You are basically introducing a cop to the concept of supernatural mob killings yes... while presenting the body in your trunk. I have to say that if you had not spent all that time building up trust with Murphy this would not even be an option, but you did put in the work so it's now... something you can do for better or for worse. Keep in mind though her intimacies are likely to have something to do with protecting and serving. She's serious enough about that she got to use a Sword in canon.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
You are basically introducing a cop to the concept of supernatural mob killings yes... while presenting the body in your trunk. I have to say that if you had not spent all that time building up trust with Murphy this would not even be an option, but you did put in the work so it's now... something you can do for better or for worse. Keep in mind though her intimacies are likely to have something to do with protecting and serving. She's serious enough about that she got to use a Sword in canon.
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
There are only two options here: Either we look like she called us in for this project as a troubleshooter or else we're tearing up the treaty and going to town on the White Court for our own reasons. The latter... we don't want that. We need this vampire, oh-the-irony, to open the door and invite us in.
But, yeah, there will be something owed even if it isn't a formalized favor like with Mab. We'll leave this woman uncontested and we'll do it in a way that leaves us respectable in the eyes of her followers. Considering what we are trying to build from White Court recruits, among others, that alone will pay dividends.
Vamps generally aren't healthy for the world but, if they are going to exist, its infinitely better for them to be internally well regulated.
Rightfully so. We just need to remember that for the duration of this event we've shifted literary genre.
The real issue here is that the Court uses a lot of regular humans. More than the Reds by far, and most fairly mentally attacked. We need to not kill humans and that will be tough... though, honestly, I'm invested in only killing the ringleaders even amongst the vamps if possible. We've proven that even supposed monsters can be worthy of life.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Good thing all of this is actually in service of us having the same goal.
Ok, so, this is important, and more perilous than I thought.
[X] Mention that you have a connection to the highest levels of the White Court and your plan to reach out to Lara so that she can deal with the rogue elements
-[X] Empathy, etiquette excellencies as needed
-[X] Boiling sea mastery
-[X] Explain how mortal involvement in such affairs is considered a "nuclear option" and is likely to produce extreme reaction, aimed both at mortals to preserve the masquerade, and at the parties that are thought to bring mortals in
-[X] Talk to her about possible options and at least minimizing the collateral and the amount of victims produced.
Hmm... We could use Greene's files to actually imprison some of the whamps involved, I guess.
1)I rather doubt it.
She has led SI since before the events of Storm Front, meaning six years plus. Her father before his suicide ran proto-SI. Yet she has no active informants in the local supernatural community.
I don't think she even knows any besides the Alphas and Carpenters.
Consider what that says about the willingness of magic people to talk to law enforcement. It wasn't until after Dresden died that people were willing to talk to her freely.
2)That defense relies on the unwillingness of the supernatural to draw attention to themselves; it's an implicit threat that exposure will cost them more than its worth.
If you have already exposed the supernatural to the mortal, exposure loses its power as a deterrent. If the supernatural is willing or powerful enough to slaughter or mindwhammy the cops, same issue.
Not to mention all the times when a supernatural decides to fuck secrecy, like when River Shoulders threw a car into the wall of a university student dorm before proceeding to brawl with a group of ghouls. Or the flying Chinese shen demon chasing Dresden's Beetle while throwing fireballs. Or Big Brother Gruff attacking Dresden at the Chicago train station openly. Or when the Eebs hit the Chicago FBI offices with several bloodpacks of vampires and an Ick demon.
Nah.
Most people aren't Dresden. For lesser talents the prospects of willingly meeting a Whampire several hours after another one tried to kill you is more than a little disconcerting. And Jackson's eyewitness testimony doesn't add anything when we have the body of the perp here.
Besides.
Lara can confirm most of this from her end just by identifying the vampires body and who he has been working for and associating with.
We dont need to hold her hand.
Especially given that the option for some of these guys is a kinetic encounter with Molly. A formal duel challenge under the Accords would be essentially a death sentence.
We are just fulfilling our promise; we dont expect her to do anything. Besides maybe keep an eye out for a pattern of untimely deaths/disappearances among people who fit the general profile of members of the magical community.
Cauldron is only a fraction of those in the Chicago area after all. If theyd been going after non-Cauldronites, we wouldn't know unless we looked.
Remember, Murphy is a cop.
Judging by the other members of SI, and FBI Agent Tilly's reaction to her, a competent cop, maybe even a great cop.
