[X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
If nothing else, we should plan to either give the mantle to someone else or to give Mab the means to do so. Leaving the mantle unclaimed would seem to be something that would continue to cause issues for the future.
Wait.
Oh no.
Would the mantle of Winter Knight be mutually exclusive with this mantle?
I hope that Harry doesn't decide to do anything so rash…
Wait.
Oh no.
Would the mantle of Winter Knight be mutually exclusive with this mantle?
I hope that Harry doesn't decide to do anything so rash…
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Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
We're years away from the events that lead to Harry taking on the Mantle of Winter Knight, and the chances of us not butterflying that out of the timeline are very slim.
@DragonParadox can we get a ruling on what knocking Harry out actually entails?
Is there a special rule for this , or are we basically going to fill his track with nonlethal damage and hope for the best?
You're not wrong about the touch of the supernatural, but we're still talking about people here. They're not going to universally lose all interest in their prior affiliation. Which means an instant does of high grade supernatural power into the human world with no prep.
Doing bad things to bad people isn't an inherent good.
Edit:
To emphasize my point: to become a Solar 'all ' you need to do is score an interesting win in a caste appropriate category. There's no moral judgment attached; hell, the night caste explicitly considers being an assassin a viable cause for exaltation.
You can be a hero to your community and be horribly exploiting someone else's. You can become a war hero fighting an unjust war.
Now unleash hundreds of these things to pick out the shiniest examples of humanity they can find with no regard to why they're shining.
"The world is screwed, but it's okay because our guys are doing it" isn't a constructive position.
Is there a special rule for this , or are we basically going to fill his track with nonlethal damage and hope for the best?
So what, as long as they kill some monsters it doesn't matter what else they do? If they run about killing monsters, but do it so they can establish their own empires or settle grudges that leave ruin in their wake they aren't an improvement just because they're human.
You're not wrong about the touch of the supernatural, but we're still talking about people here. They're not going to universally lose all interest in their prior affiliation. Which means an instant does of high grade supernatural power into the human world with no prep.
Doing bad things to bad people isn't an inherent good.
Edit:
To emphasize my point: to become a Solar 'all ' you need to do is score an interesting win in a caste appropriate category. There's no moral judgment attached; hell, the night caste explicitly considers being an assassin a viable cause for exaltation.
You can be a hero to your community and be horribly exploiting someone else's. You can become a war hero fighting an unjust war.
Now unleash hundreds of these things to pick out the shiniest examples of humanity they can find with no regard to why they're shining.
"The world is screwed, but it's okay because our guys are doing it" isn't a constructive position.
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[X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
- Location
- Virginia
[X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
- Location
- washington
he didn't really rape any women thats more a dc comics thing he did sack some cities though. at least not in most versions of his tales that I can remember you know greeks and their seven other telling of the same story and all.
Plus the killing his family was (at least in the versions I'm familiar with) while under a curse of madness from Hera, so not his fault.
Though he did kill others in a fit of rage or no controlling his strength enough.
Last time Solar's fought each other time broke. Without an viable way to find and social new Exalted into a unified way of thinking, more Exalted just means more enemies.
1)No he was not under any form of duress. This was explicitly established by Bob.
He was king of the Ankou and looking for protection as the times changed.
HE picked Winter.
Other gods and spirits stepped back from mortal society, or just blended into mortal society.
We've seen Valkyries as mercs, Twylyth Teg as barkeeps, naagloshii as supernatural hitmen, a Finnish demigod first as a Kemmler ally and then as a Winter-affiliated lawyer after getting kicked out of his mother's court, a Japanese dreameater as a medical resident, and Butcher has suggested that we will see Thor in professional wrestling in a future book.
Others are still out there; we see the loa being called on in ritual as prophetic spirits.
2)We do know that because thats what is being proposed right now; he dies and his successor revives him.
And if Mab was proposing it, we know it will work.
We also know that Mab's predecessor gave up the Mantle and moved on; we dont know the details.
3)No, its neither slavery nor adopting a janissary.
It is, hovever, very much signing fealty to a feudal power. Or accession to a modern nationstate. That comes with rights and responsibilities, and very few of them allow any takebacks. The United States certainly doesnt.
4)Thats not true.
The Leanansidhe was infected by Nemesis, and was thus frozen in place in the heart of her power to cure her. Nothing said or seen about torture. Lea is a creature of Winter; she isnt human, and ice does not bother her as it would a vanilla human.
5)Thats not true either.
Mab does not do brainwashing of people she recruits. Its literally counterproductive to her needs; when she goes recruiting outside Winter, she needs autonomous motivated agents who she doesnt have to babysit while she does the rest of her job.
