Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

We shouldn't lie, but we can frame the truth better.

My understanding of how occult works is that Molly knew what she was doing when she did it, it wasn't just something she wished for in ignorance that ran away from her. Being transparent about the fact that once we got into the thick of things we took an opportunity we didn't preciously think was available makes it clearer that there wasn't a point where they were sitting next to an unstable magic nuke with completely unknown trigger conditions.


[X] No, but this is even better than what you had envisaged
-[X] There was no point where this was out of control, but the opportunity wasn't apparent until after we started.

Basically:

Molly: Oooh let's make a ward that can twist up the fate of anything that comes with ill intent? What would be a good symbolic stand in for that? I know dog, but also it's strictly harmful because Pauline has to do it and she can only curse not bless.. Scorpion. 'because it is my nature' and all that Maybe make it proportional... But what would be the standards I can't really give an exhaustive list of every gribble and every power they might use with ill intent. Intent, that's it, dogs can recognize intent...
Exaltation: Oh you want to make a god? Why didn't you say so? Here let m dust off the schematics [Error no receptive spiritual crafting charm available] Default [Error no clear intent for use] Externalize to *squint* I think that is the world's weirdest thaumaturge. [Error Error Error essence not comparable with end user] *Sees Lydia's Essence* Maybe if I do this they won't all die horribly.
 
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Basically:

Molly: Oooh let's make a ward that can twist up the fate of anything that comes with ill intent? What would be a good symbolic stand in for that? I know dog, but also it's strictly harmful because Pauline has to do it and she can only curse not bless.. Scorpion. 'because it is my nature' and all that Maybe make it proportional... But what would be the standards I can't really give an exhaustive list of every gribble and every power they might use with ill intent. Intent, that's it, dogs can recognize intent...
Exaltation: Oh you want to make a god? Why didn't you say so? Here let m dust off the schematics [Error no receptive spiritual crafting charm available] Default [Error no clear intent for use] Externalize to *squint* I think that is the world's weirdest thaumaturge. [Error Error Error essence not comparable with end user] *Sees Lydia's Essence* Maybe if I do this they won't all die horribly.
So Molly actually is/was an unstable magic nuke that almost killed them all playing with her exaltation's shiny buttons?
 
So Molly actually is/was an unstable magic nuke that almost killed them all playing with her exaltation's shiny buttons?

No, if you did not have Lydia or did not get enough successes it would have returned [Error cannot make god, provide list of undesirable beings] at which point Molly would have pointed at Pauline to actually shape the vaguely dog-shaped mass of Essence into a layered dog and scorpion themed curse.
 
Something in that vein, prolly. Normal, Great, Legendary, Mythic... Exalted. :V
Mortal, Heroic, Legendary, Terrestrial, Celestial, Primordial?
… Actually, doesn't Lydia have a problem with her house not having a good threshold? Once that she needs to compensate for with whatever talisman her father hung around the entrances?

Might be worth our time to try setting something up with more kick at her place next.
With Harry and Mouse in place of, or in addition to minor practitioners, with a proper power channeling setup (TTC made, with designs from us via the Crown, Usum, Bob and Arawn)... Maybe also involve old man Matthews (as the current bearer of Arawn's mantle). And lots more power. I wonder if we'll crack 40 successes.
 
I think that it is useful for our new friendly accquintes to understand that the nature of Molly (and Lydia)'s powers means that sometimes hypersuccess inline with the general intent of what was attempted is a thing that can happen.

The alternative is telling the people here that Molly chose to not be upfront with them wrt she intended to occur.

[X] No, but this is even better than what you had envisaged
 
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Mortal, Heroic, Legendary, Terrestrial, Celestial, Primordial?
If grades were all spectrums of 5-10 sux, sure, but we are still in a system where 1-2 sux is normal, 3 sux is Great and 5 sux is Legendary.

Also a lot of people would say that instead of Primordial, it should be Solar. :V
I wonder if we'll crack 40 successes.
Mandatory remainder that a sux banking charm at 2-3 dots would allow Molly to break the 30 sux barrier completely alone.
 
