Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

On the matter of why set this off before the election, and I stress that this is Molly's guess, because Whites work best when they are undisturbed and able to play the long game. In that context the more chaos the better because it will make it all the harder to cover it up. There will be all sorts of people who see this as an opportunity to gain power or reinforce it, it's fishing with dynamite and Greene only has one stick so she would want to make it count.
So callousness then. Maybe desperation, but definitely callousness.
I'd like to hear her side, but Im not feeling particularly charitable right now.

Any further comments from me on this topic would likely be in breach of the forum's rules concerning politics, and might well get me in jail in real life, so... I disagree with this position strongly is the only thing I will say.
Fair enough.
That involvement would be more than enough to start asking and receiving questions, especially if they also talked to her ("how did your husband know Harry Dresden?")
No it isnt.
Greene was Chicago PD, and this was a joint federal and local investigation.
Potentially state investigators as well; this was a high profile, gruesome murder. Everyone wanted a piece.

There were a shitload of people asking questions, and Dresden would have only been a focus of it for roughly 24-36 hours.
Greene was murdered Friday. Dresden was arrested on the evening of a Friday and released Saturday afternoon after exculpatory evidence showed up. And by Saturday night Daedalus would be dealing with the museum murders.

The timeline doesnt work.
All it takes for evil to win if for good to do nothing. Perfect is the enemy of done.

The kind of attitude you show there is not one I agree with, trying to get rid of one evil is not inviting another, we get rid of the white court and the fomor try to get in instead? Well, time to get rid of the fomor too, they can't be stronger than the white court, after all, they had to wait to take their place.

The concept of power vacuum is just an excuse to do nothing and let evil win, there is no reasons to think that anyone would let the new players take the place without jumping on them to stop it.
This is straight up untrue.
Because we've actually seen it happen in-universe in canon. The consequences of said vacuum are a massive part of the overlying metaplot of the series.

It doesnt really matter how you want to argue it IRL.
In the series, the consequences of a power vacuum in the supernatural world are very real.
To the tune of more than a hundred thousand dead. And the consequences are still reverberating.

I mean, its pretty simple here.
The plot of White Night, then Turn Coat, and lastly a chunk of Peace Talks, was based around attempts by Nemesis to destroy the White Court either directly, or maneuvering them into conflict with someone who would.

When the ultimate bad of the series wants them destroyed, I am leery of doing its work for it.
 
Do I think that he will eventually connect Molly Carpenter, daughter of Michael Carpenter with an anonymous elder Jade? Yes, absolutely, for a number of reasons. Do I think we should introduce ourselves now? Absolutely not. Set up a later meeting in either a public place or an accorded neutral territory to talk about the fledgeling's future. Do not delay that meeting. Ideally set it up tomorrow. Possibly bring Thomas, or Michael with us (might be a bad idea, will need further discussion). Right now this is information that would only confuse him.
This is not an eventually.
This is a check vehicle license plate against DMV records right now. He claims to be not too good with computers, so it will take him thirty minutes to call the White Court contact at the DMV to run the plate number, imstead of two minutes to check the website.

We literally took servitude of his niece.
We arent walking out of here without a name and contact info. It isnt relevant at the moment, its mandatory before we or they leave.
I dont see a reason to make a big production of it.
 
@uju32
I think there are two fundamental assumtions that we'll just never agree on.

1. Evil is still evil if it is the lesser in some great context, and it still has to be opposed.
2. Only a formal truce is a real truce, people can talk to each other and still have violence as a perfectly valid option unless they explicitly agreed not to do so, or if they are clearly marked neutral territory.
 
[X] Kill the elder vampire, he's too dangerous to let live
-[X] Activate Melee Excellency and Viridian Legend Exoskeleton (both reflexive, 2 Essence cost)
-[X] (Stunt) This is a much bigger deal than you could possibly have hoped for, but in the immediate moment it is still more important to prevent the Vampires from killing another human, now or tomorrow. As the light of your soul fills the room and your armor begins to surround you, you kick a chair in the elder vampires direction, not even hoping for any direct effect, but maybe to keep his eyes of the sword that appeared in your hand a fraction of a second longer while you charge.
 
@uju32
I think there are two fundamental assumtions that we'll just never agree on.

1. Evil is still evil if it is the lesser in some great context, and it still has to be opposed.
2. Only a formal truce is a real truce, people can talk to each other and still have violence as a perfectly valid option unless they explicitly agreed not to do so, or if they are clearly marked neutral territory.
1)Has to be opposed? Sure. How its opposed? Different matter.

The Fist of God raised his children in the city of Chicago during Marcone's rise, and while Lord Raith lurked outside the city.
He lived here while Bianca St Claire ran her brothel and buried murdered people on the grounds of her mansion.
His calling never sent him through any of their front door.

