Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Seems like jumping the gun to say infinite. I don't think that he has taken so much as 10 health levels of damage in a single scene. Molly taking a machine gun to the chest was only 3 health levels. Admittedly she had armor on.
I think we've seen him walk off some heavier magic stuff, but it's harder to quantify how much damage one of Dresden's kinetic blasts should do.

That aside though, it's worth remembering that this is a major artifact with connections to some of the strongest entities in the setting.

Nicodemus has had millennia to fill out his gear and this is the most valuable of what little he bothers with.

Considering the knowledge of the fallen the fact that he prefers this particular item to anything he could make or have made himself is particularly telling.
 
Well bashing damage. That doesn't kill even if it fills your entire health track.

Harry regularly throws around levels of force he describes in terms of being hit by a truck. I wouldn't really call that bashing.

The point remains that it's a major artifact, and one of the few places where DF has mortal accessible equipment comparable to high grade charms.

Note that it's one of the few things in DF that gives an actual perfect attack in the series. Cite

We've extrapolated their existence in a few places for the quest, but Niccy's noose does it on screen. An ability that's just tacked on as a bonus prize on top of its real function.
 
Note that it's one of the few things in DF that gives an actual perfect attack in the series. Cite
I know I have read that same wiki. It's really weird that it says protect when it should say heal. The bullets don't bounce off they tear into him. Niccy's back breaks after being shoot across the room. Now he springs back up again really quickly afterwards and acts like it's no big deal, but I think that can be explained by being very used to healing would be fatal injuries.
 
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I know I have read that same wiki. It's really weird that it says protect when it should say heal. The bullets don't bounce off they tear into him. Niccy's back breaks after being shoot across the room. Now he springs back up again really quickly afterwards and acts like it's no big deal, but I think that can be explained by being very used to healing would be fatal injuries.
That's not what the function of the artifact is though. It isn't charged with life magic or something, it commands entropy and death.

But this is besides the point; we're talking about the primary function of an artifact capable of perfect effects repeatedly noted IC as making the bearer impossible to kill save by way of the noose itself.

Which, to be more specific about my claims if it's significance, is one of only five (six if you count the eye of balor) magical artifacts with serious business special powers ever shown in the DF:

Is the Merlin's staff a special staff of office, like the Blackstaff, with special abilities?
There are very few objects that have "special abilities." I've only shown about five of them, in fact, including the Swords, the Blackstaff, and the Noose.
cite

We could just say everyone IC was wrong and it's actually more limited than that, but that's an argument we could apply to almost anything from the setting and only exists to arbitrarily nerf Dresden Files stuff.
 
That's not what the function of the artifact is though. It isn't charged with life magic or something, it commands entropy and death.

But this is besides the point; we're talking about the primary function of an artifact capable of perfect effects repeatedly noted IC as making the bearer impossible to kill save by way of the noose itself.
What it's charged with hardly matters. We don't know the details of how Nick works and Nick takes pains to keep things that way. Maybe he charges the noose with the life energy of all the people he kills.

Now I am not saying that killing him with the noose isn't likely the most practical way to kill him, but assuming it is a perfect effect when details are so thin on the ground seems weird. Nick doesn't act like he is immune to all damage besides that. If it was so unlimited I would expect Nick to fight like wolverine, but he doesn't.

Then again maybe I should stop arguing this. We hope to get that noose as loot someday.
 
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What it's charged with hardly matters. We don't know the details of how Nick works and Nick takes pains to keep things that way. Maybe he charges the noose with the life energy of all the people he kills.

Now I am not saying that killing him with the noose isn't likely the most practical way to kill him, but assuming it is a perfect effect when details are so thin on the ground seems weird. Nick doesn't act like he is immune to all damage besides that. If it was so unlimited I would expect Nick to fight like wolverine, but he doesn't.

Then again maybe I should stop arguing this. We hope to get that noose as loot someday.
The reason he doesn't seem immune is because the effect is sort of weird compared to exalted defenses, since it wasn't built under that paradigm.

