[X] Respect: As little as she likes the Winter Fey and as much as you hate the terror-monsters that are fetches she can respect them a little more for doing a task no one else does
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
It's also important to remember that Winter and Summer are a product of primitive ancient humans (or near humans, I guess) using darkhallow-like ritual to create the courts. They are, essentially, from a time when "an eye for an eye" was a cutting edge legal practice, and where decimation had quite literal meaning. And, even if the current Mab is younger, she and they are bound by the legal practice from that time. To a fae their word is their bond. Mab can't transform Winter to a democracy even if she wished to - she's bound by the pre-feudal loyalty oaths of her subjects as much as they are bound by them. Winter is cruel, Winter is, in many respects, inefficient, and outdated. There's a reason for that - they are ancient and human society changed a lot since they were made.
Those are the standards.
Note that it doesnt prevent the usual bad faith actors attempting to disavow their minions when they think they can get away with it; see the Red King at Chitchen Itza reneging on his deal
Its why the Accords exist.
Its cool. And you're welcome.
By human standards, maybe. But that does not apply here.
These are immortals. There are entities active who remember what the fires of this creation look like.
And we know nothing about the Exaltation's origins in this AU.
I would caution about declarations about billions of years when time travel and acausal time fuckery is potentially active aspects of this setting; the Seven Laws dont have a prohibition against time travel for nothing.
1)I do not agree.
Nothing we see in canon suggests that Fae mantle holders are slaves or enslaved.
2)The Fae Courts do not do child snatching in canon.
They conscript soldiers from populations that have deals with them, or that owe them allegiance, they dont grab randos off the street. Child snatching is as far as I can recall, a Fomor thing.
1)No it doesnt. Death Masks was three or four years ago. Before the Coin, before Lash, before Hellfire access, before the Darkhallow, before being made Warden commander for the eastern United States. Dresden has grown a significant amount in knowledge and skill and responsibilities since then.
As for the book? Even doctors will refresh their knowledge before major scheduled operations.
And Dresden is repeatedly used as an audience proxy to introduce new facts.
2)Bob is probably Law 5 imo.
Spirit of knowledge who has been around for more than six hundred years as an assitant for a procession of wizards.
Thats an easy call.
=The Alphas started out as agents of Tara West, wolfwere, in Fool Moon.
They have subsequently acted as agents of Dresden, in Summer Knight and Turn Coat.
We've seen Thomas act, in various situations, as an agent of the White Court(Grave Peril), Red Court (Death Masks), and Dresden(Turn Coat). We've seen Goodman Grey act as agent for Marcone and Dresden at different times. We've had talk of Kincaid acting as agent for Drakul before entering the Archive's service.
Its not assumption. Its observed fact, consistent with the QM's IC statements.
=Six distinct layers???? *checks*
The update says no such thing. Read it again. Here's the relevant part:
The third chapter is interesting, but not that relevant to you, being that it is about the use and abuse of mortal authorities to get what you want out of a situation. The gist of it is you can but any such mortals are defined as the retainers of whichever co-signatory of the Accords is making use of them so long as they are acting knowingly. Here follow six pages describing various levels of awareness . Beneath a certain level which can be summarized as 'that's not Bigfoot it's just a bear' mortals are not treated as retainers but more as a kind of battlefield hazard, no different from getting someone to fall in a pit of spikes. There are of course contingencies about the mortals being aware of more than their handlers thought. The party in question must then clean up their mess to the satisfaction of a neutral emissary if they do not wish the higher standard to apply. Murphy has definitely been acting as Harry's agent for years and more recently yours. Is the Library of Congress a member? Ah not important now...
COMMENTARY
Molly figures out that Bob used to have some sort of affiliation with Winter, but not why Mab was (allegedly) after him.
Or that Mab has almost certainly known for the last decade that Bob has been in Dresden's possession.
I mean, he sends Bob out to recon Chicago and gather information; the probability that he's been seen and tracked approach unity.
Bob knows the Gates exist. Makes sense.
I doubt any of his previous wielders has ever actually seen the Gates though, and if they did they wouldnt have taken Bob to a Winter fortress. So he's probably passing on secondhand knowledge.
Lol Harry getting repeatedly reminded that he needs to do a lot of remedial studying.
Interesting.
If the malk pride was a deliberate information probe? Their apparent passivity while Emma-O's posse set up in the Barrens was likely to have been another information-gathering exercise to see our reactions and allegiances.
I think its safe to assume that they've been closely watching our construction work.
If the issue with the Fallen was an externally imposed influence, the White God would have been able to end it summarily as a corruption of the free will of his angels.
The fact that the Fallen are as they are suggests its their own decision.
