Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

JayTar said:

So, why do all the plans have Maggot Mana Plague?

Given the ethical problems with using it (even a single meal comes with subtle mind control, long term use comes with not so subtle mind control) it doesn't really seem worth the 8 exp. Mind control is a bit of a thing in character yes?

And it seems like the issues with feeding our minion's supernatural hungers are stable? MiS lets them feed with perfect control and not cause long term damage. Given time we can probably do research or set up programs to make feeding easier too. All sorts of ideas have been discussed.

But with things as they are Maggot Mana Plague really doesn't seem like a charm we want. And having 8 exp to put somewhere else is not insignificant.

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I can see why some people want it, but I would prefer to use the XP elsewhere. Not really something I'm going to argue over, though, since my main concerns this time are getting RVD and Windborne Stride and that seems to be on track.

JayTar said:

I think people are glossing over just the issues of just the -1 difficulty reduction from the first meal. This isn't just them feeling a bit grateful. This is permanent, if subtle, mind control. It doesn't matter if we murder their family. They will always be a little easier for us to convince then they would otherwise be. "But it also makes them vaguely loyal toward their Infernal benefactor"

The fact that what we are offering is literally food for the starving, and how downtrodden the beneficiaries are, makes any notion of informed consent suspect.

I, personally, will vote for any plan that does not include Maggot Mana Plague. At best it is a waste of exp. At worst it is Molly deciding that "Hey maybe just a little mind control is okay."

Maggot Mana Plague is the easy way out. It solves our problems. But at the cost of our morals.

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The -1 only applies while their digesting it I think. Once it's out of their system they're clean of our supernatural influence.

You've a point on the desperation being an issue, but there are things we can do about that.

I don't think Molly IC would truly want to benefit from drugged food, so taking some more effort to manually nerf the effect we don't want wouldn't be that weird.

To lay out an extreme example, all we really want is to fill the hunger of the white court demons at the moment.

If we assume that the food interacts with the supernatural fat stores the same way eating mortals would then we might be able to have our vamps take turns bulking and then detoxing while keeping them away from Molly until the influence is out of their systems. Depends on how that mechanic works exactly, which we won't know until/unless we get the charm.

Even if it doesn't work like that, we can still use a similar system. Set what is and is not acceptable first, then don't deviate from that and avoid direct social contact in general until they're not under the influence anymore.*

Past that, this isn't their only option anymore, and as long as we keep providing our current level of support to alternate means this is really more a matter of convenience than anything else for them.

*This is more effort on our part, but I'd like to point out that there are benefits to an approach like this from a purely cynical perspective as well.

Supernaturals are used to things coming with a catch. Being known as someone who plays it straight with the little guy and will take extra effort to avoid subverting their free will in a supernatural sense could easily be used to make it easier to recruit people and cultivate genuine loyalty.

Being in the business of recruiting supernatural entities and providing relevant benefits without being a predatory asshole about it essentially puts us in a league of our own for our target market.

BronzeTongue said:

The -1 only applies while their digesting it I think. Once it's out of their system they're clean of our supernatural influence.

You've a point on the desperation being an issue, but there are things we can do about that.

I don't think Molly IC would truly want to benefit from drugged food, so taking some more effort to manually nerf the effect we don't want wouldn't be that weird.

To lay out an extreme example, all we really want is to fill the hunger of the white court demons at the moment.

If we assume that the food interacts with the supernatural fat stores the same way eating mortals would then we might be able to have our vamps take turns bulking and then detoxing while keeping them away from Molly until the influence is out of their systems. Depends on how that mechanic works exactly, which we won't know until/unless we get the charm.

Even if it doesn't work like that, we can still use a similar system. Set what is and is not acceptable first, then don't deviate from that and avoid direct social contact in general until they're not under the influence anymore.*

Past that, this isn't their only option anymore, and as long as we keep providing our current level of support to alternate means this is really more a matter of convenience than anything else for them.