[X] No, but this is even better than what you had envisaged
-[X] Empathy excellency
-[X] You look at the faces of the members of the Order of Cauldron, and for a moment, try and see this from their perspective. The feeling of power so familar and easy for you, turning into a terryfying avalanche beyond what they likely ever experienced. The deep dark echoes from before history twisting their sorcery, their only real defence against the world, into something beyond mortal. You need to reassure them. And so, you smile: "have you ever ridden an eager and willing tiger? I certainly aimed at this direction, but didn't quite expect this degree of success. I get a feeling that this might be a recurring thing with me".

Something like this.
 
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The proportional retribution thing is an interesting addition; it lowers what the least god will do in a lot of cases, but I wonder if the magical significance of it would make it stronger at the high end as well.
Maybr given time and experience to grow, but the biggest thing is proportional yield - as we've seen with canon wards, they only have so much power to burn and usually just fire full force, most wards can be worn down easily by provoking a response and then absorbing it on something expendable.

An intelligent ward is orders of magnitude harder to defeat without brute force.
Its the difference between a pressure plate trigger and a security guard operating the defenses.
It'd be able to spook off a neighbourhood vandal with a minor jinx and still be able to slap a vampire hard enough to get a turkey surprise.

And of course with a ward spirit it might also be able to do things like intimidate or identify that someone is firebombing the building from a distance and make them drop the bomb in their lap. Normal wards are very badly limited by the simplistic criteria they can take.

. I get a feeling that this might be a recurring thing woth me".
Typo
 
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Mandatory remainder that a sux banking charm at 2-3 dots would allow Molly to break the 30 sux barrier completely alone.
Yeah, but that one should be saved for rare "we are really, really invested in this, enough to suffer horrible agony" cases. Though yes, protecting our house, and the house of our circlemate would be a good cause.

I wonder - would Charity object to having or family house warded? I mean, angel bodyguards don't protect against mortal attacks. A powerful least god would. Also a funny image of angel bodyguards petting the celestial lion we conjure up.

Thanks, corrected.
And of course with a ward spirit it might also be able to do things like intimidate or identify that someone is firebombing the building from a distance and make them drop the bomb in their lap. Normal wards are very badly limited by the simplistic criteria they can take.
This is a least god, an exalted one. Very minor, but still, in principle, divinity, if an Earth-bound one. This probably means that there are two critical differences from normal wards:
1) It can grow. It's unlikely to directly benefit from a cult rating in this day and age ( @DragonParadox would it actually benefit from having a cult, and would the Order of Cauldron count?)
2) It's not a mortal. I.e. it isn't limited by mortal Laws of magic. What it does against the foes is unlikely to cause metaphysical corruption for its creators. It can murder the attackers, eat their souls and reanimate their corpses to serve it, and no Warden would be able to find a fault in this.
 
Yeah, but that one should be saved for rare "we are really, really invested in this, enough to suffer horrible agony" cases. Though yes, protecting our house, and the house of our circlemate would be a good cause.
Given that actually purchasing the Soul Rendering version is prolly impossible given how firmly it lodged itself in the thread's consciousness a "self-harm" charm, I primarily think homebrew.

Either a straight conversion that would also, idk, run on willpower or something, or a general "once a week, you can add a bunch of sux on top of your usual stuff." Something in that vein. Wan Kuei have an internalization discipline that allows them to spend more WP on actions; that could substitute too.

Maybe even cheaper by a dot, given that SRP could be theoretically used multiple times in a quick succession thanks to Infernals having a powerful combat regen charm. WP based version couldn't be used that way.
 
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Given that actually purchasing the Soul Rendering version is prolly impossible given how firmly it lodged itself in the thread's consciousness a "self-harm" charm, I primarily think homebrew.
Would it kill you to not treat it like some silly hand wringing?

It literally is a self harm charm, you have to roll a difficulty 7 willpower check to actually activate it on yourself and doing so deals unsoakable lethal damage you have to heal as you would any other lethal damage.

Abusing exalted healing and CSR to wipe it away after the fact doesn't make it any less real, which is presumably why using it constantly has psychological health risks.

You can say that you think it's worth it, or that we're overestimating the danger, but the self harm aspect is plainly written into the text of the charm.
 
[X] While not quite the intended outcome, the results speak for themselves. This is our first ritual working with multiple unfamiliar participants, after all, not to mention the addition of the heirloom cauldron.
 
Let's see, what would the combined dice pool be for a proper prepared ritual (Occult + intelligence) with our assets involved?