Besides, its explicitly stated that Mab's debt to Nicodemus and Anduriel was incurred in her earliest days, when she needed a standin at the Gates to take her place temporarily. If the Fallen had anything to do with the Outsiders, Mab sure as hell would not have had one running the defenses in her place, even temporarily.
Warfare cultivates the kind of calculus where you let an enemy bomb one of your cities without warning the defenders so as to preserve an intelligence advantage. Where you feed your men into a grinder for months on end in a cold-blooded determination that you can outspend the otner side in lives. Where you mortgage the future of your society tomorrow for warmaking capacity today.
There are genuinely hard decisions in play here, and thats just war by modern standards, when we have decided stuff like sacking cities for resources is immoral.
Actual, take no prisoners, total war is likely to be exponentially worse, as evidenced by some of the human nuclear war plans.
A faction that has been engaged in total war since the dawn of recorded history is going to have optimized for that scenario.
Its actual hard decisionmaking. Not Hard Decisions.
I am quite at a loss at how you see any connection between the 5x Sideral Maidens of Exalted and the Fae of the Dresdenverse.
There is no textual, thematic or mythological link I can see.
Even soulsteel is firmly associated with death, ghosts, Abyssals and Neverborn.
Anyway, we have a pretty good idea who sponsored the Fae in their ascension to current guardians.
It was Hecate. The Triune Goddess of the Greek Pantheon.
- Location
- Germany
Taking a tithe of children from subjects/dependants is still child-snatching by any reasonable definition.
As the janissaries of the Osmans were, if we are looking at an IRL example.
Nemesis has shown itself to be clever.
I wouldn't completly rule out that he managed to corrupt an Angel without magical influence or anything else that the White God can counter.
Just convince him of something that ultimatly makes him fall willingly.
Obviously that doesn't mean Old Nick now serves the Outsiders, but we have seen before that Nemesis is not above creating chaos to weaken the people who might otherwise help defend reality, even without directly taking over any of the involved factions.
Empathy 5 yes. Tech Excellency not yet; we're gonna meet Odin before we begin any work.
If I had to work off the top of my head?
In order of preference:
Molly: 22-10 Ancient Sorcery= 12
Empathy 5: 4XP
Hellscry Chakra: 8xp
Lydia: 6
Hunters Bolt: 6xp
Ox-Body: 3xp
Occult 2: 2xp
Awareness 2: 2xp
We did kill a greater akuma after all.
And Lydia did punch through the attempts of a greater akuma to block off the NeverNever.
That has to count for something.
We know that the current iteration of humanity is not the first one. We have seen the process of evolution and can guess at the timeline, which is billions of years. Exaltation is definitely from one of the prior iterations. So, either linear time isn't applicable (more likely) to measure how long it has been since exaltation was creation, or it has been billions of years at minimum.
And it's still archaeology. Or battlefield salvage.
1) Fae mantle holders are bound to certain behaviors and controlled in and out of their personal lives. They are not allowed (or not able) to freely resign, and don't get a choice of whether to take up their mantle in at least some scenarios. They are, in those respects, slaves. Call them janissaries if it's more palatable to you.
2) Let's just say that my views on conscription and ancestral debts likely differ from yours.
I misremembered this part "six pages describing various levels of awareness" as six levels. Still, my point stands. There are various levels of awareness, each coming with its own expected responsibilities and dangers.
Harry was distinctly Law 0 in your quote. This doesn't mean he has improved since then. You'll have to demonstrate that, not just assume. So far we know that, in canon at that point, he had a copy of Accords, and couldn't make heads or tails of it, and had to completely rely on Bob for interpretation.
Doylist reason for Dresden's ignorance (and I agree, it's mostly Doylist) doesn't mean he's not ignorant in-universe. As this update demonstrates, for example. Bob assumes that Harry knows more than he actually does. That is likely a common issue. Hopefully Dresden will actually notice the problem and addresses it.
Tech excellency is not just for Odin. It's also for Last Station.
Its not, not even by human standards. Its conscription, with familial/tribal consent.
The Royal Navy was sending 8 and 10 year olds to sea as cabin boys onboard their warships as late as the 18th and 19th century.
And it wasnt that long ago we sent children to military boarding school to prepare them for the armed forces.
The existence of intellectus basically makes that implausible IMO.
- Location
- Germany
Eh, if WG with all his omniscience can't or won't identify and remove all Nemesis schemes right now, what makes you think he would have done so if the intrigue was once directed against his angels?
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
If we get to essence 3 and have at least 20 XP then I am voting for the kingdom. Otherwise Inner devils unchained. We need more minion power right now it feels like Molly has to do too much herself.
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Depending on conditions of the army service, conscription can, in fact, be considered a form of slavery.