But this isnt law enforcement, this is international politics and espionage. Murphy doesn't have the legal powers to assert jurisdiction, and isn't really qualified to be swimming in these waters yet; she's gotten her toes wet before, but that was with Dresden present, and this is deep water.
It's not that she hasnt overlooked extrajudicial killings before; see Blood Rites, where she saw Lord Raith murder Trixie whatsherface the porn star. But Molly doesn't know that.
I don't agree. Neither side involved rises to the level for a nation state. White Court is, basically, a mafia family with superpowers. Minor practitioners are USA citizens. Winter and Summer courts are nations. Yomi hells are nations, red Court can be argued to be a nation. White Court very much isn't. It's an organized crime ring. A very entrenched one with huge resources, but not a nation.
Murphy might not have experience or training to handle organized crime on this level, and should recognize this.
The White Court is... a lot more powerful than it seems. I mean sure it does not have the sheer military power of the Reds and certainly not White or Summer, but it is worth keeping in mind what you found on Greene's files, blackmail, leverage, bribery. They are the ones with the most power in North America and Western Europe. If Murphy makes too many moves against them they will bury her from above, or try to at least. Molly can only guess at how much the Library of Congress can protect her from things like that.
- Location
- Germany
It's a weird case.
They have a lot of theoretical power, but their ability to stop our sword from reaching Lara's neck (or that of any of their Elders) is much more limited than all that vast amount of power might imply.
Edit: They have soft power, but they lack the supernatural punch of a Fey Court or Yama Hell, or even of the other Vampire Courts.
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Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
The White Court is... kinda the illuminati. They are going to have their fingers in every goddamn pie, have at least the ear of a broad swath of movers-and-shakers within a fair few first world nations. I'd outright assume that Epstein was a White Court in this continuity and his entire guest list over the decades was compromised by him. Politicians, CEOs and billionaires, probably Murphy's bosses on a couple levels. Its what I would build if I was an immortal, immoral incubus who has been collecting power since before the invention of feudalism.
I'm pretty sure they could get the American government to outright declare a war if they were willing to burn political capital. The conspiracy theorist in me is shouting that the Iran-Contra affair was a move against Red Court assets in Nicaragua though that is purely tinfoil hat time on my part. Its fun assuming that real world events have supernatural reasons for playing out.
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- Location
- washington
I'm gonna reiterate not in power but in size even the summer and winter court are small nations in size.
Goofed myself here I guess.
I think my initial write in is still a good direction here. Maybe with some more explicit discussion of the politics involved.
I don't think it is, specifically because the Ordo isn't a book club, at its core it's a mutual defense pact.
Attacking people we're obligated to defend, with lethal force if necessary, is unambiguously interfering with our interests.
Barely, and it's not super relevant.
Unless the point is to use her ignorance as a rhetorical tool bringing up the Library is a red herring that could backfire if she decides she should phone home for help.
The supernatural is in a weird place. As far as they're concerned the mortal nations are the illegitimate ones; the white court is a crime family the same way the Hapsburgs were.
They function as a nation in their own context, are treated that way by their peer group, and will react with that in mind when doing things collectively. We can quibble over who counts as a real nation if we want, but our conclusion won't change their behavior.
[x] Yog
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COMMENTARY
Liam huh.
So shes married, and to a person of Irish descent; black people dont usually use Irish names. The dentistry practice being in the same building she lives in is fairly atypical for most 21st century US clinical practices, but fiction.
So yeah. This is White Night popping off.
Apparently we caught the Chicago portion of this very early. Good.
Interesting points:
Nine people scryed.
7 of whom we can identify, six of whom are Skavis or Skavis-affiliated.
Skavis Heir is detected. Madrigal Raith is detected. But no Vito Malvora.
That means either a butterfly, which is unlikely since Madrigal has been associating with the Malvora before Molly Exalted, to the point of going from feeding on lust to fear. Or we didnt ask the right question to pick him up. And hes the Black Council contact with an Outsider in his skull.
It should occur to Molly that if this is a test run for a genocide plan, they have to have tested it elsewhere with fewer defence resources before trying to do it in Chicago, which has CPD SI, a Knight of the Cross and a wizard/regional commander of the White Council in residence.
So if she actually looks, we're going to find additional deaths in other cities. In canon, the known death toll prior to coming to Chicago was around ~36. IIRC.
Worth noting that Murphy has met Lara.
Has been to the Raith Estate. Was present for the events that enabled Lara to overthrow her father.
Molly doesnt know this IC though.
Still working.
