Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Honestly that quote is just full of further proof that Mab is a bitch.
Exalted Molly should and propably would have done what Lady Molly couldn't, punch Mab for letting her garm an innocent man as an object lesson.
I dont think I agree.
I see where she is coming from. The instructions are there and freely accessible, but apparently Molly never checked, and then when she tried to tell her Molly apparently shrugged it off.

So teaching lesson time; burnt hand teaches best et cetera.

Its especially relevant because the previous Winter Lady was Maeve, her daughter, who was the exact type of person to blow off instruction until everything blew up in her face and other people have to pick up the pieces.
Which was possibly a factor in why she ended up dead in canon.

So Mab lets her learn an object lesson, and critically, remains nearby to handle cleanup if necessary.
She's Mab, she has a thousand things to do. But she kept herself available.
Carlos is not dead, medical care nearby. Relatively controlled circumstances.

Much different circumstances than having to find out on a battlefield or during high stakes negotiations.
Yes, you get the choice. Not your daughter.
Offering a deal to criminals is not morally equivalent to threatening people's family.

Don't get me wrong, penal drafts are still morally wrong IMO, especially in the kind of non-existential wars the USA fights, but they are not nearly as bad as using threats against a familymember, even a criminal, to force someone innocent to sign herself into slavery.
This is not an accurate characterization IMO.
Mab is not threatening Lydia, who has done nothing to her and hers. She is making no claim against Lydia herself. She does have an apparently justifiable claim against Arawn; I say apparently because we know none of the details.

She is going to dangle commutation of Arawn's offence/grudge if Lydia will work for her.
Questionable? Oh yes. But no more than a federal prosecutor offering a plea deal/reduced sentencing to a criminal if their child/sibling/friend will work for law enforcement.

And immortals often have a different view of legal majority than modern humanity, when its not externally enforced.
Squires and cabin boys used to get as young as 8 sometimes.
I really do not see any of that as Mab actually possessing empathy for the greater portion existence, you could make a point about her feeling something for Meave, but she does not really care about those kids. She just understands that Molly does and presents the rationalizations one might use to deaden that empathy. You made the point earlier that sadism is inefficient and so Mab would not lower herself to it, well empathy is just as inefficient so she would have reason to kill that part of herself. A lack of empathy and willingness of commit atrocity is evil, doing so for a cause that is ultimately necessary, protecting the Outer Gates is necessary evil .

I am not going to comment on how she may or may not treat Lydia or Harry because that would inherently be spoilers, it is for you guys to decide and vote accordingly.
Empathy is an advantage as long as it does not result in paralysis. It allows you to get a feel for the limits of the people you are empathizing with and how far you can push them, and gives you some idea how they are likely to react to your actions and those of others. Its important in diplomacy for anyone who cannot rely on strength alone, which is everyone not working for big G.

Whether she actually empathizes with the Miksani, that passage leaves open to interpretation, but Mab makes it clear she feels responsible for them and their wellbeing. Responsible for Winter at large as well.
That our people bit was deliberate.

And its not manufactured; pre-apotheosis Molly was a sensitive to feelings and emotions. And Mab knew that because her handmaiden trained her. Mab would have been unlikely to take the risk of attempting to falsify her feelings in that regard.
The loss of trust would be longterm.

EDIT
I like to think of Mab as a nuanced antagonist.
There is some Becoming The Mask going on, but how much is left unclear.
Butcher intentionally seems to write her as varying shades of grey, and people like Uriel who should know treat her the same way.

Still, this is your Mab. I dont get to tell you how to write her.
 
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Empathy is an advantage as long as it does not result in paralysis. It allows you to get a feel for the limits of the people you are empathizing with and how far you can push them, and gives you some idea how they are likely to react to your actions and those of others. Its important in diplomacy for anyone who cannot rely on strength alone, which is everyone not working for big G.

Whether she actually empathizes with the Miksani, that passage leaves open to interpretation, but Mab makes it clear she feels responsible for them and their wellbeing. Responsible for Winter at large as well.
That our people bit was deliberate.

And its not manufactured; pre-apotheosis Molly was a sensitive to feelings and emotions. And Mab knew that because her handmaiden trained her. Mab would have been unlikely to take the risk of attempting to falsify her feelings in that regard.
The loss of trust would be longterm.

EDIT
I like to think of Mab as a nuanced antagonist.
There is some Becoming The Mask going on, but how much is left unclear.
Butcher intentionally seems to write her as varying shades of grey, and people like Uriel who should know treat her the same way.

Still, this is your Mab. I dont get to tell you how to write her.