The Royal Navy did not select all of its members starting from the age of 8 and for that matter they also did not press-gang the children, what you are referring to are future midshipmen unless I am much mistaken and those are officers. Many of the sailors much of the time were pressganged yes but as adults and crucially... it's not like the practice was liked, in the context of the British Empire which is not what one would call spotless in its historical record.
What Winter is doing is a lot more like demanding tribute in children which you then induct into your wars, in that sense they are Janissaries, though without any stigma of being slave soldiers, they are just more soldiers. Still if you asked any one of those children if they wanted to go you would probably be hearing a lot of screams about how they do not want to leave mama and papa.. That in and of itself beats out all historical comparisons as a reason why this is morally bankrupt by any modern standard.
We know the current iteration of creation doesnt appear to be the first one.
We also know that temporal manipulation is explicitly a thing in this setting.
Hence my caution about declarations of how history works.
Its neither archaeology nor battlefield salvage to gank someone else's inheritance while the line of inheritance is extant and the executors of the estate are alive. Thats like looting the temple of a tribe and calling it archeology.
Which is why I suspect that Mab's understanding of what an Exaltation is is imperfect.
1)Senior Fae mantle holders are prevented from certain actions.
They arent controlled; Maeve had explicitly been slacking on some of her duties for years even before the Nemesis whammy hit, or so I recall. That was part of the background of the Cold Case short story.
2)How many mantle holders have wanted to resign and been unable to?
The only ones where its even been mentioned as an issue has been with some of the Knights.
You might want to read that again. Because thats not how its stated to work.
No he wasnt.
I will remind you that he was under the Doom of Damocles from 16 onwards to at least 19, under heightened scrutiny after that, and we explicitly see him argue Council Law to Morgan in Storm Front.
If people will kill you for breaking the law, you learn the law.
Furthermore, he was a PI and police consultant with a weapons permit, and there are licensing requirements for two of those, including knowing your legal limits.
In this scene? He was challenged to a duel to the death, and went to refresh his knowledge of the details.
He had trouble, or wasnt inclined, to read the original document in its original language and phrasing, and instead of struggling, called on Bob. Thats not the same thing as ignorance of the actual legal details.
Dresden has been serving as a Warden commander for a year now, and explicitly negotiated Marcone's accession to the Accords in 2007. And before that, after Bianca tried to screw him with the Accords, he spent months or years investigating every possibility for fixing what was done to Susan.
He could not have served as Mab's Emissary in Summer Knight without a working knowledge of both the Accord and Fae law and custom.
We dont need the Tech Excellency for Tier 1 Last Station.
We'd be better off buying Tech 3 actually, to raise the rank of things we can actually plausibly do.
Or Craft 4, if we want more dice. Either way, not this turn IMO.
Maybe he thinks mortals can handle Nemesis schemes just fine, but an unbound angel is a different scale of threar?
Even assuming the WG does nothing, which isnt something to take for granted? The angels have intellectus too.
Nemesis attempting to interact with them/subvert them comes into their personal purview.
Hence implausible.
Besides, like I said, Mab wouldnt have let Anduriel and Nicky anywhere near command of the Gates if the Fallen had a history of vulnerability to the blandishments of Outsiders.
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Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
[X] Fascination: This isn't the whole story, even Bob admits to not knowing everything on the subject. You want to know where all the missing pieces are. Then you will be able to make the judgement properly
The system Winter practices seems to be a mix between janissaries and 18th century Russian empire conscription, which was for life.
Nothing of what you are saying is making me think it's not slavery.
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
I'd argue that beings like that would look at the idea of slavery and think it... quaint. That the idea of free will in any form is an optical illusion, that we are all chained to those above us and even the highest are bound by their mission and their nature. There is and will always be precisely one choice for the powerful at any given moment in time, one way things can go, and the only reason mortals sometimes think otherwise is that their actions don't matter. Whether an ant starts its day's march with one of its left feet or its right matters little when its the aggregate motions of the swarm that mean anything at all.
These are alien creatures living under something resembling She Who Lives In Her Name logic.
Cassiemouse
Market Atheist
[X] Fascination: This isn't the whole story, even Bob admits to not knowing everything on the subject. You want to know where all the missing pieces are. Then you will be able to make the judgement properly
- Location
- Canada
If this ends up being true, then we ought to treat them the same way the Exalted treated SWLIHM: with extreme prejudice and violence.
- Location
- Germany
Even if it takes yet again 4/5ths of the world with it.
- Location
- Canada
To be fair, that was only possible because the Exalted had mercy and weren't willing to go all out to kill every Primordial, which gave SWLIHN an opportunity. We won't make the same mistake.
[X] Doubt: Why is it the task of winter in its cruelty to guard the gates? Where are the Angels? Surely if there is any task that is meant for the hosts of heaven it is guarding the universe against those who would unmake it
Although I would rather vote against Respect than for Doubt.