*This is more effort on our part, but I'd like to point out that there are benefits to an approach like this from a purely cynical perspective as well.

Supernaturals are used to things coming with a catch. Being known as someone who plays it straight with the little guy and will take extra effort to avoid subverting their free will in a supernatural sense could easily be used to make it easier to recruit people and cultivate genuine loyalty.

Being in the business of recruiting supernatural entities and providing relevant benefits without being a predatory asshole about it essentially puts us in a league of our own for our target market.

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Like, this is a hill I will die on. Maggot Mana Plague is coercive and immoral as hell.
We would be offering it to people who we are in a position of power over. Who are depending on us for protection and control of their hungers. Who are subordinates to us in an organisation we have created.

Your boss comes to you and says "Hey, I know you have been having trouble getting enough to eat. Why don't you try out this new food. Super filling, just one small catch. A tiny little bit of your free will."
Even if we say it is totally their choice, it's still really skeevy. Because the dynamics of the situation pressure them no matter what.

Still, if the effects are temporary then the consequences are at least somewhat manageable. But nothing about the charm says it is temporary. It would still be an incredible hazard even in the best case. And it seems quite foolish to take a charm that only maybe works in a way we hope it will.

Maybe if we could get a small clarification? @DragonParadox, do we know/can you tell us if the -1 difficulty effects from Maggot Mana Plague is temporary or permanent?

Honestly even if it is temporary I still see massive problems with using it. And if it is permanent then even a single feeding is an unacceptable level of harm, except perhaps balanced against straight up death.
But seeing as this is a problem that has other solutions. Solutions we are already working on. Maggot Mana Plague seems an incredibly poor choice. I would be skeptical of it being worth it if it was 3 exp. Let alone 8.

Seeing as that sentiment seems to not be uncommon, perhaps a variant of the winning plan that swaps it out?

Exalted it impossible to not become so powerful and skilled that mortals just don't get an opinion that you don't give them.

[X] Plan Authority is Asskicking

Earth-Destroyer said:

Exalted it impossible to not become so powerful and skilled that mortals just don't get an opinion that you don't give them.

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And that's not a bad thing?

The justification we use for things like excellencies is that we aren't doing anything to mind control them. We are just enhancing our self to be the best we can be.
But something that directly alters the targets directly breaks that.

Plus it's not like Molly is anywhere there yet. She still routinely loses social combat with some mortals, or at least has to work on it to win. Hear their arguments and address them properly.
It's not like trapping yourself in an echo chamber because you can verbally steamroll anyone you choose to is a good thing.

Meh I'm fine with a little mind control.

JayTar said:

Like, this is a hill I will die on. Maggot Mana Plague is coercive and immoral as hell.
We would be offering it to people who we are in a position of power over. Who are depending on us for protection and control of their hungers. Who are subordinates to us in an organisation we have created.

Your boss comes to you and says "Hey, I know you have been having trouble getting enough to eat. Why don't you try out this new food. Super filling, just one small catch. A tiny little bit of your free will."
Even if we say it is totally their choice, it's still really skeevy. Because the dynamics of the situation pressure them no matter what.

Still, if the effects are temporary then the consequences are at least somewhat manageable. But nothing about the charm says it is temporary. It would still be an incredible hazard even in the best case. And it seems quite foolish to take a charm that only maybe works in a way we hope it will.

Maybe if we could get a small clarification? @DragonParadox, do we know/can you tell us if the -1 difficulty effects from Maggot Mana Plague is temporary or permanent?

Honestly even if it is temporary I still see massive problems with using it. And if it is permanent then even a single feeding is an unacceptable level of harm, except perhaps balanced against straight up death.
But seeing as this is a problem that has other solutions. Solutions we are already working on. Maggot Mana Plague seems an incredibly poor choice.

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That's a fair position to take. I'm not sure why I'm the one arguing this side of things to be honest, since I don't even want it.

So here are some potential alternatives.