Molly: (Int 4 + Occult 5) X 2 Excellency + 2 WH + 2 Stunt = 22 dice, rolled at difficulty 3 (CCC + BSM)

Cyberdevil Int 2 + Occult 1 = 3 dice

Lydia Int 4 + Occult 1 + Excellency 5 = 10 dice

Harry ... Probably 7 or 8 dice, likely rolled at a discount difficulty thanks to Lash and Bob. Possibly with bonus dice if he uses hellfire / Lash's help

Mouse - I would put him at 10 dice, same as Lydia.

TTC, Usum, Arawn, and Bob helping to prepare the ritual site to lower the difficulty.

So, 50+ dice, most of which are rolled at discount difficulty (3 to 5) likely.

Center the ritual around ascending a willing cyberdevil possessing the house (hmp it beforehand to make a smarthouse) for further flavor, and I think we can crack 40 successes easy.
Would it kill you to not treat it like some silly hand wringing?

It literally is a self harm charm, you have to roll a difficulty 7 willpower check to actually activate it on yourself and doing so deals unsoakable lethal damage you have to heal as you would any other lethal damage.

Abusing exalted healing and CSR to wipe it away after the fact doesn't make it any less real, which is presumably why using it constantly has psychological health risks.

You can say that you think it's worth it, or that we're overestimating the danger, but the self harm aspect is plainly written into the text of the charm.
We were also told that it's only mentally harming if we do it often.
 
Given that actually purchasing the Soul Rendering version is prolly impossible given how firmly it lodged itself in the thread's consciousness a "self-harm" charm, I primarily think homebrew.
I think it's not so much that it lodged in consciousness as that when the subject is brought up a few scream their denial and ignore/don't accept all the other arguments to the contrary.

I'm sure if that charm was within the plan of someone who could argue every time they yelled, it would be chosen.
 
When 5 sux is legendary, 10+ sux really need to be called something e
:V
Compiled version also could be found on that ExWoD discord I linked before.
Yeah.
Id probably just default to using the Sorcerous Working homebrew you posted a while back.

And Harry, Mouse, Molly, and Lydia working together is drastically more than Harry working alone. Wards specifically designed to take into account Mouse being there and probably in command of said wards (like the general being in command of a fort) would work better than wards Harry likely has now (I don't remember him redesigning his wards around Mouse's presence).

Mechanically, assuming best possible conditions, Harry has at most 20 dice to throw at the problem of warding his house, even with Bob's help. Combined with all of us and with prep? Yeah, we can improve his protections, and by a significant margin as well.

There's no "good enough" when it comes to a protection of a magical commander in an active war. We don't need to spend significant resources on improving the wards, even. Just, more power, more successes, more high level people participating.
1) The question has never been whether Harry + Lydia + Molly can produce better results than any of them working alone.
Hell, throw Bob in there as well; he's usually an element of Dresden's ritualcasting.
The question is whether its a worthwhile expenditure of our resources such as time.

Harry has significantly upgraded wards that outclass essentially everything short of Demonreach in this part of the United States.
He had Bob as an adviser when doing so. He has Mouse as steward of his threshold on top of that.
He has the Za Guard.

The detection range of his old shields extends at least a city block.
Something tries to crack his shields while he's away during Blood Rites and fails. Warden regional commander Ramirez remarks on how fuckscary his wards are.

There is no reasonable argument I can see for redoing the entire thing just because. The juice is not worth the squeeze.
Remember, CAN is not SHOULD.
Wizards in particular are cognizant of the difference.

For example, if Dresden had ever wanted a spirit running his wards, he's had Bob since the beginning of the series.
But he's kept Bob as an advisor, lab assistant and researcher, which is very different from how Butters used him.
Or Kemmler.



2)Mouse is not a practitioner, he's a Temple Dog.
He draws power from thresholds, and somehow from living with a wizard.
He does not lend power to building wards. Nor does he run them.



3)Harry rebuild his shields offscreen.

He rebuilt them after Storm Front, when a summoned demon battered down his wards when he was still a noob.
He had them upgraded by Death Masks, when the Archive visits him and when Cassius tries to kill him with an entropy curse.
He rebuilt and upgraded them again after Dead Beat, when Grevane zergswarms his wards with multiple waves of zombies.

