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“Human Resources” Shouldn’t Be This Literal: A PMMM/ProjectMoon Quest

Would you Distort or manifest EGO?

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AbyssRay said:
I don't think it's fair to proclaim that it's canon because of a detail in a spin-off manga. It's a theory, yes, but confirmed canon? No.
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First off: the spin off in question is canon, second, hypothesis not theory if it wasn't confirmed, third it's not the only proof, only the most blatant and easy to show, and the one I know the most and can refer to the fastest, all the rest has been told by PMMM experts on PMAS.

The design has not been chosen randomly, it is shown quite clearly in several panels to make quite sure you see it, it is very much designed to make you think of Walpurgis, and the design of Walpurgis is very much in line with the time period and region where Isabeau comes from.

Walpurgis is consistently depicted as beingg able to make herself invincible in the games, which is in line with Isabeau's invincibility to magical girls thanks to a wish.

There is exactly one known example of witch conglomerate in all of pmmm, walpurgis, and Isabeau is the only example we have of a witch finding herself in a situation that could lead to one such conglomerate, trapped in a different dimension with quite a lot of other witches.

This also explains why attacking Walpurgis before she appears, during her travel is not possible: she's still in the separate dimension she was trapped in during that time, she just obtained the ability to get out.
 
Nyarky said:
First off: the spin off in question is canon, second, hypothesis not theory if it wasn't confirmed, third it's not the only proof, only the most blatant and easy to show, and the one I know the most and can refer to the fastest, all the rest has been told by PMMM experts on PMAS.

The design has not been chosen randomly, it is shown quite clearly in several panels to make quite sure you see it, it is very much designed to make you think of Walpurgis, and the design of Walpurgis is very much in line with the time period and region where Isabeau comes from.

Walpurgis is consistently depicted as beingg able to make herself invincible in the games, which is in line with Isabeau's invincibility to magical girls thanks to a wish.

There is exactly one known example of witch conglomerate in all of pmmm, walpurgis, and Isabeau is the only example we have of a witch finding herself in a situation that could lead to one such conglomerate, trapped in a different dimension with quite a lot of other witches.

This also explains why attacking Walpurgis before she appears, during her travel is not possible: she's still in the separate dimension she was trapped in during that time, she just obtained the ability to get out.
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I don't see how any of those prove that it's canon Isabeau is her core though. Sure, they can push forward that kind of narrative, but I don't think it's fair to throw around it's canon onto others and treat it as objective truth.

Correlation is not causation, after all. It's all rather circumstantial aligning of facts, which is enough to base an idea on, but definitely not enough to go around and say to others it is "very much canon".
 
AbyssRay said:
Correlation is not causation, after all. It's all rather circumstantial aligning of facts,
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This is a story, not reality, there are no coincidences that big in stories, narrative structures don't work that way, not for a manga that had more than enough time to discuss said design.

The design is deliberate, this is important to remember, it has been shown to officials and given the ok, and the fact is that Isabeau is very much in a situation that is perfect to make Walpurgisnacht at the end.

It is canon 100%.
 
Nyarky said:
This is a story, not reality, there are no coincidences that big in stories, narrative structures don't work that way, not for a manga that had more than enough time to discuss said design.

The design is deliberate, this is important to remember, it has been shown to officials and given the ok, and the fact is that Isabeau is very much in a situation that is perfect to make Walpurgisnacht at the end.

It is canon 100%.
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I am going to simply disagree on that one, feels too much of a big leap over simple design matching. It's one thing to say they are perhaps arguably connected, another it is to go ahead and state that Isabeau is the core of her where nothing indicates that beyond a healthy lot of assumption.

So no, I disagree with it being canon 100%, it's far too thin of a story that is being spun here over a gate that shares clockwork imagery. Especially when one could easily say, not an opinion I hold, that Walpurgisnacht's clockwork is because she's the lower half of the sand timer hourglass shape she makes with Gretchen.