A lot of things do not require, or are best opposed, by nonviolent means.
Violence remains an option, just the last one.
Regardless of how satisfying it would be.

And sometimes, the Tao of Gandalf comes around. Ask the Chicago Alliance aka the Brighter Future Society.


2)Hard disagree.
That shit is for Denarians. Its so much a trait of Denarians that people expect it from them. Its always destro factions that attempt to pull that sort of short sighted underhanded bullshit that makes it harder to engage in diplomacy.

We can do better. The reputational benefits arent immediate, but they are significant.
And given that we already come prepackaged with reputational maluses due to our Exaltation, we need every little edge we can get.
 
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The Fist of God raised his children in the city of Chicago during Marcone's rise, and while Lord Raith lurked outside the city.
He lived here while Bianca St Claire ran her brothel and buried murdered people on the grounds of her mansion.
His calling never sent him through any of their front door.
Dad is beholden to the mysterious ways of God if he wants to work at full efficiency.
We are certainly not.

Also he's one man with a sword, we are one Essence and a Charm away from being a Nation.
 
The keep a copy bit is the important part.
If we HMP the computer before deleting the file, the cyberdevil will be able to restore them afterwards, no roll needed:
That on the other hand would work fine, the devil what literally uses the computer as its brain is at least as good at restoring data as a professional service
Before if you want it to be guaranteed, after would be a Computers Roll.
We keep the copy.
1)Has to be opposed? Sure. How its opposed? Different matter.
Yes. And Charity teachers her children that some fights can't be won. After which they hack the (school) system. ETE allows us to deny various nefarious forces entry into political arena. Yes, we don't have a charm to boost anyone, but NWS + ETE + RVD allows us to visit all the political rallies, check all the political candidates, then totally screw their campaigns over.

We are, in fact, equipped (or can be equipped) to keep forces of evil from taking advantage of political vacuum. Unless you assume that there are no good, uncorrupted politicians, we can, in fact, get those in power and then keep them uncorrupted.
 
I mean, its pretty simple here.
The plot of White Night, then Turn Coat, and lastly a chunk of Peace Talks, was based around attempts by Nemesis to destroy the White Court either directly, or maneuvering them into conflict with someone who would.

When the ultimate bad of the series wants them destroyed, I am leery of doing its work for it.

What if Nemesis was *trying* to destroy them so that people think it wants them dead and hesitate just like you are?

What if the way it was trying to destroy them was the actual reason and not the fact that it was the white court? Like, for example, if the goal was to introduce political instability and they were the easiest targets to make it so.

The fact that Nemesis is trying to destroy them is not indicative of them not being evil and that we should not try to oppose them, at most it is indicative that we'll have to make sure to keep some stability while doing so.

Evil is evil, necessary evil does not exists.

Edit:

Also, we are Exalted, even in this version, fuck the status quo is very much the reason we exists, not maintaining it.

Even more as an Infernal, the ones who herald the next age.
 
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Let me see if I've got positions in this debate correct here:

1a. Use Greene's Evidence ASAP or in October as she planned to cause serious damage to the White Court and kill the Elder Skavis right now, probably the younger one too.
1b. Use Greene's Evidence ASAP or in October as she planned to cause serious damage to the White Court, let the Elder and Younger Skavis live for now

2. Hold onto Greene's evidence, lay groundwork to minimize collateral damage and/or be able to oppose the Fomor on an institutional level before using it, let the Elder and Younger Skavis live for now

Is there anything I am missing here?
 
Let me see if I've got positions in this debate correct here:

1a. Use Greene's Evidence ASAP or in October as she planned to cause serious damage to the White Court and kill the Elder Skavis right now, probably the younger one too.
1b. Use Greene's Evidence ASAP or in October as she planned to cause serious damage to the White Court, let the Elder and Younger Skavis live for now

2. Hold onto Greene's evidence, lay groundwork to minimize collateral damage and/or be able to oppose the Fomor on an institutional level before using it, let the Elder and Younger Skavis live for now

Is there anything I am missing here?
I think there's also "hold onto the evidence, don't rock the boat too much" position, but then I might be too uncharitable, as it might be sub-position of the second option. I am mostly for the second option, but with a qualifier that, after preparation and discussion, it turns out that we can't both release the evidence and prevent civil unrest, I am for releasing the evidence.
 
