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[X] Discuss the Jin further, they are close allies of the Throne, and through them the west, and their representative here was not the most available, for numerous reasons.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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TimEd
Meteor maker
[x] Discuss the Jin further, they are close allies of the Throne, and through them the west, and their representative here was not the most available, for numerous reasons.
This is a placeholder vote. I may or may not change it depending on the arguments. I'm too divided of mind to stick to one over the other. It's too evenly valued to me.
This is a placeholder vote. I may or may not change it depending on the arguments. I'm too divided of mind to stick to one over the other. It's too evenly valued to me.
[X] Discuss the Jin further, they are close allies of the Throne, and through them the west, and their representative here was not the most available, for numerous reasons.
[X] Discuss the Jin further, they are close allies of the Throne, and through them the west, and their representative here was not the most available, for numerous reasons.
Ultimately, the immediate concerns of the meeting we're stepping into is besides the point. The Jin are more relevant to the overarching tensions within the empire than the Zheng, at least as it applies to Emerald Seas interests. Which happen to be our interests. And where we're flying pretty blind.
The Jin are close allies of the throne, support the Sun to a degree we don't understand, have tensions with the Bai and near-murderous feud with the Xuan, both being allies/parties of interest to the Cai, and to us on a personal level. But other than a hazy outline, we don't understand these issues at all. And that impacts our ability to engage with the persons on the ground.
Time and again, issues with the Bai/Sun/Xuan/etc have been presented to us as Main Plot Intrigue™️ and then not gone anywhere, with us not engaging with any of the local agents/avatars of those higher conflicts. This has almost always been due to a lack of introductory information. It happened at multiple times throughout our time at the sect, both inner and outer, avoiding ever speaking of/to Sun Liling, the Meng/Bai conflict with Meng De, and so on. Most recently, it happened with Jin Tae himself, when we whiffed on getting Xuan Shi to speak on the Jin. Jin Tae then immediately fell off the face of the planet, and even when he's resurfaced, he's been nigh-automatically suppressed in the narrative because it's very busy and there's simply nothing to work off of, so no room to handle both introduction and playing out.
Like, it's a pretty big shame Jin Tae won't be in this Ducal action. It would have been fascinating. We'd get to see the contrasts and limitations of Jin support for the Western Territories juxtaposed with the Imperial bias towards the conventional, which Western jungle practices have to be pushing the limits of, sharpened into tighter focus by Jin Tae's position as a MoI trainee, who especially embody that bias. That would have been pretty cool! Extraordinarily useful too! You'd also have the Xuan vs. Jin dynamic in there. But the groundwork to make that possible with the crowded roster simply isn't there. It wasn't done. We didn't arm ourselves with the knowledge necessary.
So now we have an action that, while not entirely directionless, is basically a shadow of what it could have been. It's almost purely a Meizhen vs. Sun Liling show, now. Which is fine, but it's not great. Xuan Shi has nothing to do in the scene; he doesn't need to be reined in(not with regards to anyone actually present) and can't constrain anyone else who's here. Zheng Fu is more of a question mark, but besides verbal sparring with Meizhen and maybe being scandalously chill with jungle heresies, there's not much for him to do here either exactly because the Zheng are so disconnected. And we don't want him verbally sparring with Meizhen, because that just sucks up oxygen from the Bai vs. Sun dynamic that is actually related to the plot that's been trying and failing to get off of the ground for actual years, in-game and out.
Frankly, we don't have time for Zheng Fu's shit; especially if Ling Qi's going to continue being something of a dick towards him, which hearing a Bai clan-character assessment has 0 chance of changing for the better. I doubt it'll make it worse either, it just won't move the needle at all. There's no place for Xuan Shi and no space for Zheng Fu, in the action.
To summarize, the established constellation of Emerald Seas/Thousand Lakes/Western Territories/Peaks/Savage Seas/Alabaster Sands geopolitical tensions is anemic in terms of detail, needs all the help it can get, is directly relevant to the political issues the Sun are bringing to our doorstep, and has caused major narrative distortions every time it has been skipped over. This would be something like the 4th time.