We don't exactly have a splat book for this, so what we have to go on is how things are handled in the series. Some pretty powerful people with considerable advantages on their side treat it like it makes him impossible to kill but not to injure. It's also very clear in the top tier of artifact in the series.

They're thin on the ground in general, but this is one of the more or less explicit exceptions.

Rather than inventing mechanics to weaken it because it doesn't fit exalted mechanical design philosophy I think it's reasonable to treat it as doing what it says on the tin.
 
Well if he can be injured cutting off his head should be easier than chocking him to death.
[X] Vampires and humans, you can help everyone
-[x]Stunt: Put up a sign with an arrow. Potter's station food and shelter available. Don't disturb the peace.
 
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Rather than inventing mechanics to weaken it because it doesn't fit exalted mechanical design philosophy I think it's reasonable to treat it as doing what it says on the tin.
My mechanical interpretations would be literal:
-You can't die while wearing this, the last health-level can never be filled, no matter how much damage you have to ignore for that, other wounds are taken normally
-You quickly regenerate Bashing and Lethal damage and slightly less quickly Aggravated damage
-Only bashing damage dealt to you in Clinch (with the Noose) can kill you and doesn't heal at an accelerated rate.

Combine it with Nick having reduced wound-penalties, either from the artifact or just from having been stabbed and shot a lot over the last two millenia and gotten used to it and I think you have everything canonical.
 
  1. Three vampire are guaranteed, with as many as a dozen more out there once word gets out. As for humans there are probably hundreds in the tunnels. It's anyone's guess how many of them are minded to join the Jade Dogs
  2. It's Chicago, by November you should be done with it
  3. Not really, you would have to use undertown itself
1)Supernaturals can travel more freely than humans.
So I expect that we're likely to see most of the Whamps interested in the first month or two, while vanilla mortals are likely to have a long tail, especially as winter approaches. November is likely to see


2)Chicago estimates are roughly 10,400 people experiencing street and shelter homelessness on any given day in 2020 in Illnois.
Assuming half of that is in Chicago, and 20-40% of that find their way underground, we could be looking at a total population of 1000-2000 people.

Of that, only a subset is within travelling range of Last Station(Undertown is not a place to explore blindly).
And an even smaller sub-population of that is going to be trusting or desperate enough to risk a new player's suspicious offers of "no strings attached aid" within the first three to six months.

Several hundred is a high end estimate. Numbers might go up in winter.
Some are gonna be vets; its been five years since the War on Terror would have popped off, so you're seeing an upsurge of people with psych or physical injury, or just adrift.


3)Yeah, so more money needed by November. Even ghouls would probably prefer not to live outdoors in a Chicago winter. We either need to get the Dragons Nest capable of supporting that many people, or gain the trust to move a bunch of these people aboveground, and deal with meeting City of Chicago regulations for running a charity of that size.


4)Pity. Dont want to burn that focus.


5)Chicago Synthetics warehouse/HQ is supposed to be a clean front for our current income business.
We probably shouldnt establish any breadcrumbs between it and the Dragons Nest.
Gonna need a different property for that.

Could we just take the most vulnerable humans in for now? Molly would want to help everyone, but I doubt we can actually do the job right now.
1)No reasonable metric for most vulnerable human that doesnt encompass almost everyone underground.
I mean, they've no friends and family to squat with, for whatever reason they cant or wont use the homeless shelters in the city, and they are camping underground in summer/early fall. In Chicago, with winter coming.


2)At 300 bucks a month groceries, we can feed 500 humans for 150k a month.
And economies of scale kick in when you're buying in bulk.
We can feed them.

Actual medical issues we can kick in to the local medical system until they are fixed up.


3)A larger group of people is an obviously harder target for attackers, since there is safety in numbers.
And down here, it implies that they have a well-resourced patron who's funnelling significant resources to them, so starting shit is likely to draw...retribution.

The more so if the Jade Dogs show evidence of actually being kitted out.
If we add a couple Whamps to their number, the proposition of starting shit here begins to look prohibitive for any reasonably sane small group active in Undertown.

And the malks know we're here, so word is getting around the supernatural side of the Undertown community.

