it's not monopoly on all violence. It's a monopoly on legitimate violence.
That latter part there? Its a tautology. The decision as to whether or not violence is legitimate is something decided purely through the application, or credible threat, of violence.

"Those who stand at the top determine what's wrong and what's right! Justice will prevail, you say? But of course it will! Whoever wins this war becomes justice!"
 
It means that in some regards, America is a failed state. It asserts the monopoly, but doesn't quite enjoy it. It's also important that it's not monopoly on all violence. It's a monopoly on legitimate violence.
This is a modern nationstate definition.
The supernatural nations are not modern nation states. And the setting does not operate by modern nationstate rules

It used to be customary for great nobles in a human nation to wage wars on their own cognizance, against fellow nobles and sometimes against foreign political entities. Even corporations got into the act, as with the East India Company.
 
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That latter part there? Its a tautology. The decision as to whether or not violence is legitimate is something decided purely through the application, or credible threat, of violence.

"Those who stand at the top determine what's wrong and what's right! Justice will prevail, you say? But of course it will! Whoever wins this war becomes justice!"
No, it's not. Now, please bear with me, since I am NOT a political scientist, but I understand the term legimtate as used here to mean that both the state apparatus and the subjects see it legitimate. Meaning that, on average, a citizen of the state would respond with "yeah, it was legitimate" when asked about it.
This is a modern nationstate definition.
The supernatural nations are not modern nation states.

It used to be customary for great nobles in a human nation to wage wars on their own cognizance, against fellow nobles and sometimes against foreign political entities. Even corporations got into the act, as with the East India Company.
What definition of a nationstate would you use then?
 
Boiling sea mastery? We probably need all the bonuses we can
Kind of obvious, but I guess it works.

[X] Plan Murder She Wrote
-[X] Use all applicable social excellencies
-[X] Activate BSM
-[X] Give a basic outline of the incident Molly encountered, but don't show her the body or give anything personally identifying up about Jackson.
—[X] Additionally, avoid giving up details on how we're getting information.
-[X] From that get into the plot we uncovered, and that a cabal of vampires are plotting a serial killing spree as a proof of concept for a greater purge of minor talents from the population.
-[X] Outline our plan to try using a connection higher up in the court to resolve this before it explodes. Include some details on the issues obvious organized mortal involvement could cause.
-[X] [Stunt] As she finishes sketching out the basic explanation, Molly meets Murphy's gaze. "Now this is the part where things get complicated" .
—[X] " The victim here is a member of a sort of self defense group. Not anything assertive, just people with a little bit of magic looking out for each other." A grimace crossed her face as she continues " People with just a little magic are nearly the bottom of a very literal food chain, and it can be hard for them at the best of times."
—[X] Something cold began to deep into her voice, tinged with that immovable resolve she reaches for when forced to take a life. " Which is why I joined."
—[X] "Most things that go bump in the night and eat minor talents alive are remarkably unwilling to follow me down a dark alley"
—[X] Sighing, Molly returns to a more normal tone "The guys doing this are a splinter group of the white court. Their politics can get … messy."
—[X] " I have an understanding with some of their leadership, which I'm planning to draw on first. If we're careful this whole thing can be rolled up cleanly, if not this could get bloody fast"
 
Generally, I know it when I see it.

But broadly a large political entity with a significant membership size, the ability to project force and impose its will, territorial control and a coherent political policy that isn't just the profit motive.
I'd put it down as an entity of significant size that has at least one place where it may project force where it does not answer to the authority of another power. Even if its purely profit driven, if a corporation could operate with impunity without having to maneuver around laws or the general 'don't make me come over there' capacity of a greater state I'd happily consider it a state unto itself. At that point you are playing Shadowrun.

The debate is a little like arguing if Pluto is a planet or not. Its a giant goddamn mass of ice and rock, that much is non-negotiable, but 'planet' is just a word a bunch of hairless apes got together and chose an arbitrarily determined definition for. These are just words, not features of reality.
 
On the nation state question there is a different between the white court, fairy courts, Yomi or red court and that is escalation dominance.

The white court is a not a nation state unlike the others because they are dependent on the tolerance and protection of nations that they live in. If everything goes balls to the wall escalation and the way and everything is dragged into the light the fairy courts, Yomi and red court will continue on. They will be hampered by the lack of secrecy but even the U.S. and other government will not want to push things. Yomi basically becomes another north Korea.

The white court on the other hand is flattened by artillery.
 
