Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Just because we aren't getting good vibes doesn't mean we have the right to just look into a random muggle's deepest secrets.
This is not a vampire we are keeping in a highschool, or Nemesis, it's just a dude.
Eh, he's a consistently shitty person, to say the least. Like. Not... full blown monster but people are complicated and have many many factors. And many of his factors are just incredibly vile.

I'd prefer to not look because the results are going to be:
1. icky, but we don't act, or,
2. icky, and we feel compelled to act

Both cases are icky, and one is work and complications and we'll have to consider if whatever it is something that we have to tell Rosie about and... ugh.
So for me it's not to do with privacy [cuz' he's very shitty, so fuck him[1]] or a consideration about if us knowing this may help prevent future suffering but rather a wilful ignorance: I don't think learning his greatest shame is going to be useful but it might be annoying.

[1]we're playing as an individual making a one-off choice here, not as a system/organisation setting policy, which is why my reasoning isn't motivated by his rights.
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[X] This is about as good as it is going to get, take Rosie out for a coffee so she does not have to deal with this at least for the rest of today
-[X] Don't NWS Jared


I'd kinda like to throw a line reassuring Mrs Wilson on the way out, but between choosing to have screen time showing that or screentime where Molly and Rosie hang out, I'd much prefer the latter, same for not wanting to spend screen/game time on Jared's bullshit.
 
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[X] This is about as good as it is going to get, take Rosie out for a coffee so she does not have to deal with this at least for the rest of today
 
Just because we aren't getting good vibes doesn't mean we have the right to just look into a random muggle's deepest secrets.
This is not a vampire we are keeping in a highschool, or Nemesis, it's just a dude.
While he is (almost guaranteed to be) a muggle, his evil might be no less for it. So far he's an almost caricature image of a sleazy salesman. We know that one of his associates at least tried to molest Rosie. We know he's attracted to us (which, ok, exalted with makeup, even at Appearance 2, he'd have to be dead not to be). We know he's controlling, close-minded, and almost certainly espouses "f*ck you, got mine" principles. I want to know if we need to either get Rosie's mother and brother out of the house, tip cops off, or have one of our minions eat him.

Even if we don't care about Rosie's mother, which is, ok, more than fair, there's Rosie's brother to consider. He, at least, is an innocent. And so we should look. It would take us literal moments. And even if he's a member of cannibalistic pedophile ring? It would take a lazy afternoon to handle.
 
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While he is (almost guaranteed to be) a muggle, his evil might be no less for it. So far he's an almost caricature image of a sleazy salesman. We know that one of his associates at least tried to molest Rosie. We know he's attracted to us (which, ok, exalted with makeup, even at Appearance 2, he'd have to be dead not to be). We know he's controlling, close-minded, and almost certainly espouses "f*ck you, got mine" principles. I want to know if we need to either get Rosie's mother and brother out of the house, tip cops off, or have one of our minions eat him.

Even if we don't care about Rosie's mother, which is, ok, more than fair, there's Rosie's brother to consider. He, at least, is an innocent. And so we should look. It would take us literal moments. And even if he's a member of cannibalistic pedophile ring? It would take a lazy afternoon to handle.
Do we have good reason to seriously suspect him of anything bad, anything that would justify our intervention?

If not, then we shouldn't be meddling with this just because we can.
 
Any competent investigation would still reveal that we are a known associate of Thomas Raith, that we visit the site of CS, and that we do enjoy the benefits of CS. We might not be on paper, but the most probable explanation is that the reason for that is because we are underage. Incidentally, after we are 18, we should appear on paper, at least in my opinion
The problem here is that you're inviting an investigation we don't actually need to deal with and then assuming people will react the way you want them to.

Especially since the report coming back with evidence contradicting the paperwork doesn't end in the conclusion "well alright then, that's a claim confirmed" it comes with suspicion and scrutiny to manage.

I disagree with the idea of formally signing on. There's no benefit to it. We want the money, getting acknowledgment doesn't spend and does generate an irregularity that could cause problems.