But I am away from home for the next week and largely posting from the phone.
Which is also why I'm not making any plan votes.
Yes it is.
Mab certainly thinks so, as does the rest of the setting. Don't mistake a preference for soft power to represent no power.
Easiest is not necessarily easy.
Essentially this.
This was what happened in canon after all; when Dresden and Ramirez showed up at a White Court meeting, challenged Vittorio and Madrigal then beat them like a drum in front of the White Court's assembled nobility, the impression of the other White Council bigwigs, and of Dresden himself, was that Lara was using them to counter political threats to her power.
Not all that new.
Murphy knew that Bianca St Claire was a Red Court vampire as of Storm Front. She was privy to the actions of the rogue FBI team in Fool Moon with regards to the serial murders, and the subsequent official cover-up. She was Dresden's backup of choice when they took out Mavra's scourge in that homeless shelter, including IIRC a bunch of Renfields. In Blood Rites, she was witness to Lord Raith killing Trixie Vixen by breaking her neck and tossing her into the Deeps, personally killed one of Lord Raiths human bodyguards with a martial arts kick to the neck, saw Madge Shelly killed by an Outsider after bodging a magic ritual, and saw Lara Raith begin her successful coup against her father.
She's been involved in, or turned a blind eye to a bunch of extrajudicial killings before.
It's just done by people she trusts, whose judgement she trusts, or she's been convinced that the alternative is worse.
How many divisions does the Pope have?
Does it make Vatican City any less a nationstate with immense amounts of soft power? Is Qatar any less a nationstate with significant influence for only having 300k citizens?
The White Court spans North America and Western Europe that I know of, with a small presence in parts of South America. No idea of Eastern Europe or Africa; they may or may not have a presence there.
They are very much a nationstate, and a powerful one at that. They may not be a military superpower, but are very much an economic, political and intelligence power. Treating them like mafia will leave you feeling very sore.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
By that standard Google is a nation state.
That is just the thing. Vatican City is in fact a nation state. Yes they also have a lot of soft power as well, but the white court is not. No more then the Republicans, democrats or Google are nation states. And it makes sense to hold them to similar standards.
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Epstein wouldn't have been a White Council vampire in this setting; too high profile, and his family was too poor and his records too hard to fake. Hed have been a White Court thrall/minion fronting the op, with a handler somewhat lower profile, and who could schmooze less obviously, who was using him as a junior partner.
Ghislaine Maxwell?
Socialite, daughter of a very rich man, whose family all allegedly died in Auschwitz during WW2?Now she'd have been White Court vampire, and his handler. And her father Robert Maxwell would also have been a Whampire who adopted the identity of people killed in WW2 before emigrating to Britain, and who faked his death.
/conspiracy things
Google isn't.
It has power and access to intelligence, it lacks territorial control, consistent policy or loyalty.
Disney has a much better claim to that title.
On all counts.
If we go for political science definition, White Court isn't a state because they lack the monopoly of violence. Yes, Lara Raith can enforce her will over the members of White Court through the use of violence. But the use of violence by members of White Court against other members of the Court and against other people as well is also legitimate. In this sense, White Court isn't a state. It's a powerful organization, but it's much closer to a mafia clan, or a trans-national corporation.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
The white court lacks the territory control, consistent policy and loyalty. Unless you can list a place where they rule openly.
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
In this setting... that means that America isn't a state. It sure as fuck doesn't possess a monopoly of violence within its theoretical borders. It may think its a state but, no, in this case it would be incorrect.
Monopoly of violence is a pretty recent development for modern nation states IRL. And it's certainly not uniform; large swathes of Italy have govt control disputed by the Ndrangheta and similar groups. Mexico is no less a state despite the action of narco cartels IRL. Ditto 1990s Colombia, and several African countries have rebel groups exerting power over regions.
Dresdenverse Mexico is still regarded as a state despite the Red Court essentially operating with impunity. Dresdenverse America does not have monopoly of force inside its own borders even.
Theres a major, transnational war going on between multiple supernatural powers with repeated WMD use and noone on the mortal human side knows it.
They certainly have all three.
The Outsiders would not devote their efforts to infiltrating them otherwise. The svartalfar wouldnt consider them worthy of diplomatic recognition. Lara would not be able to sustain deployed military forces in North America during the Fomor War.
The books are zoom focused on Chicago, so we dont see much of the rest of the setting
But thats not the same thing as their not being there.