He received Mouse in Blood Rites, 2 years ago. Dead Beat was last year.
Its been less than a year since he rebuilt and upgraded his shields.
Comes with the thematics.
Arawns old hunts happened with horse and hound across the sky, so that's still an option in the charmset.
And Lya is good with all animals her charms cover.
Depends on which thematics we lean into, because her father was trying to expand outside of "Celtic god of death" to just plain "god of death". Opens a lot more themes for Lydia to plunder.
 
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It's too bad that we can't reliably replicate this, putting least gods on the thresholds of all the minor practitioners we know would be funny.

… Actually, doesn't Lydia have a problem with her house not having a good threshold? Once that she needs to compensate for with whatever talisman her father hung around the entrances?

Might be worth our time to try setting something up with more kick at her place next.

With Harry and Mouse in place of, or in addition to minor practitioners, with a proper power channeling setup (TTC made, with designs from us via the Crown, Usum, Bob and Arawn)... Maybe also involve old man Matthews (as the current bearer of Arawn's mantle). And lots more power. I wonder if we'll crack 40 successes.
I really want to do this for Lydia, both as protection for her and a passion project between two friends, we can hire Harry to help and that way he can't refuse payment. With the support of Bob and Lydia's father in planning the ritual we were able to create something of a level where we can proudly say it was made by an Exalted.

However, I prefer to create a lesser god than raise a cyberdemon, as their main loyalty is always primarily Molly and I would like whoever protects the house to have loyalty primarily to Lydia. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't leave a cyberdemon on a cell phone or computer to help her where she needs it. DP can you put such an action on the next turn?

And question @DragonParadox can we use Constructive Convergence of Principles fueled by the power of a Dragon's Nest to raise a small fairy wlyd Fae to the power of a Sidhe? To be a Sidne(a noble fae), you don't necessarily need to have a Mantle, just power.

That should help a lot, we took a little one promised an endless supply of pizza or other deadly food (which we can make even without VEE and just common money) if he pledged undying loyalty to us, we increased his power to gather more wlyd Fae and we have a lieutenant of considerable power that we can call upon to do the thing and manage our future intelligence network.
,
 
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I really want to do this for Lydia, both as protection for her and a passion project between two friends, we can hire Harry to help and that way he can't refuse payment. With the support of Bob and Lydia's father in planning the ritual we were able to create something of a level where we can proudly say it was made by an Exalted.

However, I prefer to create a lesser god than raise a cyberdemon, as their main loyalty is always primarily Molly and I would like whoever protects the house to have loyalty primarily to Lydia. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't leave a cyberdemon on a cell phone or computer to help her where she needs it. DP can you put such an action on the next turn?

And question @DragonParadox can we use Constructive Convergence of Principles fueled by the power of a Dragon's Nest to raise a small fairy wlyd Fae to the power of a Sidhe? To be a Sidne(a noble fae), you don't necessarily need to have a Mnato, just power.

That should help a lot, we took a little one promised an endless supply of pizza or other deadly food (which we can make even without VEE and just common money) if he pledged undying loyalty to us, we increased his power to gather more wlyd Fae and we have a lieutenant of considerable power that we can call upon to do the thing and manage our future intelligence network.
,

You can certainly pump power into one of the Little Folk if they let you, the problem is you are not sure if the result would still be more fey than demon, what with all the hell essence.
 
Harry has significantly upgraded wards that outclass essentially everything short of Demonreach in this part of the United States.
So far, diminishing returns don't seem to be a thing, with qualitatively new effects appearing as we break into new tiers of super legendary plus successes. We can quite possibly quadruple dice pool Harry has available, and add qualitative weight to his magic that he lacks. And yes, better protection is worth the effort.
 
You can certainly pump power into one of the Little Folk if they let you, the problem is you are not sure if the result would still be more fey than demon, what with all the hell essence.
Well, whatever the result, we will have a powerful magical being totally loyal that we can order to do certain tasks in our place, just as Mab can command Lean, possibly increasing our AP capacity through the wonders of DELAGATION.
 
We were also told that it's only mentally harming if we do it often.
Not disputing that, but I think you're looking at it the wrong way around. It's not an ability cool down, it's how much pain Molly can tolerate before it causes permanent mental issues.

Those should be treated differently, and riding the line on something like that as a matter of course isn't something sane people do even in the absence of immediate consequences.

Use it for emergencies? Sure. But taking the one week gap period as an indication we should use it once a week is leaning way too hard into game mechanics without paying enough attention to what they're abstracting.
 
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