It's past due. This isn't really a choice. The Zheng are a side show and need to clear out of the way or introduce themselves in a way that isn't mutually exclusive with a main plotline.
Ultimately, the immediate concerns of the meeting we're stepping into is besides the point. The Jin are more relevant to the overarching tensions within the empire than the Zheng, at least as it applies to Emerald Seas interests. Which happen to be our interests. And where we're flying pretty blind.
The Jin are close allies of the throne, support the Sun to a degree we don't understand, have tensions with the Bai and near-murderous feud with the Xuan, both being allies/parties of interest to the Cai, and to us on a personal level. But other than a hazy outline, we don't understand these issues at all. And that impacts our ability to engage with the persons on the ground.
Time and again, issues with the Bai/Sun/Xuan/etc have been presented to us as Main Plot Intrigue™️ and then not gone anywhere, with us not engaging with any of the local agents/avatars of those higher conflicts. This has almost always been due to a lack of introductory information. It happened at multiple times throughout our time at the sect, both inner and outer, avoiding ever speaking of/to Sun Liling, the Meng/Bai conflict with Meng De, and so on. Most recently, it happened with Jin Tae himself, when we whiffed on getting Xuan Shi to speak on the Jin. Jin Tae then immediately fell off the face of the planet, and even when he's resurfaced, he's been nigh-automatically suppressed in the narrative because it's very busy and there's simply nothing to work off of, so no room to handle both introduction and playing out.
Like, it's a pretty big shame Jin Tae won't be in this Ducal action. It would have been fascinating. We'd get to see the contrasts and limitations of Jin support for the Western Territories juxtaposed with the Imperial bias towards the conventional, which Western jungle practices have to be pushing the limits of, sharpened into tighter focus by Jin Tae's position as a MoI trainee, who especially embody that bias. That would have been pretty cool! Extraordinarily useful too! You'd also have the Xuan vs. Jin dynamic in there. But the groundwork to make that possible with the crowded roster simply isn't there. It wasn't done. We didn't arm ourselves with the knowledge necessary.
So now we have an action that, while not entirely directionless, is basically a shadow of what it could have been. It's almost purely a Meizhen vs. Sun Liling show, now. Which is fine, but it's not great. Xuan Shi has nothing to do in the scene; he doesn't need to be reined in(not with regards to anyone actually present) and can't constrain anyone else who's here. Zheng Fu is more of a question mark, but besides verbal sparring with Meizhen and maybe being scandalously chill with jungle heresies, there's not much for him to do here either exactly because the Zheng are so disconnected. And we don't want him verbally sparring with Meizhen, because that just sucks up oxygen from the Bai vs. Sun dynamic that is actually related to the plot that's been trying and failing to get off of the ground for actual years, in-game and out.
Frankly, we don't have time for Zheng Fu's shit; especially if Ling Qi's going to continue being something of a dick towards him, which hearing a Bai clan-character assessment has 0 chance of changing for the better. I doubt it'll make it worse either, it just won't move the needle at all. There's no place for Xuan Shi and no space for Zheng Fu, in the action.
To summarize, the established constellation of Emerald Seas/Thousand Lakes/Western Territories/Peaks/Savage Seas/Alabaster Sands geopolitical tensions is anemic in terms of detail, needs all the help it can get, is directly relevant to the political issues the Sun are bringing to our doorstep, and has caused major narrative distortions every time it has been skipped over. This would be something like the 4th time.
It's past due. This isn't really a choice. The Zheng are a side show and need to clear out of the way or introduce themselves in a way that isn't mutually exclusive with a main plotline.
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[X] Discuss the Zheng further, they at least sent someone, however lax and indecorous they are. And that means being able to understand and steer their interests was more important.
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I think this is deeply and fundamentally wrong. The Zheng have been stated very specifically (I believe by Shenhua) to almost certainly be siding with the Bai in the coming conflict. Given our own connections with the Bai and all the bad blood there between the Bai and Zheng, this statement is pretty wild and understanding why it's the case seems very important indeed.
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- Location
- Colorado
[X] Discuss the Zheng further, they at least sent someone, however lax and indecorous they are. And that means being able to understand and steer their interests was more important.