[X] Plan Duck Out
-[x] Molly: 29 XP
--[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4 XP
--[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
--[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
—[x] Bloodless Murk Evasion 9 XP
—[X] Running to Forever 4 XP
-[x] Lydia: 7 XP + 1 XP (25% of Molly's + 1)
--[x] Command The Dead: 3 XP
--[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3 XP
--[x] Alertness 2: 2 XP

[X] Plan Cross Eyed Look
-[x] Molly: 28 XP
--[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4 XP
--[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
--[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
--[x] Sinner-Boiling Stare 12 XP
-[x] Lydia: 7 XP + 2 XP (25% of Molly's + 2)
--[x] Command The Dead: 3 XP
--[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3 XP
—[x] Righteous Lion Defense 3 XP

[X] Say goodbye
-[X] Offer training and equipment instead
-[X] STUNT: "Believe me. I know the feeling. I really do. I grew up with it, even. I won't provide a magical immediate solution right now, not when you are so angry and not thinking clearly. What I will provide, however, are the means. I'll talk to some people, arrange training in how to fight, provide equipment if you want it. And if, by Christmas, you still want to keep fighting, we'll discuss the topic again. I might have something by that time".

Really RLD should be higher on the buy list for Lydia. Right now she doesn't have a defense against socials that don't involve mind magic.

And plan:

[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
-[x] Molly: 29xp
-[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
-[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
-[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
-[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
-[x] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
-[X] Etiquette 5: 4xp
-[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
-[x] Alertness 2: 2xp

Takes "Plan Authority is Asskicking" and swaps Maggot Mana Plague for Alchemy 2 and Etiquette 5. Maggot Mana Plague is immoral, unnecessary and costs a bunch of exp we could spend elsewhere. I see no reason to take the "easy" way out when it comes with so many problems and hooks. Don't feed the hungry with drugged food.

Supernatural hungers is a problem we can solve without having to resort to Maggot Mana Plague. And with how Maggot Mana Plague doesn't scale well it could never have been more then a temporary solution.

Oh and some other plans:

[X] Plan Duck Out
[X] Plan Cross Eyed Look

I did say I would vote for any plan that excludes it.

afterthought53 said:

Meh I'm fine with a little mind control.

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It's worth noting that this isn't just hand wringing over the implications of the charm effects. Molly does have something of a history with this topic.

I view it as something like playing a character who had a brush with heroin addiction. For most people taking serious pain killers when warranted isn't a huge deal, but for them it's something worth some more consideration.

Even if you think the specific effect isn't a big deal, it's at least worth a second thought in the context of the character we're playing.

Because if we aren't getting Bakemono then I feel that it's important that the supernatural parasites working over us are fully fighting fit and feeding them in any other way is even more harmful.


[X] Plan Court and War
-[x] Molly: 24 xp
-[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
-[x] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
-[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
-[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
-[x] Lydia: 7xp (25% of Molly's, rounded down 29 / 4 = 7.25 = 7) + 5 xp = 12 xp
-[x] Hunter's Bolt: 6 XP
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp

[X] Plan Authority is Asskicking
-[x] Molly: 27xp
-[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
-[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
-[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
-[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
-[x] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
-[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
-[x] Alertness 2: 2xp

[X] Make the offer (Must take Inner Devils Unchained Cost 12 XP)
[X]Plan Minion power!
-[X]Molly 32
-[X]Inner Devils Unchained Cost 12 XP
-[x] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
-[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
-[X] Running to forever 4 XP
-[X] Murder is meat 4 XP
Lydia 6 XP
-[X]Authority of the Psychomp: 3xp
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp


[X] Yes Minions, No Mind Control
-[x] Make the Offer
Molly: 29xp
-[x] Inner Devils Unchained: 12xp
-[X] Murder is Meat: 4xp
-[x] Wind-Born Stride: 8 xp
-[X] Naked Wicked Souls: 3xp
-[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
-[x] Alertness 2: 2xp

Sure but with all the benefits that are provided with MMP, I view it as them simply being that grateful that they can be at full capacity to protect their loved ones without having to actually eat people or whatever other form of feeding they're trying to avoid. You can even leave a disclaimer that hey this delicious food that miraculously fuels your supernatural powers to protect what is most dear to you will make you like me more. Like you'll be super grateful. At the end of the day its a -1 not an auto success like the Yomi Kings get to those who have sold their entire soul.