If brainwashing was a thing, Arawn would not have been able to rebel.
She would not have so much trouble with Maeve, or the scheming members of her Court.
Harry would have come out of the several months of physical therapy as a Mab zealot. Ditto Molly.
I mean, I dont want Lydia to be railroaded into a deal against her will.
But that does not mean charging headlong into an avoidable fight with the Queen of Air and Darkness, or disabling an ally on a dangerous battlefield.
And "molding her to her whims" means fuckall.
Mab has two daughters she's raised herself for more than two hundred years that are nothing like she'd have preferred them to be.
Lydia is sixteen, not six. She actually gets a call on how she develop as a person, even in the worstcase scenario.
Also worth noting that he led the lesser Ankou to swear that oath. And THEN he abandoned them.
I have genuine concerns about the dude above and beyond this , and if it werent for the limited time we've had to work with, I would spend a lot more time looking into him.
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And if, on average, the best and brightest of humanity were also the least moral of humanity, I would agree, probably. But they are not. On average, humans have to be good, otherwise society couldn't exist.
The world is already screwed. Winter is only just holding the Outer Gates, while preying on humanity. Denarians are busy enacting long term apocalypse. Vampires of various kind are free to prey on mortals. Humans are the bottom of the food chain for all that they are beloved children of White God.
As I stated before - even without preparation I would consider breaking open the Black Vault to improve overall situation long term. Cause chaos short term, yes, but long term it would improve the state of reality. And I am not arguing to do this without preparation. Spread agents all over the world who would know what to look for. Warn interested parties. Stack the deck, so those newly exalted Solars will have visitations from angels, will run into White Council Wardens in good standing (but not into Wardens in the process of chopping someone's head off). Game the google search algorithms so queries like "I started glowing gold, what do I do" would redirect to you. Etc.
Not a DC comics thing
And you didnt sack cities in antiquity without the sexual assault and kidnap of women and children.
No Geneva Convention back then.
Current Tally:
- Location
- washington
well yeah he isn't personally noted to rape anyone though others did the raping. Just cause he sacked a city didn't mean he raped a bunch of women during it.
The one woman he raped in myths was also said in other versions to be willing heracles is not noted often for his rape. Hes noted for his rage hes killed people hes cared for, those teaching him, sacking a city that didn't pay him, etc etc. Not saying he didn't do bad shit he just didn't really rape anyone notably other heroes did notably rape people as parts of their myths.
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Taking Lydia is very, very explicitly stated to be a way to get revenge against her father. Her continued service to Mab is intended to bring pain to her father. That has been stated in the text. Her situation is not that of her father at the time he gave his oaths and sold himself to Mab for protection (which, yes, was duress).
Mab doesn't do it routinely, I could agree with this, with a note that mantles themselves do long-term brainwashing.
The proposal is that Mab raises Lydia's father, not Lydia using her new power:
It wouldn't be up to Lydia, even with a mantle, if her father comes back. It would be up to Mab.
Auge. Deianeira (in some version of the myth at least). That's me doing a rush job.
- Location
- washington
Both of those in multiple versions weren't raped. Not to even mention their stories aren't nearly that prevalent. Heracles in most versions isn't a rapist hes done bad shit the rape isn't one.
I'm not calling him a paragon hes not done almost any actual rape in any myths though.
Edit: also for people saying sacking means rape no it doesn't like sure those in the sacking rape not everyone in the sacking raped in most sackings though. sackings sackings sackings.
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I will repeat that the sack of cities and settlements in antiquity was inevitably associated with mass sexual assault and kidnapping.
The Israelites in the Bible and their various enemies certainly did it.
Heracles myths mentions at least two women of note, and that doesnt include any other women who werent important enough to make the stories of storytellers.
For Mab its a bonus, not the aim.
And its something we've had implied that she'd give up.
Mantles do urges, not brainwashing, and we know explicitly by word of both Uriel and Mother Summer they cannot compel you.
The Mantle in question predates the Ankou pledging to Winter.
Any urges it brings are its own.
1)Mab keeps her word. Always.
2)Its also explicitly said that negotiating with Mab is an option:
Again, I've been worrying about our Essence levels for a reason.
Because we'll need social Excellencies.
This is where we have the primary disagreement. I consider that for Mab getting Lydia as a servant is a bonus, and the aim is the revenge. If it wasn't so, Mab would have reclaimed Ankou's mantle much earlier - she knew where it was, she knew about Lydia being born, how old she was, etc. This means that she could have gotten Ankou for a long time. She didn't. Revenge is at least as motivating to her in this case as getting an old agent back.
Long term conditioning is a thing. Yes, it can be resisted, but so can be almost everything else.