Let me see if I've got positions in this debate correct here:

1a. Use Greene's Evidence ASAP or in October as she planned to cause serious damage to the White Court and kill the Elder Skavis right now, probably the younger one too.
1b. Use Greene's Evidence ASAP or in October as she planned to cause serious damage to the White Court, let the Elder and Younger Skavis live for now

2. Hold onto Greene's evidence, lay groundwork to minimize collateral damage and/or be able to oppose the Fomor on an institutional level before using it, let the Elder and Younger Skavis live for now

Is there anything I am missing here?
I might agree to the second option, but I still want to kill the Vamp in front of us.

One dangerous Elder less makes the world better and our later actions against the Court a little bit less dangerous.
 
But will we, in fact, do that? Or will we go charging impulsively after the next shiny plot-thread we see?
I don't think that's really fair accusation of the questers behavior so far? In the quest, we:
1) React to events happening in the quest - we are here right now as a follow up of Greene's murder, which in turn was a follow up of us interfering with Thule Society, which traces back to "Mentor 5: Michael Carpenter, Knight of the Cross" taking us for a "take your daughter to work day".
2) Follow up stuff that already happened (preparing for Mab, dealing with Rosie)
3) Training up, including obtaining industrial quantities of money.
4) Going on quests with dad, which falls under "mysterious ways".

The only "shiny new plot thread" we followed is the Ordo membership, I think, and even then that was consistent with our "training" and "follow up on previous events" activities.

So far, we have firmly been in "initial stages of exponential power up" -- gathering power, essentially, but not affecting major change.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jan 23, 2023 at 7:17 AM, finished with 93 posts and 16 votes.

  • [X] Offer to wipe the files, you already have a good portion of the material just by knowing what's in them
    -[X] HMP Sarah's computer before starting to wipe the files; spend no more than 1 essence on this, in order to avoid anima flair; use 1 willpower point for autosuccess.
    -[X] STUNT: "Very well then, we shall help each other. I wlll dispose of the evidence you seek destroyed, and you will leave the mortal to me. I still have business with her before I have to depart" you say, as you make way to the other room, where you guess the computer is, making sure to be the first one to enter. A quick glance at the machine leaves it impregnated with a newly called devil.
    [X]Plan Crash Override
    -[X]Wipe the files
    -[X]HMP Sarah's computer: 1m Essence + 1WP for autosux. Anima flare for surprise negation and to distract from HMP use -[X]Cyberdevil takes snapshot of computer, including all activity on it
    -[X]Have Molly, with cyberdevil look through and delete relevant data as well as online backups
    -[X]STUNT: "Indiscretion. Cant have that, of course." And if there's a little bitter amusement in your voice, you cant be sure at what. "Her life is still not your Court's to take. But I will attempt to disarm her of the weapon she wields." You walk, still in mid air towards the the home computer, which is already powered on. Pulling out the keyboard, you pause and talk over your shoulder."If you have enhanced...senses, looking too closely at what Im about to do is at your own peril." And as you type into the keyboard you call up another of your little helpers, with your many eyed anima banner unfolding around you like a malign flower.
    [X] Kill the elder vampire, he's too dangerous to let live
    -[X] Activate Melee Excellency and Viridian Legend Exoskeleton (both reflexive, 2 Essence cost)
    -[X] (Stunt) This is a much bigger deal than you could possibly have hoped for, but in the immediate moment it is still more important to prevent the Vampires from killing another human, now or tomorrow. As the light of your soul fills the room and your armor begins to surround you, you kick a chair in the elder vampires direction, not even hoping for any direct effect, but maybe to keep his eyes of the sword that appeared in your hand a fraction of a second longer while you charge.
    [x] Offer to wipe off the evidence of Raith crimes off all of Agent Green's devices
    -[x]... and keep a copy (Roll opposed Charisma+Subterfuge vs the Elder's Auspex ???)
    [X] Kill the elder vampire, he's too dangerous to let live
    [X] Introduce yourself properly, this charade has run its course
 
Wanted to see that we'll have to tell at one point or another, right now was indeed out, but there is an expiration date for that whole thing.
That's fair, and I don't expect to keep it secret forever either.

It's just that as a general principle I think it's important to avoid sharing information in a contested environment. Even if other people can learn something every bit they have to find alone is work that they need to do, and an opportunity to get distracted or make mistakes.

It's also worth noting that obvious can be a fluid sort of thing depending on perspective and expectations.

If you're looking for a centuries old jade vampire you're pretty sure just recently got to town you're unlikely to start looking in places where you'd find data on a 17 year old who's barely left it.

They didn't see Molly till she was at the door, they have no idea how we got here.

If we send the car away and get picked up somewhere discreet it could be a considerable period of time before they figure out the connection.