Empathy is not about getting an advantage, generally speaking it is a inherent good, the foundation of any moral system and from that Butcher quote you presented a few pages back that has been worn away in her post-Mantle. Now does that make her as evil as Anduriel? Does that make her one dimensional? By no means, she is an interesting and dynamic character and one the reader can empathize with. None of that requires her to be good though. The Anti-villain is a trope for a reason.
 
This is not an accurate characterization IMO.
Mab is not threatening Lydia, who has done nothing to her and hers. She is making no claim against Lydia herself. She does have an apparently justifiable claim against Arawn; I say apparently because we know none of the details.

She is going to dangle commutation of Arawn's offence/grudge if Lydia will work for her.
Questionable? Oh yes. But no more than a federal prosecutor offering a plea deal/reduced sentencing to a criminal if their child/sibling/friend will work for law enforcement.
Mab is not threatening Lydia, she is threatening Lydia's father to make her sign herself into lifelong service.
I really doubt any prosecutur would do that and if he did it would still be wrong.

And immortals often have a different view of legal majority than modern humanity, when its not externally enforced.
Squires and cabin boys used to get as young as 8 sometimes.
That's an explanation, not an excuse.
Molly has the values of a 21st century human and she should judge Mab accordingly, not by the mores of the 12th century.
We are also in 21st century human societies and will and should vote and argue accordingly.

Just because it makes sense for Mab to act in a certain way due to her life-experience or her Mantle does not mean the action is morally acceptable.
 
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The big problem with any claim against mabs morality or lack thereof remain the freaking Outer Gates. Assuming we have for a moment no means to change these circumstances any time soon or any way to reach who or whatever is responsible for things being this fucked up, the point is simply that theres constantly a massive supernatural war being fought, and if it isnt, the world ends.

So having someone mono-focused on keeping that going, while seeing everyone and everything including themselves as disposable assets for it, is not good, but im not sure its in general evil or wrong in any way, when the war would be lost otherwise.

Id like words with whoever did the whole stupid maiden/mother/crone setup though, there seems to be no reason for it beyond tradition.
 
I don't really care about Mab's morality, lack of empathy, evil, whatever. That's only tangentially relevant as far as I'm concerned.

The issue is that ya'll are voting to take Harry out of the fight before combat has concluded, combat which includes hilariously lethal opponents with every reason to take advantage of Harry's sudden and unexpected incapacitation. It's just dumb.
 
I don't really care about Mab's morality, lack of empathy, evil, whatever. That's only tangentially relevant as far as I'm concerned.

The issue is that ya'll are voting to take Harry out of the fight before combat has concluded, combat which includes hilariously lethal opponents with every reason to take advantage of Harry's sudden and unexpected incapacitation. It's just dumb.
Game it out.

There are two enemy combatants left. Evil Bob/The sub and Corpsetaker.

Corpsetaker is already running from Arawn. Taking both of them out of the equation.

Which leaves Lydia, Gard and Molly to deal with the Sub.

Molly ends this turn standing right next to Dresden, guarding him if he gets shot at.

We have seen Lydia block the cannon.

Gard is also free to act and not stupid. If she can block a cannonball, she'll be aggressive. Else she'll go for cover.
Behind Lydia or Molly.

And then it's over.
 
Empathy is not about getting an advantage, generally speaking it is a inherent good, the foundation of any moral system and from that Butcher quote you presented a few pages back that has been worn away in her post-Mantle. Now does that make her as evil as Anduriel? Does that make her one dimensional? By no means, she is an interesting and dynamic character and one the reader can empathize with. None of that requires her to be good though. The Anti-villain is a trope for a reason.
Tbh, I don't really see a more empathic Queen of Winter lasting very long.
Cold comfort to those she bulldozes along the way though
 
Empathy is not about getting an advantage, generally speaking it is a inherent good, the foundation of any moral system and from that Butcher quote you presented a few pages back that has been worn away in her post-Mantle. Now does that make her as evil as Anduriel? Does that make her one dimensional? By no means, she is an interesting and dynamic character and one the reader can empathize with. None of that requires her to be good though. The Anti-villain is a trope for a reason.
I think we are talking at cross-purposes.
Empathy requires that you understand what someone else feels. Its not the same thing as feeling to assist or intervene on their behalf, but it is the first step. I quote:
The term "empathy" is used to describe a wide range of experiences. Emotion researchers generally define empathy as the ability to sense other people's emotions, coupled with the ability to imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling.

Contemporary researchers often differentiate between two types of empathy: "Affective empathy" refers to the sensations and feelings we get in response to others' emotions; this can include mirroring what that person is feeling, or just feeling stressed when we detect another's fear or anxiety. "Cognitive empathy," sometimes called "perspective taking," refers to our ability to identify and understand other people's emotions. Studies suggest that people with autism spectrum disorders have a hard time empathizing.