BronzeTongue said:

It's worth noting that this isn't just hand wringing over the implications of the charm effects. Molly does have something of a history with this topic.

I view it as something like playing a character who had a brush with heroin addiction. For most people taking serious pain killers when warranted isn't a huge deal, but for them it's something worth some more consideration.

Even if you think the specific effect isn't a big deal, it's at least worth a second thought in the context of the character we're playing.

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Incidentally MMP also satisfies addictions if Molly had the charm back then it would have been a much better solution then the brain surgery she did.

BronzeTongue said:

It's worth noting that this isn't just hand wringing over the implications of the charm effects. Molly does have something of a history with this topic.

I view it as something like playing a character who had a brush with heroin addiction. For most people taking serious pain killers when warranted isn't a huge deal, but for them it's something worth some more consideration.

Even if you think the specific effect isn't a big deal, it's at least worth a second thought in the context of the character we're playing.

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This.

Furthermore, the problems are not just internal. I worry about how other people will react to the knowledge that we are engaging in subtle mind control. People close to us will have cause to concern (Imagine trying to explain this to Dresden) and people far from us will not want to get close (Sure they talk a good game, but do you really want to join the faction that uses subtle mind control?)

afterthought53 said:

Sure but with all the benefits that are provided with MMP, I view it as them simply being that grateful that they can be at full capacity to protect their loved ones without having to actually eat people or whatever other form of feeding they're trying to avoid. You can even leave a disclaimer that hey this delicious food that miraculously fuels your supernatural powers to protect what is most dear to you will make you like me more. Like you'll be super grateful. At the end of the day its a -1 not an auto success like the Yomi Kings get to those who have sold their entire soul.

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I mean the fact that there is a mechanical effect makes it pretty clear there is a supernatural influence. At the very minimum it would mean supernaturally enforced super gratefulness.
It's not contingent on anything we do or any circumstances. We could force feed the akuma the maggots and they would have -1 social difficulty from us.

And if using it to poison our enemies was our plans for it I might be a little more willing to consider it. But nobody has been discussing that.

The fact that the initial control is minor just makes it subtle and insidious.

fictionfan said:

Because if we aren't getting Bakemono then I feel that it's important that the supernatural parasites working over us are fully fighting fit and feeding them in any other way is even more harmful.

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Raiths can feed without lasting harm pretty easily, and Malvora can work with horror movies. The skavis are harder, but we know from prior rulings that white vamps can learn from each other after they fledge. I don't know if we have any skavis off the top of my head, but rushing that as their primary task and doing whatever the lightest feeding they can live on seems viable.

Really it's necessary whatever we do, because they can't live full time on maggots and and the scaling isn't too great. Sure it's hundreds of people, but it caps at about 500, which we won't even see for a significant period of time.

We'll be organizing our own hell world, possibly running something with national presence as an earth side organization, then dropping off maggots for 300 people to try stretching between them. With the way some creatures take more than one person's worth of food as the charm measures it the results will likely be even less impressive.

Why pay 8 xp to temporarily and partially solve a problem we have to build alternatives for anyway?

Edit:
Fixed error

I am legitimately suprised people do not want the fomori power but all the most popular votes seem to have Maggot Mana Plague. That shit is sorta fucked up. I guess there is no reason not to get the cult training Charm at this point.

JayTar said:

And that's not a bad thing?

The justification we use for things like excellencies is that we aren't doing anything to mind control them. We are just enhancing our self to be the best we can be.
But something that directly alters the targets directly breaks that.