Sure we could probably deal with it, but that's like refusing to use lids because you can just clean up any spills. We have better things to do than mop the floors.

The goals are as follows:
1) Establish a narrative of why Molly is rich which is as close to true as possible, and would stand up to scrutiny.
2) Shift the narrative about Molly. Right now she's a drug-addict (or a drug dealer) black sheep of Carpenter's family, and bad influence on Rosie. I am, frankly, surprised we are allowed to interact. I want to shift the narrative to where interaction with us is, if not encouraged, than at least treated as an opportunity / something neutral.
1) Standing up to scrutiny and resulting in a useful conclusion under examination are different things. Concluding that she's rich, but that something entirely nonsensical and suspicious is tied up in it is not a useful conclusion.

Presenting ourselves as a newly made mafia capo for example would also imply significant money and power, but wouldn't make them particularly enthusiastic about taking our help. Not that what you're doing is that bad, but it illustrates the point.


2) That narrative is bad, but that doesn't mean every possible replacement is equally good and useful.

Honest question - what are we lying about? The only lie I can see is the one mentioned in discussion - the one where Thomas invested into the business (he didn't need to, he works for us for magical benefits). Otherwise, the story of "we have developed a new and innovative way of making synthetic diamonds, and are making and selling them" is entirely true.

On running tech demos - that's only if they ask, one time, and as a mix between proof and a bribe.
We're lying about developing a new way to make diamonds. Specifically in that we have some technology that does the job.

We have a charm for it, but we can't teach, build it, explain it, or develop new things from it. We lack the basic understanding of the principles a mundane group would need to match our capabilities.

This means that there a multiple aspects of the business and our decisions that will make no sense to an external observer.

Things like the lack of IP protection, the inability to sell or license the process, a production rate that varies with our time and income needs independent of apparent infrastructure changes, stuff like that.

If we got a 10 billion dollar buy out offer tomorrow we'd have to turn it down.

Chicago Synthetics doesn't act like any kind of normal technology company because it isn't, and our claims being literally correct doesn't really matter when everything around that is clearly off.

We're not operating in a court room where being demonstrably correct on a technicality means you win. If you act suspiciously people will scrutinize you at minimum.
The issue I have with your plan is that long-term it requires more background work and explanations. As mentioned previously, we have way too much money, and we are way too open and free with using said money to go for a low stakes easily believable explanation
More background work doesn't equate to a significant amount itself.

We don't owe them an itemized summary of our expenses or anything. All we needed to do was make the parts they see look like normal quality stuff and avoid showing them things that make look like there's cash going into nonessentials.



Moot point with the vote closed though.
Chicago Synthetics is a one hundred percent US capitalized
Think it would make him feel better or worse if he knew that we technically rely heavily on illegal cyber devil immigrants to do any job we don't feel like doing ourselves? :V
 
Do we have good reason to seriously suspect him of anything bad, anything that would justify our intervention?

If not, then we shouldn't be meddling with this just because we can.
So far the worst thing we could pin on him would be covering child (Rosie's) molestation by one of his associates. We have a number of red flags that make me want to check. Note that I haven't actually proposed doing anything to him (yet). I only proposed checking.
We have a charm for it, but we can't teach, build it, explain it, or develop new things from it. We lack the basic understanding of the principles a mundane group would need to match our capabilities.
We could, in fact, build a machine to build diamonds. And it would most likely outcompete commercially available stuff. It just wouldn't be as effective as what we do.

Think it would make him feel better or worse if he knew that we technically rely heavily on illegal cyber devil immigrants to do any job we don't feel like doing ourselves? :V
On one hand, demons. On the other, slave labor. It would be a tough decision.
 
Presenting ourselves as a newly made mafia capo for example would also imply significant money and power, but wouldn't make them particularly enthusiastic about taking our help. Not that what you're doing is that bad, but it illustrates the point.

For one: I am not sure this guy wouldn't still like us if we had presented ourselves as a newly made mafia capo.

For two: False dichotomy, the reason why newly minted capo is bad has nothing to do with money anyway, and thus isn't a good comparaison of us presenting ourselves as owning CS.