The actual issue is internal security, because you're going to have members of the human population who will look to try shit, out of learned behaviors, mental illness, just being assholes, or being paid or blackmailed to be agents.
Unlike the Creatures of Darkness, they dont have MiS pinging as a warning of what is and isnt permissible.

Mortals, as always, are the problem.


4)Also worth remembering that these people chose to be here.
There's homeless shelters and soup kitchens and food banks aboveground. There's bus terminals and rail stations and O'Hare. Something drove these people to take their chances with tunnels where there's predators and environmental hazards.

Whatever they are running from, inner demons or outer problems, represents an additional impediment to moving them out.
There's no guarantee that setting up aboveground charities will aid the people who we actually need to help.
You go to where your target population is, not the other way around.
 
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3)A larger group of people is an obviously harder target for attackers, since there is safety in numbers.
And down here, it implies that they have a patron who's funnelling significant resources to them, so starting shit is likely to draw...retribution.

The more so if the Jade Dogs show evidence of actually being kitted out.
If we add a couple Whamps to their number, the proposition of starting shit here begins to look prohibitive for any reasonably sane small group active in Undertown.

And the malks know we're here, so word is getting around the supernatural side of the Undertown community.

The actual issue is internal security, because you're going to have members of the human population who will look to try shit, out of learned behaviors, mental illness, just being assholes, or being paid or blackmailed to be agents.
Unlike the Creatures of Darkness, they dont have MiS pinging as a warning of what is and isnt permissible.

Mortals, as always, are the problem.
MiS doesn't stop because people break individual rules, as long as they still work in our service I think?

I'm a bit worried about abuse from the Ghouls and Whamps against mortals.
If our nicest ghoul thinks of humans as being below her on the foodchain, others might take that quite literally.
 
MiS doesn't stop because people break individual rules, as long as they still work in our service I think?

I'm a bit worried about abuse from the Ghouls and Whamps against mortals.
If our nicest ghoul thinks of humans as being below her on the foodchain, others might take that quite literally.
1)If they are intentionally going against our policy then they arent working for us, are they?
Thats one of the things you expect MiS covers: CoDs going behind your back to subvert your orders/intentions after swearing to follow them to your face.


2)Possible yes.
But that reads a lot more like just unconscious gang talk; bottom of the food chain, lower on the pecking order, low man on the totem pole etc. Figures of speech from someone who has lived a hard life for the last few years towards an outgroup.

MiS covers the whole ghoul hunger thing. And the Whampire hunger.
I dont expect them to actually attack mortals in their custody/care. Rudeness and roughness maybe, but not anthropophagy.
 
(Undertown is not a place to explore blindly).
It occurs to me that while digging new tunnels to our warehouse (or any other aboveground property) is a slow work (at most a kilometer a day), we could probably renovate what tunnels there are to house a mini-subway far faster. Reinforce the walls, make automatic (HMP-controlled) armored and possibly armed cars / trains / personal carriage systems to run the tunnels.

Providing a safe and fast way to travel could be important.
4)Also worth remembering that these people chose to be here.
"Chose" is probably a very strong word. We heard a baby crying. It wouldn't surprise me if there are multi-generational populations living here. I would also expect a larger per population presence of minor and not-so-minor talents to be here. And not just from interbreeding with magical beings either. People who generate techbane, and don't know what to do with their gift (or what their gift even is, or that they have it) would be pushed out of modern technological society. Underground seems like a likely ending point. And, as we saw with "99.(9) certain is not a sidereal, but we can hope" girl, even minor talents might be uncontrolled and affecting one's life.

Anyway, if we are talking about helping large scale population, we need:
1) Food
2) Sanitation
3) To provide security
4) Heat in winter

None of these is critical - they survived and would continue to survive without our involvement. And I caution against overreaching here. We are very action-starved right now, and too rapid of an expansion can be mission crippling. With that said,

[X] Vampires and humans, you can help everyone
-[x]Stunt: Put up a sign with an arrow. Potter's station food and shelter available. Don't disturb the peace.