That isn't what was said, and it's besides the point.
What was said is that the Zheng would stand in opposition to true suppression of the Bai. On the grounds that they share the qualities of being spirit blooded clans from before the founding of the empire that enjoy elevated domestic sovereignty in opposition to the Throne's centralization efforts. At least as far as we've been told, it's a straightforward situation. There's certainly more going on, what with their internal factions and all, but whatever.
All of the actual action that's making it to our feet is in the western/central column of the empire. We're sorely overdue in understanding any of it, and it keeps poking at us. We've been wholly unable to respond in any way whatsoever, on any level whatsoever, because of near-total ignorance. The plot keeps bumping into us, and we just kind of look around startled for a second and keep walking, almost unable to even see the spectre haunting our steps. It's silly.
There's an argument that @yrsillar should just kill the Sun Liling/Western Territories plotline, but he's doing the opposite and doubling down on it. So we should maybe actually sweep our eyes in the direction of that confluence of plot points for once. The Jin are one of those plot points.
[X] Discuss the Jin further, they are close allies of the Throne, and through them the west, and their representative here was not the most available, for numerous reasons.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
[X] Discuss the Jin further, they are close allies of the Throne, and through them the west, and their representative here was not the most available, for numerous reasons.
Hmmmm, so I know people like Zheng better than Jin, understandably so, but I think Zheng are interesting. Too interesting in fact that it goes over and makes me want to vote for Jin, because me thinks they'd have less opportunity than Zheng. A shame Jin Tae can't make it to the cut but oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Can't have 'em all.
Hmmmm, so I know people like Zheng better than Jin, understandably so, but I think Zheng are interesting. Too interesting in fact that it goes over and makes me want to vote for Jin, because me thinks they'd have less opportunity than Zheng. A shame Jin Tae can't make it to the cut but oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Can't have 'em all.
Aliya
Someone I might become
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- Kazakhstan
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[X] Discuss the Jin further, they are close allies of the Throne, and through them the west, and their representative here was not the most available, for numerous reasons.
Jin are probably more directly relevant to the immediate plot than the Zheng.
Jin are probably more directly relevant to the immediate plot than the Zheng.
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
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[X] Discuss the Zheng further, they at least sent someone, however lax and indecorous they are. And that means being able to understand and steer their interests was more important.
First of all, Jin Tae is not involved in this arc at all, so learning more information about the relevant ducal seems more appropriate. Remember, in Imperial Menagerie, the two wildcards are the Sun and Sun Liling, and Zheng Fu and the Zheng.
We know a lot about the Sun. We have some isea of what's going on with them, amd we have an action specifically for the Liling wildcard...we don't have anything for the Zheng. We know their social structures mostly through sidestories and WOG, and we know they have some ideological split going on right now, but we need more information. We need to indo for the Zheng Fu wildcard.
Plus, keep in mind that we're getting information from a Bai! I feel like Meizhen will be the best source of any Zheng info, apart from an actual Zheng. Why? Because the Bai have a storied history with the Zheng, and view them as sort of peers compared to how they look down on the Jin. We're more likely to get accurate information from them.
I understand the point about possible bias, but I think that's more likely to affect the clan they have greater disdain for (the Jin) compared to the Zheng.
And lastly, I'd like for Xuan Shi to give us information on the Jin. As Abeo said, we passed it on during thr tournament in exchange for the Xuan Shi/Wang Chao bromance, but the sentiment was that we'd like to bear Shi tell us about it later. I agree with that. I'd prefer to hear thoughts from someone who's more engaged and familiar with them, like Xuan Shi, compared to a someone who's not, like Meizhen.
Edit: I disagree with the sentiment that the Jin are more important to the plot? The only connection to the Jin we have so far is Jin Tae, and our interactions with him are more in line with the Ministry of Integrity than his clan.
Meanwhile, the Zheng have appeared more. They're appearing in Journey to the East. Zheng Fu literally spoke to Shenhua, or is implied to have sent a letter to the upper echelons from his master before coming to us. The containment box has been breached, and the Zheng are going all around the empire and may cause chaos in the lead up to the eventual civil war.
We don't even know where they'll stand, with their whole ideological split.