We're lying about developing a new way to make diamonds. Specifically in that we have some technology that does the job.

We are not? We are saying we have a method to do so, nothing more, nothing less, and we do have said method.

But also:
We could, in fact, build a machine to build diamonds. And it would most likely outcompete commercially available stuff. It just wouldn't be as effective as what we do.

That, we can make the tools, so we have the technology.
 
We could, in fact, build a machine to build diamonds. And it would most likely outcompete commercially available stuff. It just wouldn't be as effective as what we do
No we can't. Molly has science zero, computer zero, and technology two, which puts her at high school or lower competency for designing novel industrial equipment.

We're cheating using TTC as a black box because technically the equipment is a sort of tool and diamonds themselves aren't complicated enough as a substance to make assembling them fall outside of craft if you've already got something to handle the fiddly bits.

We can't make a diamond machine just because TTC can any more than we could make a laser rifle because it can make a laser welder.

For one: I am not sure this guy wouldn't still like us if we had presented ourselves as a newly made mafia capo.

For two: False dichotomy, the reason why newly minted capo is bad has nothing to do with money anyway, and thus isn't a good comparaison of us presenting ourselves as owning CS
No it isn't. As I stated directly in that post the point wasn't to be a severity comparison, it was to illustrate that being verifiable isn't the same as illiciting a useful reaction.

Something that appears to actually be very relevant. You yourself just pointed out that Jared seems to be thinking about how to exploit this situation despite a much looser connection, which is one of the possibilities I directly highlighted as a problem with this approach.

We've caused ourselves some new issues here and fixing them will incidentally solve our original problem. That doesn't make this a particularly effective solution to the original issue.

It took one chapter for some of my predictions to start cropping up and we didn't even go with as extreme an option as Yog originally proposed. I'm not sure why you're still so skeptical.
 
Naked Wicked Souls tells us the target's greatest shame, right?

That has plenty of potential for information gathering, but it also seems to cast too wide a net, especially among muggles who aren't so easily defined by their inherent nature.

Rosie's stepfather could be molesting his son while stealing from a church charity for cancer-stricken orphans and slowly poisoning his wife with that poison, but if his greatest shame was peeing his pants on stage during his 3rd grade talent show, NWS is going to dredge up his childhood need for diapers.

I'm not saying we shouldn't use NWS, just that I don't think it's necessarily going to be all that helpful much of the time.
 
Goldfish uses hyperbole to communicate the shape of where he is coming from, and I agree with his reasoning/perspective, but I want to express it in a more grounded hypothetical:

'This one time, a competitor managed to use a clever trick to get one over on me in a business deal that I should have seen coming. I totally dropped the ball that day' is probably going to closer to what we'd see if we use NWS as opposed something like 'I downplayed and argued against my stepdaughter saying that one of my golfing buddies wanted to have sex with her'.

It only shows what he's 'most ashamed of', not 'worst thing he's done,' regardless of whatever framework we'd choose to measure 'worst' by.
 
Naked Wicked Souls tells us the target's greatest shame, right?

That has plenty of potential for information gathering, but it also seems to cast too wide a net, especially among muggles who aren't so easily defined by their inherent nature.

Rosie's stepfather could be molesting his son while stealing from a church charity for cancer-stricken orphans and slowly poisoning his wife with that poison, but if his greatest shame was peeing his pants on stage during his 3rd grade talent show, NWS is going to dredge up his childhood need for diapers.

I'm not saying we shouldn't use NWS, just that I don't think it's necessarily going to be all that helpful much of the time.
Goldfish uses hyperbole to communicate the shape of where he is coming from, and I agree with his reasoning/perspective, but I want to express it in a more grounded hypothetical:

'This one time, a competitor managed to use a clever trick to get one over on me in a business deal that I should have seen coming. I totally dropped the ball that day' is probably going to closer to what we'd see if we use NWS as opposed something like 'I downplayed and argued against my stepdaughter saying that one of my golfing buddies wanted to have sex with her'.