The braver ones will be the first to come. Then it's word-of-mouth.
 
I mean, we could always buy up property and start up a charity that also happens to have convenient Undertown access to the Last Station. There's a bunch of advantages to be had there. Good way to help the homeless and secure an access point under our control filled with people that either work for or are grateful to us and are willing to call us immediately if someone starts poking around.
 
VOTE
[X] Vampires and humans, you can help everyone
[X] STUNT: You stare in the direction of the baby's wail for a long moment, then you clasp Sarah on the shoulder. "You've done well. All of you have." With an effort you turn away from the direction of the baby's voice and begin to walk, your steps quickening. "Lets go see to the fledgelings first. Then I'll see what we can afford to do about....the other people down here." And what it will require.
 
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This is, essentially, a discount VEE.
It's less powerful then VEE, but it's has less built in limitations. Doesn't cost 5 essence to use, can be used on a worshiper more then once a year, no max number of uses and can be given without great cost if you consider that a benefit.

It wouldn't be a waste to have both they fill different niches.
 
occurs to me that while digging new tunnels to our warehouse (or any other aboveground property) is a slow work (at most a kilometer a day), we could probably renovate what tunnels there are to house a mini-subway far faster. Reinforce the walls, make automatic (HMP-controlled) armored and possibly armed cars / trains / personal carriage systems to run the tunnels.

Providing a safe and fast way to travel could be important.
Nope.
There's a reason that Chicago's train system is above ground; Chicago is historically built on a swamp, and the water table is shallow around here. Flooding is not unknown either.

And the megaproject of building a covert subway is entirely too much effort for us at this time.
Too much effort for too little payoff.
"Chose" is probably a very strong word. We heard a baby crying. It wouldn't surprise me if there are multi-generational populations living here. I would also expect a larger per population presence of minor and not-so-minor talents to be here. And not just from interbreeding with magical beings either. People who generate techbane, and don't know what to do with their gift (or what their gift even is, or that they have it) would be pushed out of modern technological society. Underground seems like a likely ending point. And, as we saw with "99.(9) certain is not a sidereal, but we can hope" girl, even minor talents might be uncontrolled and affecting one's life.
It would surprise me. Very much so.

There's a difference between some desperate lady taking her newborn underground and having breeding populations of mortals living and raising families in the tunnels.
No education, no childhood vaccinations, food insecurity, Chicago winters in the open? Nah.

Techbane appears to be an issue for powerful wizards; we've seen talents and Fae changelings and scions and sorceresses live with modern technology just fine. The younger vampires are more comfortable with tech than Council wizards, even.
Its never going to drive a mortal population underground. Dresden has an outsize effect and he still lives in modern society.

The only way I'd see that happening would be if some fucker had a captive population he ruled.
 
I suspect there are fewer homeless in this setting than IRL.

Supernatural predation in addition to the regular ones must be taking a toll on the numbers.

And yeah, nobody powerless lives here as a choice.
We and possibly people like Dr. Strange and the fellow at the Barrels, find it useful to be here, out of sight of mortal authorities. And we don't have to fear mundane threats or minor supernatural predators.

For everyone else this is a little hell and you certainly wouldn't raise children here.
Food insecurity, predators, lack of literally any modern amenities, limited access to regular society or education...
 
It's less powerful then VEE, but it's has less built in limitations. Doesn't cost 5 essence to use, can be used on a worshiper more then once a year, no max number of uses and can be given without great cost if you consider that a benefit.

It wouldn't be a waste to have both they fill different niches.
I mean, yeah, VEE is far more of an absolute effect, but Fulfill Prayer scales with the number of successes. And once you break into 20+ successes, I feel that even a "very light" touch upon the scales of destiny wouldn't be very light. It probably can't grant supernatural powers or stuff like that, but finding one's true love? Lucking into an opportunity for a dream job? Cancer going into full remission? Yeah, those I can see easily.
Chicago winters in the open
Ok, this has come up before. Why do you consider the tunnels and underground rooms to be "in the open"? They are almost by definition shelter.