Though, from what I'm getting, I don't think we'll get anywhere proper in this argument and we might risk a derail so I suggest to simply agree to disagree.
 
Nyarky said:
Remind you of something?
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I'm getting a forbidden error from your image, so I can't see your proof. From the discussion it sounds like a combination of design similarities and a plausible narrative tying the pieces together. Shoehorned was the wrong word to use, but it's not explicit enough to declare 100% confirmed.

There are assumptions required such as Tart's Gate of Heaven that sealed Isabeau and Riz's Gate of Hell that sealed the horde of witches leading to the exact same place or being easily connected. If you're taking games as evidence then Walpurgisnacht is killable with purely magical girls, contradicting the absolute wish protection. As for Walpurgisnacht being a unique type, there's Hyades Daybreak from Kazumi Magica which is also a conglomeration. I admit the circumstances for Isabeau are convenient, but they're far from the only way for a conglomeration to form in history.

The assumptions needed to make it work are not extraordinary, which is why I would put it as plausible. I would only call it 100% canon if there's no room for the story to deconfirm it without a plot hole/retcon (a.k.a. wait for Walpurgis no Kaiten). Canon or not, I still dislike the trope of the big bad evil being personally sealed away by the heroes and then returning in a sequel.
 
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Suleverf said:
If you're taking games as evidence then Walpurgisnacht is killable with purely magical girls, contradicting the absolute wish protection.
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If you take the games as evidence, Walpurginacht is consistently able to become invincible whenever she wants according to some of the experts on PMAS.

There are strong implications that Walpurgis is only vulnerable to magical girls when the story she created allows it, like the tragedy of Madoka sacrificing herself, or the triumph of Homura managing to bring all the quintet together, in cases without that, like Homura fighting alone, she doesn't get a single scratch.

Walpurgis is explicitly a witch that create narratives, so taking them into accounts to see when she takes damages and seeing that it only applies to the narratives she wants, is important.

Suleverf said:
There are assumptions required such as Tart's Gate of Heaven that sealed Isabeau and Riz's Gate of Hell that sealed the horde of witches leading to the exact same place or being easily connected.
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Why wouldn't they? They come from the same magic, they serves the same purpose and there is no indications they don't. The only difference between the two is cosmetic, nothing more, there is no reason to think they aren't the same gate leading to the same place just changed in aesthetics by the interaction with Tart.

Suleverf said:
there's Hyades Daybreak from Kazumi Magica which is also a conglomeration.
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Who is explicitly artificial due to a particular wish, required a setup from the freezer of the pleiades, wasn't as strong as Waplurgis, had very big similarities to Walpurgis, and is talked about as something exceptional.

She's a very bad example to prove that combination witches are numerous, when it is clearly a big combination of unlikely factors that created it and it's the only case that isn't Walpurgis we see.

Suleverf said:
Canon or not, I still dislike the trope of the big bad evil being personally sealed away by the heroes and then returning in a sequel.
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Point of order; Twilight of the queen is dead, as far as personality comes anyway, Walpurgis has a different role, a different mindset, a different M.O.

Isabeau is the core, but she's not the witch in its entirety, so it's not a case of the same vilain coming back for the sequel, even more when Walpurgis was established first and Isabeau second in a prequel anyway.
 