First of all, Jin Tae is not involved in this arc at all, so learning more information about the relevant ducal seems more appropriate. Remember, in Imperial Menagerie, the two wildcards are the Sun and Sun Liling, and Zheng Fu and the Zheng.
We know a lot about the Sun. We have some isea of what's going on with them, amd we have an action specifically for the Liling wildcard...we don't have anything for the Zheng. We know their social structures mostly through sidestories and WOG, and we know they have some ideological split going on right now, but we need more information. We need to indo for the Zheng Fu wildcard.
Plus, keep in mind that we're getting information from a Bai! I feel like Meizhen will be the best source of any Zheng info, apart from an actual Zheng. Why? Because the Bai have a storied history with the Zheng, and view them as sort of peers compared to how they look down on the Jin. We're more likely to get accurate information from them.
I understand the point about possible bias, but I think that's more likely to affect the clan they have greater disdain for (the Jin) compared to the Zheng.
And lastly, I'd like for Xuan Shi to give us information on the Jin. As Abeo said, we passed it on during thr tournament in exchange for the Xuan Shi/Wang Chao bromance, but the sentiment was that we'd like to bear Shi tell us about it later. I agree with that. I'd prefer to hear thoughts from someone who's more engaged and familiar with them, like Xuan Shi, compared to a someone who's not, like Meizhen.
Edit: I disagree with the sentiment that the Jin are more important to the plot? The only connection to the Jin we have so far is Jin Tae, and our interactions with him are more in line with the Ministry of Integrity than his clan.
Meanwhile, the Zheng have appeared more. They're appearing in Journey to the East. Zheng Fu literally spoke to Shenhua, or is implied to have sent a letter to the upper echelons from his master before coming to us. The containment box has been breached, and the Zheng are going all around the empire and may cause chaos in the lead up to the eventual civil war.
We don't even know where they'll stand, with their whole ideological split.
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- Location
- Washington DC
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- He/Him
[X] Discuss the Zheng further, they at least sent someone, however lax and indecorous they are. And that means being able to understand and steer their interests was more important.
The Jin seem pretty much as far from the plot as it gets. They're a hanging political piece, but so very much are the Zheng, a larger power, and while they may have closeness to the Throne... they're still the Jin, and the Throne is still the Throne. Xiang's plot points are pretty much Xiang's. While the Jin are interesting and it feels like shooting myself in the foot to vote against learning more about them considering I've been wanting to do so for a while, if it's talking about what's important to the plot and what's important politically, the Zheng have received a lot more attention on the former front (see the appearance of Zheng Fu, the heavy Zheng presence in Journey to the East) and on the latter than the Jin.
This sticks out to me. Are they? Not only have they not so much as shown up to the summit, but they have received more or less the least narrative beats, information, or even foreshadowing of any single ducal clan in the story; they've basically received a couple of small hints in the context of the summit, but everyone has them beat there. And the wider corpus of Threads works from yrs doesn't help; when we get narrative weight and info around people of the Alabaster Sands in sidestories (commissioned as they are), it's often Jing. Even in this last post, the Jing take as much of the post up as the Jin do.
The Jin seem pretty much as far from the plot as it gets. They're a hanging political piece, but so very much are the Zheng, a larger power, and while they may have closeness to the Throne... they're still the Jin, and the Throne is still the Throne. Xiang's plot points are pretty much Xiang's. While the Jin are interesting and it feels like shooting myself in the foot to vote against learning more about them considering I've been wanting to do so for a while, if it's talking about what's important to the plot and what's important politically, the Zheng have received a lot more attention on the former front (see the appearance of Zheng Fu, the heavy Zheng presence in Journey to the East) and on the latter than the Jin.
[x] Discuss the Zheng further, they at least sent someone, however lax and indecorous they are. And that means being able to understand and steer their interests was more important.
I think it would be useful to provide a primer on what lead to the current political circumstance with the Sun party crashing our summit.
At the start of the quest, the Bai were being overtly suppressed by the throne and isolated in their relationship with other duchies. During the tournament at the end of the first year, the Cai and the Bai unveiled an opening of cooperation, and the border, between the Emerald Seas and Thousand Lakes. The centerpiece of this strategy was the export of Emerald Seas lumber, through a newly revitalized Bai port, to the Savage Seas.