Plus it's not like Molly is anywhere there yet. She still routinely loses social combat with some mortals, or at least has to work on it to win. Hear their arguments and address them properly.
It's not like trapping yourself in an echo chamber because you can verbally steamroll anyone you choose to is a good thing.

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I see no difference between I have so much charisma you can't say no, to a power that says you cannot say no. Either way same outcome.

Nightdream said:

I am legitimately suprised people do not want the fomori power but all the most popular votes seem to have Maggot Mana Plague. That shit is sorta fucked up. I guess there is no reason not to get the cult training Charm at this point.

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That's a bit much. We can do stuff to make the social modifier less of a problem, but CPI has personality editing baked in.

Even past that, taking the slippery slope argument in the other direction isn't a good argument. If we reach a point where we think we're doing the wrong thing the response should be to stop, not try to get our steps in in the way to hell since we're already going.

We've got an entire 5 dot mentor specialized in pounding that idea into people's skulls.

BronzeTongue said:

That's a bit much. We can do stuff to make the social modifier less of a problem, but CPI has personality editing baked in.

Even past that, taking the slippery slope argument in the other direction isn't a good argument. If we reach a point where we think we're doing the wrong thing the response should be to stop, not try to get our steps in in the way to hell since we're already going.

We've got an entire 5 dot mentor specialized in pounding that idea into people's skulls.

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In a way, I feel MMP is worse, simply because the more subtle nature of it makes it easier to justify using it. At least the consequences of CPI are obvious to anyone who might potentially get training so they know what they are getting into. CPI is a cult Charm, but many HoBM Charms are straight up dark messiah Charms. Telling by the Exalted equivalent, Locust Mana Plague, this social advantage is reflected through the same sort if reverence you would give to a religious figure.

Earth-Destroyer said:

I see no difference between I have so much charisma you can't say no, to a power that says you cannot say no. Either way same outcome.

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Perhaps from a pure consequentialist point of view. But the process is important too. No ethics system perfectly encapsulates morality.

There are also important differences in the practical reality too. We don't have path to victory. We can't just arbitrarily talk anyone into anything. Even further development of our social skills won't bring us there. And even then how we use it is important. If our words can be a weapon it behooves us to treat them like one.

On the other hand mind control bypasses the usual social process. Perhaps under certain circumstances it could have legitimate use. But implanting loyalty into our subordinates under implicitly coercive circumstances is not one of them.

I am mostly voting for this because it feels too late to create a vote of my own.

[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
-[x] Molly: 29 XP
-[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
-[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
-[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
-[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
-[x] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
-[X] Etiquette 5: 4xp
-[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
-[x] Alertness 2: 2xp

Azais said:

Well, I'm corrected, but I'm still voting for this to happen, because even without that aspect I doubt these wamps (who I mainly want to help) would argue much with Molly (the combination of Essence's Demonic Primacy + High Social stats + savior which allows them to control their hungers after who knows how long is a hell of a drug).

Alas, they already are CoD's.

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I don't really want to mention this, but is there anything stoping the transformation happening for people that are already COD? The charm says becomes a COD and ..

Does already being a COD stop the second part from happening? COD is just a tag saying that the U Sun doesn't like you. (Or at least his automatic system doesn't)

Nightdream said:

I am mostly voting for this because it feels too late to create a vote of my own.

[X] Plan Authority Doesn't Need Mind Control.
-[x] Molly: 29 XP
-[x] Rendered Villain Dispersal: 4xp
-[x] Wind-Born Stride, 8 XP
-[x] Murder is Meat, 4 XP
-[x] Naked Wicked Souls, 3 XP
-[x] Alchemy 2 dots, 6XP:
-[X] Etiquette 5: 4xp
-[x] Lydia: 7xp + 1xp (25% of Molly's + 1)
-[x] Command The Dead: 3xp
-[x] Authority of the Psychopomp: 3xp
-[x] Alertness 2: 2xp

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You could always just approval vote this and whatever your ideal plan is.

It's not so late in the game that a good pitch couldn't theoretically overturn things.