On the nation state question there is a different between the white court, fairy courts, Yomi or red court and that is escalation dominance.

The white court is a not a nation state unlike the others because they are dependent on the tolerance and protection of nations that they live in. If everything goes balls to the wall escalation and the way and everything is dragged into the light the fairy courts, Yomi and red court will continue on. They will be hampered by the lack of secrecy but even the U.S. and other government will not want to push things. Yomi basically becomes another north Korea.

The white court on the other hand is flattened by artillery.
a hostile white courts still a nightmare since there's no way they'd fight with conventional tactics they can drop in and out of the nevernever in areas with their affiliated emotions. Also its not like they don't use modern weapons either and I'm fairly sure they can pull off rituals of some kinds. Oh and can fuck with command structure with thralls and such.

Given none of that is unique to them just you know still a thing to think about.
 
a hostile white courts still a nightmare since there's no way they'd fight with conventional tactics they can drop in and out of the nevernever in areas with their affiliated emotions. Also its not like they don't use modern weapons either and I'm fairly sure they can pull off rituals of some kinds. Oh and can fuck with command structure with thralls and such.

Given none of that is unique to them just you know still a thing to think about.
Yes, but if they are widely known about I would expect them to be as destroyed as the black Court.
 
Yes, but if they are widely known about I would expect them to be as destroyed as the black Court.
Why? The reasons for the Black Court being destroyed were twofold: they had several easily exploitable weaknesses and in addition to humanity, several other supernatural powers helped to kick them together.

The White Court does not. They have few weaknesses (true love, true courage, and true hope(?)) which are rare, and like the faction focused on intrigue and diplo, they have allies who would come to their aid, both supernatural and mortal.
 
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Yes, but if they are widely known about I would expect them to be as destroyed as the black Court.
Doubt it.

Of all the Courts they are the most adept at blending and have few outright weaknesses besides their inability to reproduce as fast as other vampires. And you cant screen for them mindfucking your commanders. And they can travel the NeverNever

You might get a few initial successes but without major supernatural support, you lose the war.
 
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Why? The reasons for the Black Court being destroyed were twofold: they had several easily exploitable weaknesses and in addition to humanity, several other supernatural powers helped to kick them together.

The White Court does not. They have few weaknesses (true love, true courage, and true hope(?)) which are rare, and like the faction focused on intrigue and diplo, they have allies who would come to their aid, both supernatural and mortal.
And bullets a weakness the black Court doesn't share.
And you cant screen for them mindfucking your commanders.
Yes you can just have only happily married commanders. Which might be a pain to manage, but I expect that the brass would appreciate it.

Also they can go into the never-never at certain places, but they are no more at home there then humans are. Traveling the never-never isn't safe.
 
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Possible but unlikely.

Nemesis might operate more cautiously, but it's not just gonna stop because of some risk . See the Fae in general and Winter Court in particular. Summer Lady Aurora's failure didn't stop it operating through Lea and going for Maeve. The discovery of the Leanansidhe's Nfection didn't stop it operating through Maeve and any other poor victims.

The loss of Lord Raith didn't stop it going for Vittorio Malvora. Nemesis is relentless that way.
I wouldn't expect it to outright stop, but pulling back from an operation of questionable value in our immediate vicinity for a short time to reassess the situation wouldn't be unusual.
 
Yes, but if they are widely known about I would expect them to be as destroyed as the black Court.
You're kind of assuming victory by default here. The social game is where the white court eats, and by denying them that you're basically doing the same thing as declaring wizards would definitely lose X fight as long as it happens in an antimagic field.

First you have to learn about them, then identity them and their influence while they're actively screwing with you.

Also worth noting that they're already burrowed into the systems you're relying on to beat them.

I don't think they'd stomp the mortals entirely, but if you think that people would just come together and perfectly root them out, ignoring stuff like blackmail, bribery, favors, and other influence factors* all the while I've got a bridge to sell you.

There's a reason that the white court is respected as a peer by people who will literally eat you alive if you can't make them acknowledge your lines.

* especially in an environment of uncertainty about who specifically is a white court vamp.
 
And bullets a weakness the black Court doesn't share
We have seen Whampires with combat-time regen from shortrange shotgun fire.
They aren't Blampires or Rampires, but they are tougher than you presume.

Yes you can just have only happily married commanders. Which might be a pain to manage, but I expect that the brass would appreciate it.

Also they can go into the never-never at certain places, but they are no more at home there then humans are. Traveling the never-never isn't safe
1)True Love protects from Raiths.
Not Malvora or Skavis.