How are you connecting these two things? Yes, Mab keeps her word. Her plan was to raise Lydia's father in exchange for Lydia's magically compelled perpetual service and obedience.
And yes, we could negotiate with her. It's not guaranteed that we would have succeeded. But we could try. Mab is pragmatic, if we offered her enough, like "a service for a year and a day" or something like that, she would likely take the deal.
- Location
- washington
okay yes not everyone in said sacking raped though like in any period and both of said women in multiple myths are also listed as willing.
also heracles is literally a story made character literally only the stuff in said stories happens.
- Location
- washington
mab by word of jim is a creature of logic revenge is secondary the revenge aspect is clearly about image not just for revenge.
Revenge in this case is a completely logical political move. Mab had a servant / vassal try to escape. Mab has to demonstrate that not only such an escape is impossible, but that the consequences of trying far outweigh the possible benefits. Moreover, she has to make it about not just the Ankou, but also his children, to prevent those who are ready to sacrifice themselves but get their (future) children away from Winter's grasp, from trying to do so.
Revenge here is PR. It is politics, aimed at her other subjects. "Don't even think about leaving your duty. Not even death would stop me from claiming you back".
- Location
- washington
yes you said for revenge though I doubt its an emotional response its a political one.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If I can throw in my two cents for how I want this situation resolved? The motivation behind it is selfish, but I want Lydia to not be forced to serve Mab and for her and her father to not be forced to leave town and flee, so that she can keep dating our brother and join our Circle, since we don't have any other Exalted to form a Circle with and she's closer than our other, mortal, options and therefore more likely to keep up with us.
It's, again, a purely selfish motive of wanting to have her with us while we run around taking over Undertown and become the Dread Lady of Chicago and other Exalted things, and I don't know exactly how we're going to resolve the current situation in order to actually get to that point, but that's what I want.
It's, again, a purely selfish motive of wanting to have her with us while we run around taking over Undertown and become the Dread Lady of Chicago and other Exalted things, and I don't know exactly how we're going to resolve the current situation in order to actually get to that point, but that's what I want.
Nope.
Nobody does retribution like the Queen of Air and Darkness, but its explicitly not how she does business.
I quote:
The revenge is not a priority, else the plan would not be death, it would be hanging on a tree besides Slate.Cold Days said:
Instead of being a bargaining chip for recruiting his daughter.
If this was of any reliable import, Arawn would not have been able to go rogue.
Maeve would not be the dilettante she is.
Mantles affect you, but do not overestimate their influence.
1) Because Mab came to Dresden with this instead of sending an assassin.
Her Winter Knight candidate. The guy who set off the Vampire War on a matter of principle. Who killed the Summer Lady in her name. Who invaded Arctis Tor to rescue Molly maybe four or five weeks ago.
She KNOWS his hot buttons.
If she was unwilling to give this up, she wouldnt have let him anywhere near this case.
2)Nothing is guaranteed. Nothing.
We could hit Dresden and he'd die.
He could fall unconscious and be possessed by Corpsetaker and used to blast the whole room. EvilBob could set off the submarines magically filled magazines or fuel tanks and murder everybody in the hundred yard radius in the explosion.
But talking to Mab is the only option that actually solves this, instead of postponing it fot a couple days or weeks or months as Arawn goes back on the run. And we actually need a properly supported necromancer hunter out there, because the White Council that would take up the slack is at war.
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This strongly, very strongly, depends on Ankou's priorities. For him it's entirely possible that living free while his daughter is stuck in Winter's service is a harsher punishment and worse torture than hanging on a tree. We don't have enough information to tell.
Mab's primary agents (Lea, current Winter knight, her daughter) are all unable to act at the moment. The situation is very time sensitive and politically sensitive. It's entirely possible that Mab didn't have much choice. Her opponents included the Thule society, and those have members that avoided Odin for a long time. They had a voice in the whole situation.
Also, yes, she'd probably give it up. For additional concessions from Dresden. Hell, "take the winter knight mantle and serve me, and I leave the girl alone" could well be her backup plan. Or at least one of them.
Please note that I am voting to deal with the submarine. I figure we'd have at least a few minutes between "fight ends" and "Harry has to call Mab or be considered an oathbreaker". We could speedtalk Matthews and Ankou into a mantle transfer.
- Location
- Germany
I really doubt that concussing Harry is a problem.
He's a Wizard, as long as we don't do anything intentionally hard to heal, he will heal up perfectly.
That's just a perk of his very nature.
He's a Wizard, as long as we don't do anything intentionally hard to heal, he will heal up perfectly.
That's just a perk of his very nature.