Empathy seems to have deep roots in our brains and bodies, and in our evolutionary history. Elementary forms of empathy have been observed in our primate relatives, in dogs, and even in rats. Empathy has been associated with two different pathways in the brain, and scientists have speculated that some aspects of empathy can be traced to mirror neurons, cells in the brain that fire when we observe someone else perform an action in much the same way that they would fire if we performed that action ourselves. Research has also uncovered evidence of a genetic basis to empathy, though studies suggest that people can enhance (or restrict) their natural empathic abilities.

Having empathy doesn't necessarily mean we'll want to help someone in need, though it's often a vital first step toward compassionate action.
Empathy Definition | What Is Empathy
Thats the definition I've been working on.

Evil? No. The giveaway remains Uriel's willingness to work with her. He doesnt work with evil people.
Misguided, mistaken? Yes. Evil no.
On an alignment chart Mab would probably rank somwhere between Lawful Neutral and True Neutral.

Mab is not threatening Lydia, she is threatening Lydia's father to make her sign herself into lifelong service.
I really doubt any prosecutur would do that and if he did it would still be wrong.
That is wrong, I think.

Molly is exacting revenge/a sentence on Arawn and offering to commute it if Lydia comes to works for her.
This is a sentence there is no argument that Arawn earned. Mab isnt picking on some innocent here.
Even if Lydia doesnt accept, the sentence is still carried out and the Elder Mantle returns to Mab to give out at her leisure.

That's an explanation, not an excuse.
Molly has the values of a 21st century human and she should judge Mab accordingly, not by the mores of the 12th century.
We are also in 21st century human societies and will and should vote and argue accordingly.

Just because it makes sense for Mab to act in a certain way due to her life-experience or her Mantle does not mean the action is morally acceptable.
Molly is old enough to understand that cultural differences matter.
If you blunder into the supernatural world with 21st century morality and ignore the cultural mores, you are halfway to disaster.

See Harry's codeswitching between the mortal world, where he goes to jail because cops made a mistake, and the supernatural, where he kills Fae and vampires as warning shots.
Id like words with whoever did the whole stupid maiden/mother/crone setup though, there seems to be no reason for it beyond tradition.
I believe thats a factor of the patron who gave the Fae Courts the power to operate as the Guardians: Hecate.
Also the Fates/Norns.

Game it out.

There are two enemy combatants left. Evil Bob/The sub and Corpsetaker.

Corpsetaker is already running from Arawn. Taking both of them out of the equation.

Which leaves Lydia, Gard and Molly to deal with the Sub.

Molly ends this turn standing right next to Dresden, guarding him if he gets shot at.

We have seen Lydia block the cannon.

Gard is also free to act and not stupid. If she can block a cannonball, she'll be aggressive. Else she'll go for cover.
Behind Lydia or Molly.

And then it's over.
1)Corpsetaker running because Kattrin is dead and she is outnumbered can change very quickly if Dresden goes down.
Thats a very valuable body if you're a ghost.

2)We know nothing about what other defenses are in this place and can be triggered.
For all we know Evil Bob can blow up the submarine by exploding its magically simulated magazines. I will remind you that despite losing the fight underground, Corpsetaker still managed to call up enough spectres to cripple Michael, which is why he's resting at home.

3)Why are you assuming that Arawn is our friend?
Dude has no bona fides we can trust besides being Lydia's dad. He might believe his personal safety and his daughter's are best secured by killing the fuck out of everyone else here once Dresden goes down.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, nothing more, nothing less.
 
3)Why are you assuming that Arawn is our friend?
Dude has no bona fides we can trust besides being Lydia's dad. He might believe his personal safety and his daughter's are best secured by killing the fuck out of everyone else here once Dresden goes down.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, nothing more, nothing less.
Because Lydia will have words for him if he even considers that.

You give Mab too much benefit of the doubt while giving none at all to Arawn.
 
Why are you assuming that Arawn is our friend?
Dude has no bona fides we can trust besides being Lydia's dad. He might believe his personal safety and his daughter's are best secured by killing the fuck out of everyone else here once Dresden goes down.
We do know, by WoG, that he seems to be going after Capri right now.
That's all we need of him, with that being the case it's everyone else vs Evil Bob.
 
That's an explanation, not an excuse.
Molly has the values of a 21st century human and she should judge Mab accordingly, not by the mores of the 12th century.
We are also in 21st century human societies and will and should vote and argue accordingly.
I feel like there's a bit of a sleight of hand in that last line.
No matter how we argue, that is still arguing as someone in 21st century human societies, because we are in 21st century human societies. Like, I can argue America needs to start executing two thousand people a year (it has twenty thousand murders a year, 10% of those should result in executing the offender), but do you think that is "accordingly"?
 