Although I would rather vote against Respect than for Doubt.
Nah, not just midshipmen.
It was law that not just the navy, but the merchant marine could
The statutes of the realm [1101-1713] : printed by command of his majesty King George the Third ; in pursuance of an address of the House of Commons of Great Britain ; from original records and authentic manuscripts : Great Britain : Free Download, B
Listed in HMSO Sectional List 24, Public Record Office publications Includes bibliographical references 1 Explore this and other items from our digitised...
archive.org
Modified later to increase the minimum age, and so on.
But its worth remembering all this is pretty recent human practice by supernatural standards; the older wizards would have been old enough to see it, let alone the immortals.
Not acceptable by modern standards, of course. At least in theory.
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Tribute yes. Sorta like how ancient nationstates would levy military formations as tribute from client states.
As for the children, of course they dont want to leave. But its not really unprecedented for older children(10ish) to be sent away from their home to apprentice or indenture or even boarding school. Taking the wishes of children into account is a fairly recent occurrence. Not condoning it, but pointing out that community standards changing are a pretty recent occurrence.
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As an aside, we dont actually know how old the children recruits were supposed to be.
Butcher didnt say. The only indication was Molly comparing them to her siblings, and by the time of the short story, her youngest sibling Harry Junior was ~12 by the timeline, with the eldest Daniel being in his early 20s.
We dont actually know enough to tell. The recruitment we see bears some resemblance to what I recall of janissaries.
Some are recruited as children(??? age limits), but in the story we see it happen Mab is explicit about their being recruited at that age for training.
When they are supposed to be old enough to be actually sent to the battlefield? Not stated.
What happens if you suffer longterm damage? Not stated. Do any of them live long enough to retire? Not stated.
If they live long enough to retire, what happens? Not stated.
There's a lot of room there for worldbuilding.
Its not slavery. They arent treated as property. As conscripts, yes, but not as property.
Thats one of the cruel ironies of the Dresdenverse; supernatural custom appears to reflect human custom, just several centuries out of date. Community standards change.
Nah, I wouldnt agree.
A lot of the Fae are all too human. Deliberately so; word of Jim is that all Sidhe are part-mortal.
How that translates, I have no idea.
1) The Yozi surrendered. If they'd actually fought to the death, SWILIHN's example suggests that noone would have won.
2) If we chose to start shit? We have comparatively fewer resources and allies vs the Fae than the Solar Deliberative had to fight the Primordial War. And this is a lower power setting to boot; so far at least.
I doubt the fate of the Fae will ever be ours to decide unilaterally.
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Nah, not just midshipmen.
It was law that not just the navy, but the merchant marine couldimpresssorry, apprentice children between 10 and 21 without the consent of the child or their parents, and keep them until they were at least 21.
Navigation Act of 1703.The statutes of the realm [1101-1713] : printed by command of his majesty King George the Third ; in pursuance of an address of the House of Commons of Great Britain ; from original records and authentic manuscripts : Great Britain : Free Download, B
Listed in HMSO Sectional List 24, Public Record Office publications Includes bibliographical references 1 Explore this and other items from our digitised...archive.org
Modified later to increase the minimum age, and so on.
But its worth remembering all this is pretty recent human practice by supernatural standards; the older wizards would have been old enough to see it, let alone the immortals.
Not acceptable by modern standards, of course. At least in theory.
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Tribute yes. Sorta like how ancient nationstates would levy military formations as tribute.
As for the children, of course they dont want to leave. But its not really unprecedented for older children(10ish) to be sent away from their home to apprentice or indenture or even boarding school. Taking the wishes of children into account is a fairly recent occurrence. Not condoning it, but pointing out that community standards changing are a pretty recent occurrence.
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As an aside, we dont actually know how old the children recruits were supposed to be.
Butcher didnt say. The only indication was Molly comparing them to her siblings, and by the time of the short story, her youngest sibling Harry Junior was ~12 by the timeline, with the eldest Daniel being in his early 20s.
Generally speaking nation states would not press formations into service for the rest of their lives, they also are not... inhuman manifestations of nature red in tooth and claw. Even if one wants to compare them to apprentices into the merchant marine those could leave at some point and would not be reft from all human contact. The particular standards of the people who had been handing off their kids to the fey for centuries would not even be on the radar of Molly Carpenter, born 1989.
Edit: Since they are taken into the Nevernever odds are they would be fed fey food which after a certain time would ensure they cannot ever go home, which is also a good fit for the legends of people lost in faerie.
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You'll have to provide your definition of slavery, and property and conscript then, because from where I am standing, the distinction is meaningless.
See the link above I provided for Russian conscription system. It was very much for life.