People aren't stupid, but human bias is incredibly exploitable and the less information people have the more they tend to fill in the blanks with what they expect to find.
Yeah, that's more than fair. What would you suggest? How should I change it? The main thrust of the vote is not the stunt, to be honest, but "wipe the computer while planting HMP into it".
I think you pretty much have it. My primary change to your current revision would be to try using Clippy first so that we can avoid using HMP in front of grandpa Skavis, but that's a paranoia thing rather than a construction detail thing.
We are taking the girl as a minion. So they are going to find out anyway. So best get it out now and not later when it can explode jn our face.
Secrets can explode, but this really isn't the time. This one is also not itself terribly likely to cause backlash is revealed at a later date.

Right now the only thing keeping the connection in play is coercion, I think we need to establish a little familiarity before attempting to make gestures like this.
Let me see if I've got positions in this debate correct here:

1a. Use Greene's Evidence ASAP or in October as she planned to cause serious damage to the White Court and kill the Elder Skavis right now, probably the younger one too.
1b. Use Greene's Evidence ASAP or in October as she planned to cause serious damage to the White Court, let the Elder and Younger Skavis live for now

2. Hold onto Greene's evidence, lay groundwork to minimize collateral damage and/or be able to oppose the Fomor on an institutional level before using it, let the Elder and Younger Skavis live for now

Is there anything I am missing here?
For my part what I want to do is less wait until we can take the fomor as arrange for actions against those responsible in a timely but subtle way.

The library would be the big lever for this, and it would also serve as a test. Protecting against this stuff is sort of in their area, so passing the data and collaborating on cutting out the white court in a secure way would solve the problem without causing general chaos.

If they can't or won't act that tells us things about them as an organization, and we have to handle the problem ourselves.

I don't think one person can shut something this large down, but that doesn't mean we should ignore it.

To extend DP's metaphor a bit, my issue with Greene's plan is that she wants to go fishing with dynamite at a public beach at the highest traffic hour of the day.
What if Nemesis was *trying* to destroy them so that people think it wants them dead and hesitate just like you are?

What if the way it was trying to destroy them was the actual reason and not the fact that it was the white court? Like, for example, if the goal was to introduce political instability and they were the easiest targets to make it so.

The fact that Nemesis is trying to destroy them is not indicative of them not being evil and that we should not try to oppose them, at most it is indicative that we'll have to make sure to keep some stability while doing so.

Evil is evil, necessary evil does not exists.
This sort of what it gets you stuck in an infinite loop of second guessing whose stopping point is arbitrary.

In my mind it's better to assume that even when some goals are hidden people's actions will still proceed towards satisfying some desire they have. Or at least attempt to do so in their view if things.

Nemesis is competent enough that I expect it to have more of a flexible priority list it tries to fill than a single brittle plan.

I agree that nemesis disliking you doesn't mean you're a good person or that you should get to do whatever you want, but it does warrant making sure that the situation doesn't change in a way that benefits the Outside significantly if at all avoidable.
 
On disclosing our identity leading to combat. Right now the elder vampire thinks his (many times grand) daughter / niece / whatever sold her service to an elder of Jade Court. Not good people in general, and the service might well be something unwholesome / dangerous. If / when he learns that we are a daughter of the Knight of the Cross, there are two possible conclusions he might makes:
1) We are a denarian. They made this play with Harry junior in canon, I am willing to bet this wasn't the first time they tried to suborn a knight's family member. The denarian to knight transition (and possibly backwards) is thematic. We want to avoid this conclusion as much as possible.
2) We are not a denarian, whatever else we can be (I am partial to cultivating "Charity / MIchael inherited something from the Dragon he killed" rumor - Dragons are killed rarely enough for no one to be able to call us out on our BS), and are at least somewhat aligned with Michael's boss. That's good news from the perspective of elder vampire. Because your loved one selling themselves to White God (aligned forces) is much better than them doing so to Denarians.
 
Do you not remember the events of the Fomor War? Where despite Dresden essentially wiping out the Reds, large chunks of the US was relying on the White Court to keep the Fomor at bay, and the White Council had to triage most of their available force to contest Europe? While the Fomor were holding coastal footholds in the US while contesting Europe?

The Council doesnt have all that much manpower on the ground to spare right now.

We're thirty two xp away from being able to deploy a billions strong army of wardevils using magitech military grade weaponry against other Nevernever powers.

We have strong limitations deploying our devils on Earth, but against any group of supernaturals with significant presence in the Nevernever, we can easily be a massive strategic threat, even if we just have them squat on the Way and shoot anyone we disapprove of with heavy artillery.
 
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Either way, this fight would be fast and brutal and without any particular likelyhood of collateral damage since neither of us has a moment to spare to demolish the house, when we have to focus on each other instead.
Perhaps you could run an experimental encounter, then post the results. I eyeballed approximate dice results, but a more clear demonstration of How Things Work would be better for the thread.
 
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