It only shows what he's 'most ashamed of', not 'worst thing he's done,' regardless of whatever framework we'd choose to measure 'worst' by.
Yes, and that would tell us a lot, actually. We know for a fact that he knows that his associate molested Rosie. If that isn't his greatest shame, and it is not something more horrific, we learn about his character. The idea that you suggest paint a picture of a clinic sociopath. One who genuinely feels no guilt about stuff he's doing. That's possible, but unlikely. And if it is, all the more reason to get everyone out of the situation.
No we can't. Molly has science zero, computer zero, and technology two, which puts her at high school or lower competency for designing novel industrial equipment.

We're cheating using TTC as a black box because technically the equipment is a sort of tool and diamonds themselves aren't complicated enough as a substance to make assembling them fall outside of craft if you've already got something to handle the fiddly bits.

We can't make a diamond machine just because TTC can any more than we could make a laser rifle because it can make a laser welder.
Molly is perfectly capable of making such a device. As a person who actually built something like that (no, it didn't work, but I know where I went wrong, and I just don't have time to redo), building a car is far, far more complex than building a PECVD device.
It took one chapter for some of my predictions to start cropping up and we didn't even go with as extreme an option as Yog originally proposed. I'm not sure why you're still so skeptical.
What would that be? So far as I can tell, we sold them on the issue perfectly, at least an especially the stepfather, who seems to have the mother cowed. As long as Rosie is actually employed, gets a paycheck and medical insurance, the next hurdle would be when our apartment turns out to be a manor with an underground bunker and concealable anti-air turrets.
 
Something that appears to actually be very relevant. You yourself just pointed out that Jared seems to be thinking about how to exploit this situation despite a much looser connection, which is one of the possibilities I directly highlighted as a problem with this approach.

We've caused ourselves some new issues here and fixing them will incidentally solve our original problem. That doesn't make this a particularly effective solution to the original issue.

It took one chapter for some of my predictions to start cropping up and we didn't even go with as extreme an option as Yog originally proposed. I'm not sure why you're still so skeptical.

Do you have any proofs that we wouldn't have even more problems in the alternative cases?

The original issue was *will the parents believe we do have the money to give a future to their daughter*, that absolutely has been handled, and in fact I am not even sure Jared will search more as Uju feared.

The inheritance proposition would have lead to questions of sustainability, so was not ideal and wouldn't have been as convincing.

Your proposition wouldn't have hidden that well that we're rich, not after they begin to search a little since it relies on things that aren't as sure as our current money, it still had the ghost of the hospital and nannies hanging. I still think it would have also encountered more opposition from the parents than we have now and wouldn't have changed the fact that Jared seems like a sleazy guy so we would have the exact same problem you claim was created here.
 
Molly is perfectly capable of making such a device. As a person who actually built something like that (no, it didn't work, but I know where I went wrong, and I just don't have time to redo), building a car is far, far more complex than building a PECVD device.
Our diamond-machine only works because we cheat for infinite energy.
That was pretty explicit.

So unless we build a nuclear reactor next to it, no normal version of the device can function.
 
Our diamond-machine only works because we cheat for infinite energy.
That was pretty explicit.

So unless we build a nuclear reactor next to it, no normal version of the device can function.

Correct, while you could with a high enough technology roll make a diamond press you could not make one that runs on Essence. What you are doing when using TTC to make energy for a process is like a civilization of ants finding a working CPU and using its fan to power their little ant electric grid.
 
The whole debate with explaining the source of our money does highlight that while we have the economic background: resources 4, we don't actually have socially acceptable background: resources 4. I.e. we need to come up with a scheme that would legitimize our resources. Ideally we also want this to be the background that explains us being caught in the company of Marcone, Thomas and Lara Raith, and whoever else we might meet. We have a number of options:
1) Lottery or Inheritance set up. Pluses: easy to explain. MInuses: non-renewable, might not be seen positively (due to it not being "earned". We would probably set up investments to explain the sustainability.
2) Set ourselves up with a business. Either some sort of software startup (dating app? ChatGPT analog? Remote techsupport?) using our cyberdevils (perfect loyalty, Technology 3, Computers 3, never sleep, superhuman information processing speeds, abilities scale at least a bit with the setup they are put in), or something else. Maybe artisanal medieval weapons? That should be enough to explain Resources 4 (though probably not 5), and also our contact with a n eclectic group of people. It also has a benefit of essentially being the truth, if we end up making weapons for people like Odin regularly.
 