Nyarky said:
Walpurgis is explicitly a witch that create narratives, so taking them into accounts to see when she takes damages and seeing that it only applies to the narratives she wants, is important.
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This implies that the wish protecting Isabeau got overwritten by or subsumed into the "narrative" nature of Walpurgis. There's no logical restriction preventing this, but it's not such an immediately obvious thing that they could introduce it without explanation.
Nyarky said:
The only difference between the two is cosmetic, nothing more,
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That's what I am skeptical of, if it's just a reskin I don't see the point in having heavenly swords dragging Isabeau in as opposed to shadow hands from hell, seeing as it's manifestly Riz's final act for Tart. I suppose Tart needed to keep up that divine image but still.
Nyarky said:
She's a very bad example to prove that combination witches are numerous, when it is clearly a big combination of unlikely factors that created it and it's the only case that isn't Walpurgis we see.
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The point is not that conglomeration witches are numerous, it's only that conglomerates are not one of a kind, and that Isabeau is not the only way to generate one.
Nyarky said:
Isabeau is the core, but she's not the witch in its entirety, so it's not a case of the same vilain coming back for the sequel, even more when Walpurgis was established first and Isabeau second in a prequel anyway.
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The essence would still be there. After Isabeau is sealed, Minou's magical girl contract is voided which they explain as being due to Isabeau's destruction. I suppose for me it would be just annoyance that the heroes' "as good as dead" technique as not actually "as good as dead".
 
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Suleverf said:
This implies that the wish protecting Isabeau got overwritten by or subsumed into the "narrative" nature of Walpurgis.
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There is actually an easy explanation for this: I did just say that Walpurgis is made from Isabeau but is not exactly Isabeau, and the wish was to protect Isabeau… so Walpurgis can simply use more or less of her nature as Isabeau to benefit or not from the wish whenever she wants. She either never gets a scratch or is completely defeated when we see her, so it make sense for the invincibility to be state she can toggle.

Suleverf said:
The point is not that conglomeration witches are numerous, it's only that conglomerates are not one of a kind, and that Isabeau is not the only way to generate one.
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And you chose a bad example for it because this conglomerate is just as one of a kind as Isabeau and shows that creating one is a very difficult endeavor that is too low probability to expect to be repeated. The only example we have of a similar situation is Isabeau.

Suleverf said:
I suppose for me it would be just annoyance that the heroes' "as good as dead" technique as not actually "as good as dead".
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*Shrug*

Its a classic for a reason, you don't see the body, you expect them to come back later, that's not really something strange. All seals break, all prisons are escaped….

Most of the time, *seals the opponent* means *will come back later*.
 
So... guys, is it okay if you agree to disagree? While I personally think that the evidence is compelling, saying its 100% canon is a bit much. Maybe something like a 70% chance to be Canon? Anyways, Im fairly sure you guys have been arguing since yesterday and the mods might get pissy if this turns into an actual derail
 
Lol, although i don't think they resent each other's choices and probably parted on good terms if they have met, Carmen although manipulative seems too respectful of Ayin's choices and Ayin is too much of a simp to kill carmen(again).
 
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Plus, you know, Carmen is also there to essentially guilt trip him over it.

Kind of hard to move on when the one you're responsible for their situation is right there constantly reminding you of your fuckup. Especially when they had a front row seat to the 10,000 years cycle of suffering you created with no way to interact with it what-so-ever.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Lepidoptera on May 26, 2023 at 11:54 PM, finished with 49 posts and 22 votes.
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I'm back, and I'll be closing the vote in just a little bit. Until then, get your last few decisions in. Remember, the top three are being selected, so it's a good idea to pick three you like instead of just one.
 
Come on, don't you want to know what this little character that is just *the biggest witch in the world* thinks of us? She is still coming to Mitikahara, you know? Maybe it would be a good idea to get into her mind a little, see if contains plans about us, what if she is writing a script for her latest tragedy staring us as the main character?
 
Uh, given that I just learned that I can make 3 votes...

I guess this?

[X] The Father, Alone
[X] The Observer, Scheming In Silence

I'm at a bit of a loss on whether to choose the Siblings or the Queen here.

Given that the Siblings are either some insight into Tiph and maybe Enoch somehow, while the Queen might be Walpugis herself.
 
Nyarky said:
@Lepidoptera, is the Queen interlude about Walpurgisnacht?
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You were half right. The Queen interlude is about Isabeau, but not Walpurgisnacht. I'm not sure if Isabeau is canonically Walpurgisnacht, but luckily I managed to find a way to sidestep it entirely.
 
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