As to the other things - I strongly think that the possiblity of multi-generational population heavily depends on the involvement of supernatural in the mortal life here. The more the supernaturals are involved, the thinner the masquerade is, the closer the NeverNever? The higher the chances are that children will be born and raised here.
 
As to the other things - I strongly think that the possiblity of multi-generational population heavily depends on the involvement of supernatural in the mortal life here. The more the supernaturals are involved, the thinner the masquerade is, the closer the NeverNever? The higher the chances are that children will be born and raised here.
Having kids between a tribe of super-cats that Dresden compared to Hannibal Lector and some Ghoul-gangs is unlikely to result in any actually growing up.

The nearness of the supernatural is not a good thing to the most vulnerable of humans.
 
Ok, this has come up before. Why do you consider the tunnels and underground rooms to be "in the open"? They are almost by definition shelter.

As to the other things - I strongly think that the possiblity of multi-generational population heavily depends on the involvement of supernatural in the mortal life here. The more the supernaturals are involved, the thinner the masquerade is, the closer the NeverNever? The higher the chances are that children will be born and raised here.
1)They are environmentally exposed, hot in summer and freezing in winter. Flooding is a risk. There's multiple forms of mortal and supernatural fauna and flora all about the place. There's predators to kill and eat you, not necessarily in that order.
Those all fit every parameter for outdoors that I work with.

The only thing thats assured is that water cant fall from the sky on your head while you are underground, and the sun cant hit you directly.


2) Many (not all, but many)humanoid supernaturals in mortal society arent any more fond of living rough than humans are.
They like good food, human art and entertainment, the company of the relevant sexes. This is especially true of those most likely to interact with humanity to the point of sexual relations.

Undertown is for outcasts, the desperate and those with shit to hide.
And those who actually like living rough, few of whom are humanoid.
 
[X] Vampires and humans, you can help everyone
-[x]Stunt: Put up a sign with an arrow. Potter's station food and shelter available. Don't disturb the peace.
 
1)If they are intentionally going against our policy then they arent working for us, are they?
Thats one of the things you expect MiS covers: CoDs going behind your back to subvert your orders/intentions after swearing to follow them to your face.


2)Possible yes.
But that reads a lot more like just unconscious gang talk; bottom of the food chain, lower on the pecking order, low man on the totem pole etc. Figures of speech from someone who has lived a hard life for the last few years towards an outgroup.

MiS covers the whole ghoul hunger thing. And the Whampire hunger.
I dont expect them to actually attack mortals in their custody/care. Rudeness and roughness maybe, but not anthropophagy.

It very much depends how you make the rules. So for instance if Molly says 'anyone who steals is no longer part of the Jade Dogs' one stolen pack of gum would be enough to break MiS, if she says 'anyone who steals is on latrine cleaning duty' and then the person refuses or otherwise avoids it then they are out from under MiS. But there is a limit to the latitude. If she says 'no stealing' and someone does it consistently, as defined by the consensus of members, they are again out.
 
On further thought

[X] Vampires and humans, you can help everyone


-[]Stunt: Put up a sign with an arrow. Potter's station food and shelter available. Don't disturb the peace.
The station isn't ours. The shelter is not for us to offer, not until we get the spirit to agree to this. We are currently repairing his house. We have no right to invite others into it.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Feb 3, 2023 at 4:13 AM, finished with 90 posts and 11 votes.

  • [X] Vampires and humans, you can help everyone
    [X] Vampires and humans, you can help everyone
    -[x]Stunt: Put up a sign with an arrow. Potter's station food and shelter available. Don't disturb the peace.
    [X]try and buy a warehouse/building to turn into a homeless shelter for the humans that can double as a second entrance/exit for the tunnels
    [X] Just the vampires
    [X] STUNT: You stare in the direction of the baby's wail for a long moment, then you clasp Sarah on the shoulder. "You've done well. All of you have." With an effort you turn away from the direction of the baby's voice and begin to walk, your steps quickening. "Lets go see to the fledgelings first. Then I'll see what we can afford to do about....the other people down here." And what it will require.
 
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