1) Lottery or Inheritance set up. Pluses: easy to explain. MInuses: non-renewable, might not be seen positively (due to it not being "earned". We would probably set up investments to explain the sustainability.

It really only works short term, and can hurt our credibility more than it helps quite easily, Lottery winners are notorious bad spenders, and we'd have to fight that reputation every step of the way.
 
It really only works short term, and can hurt our credibility more than it helps quite easily, Lottery winners are notorious bad spenders, and we'd have to fight that reputation every step of the way.
True, but that's actually workable. "I won a lottery, and had the presence of mind to go to people who know money, like Lara/Thomas Raith, and they helped me set up investment plan, so I am now set up" is plausible.
 
True, but that's actually workable. "I won a lottery, and had the presence of mind to go to people who know money, like Lara/Thomas Raith, and they helped me set up investment plan, so I am now set up" is plausible.

Plausible, but frankly, I don't want to appear to be an investor, prefer the other plan.
 
The whole debate with explaining the source of our money does highlight that while we have the economic background: resources 4, we don't actually have socially acceptable background: resources 4. I.e. we need to come up with a scheme that would legitimize our resources. Ideally we also want this to be the background that explains us being caught in the company of Marcone, Thomas and Lara Raith, and whoever else we might meet. We have a number of options:
1) Lottery or Inheritance set up. Pluses: easy to explain. MInuses: non-renewable, might not be seen positively (due to it not being "earned". We would probably set up investments to explain the sustainability.
2) Set ourselves up with a business. Either some sort of software startup (dating app? ChatGPT analog? Remote techsupport?) using our cyberdevils (perfect loyalty, Technology 3, Computers 3, never sleep, superhuman information processing speeds, abilities scale at least a bit with the setup they are put in), or something else. Maybe artisanal medieval weapons? That should be enough to explain Resources 4 (though probably not 5), and also our contact with a n eclectic group of people. It also has a benefit of essentially being the truth, if we end up making weapons for people like Odin regularly.

You could certainly pretend to have invented AI and just have demons do it, it is even technically true, though you would have to be very careful what kind of instructions you give to the internet demons.
 
You could certainly pretend to have invented AI and just have demons do it, it is even technically true, though you would have to be very careful what kind of instructions you give to the internet demons.
We would need to be very careful not to call it an AI. Expert proprietary systems, very limited. But we could probably corner the market on artificial translation services, AI-assisted art, maybe assisted programming. But yes, I see the issue.
Plausible, but frankly, I don't want to appear to be an investor, prefer the other plan.
Personally, I do too, but that's because I am in fact interested in technology transfer from our kingdom to Earth.
 
You could certainly pretend to have invented AI and just have demons do it, it is even technically true, though you would have to be very careful what kind of instructions you give to the internet demons.
That doesn't sound sustainable, since each Cyber Devil requires a charm-use with an unusual number of successes required to make it permanent.

My best bet for something like that on a scale that is more than a little scam would be to conquer the Wicked City and get effectivly infinite Cyberdevils in our service.
 
That doesn't sound sustainable, since each Cyber Devil requires a charm-use with an unusual number of successes required to make it permanent.

My best bet for something like that on a scale that is more than a little scam would be to conquer the Wicked City and get effectivly infinite Cyberdevils in our service.
Fivefold Court has infomorphs. Also, how many Cyber Devils do we actually need for this? I mean, their capability adjusts at least somewhat to their hardware. If we legitimately invest into server farms and supercomputers and populate those, we'd need one cyberdevil per farm, I think. We really don't know enough to be able to say.
 
[X] This is about as good as it is going to get, take Rosie out for a coffee so she does not have to deal with this at least for the rest of today
-[X] NWS Jared on your way out
 
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