This was greatly favourable to the Xuan of the Savage Seas because Emerald Seas lumber is a strategic resource in their shipbuilding that the Jin had been blocking. So the Cai, the Bai, and the Xuan came together in a mutually beneficial arrangement that circumvented the Jin messing with the Xuan and loosened the economic strangling of the Bai that was in Sun interests. Sun Shao wasn't happy that the status quo which favored the Jin and the Sun, who are nominal allies, was disrupted.
The Sun's current surprise presence at the summit is a direct retaliation against Cai Shenhua's surprise announcement of resurrected economic ties with the Thousand Lakes province.
And the Jin were, and are, tied up in those circumstances. But we still don't know how close the Sun and Jin really are. Were the Jin just going along with the throne and supporting the Sun to support the Mu's suppression/humiliation of the Bai? Or is there some more substantial beef between the Jin and Bai? Did the Sun ever try lobbying the Jin to ease off their effective blockade of the Xuan, to further isolate the Bai with a less desperate Xuan? Or was that not on their radar at all? This is just a couple questions off the top of my head, and I don't expect Meizhen to know everything, but she definitely knows more than we do about the circumstances between the Bai and the Sun, and the Jin do play into that constellation of relations, at least as it relates to the current situation.
The Sun are only in our face here at all because of the Jin messing with the Xuan, after all. By contrast, the Zheng have... zero to do with it at all. Info on the Jin could add context to the primary conflict going down in this scene/arc. Info on the Zheng just won't. It's relevant to the side-arc of "lol Ducals causing trouble", but as I've said before, we do not have time for Zheng Fu screwing around. If he wants to, we should just beat his ass and move on with our day. We don't have the narrative slack to spare for dealing with him being a dipshit, not even preventatively.
At the start of the quest, the Bai were being overtly suppressed by the throne and isolated in their relationship with other duchies. During the tournament at the end of the first year, the Cai and the Bai unveiled an opening of cooperation, and the border, between the Emerald Seas and Thousand Lakes. The centerpiece of this strategy was the export of Emerald Seas lumber, through a newly revitalized Bai port, to the Savage Seas.
This was greatly favourable to the Xuan of the Savage Seas because Emerald Seas lumber is a strategic resource in their shipbuilding that the Jin had been blocking. So the Cai, the Bai, and the Xuan came together in a mutually beneficial arrangement that circumvented the Jin messing with the Xuan and loosened the economic strangling of the Bai that was in Sun interests. Sun Shao wasn't happy that the status quo which favored the Jin and the Sun, who are nominal allies, was disrupted.
The Sun's current surprise presence at the summit is a direct retaliation against Cai Shenhua's surprise announcement of resurrected economic ties with the Thousand Lakes province.
And the Jin were, and are, tied up in those circumstances. But we still don't know how close the Sun and Jin really are. Were the Jin just going along with the throne and supporting the Sun to support the Mu's suppression/humiliation of the Bai? Or is there some more substantial beef between the Jin and Bai? Did the Sun ever try lobbying the Jin to ease off their effective blockade of the Xuan, to further isolate the Bai with a less desperate Xuan? Or was that not on their radar at all? This is just a couple questions off the top of my head, and I don't expect Meizhen to know everything, but she definitely knows more than we do about the circumstances between the Bai and the Sun, and the Jin do play into that constellation of relations, at least as it relates to the current situation.
The Sun are only in our face here at all because of the Jin messing with the Xuan, after all. By contrast, the Zheng have... zero to do with it at all. Info on the Jin could add context to the primary conflict going down in this scene/arc. Info on the Zheng just won't. It's relevant to the side-arc of "lol Ducals causing trouble", but as I've said before, we do not have time for Zheng Fu screwing around. If he wants to, we should just beat his ass and move on with our day. We don't have the narrative slack to spare for dealing with him being a dipshit, not even preventatively.
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[X] Discuss the Zheng further, they at least sent someone, however lax and indecorous they are. And that means being able to understand and steer their interests was more important.