I think we are talking at cross-purposes.
Empathy requires that you understand what someone else feels. Its not the same thing as feeling to assist or intervene on their behalf, but it is the first step. I quote:

Thats the definition I've been working on.

Evil? No. The giveaway remains Uriel's willingness to work with her. He doesnt work with evil people.
Misguided, mistaken? Yes. Evil no.
On an alignment chart Mab would probably rank somwhere between Lawful Neutral and True Neutral.

I do not think Mab has that reflexive 'put yourself in the place of a person in pain' reaction, she can understand it rationally but as she cannot sympathize with others she is the archetypal heartless ice queen. The appeal to Uriel is problematic since she also worked with Anduriel. I think that is a wash generally.
 
[X] Focus on finishing off that sub
- [X] Tell Harry "If you try to summon I will knock you out before the first syllable. Therefore you cannot summon, capiche?"
 
Mab will still flay him if he does not actively try.
Maybe, but she will flay him more if he doesn't do what he promised. He is going to defy her anyway, due to white knighting. Having an excuse means he will suffer less than if he just defied her. He can honestly say he was prevented from summoning her and Mab can't ignore that he's IS being honest.
 
Mab will still flay him if he does not actively try.
Harry specifically made his deal to do so when he reasonably could, not when he first saw Arawn.

This is relevant because the term reasonable can be argued over in negotiations, and worked around during them. If there's no term for it, or it's so strict that he needs to do so right this second, then knocking him out won't matter. He'll just get punished for breaking the oath by failure instead of betrayal.

He's also much better suited to deal with the fallout than us. Right now we have one field in which we can do a better job defending ourselves; direct face blending combat. If Man chooses any other route, or simply skips the small fry we can take, then we're in serious trouble.

Harry is a grown man, and pretty clever over all, let's not treat him like a child who's opinions and abilities don't matter.
 
He's also much better suited to deal with the fallout than us. Right now we have one field in which we can do a better job defending ourselves; direct face blending combat. If Man chooses any other route, or simply skips the small fry we can take, then we're in serious trouble.

Harry is a grown man, and pretty clever over all, let's not treat him like a child who's opinions and abilities don't matter.
He already has a big debt to Winter.
That makes it much easier to mess with him.

We owe Mab or her minions nothing, that puts us in a much stronger position.
 
Y'all are overly hung up on Mab punishing Harry for failure here. Mab is a Grade A bitch and completely heartless, but she's not stupid. She has been grooming Harry as an asset for a while now, and that can only continue so long as Harry doesn't just say "Fuck it!" and commits suicide by Winter Queen , which he might very well do if she pushes him too far.

She won't ruin a powerful and uniquely gifted asset over a relatively minor issue like this, and from her POV, this is most definitely a minor issue.
 
Y'all are overly hung up on Mab punishing Harry for failure here. Mab is a Grade A bitch and completely heartless, but she's not stupid. She has been grooming Harry as an asset for a while now, and that can only continue so long as Harry doesn't just say "Fuck it!" and commits suicide by Winter Queen , which he might very well do if she pushes him too far.

She won't ruin a powerful and uniquely gifted asset over a relatively minor issue like this, and from her POV, this is most definitely a minor issue.
I doubt she'll punish him for failure.

But she has no choice but to punish him for betrayal. Which refusing to call for her would be in her view.
 
I doubt she'll punish him for failure.

But she has no choice but to punish him for betrayal. Which refusing to call for her would be in her view.
And punishment only goes so far, because Harry will only accept so much shit before he becomes completely intractable. Again, Mab is not an idiot. "Punishment" will either be symbolic or very light, otherwise she risks making an enemy of Harry, which will ultimately force her to kill him.

A dead Harry gets her nothing but more enemies.
 
[X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
 
The big problem with any claim against mabs morality or lack thereof remain the freaking Outer Gates. Assuming we have for a moment no means to change these circumstances any time soon or any way to reach who or whatever is responsible for things being this fucked up, the point is simply that theres constantly a massive supernatural war being fought, and if it isnt, the world ends.

So having someone mono-focused on keeping that going, while seeing everyone and everything including themselves as disposable assets for it, is not good, but im not sure its in general evil or wrong in any way, when the war would be lost otherwise.

Id like words with whoever did the whole stupid maiden/mother/crone setup though, there seems to be no reason for it beyond tradition.
Good chances it was formed by cutting some being into different components.
 
Good chances it was formed by cutting some being into different components.
Or it is a deliberate escalation of power in three roles to give winter various vectors through which to act along the power/restriction axis. The maiden is least restricted and least powerful. She runs around the world doing stuff. The Mother is the middle ground between power and restriction. She is doing stuff, and powerful stuff, but is very tied up in her role. The Hag is most powerful of all, but so tied to her role that she can barely act outside of being Winter's nuclear bomb strategic option.
 
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