[X] Plan Murder She Wrote
-[X] Use all applicable social excellencies
-[X] Give a basic outline of the incident Molly encountered, but don't show her the body or give anything personally identifying up about Jackson.
—[X] Additionally, avoid giving up details on how we're getting information.
-[X] From that get into the plot we uncovered, and that a cabal of vampires are plotting a serial killing spree as a proof of concept for a greater purge of minor talents from the population.
-[X] Outline our plan to try using a connection higher up in the court to resolve this before it explodes. Include some details on the issues obvious organized mortal involvement could cause.
-[X] [Stunt] As she finishes sketching out the basic explanation, Molly meets Murphy's gaze. "Now this is the part where things get complicated" .
—[X] " The victim here is a member of a sort of self defense group. Not anything assertive, just people with a little bit of magic looking out for each other." A grimace crossed her face as she continues " People with just a little magic are nearly the bottom of a very literal food chain, and it can be hard for them at the best of times."
—[X] Something cold began to deep into her voice, tinged with that immovable resolve she reaches for when forced to take a life. " Which is why I joined."
—[X] "Most things that go bump in the night and eat minor talents alive are remarkably unwilling to follow me down a dark alley"
—[X] Sighing, Molly returns to a more normal tone "The guys doing this are a splinter group of the white court. Their politics can get … messy."
—[X] " I have an understanding with some of their leadership, which I'm planning to draw on first. If we're careful this whole thing can be rolled up cleanly, if not this could get bloody fast"
Something like this maybe?
-[X] Use all applicable social excellencies
-[X] Give a basic outline of the incident Molly encountered, but don't show her the body or give anything personally identifying up about Jackson.
—[X] Additionally, avoid giving up details on how we're getting information.
-[X] From that get into the plot we uncovered, and that a cabal of vampires are plotting a serial killing spree as a proof of concept for a greater purge of minor talents from the population.
-[X] Outline our plan to try using a connection higher up in the court to resolve this before it explodes. Include some details on the issues obvious organized mortal involvement could cause.
-[X] [Stunt] As she finishes sketching out the basic explanation, Molly meets Murphy's gaze. "Now this is the part where things get complicated" .
—[X] " The victim here is a member of a sort of self defense group. Not anything assertive, just people with a little bit of magic looking out for each other." A grimace crossed her face as she continues " People with just a little magic are nearly the bottom of a very literal food chain, and it can be hard for them at the best of times."
—[X] Something cold began to deep into her voice, tinged with that immovable resolve she reaches for when forced to take a life. " Which is why I joined."
—[X] "Most things that go bump in the night and eat minor talents alive are remarkably unwilling to follow me down a dark alley"
—[X] Sighing, Molly returns to a more normal tone "The guys doing this are a splinter group of the white court. Their politics can get … messy."
—[X] " I have an understanding with some of their leadership, which I'm planning to draw on first. If we're careful this whole thing can be rolled up cleanly, if not this could get bloody fast"
Something like this maybe?
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Vito might not have been involved in this particular incident because Nemesis could have chosen to hastily withdrew all valuable assets from the area in the wake of Maeve's exorcism.
It means that in some regards, America is a failed state. It asserts the monopoly, but doesn't quite enjoy it. It's also important that it's not monopoly on all violence. It's a monopoly on legitimate violence.
Boiling sea mastery? We probably need all the bonuses we can.
- Location
- Germany
[X] BronzeTongue
Which makes sense.
The Winter Court for example is definitly a feudal nation/queendom, but it does not have any kind of monopoly of violence.
The Courtiers can start their own feuds, little conquests and such, with a relative lot of freedom, as long as they don't go directly against the interests of the ruling Triad.
That is very much feudal/clannish structure, not a modern nationstate, but it doesn't make Winter less dangerous.
Similarly The White Court is not really a nationstate with a monopoly on violence or anything like that, but it is a relativly powerful political entity that doesn't consider itself lesser compared to a nationstate.
I guess nationstates in general are a relativly modern concept and the supernatural world does not quite fit on it.
Which makes sense.
The Winter Court for example is definitly a feudal nation/queendom, but it does not have any kind of monopoly of violence.
The Courtiers can start their own feuds, little conquests and such, with a relative lot of freedom, as long as they don't go directly against the interests of the ruling Triad.
That is very much feudal/clannish structure, not a modern nationstate, but it doesn't make Winter less dangerous.
Similarly The White Court is not really a nationstate with a monopoly on violence or anything like that, but it is a relativly powerful political entity that doesn't consider itself lesser compared to a nationstate.