2)That only protects you from them trying to feed on you. They can whammy you just fine without it, as demonstrated by Dresden being vulnerable to Lara's allure even though he was protected by Susan's love.


3)Happily married couples still stray.
Justine demonstrated that it was possible for True Love's protection to be removed by sex with someone else, which was how she started having sex with Thomas again. Madeline Raith made it clear that it could also be removed by having a mortal rape the target first.

If a Whampire is really intent on eating your life force, and brings minions, you're doomed.


4)Strategic military or political acumen doesnt necessarily coincide with marital fidelity.
Look at all the US presidents who were known repeated philanderers. Look at France.


5)They can enter the Never Never and you can't follow. That gives them unmatched strategic mobility against an enemy limited to the Tellurian
 
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And bullets a weakness the black Court doesn't share.
They have regeneration, of course less strong than the Black Court, so you would need several high caliber weapons to take a Whampire down. That is, of course, as long as they stand in the open until they die and don't use their superhuman physical abilities to dodge or flee, manipulation of lust, fear and horror, to turn soldiers against themselves, magic rituals, support of other supernaturals like summoned demons etc.

Yes you can just have only happily married commanders. Which might be a pain to manage, but I expect that the brass would appreciate it.
Considering the weakness you're mentioning is "true love" and not "a good relationship", which is explicitly a rare trait too, it's the weakness of only a third of the Wampires, leaving the other two families free to do as they please, and that just doesn't let the Wampires that are affected feed or directly touch the users (that I know of), leaving several avenues of how to deal with them, for example, controlling someone else and killing those commands you mentioned.

Also they can go into the never-never at certain places, but they are no more at home there then humans are. Traveling the never-never isn't safe.
They can make deals with those who control the passages that they will use like the White Council will with Winter and while NeverNever is dangerous for long periods of time, it would be much less to them than the average human or wizard, and they wouldn't need to spend much time. time just get in and out at some point near a base or large groups of soldiers and then play gleeful chaos with their minds.

Any "simple" plan that involves the destruction of a great supernatural power, and the White Court is unquestionably one, no matter what personal opinions some of us seem to have of underestimating supernatural beings and nations, is doomed to fail for if they were that easy of being defeated they would not have reached the status they are, they would have been dealt with much sooner.
 
And bullets a weakness the black Court doesn't share.

Yes you can just have only happily married commanders. Which might be a pain to manage, but I expect that the brass would appreciate it.

Also they can go into the never-never at certain places, but they are no more at home there then humans are. Traveling the never-never isn't safe.
white court has multiple types so happily married only protects against one and only defends against touch. So not that great a defense.
 
white court has multiple types so happily married only protects against one and only defends against touch. So not that great a defense.
True Love, a rare trait, not Happily/ Good Marriage, which ironically is also a rare trait just less than the first one which does not confer any protection, Justine was not married to Thomas nor Dresden to Susan and both have true love. One has nothing to do with the other.
 
Good thing that there is an easy way to test for it. Have them shake hands with someone happily married and check for burns.
That's a test for one type, and true love isn't that common. Happily married isn't the bar, and measuring if it's enough is complicated if you're not a wizard.

Further, we've talked extensively about the power of being good at social. White vamps don't need to bend your mind to manipulate people.

They also regularly do this at scale, which matters when you're trying to organize new and complicated efforts to test people.
 
True Love, a rare trait, not Happily/ Good Marriage, which ironically is also a rare trait just less than the first one which does not confer any protection, Justine was not married to Thomas nor Dresden to Susan and both have true love. One has nothing to do with the other.
Not just that.
Take a sampling of the last four decades of American presidency.

Biden has no known affairs but is a widower on his second wife. Trump was flagrantly unfaithful. Obama and W have no known affairs. Clinton was a known philanderer. HW Bush carried on an affair while in office that made his wife suicidal. Reagan divorced his first wife and there are unsubstantiated rumors. How many of them would qualify for True Love's protection against getting eaten? Maybe half at best.

And that's just elected politicians.
We haven't even touched unelected technocrats, civil servants and appointed officials. Or soldiers.

You can't even reliably protect against Raiths.
Same for WOD vampires, shotgun blasts are one of the best modern weapons against them.
That's the thing.
We saw Madrigal get blasted in the ankles and knees with a shotgun at less than six feet range. He was running minutes later.

A well fed Whampire can do some scaryass shit for someone who looks completely human on close inspection.
 
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