Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

1) This is not a vanilla mortal, its a thousand year old Valkyrie necromancer with preptime.
With preptime Cowl tanked the Darkhallow backfire to his face. Holt came to Gard's town after months of preptime to eat the Ankou. It defies belief that she didnt prepare for surviving personal attack specially given how the Chicago Outfit rolls.

2)She's on the Thule Society board.
She's not lower down on the org chart, they are corporate equals in the C-suite. Namshiel is a Denarian; they dont do charity.
If she's a peer, its because he thinks she is one.

3)She's a necromancer. Why are we assuming she cant put up a shield at all?
Dresden shielded himself and Lara Raith against the kersplosion of the Raith Deeps in White Night.
Gard expended just one rune every time Cantrev-lord Mag tried to hit her with magic.
1) Gard is also a thousand year old Valkyrie sorcerer with prep time. She hasn't gone full sith, but she should still be in her weight class. Especially since Gard should know better than to hunt her sister alone if she's likely to be a necromantic god that she can't actually beat. She could be wrong on that, but her judgement should be pretty sound here.

2) Do we actually know that? We got her name on a list of people that Gorfel considered peer or better. He's middle management, and she's somewhere between him and Namshiel.

3) She probably can, but those aren't similar situations. Magic v. Magic situations muddle measuring the amount of the interaction that comes down to main force, but I'm inclined to believe that the white king wasn't throwing around as much damage in any single hit as getting in a worst case scenario car wreck with each hit.

Harry is a full wizard who's really good at evocation and needed to take a second to set up and brace his shield first. I think it's unlikely he could have done what he did if he didn't know it was coming. There's a reason the preferred tactic for killing wizards is sniping them even if people like Harry can block bullets with magic.

She's almost certainly going to need to rely on her passives, and if she can tank arbitrary amounts of damage using rune magic then I'm not sure how we're supposed to beat her anywhere; much less in her own territory where she can have even more stuff set up.
 
Holt came to Gard's town after months of preptime to eat the Ankou.
And she made certain that Gard wasn't there to confront her with her sisters. This means that Gard + one or two other valkyries are a credible threat to her. Underestimating an enemy is a mistake. Overestimating them is also a mistake.
2)She's on the Thule Society board.
She's not lower down on the org chart, they are corporate equals in the C-suite. Namshiel is a Denarian; they might do nepotism, but they dont do charity. If she's a peer, its because he thinks she is one.
Or because she has special talents that elevate her to that position. Her seer abilities, and time manipulation abilities, and, likely the ability to somehow eat mantles of other beings outside of Halloween make her special. They don't necessary make her not a glass cannon.
 
There's no such thing as preemptive defense in any legal framework Im aware of.
If you lie in wait for John Wayne Gacy and attempt to kill him out of hand, thats still cold blooded premeditated murder even though he is a serial killer. You might have an argument to justification, but it doesnt change what it is.

Furthermore, its worth paying attention to the caliber of people we're playing with.

Dresden did not execute Quintus Cassius out of hand in Death Masks, despite the dude being a Denarian dating back to the Roman Empire, who had been involved in the torture-murders of Father Vincent and Shiro, had tried to kill him personally via entropy curse, and was trying to instigate a magic pandemic. Only when the dude came back in Dead Beat and repeatedly tried to kill him.

And Michael is a lot more forgiving than Dresden.

We're talking about the guy who offered forgiveness to Nicodemus, the instigator of the Black Plague. Torture-murderer of Shiro. Who tried to hit his son with the Lasciel coin. And he tried to offer him redemption after Nicky sacrificed his only daughter Deirdre to acquire access to the vault with the Holy Grail.

Remember who our Mentor 5 is.
The legal definition doesn't apply in this situation, IMO. We're not planning around having to answer to a review board after the fact and we're not wearing body cams whose footage will eventually be released to the public. Katrina and her ilk need killing and we're the ones who will probably end up trying to do it. Either now or later, it's going to come down to a fight.

We're not Michael and we're not Harry. I'm getting tired of that comparison. Harry not executing Cassius was unforgivably stupid and cannot be justified except by saying that Harry suffers from a mental defect otherwise known as Too Good to Be True Protagonist Syndrome. I'll give Michael the benefit of the doubt and not call him defective simply because it's part of his God-given calling and life's work to offer redemption to the most vile, but even then I question whether or not his sword has fucked with his mind. And I also doubt just how forgiving Michael would have been if his son had actually picked up the coin.
 
1) Gard is also a thousand year old Valkyrie sorcerer with prep time. She hasn't gone full sith, but she should still be in her weight class. Especially since Gard should know better than to hunt her sister alone if she's likely to be a necromantic god that she can't actually beat. She could be wrong on that, but her judgement should be pretty sound here.

2) Do we actually know that? We got her name on a list of people that Gorfel considered peer or better. He's middle management, and she's somewhere between him and Namshiel.

3) She probably can, but those aren't similar situations. Magic v. Magic situations muddle measuring the amount of the interaction that comes down to main force, but I'm inclined to believe that the white king wasn't throwing around as much damage in any single hit as getting in a worst case scenario car wreck with each hit.

Harry is a full wizard who's really good at evocation and needed to take a second to set up and brace his shield first. I think it's unlikely he could have done what he did if he didn't know it was coming. There's a reason the preferred tactic for killing wizards is sniping them even if people like Harry can block bullets with magic.

She's almost certainly going to need to rely on her passives, and if she can tank arbitrary amounts of damage using rune magic then I'm not sure how we're supposed to beat her anywhere; much less in her own territory where she can have even more stuff set up.
1)Gard was not preparing for this potential scenario. Holt was.
Thats the problem.

2)Yes, we do.
Crown of Eyes didnt grab middle management people; note that we dont know who Lictor is.

3)It wasnt a fight he was surviving.
Marcone's mercs shipped in a ton of explosives and set them off to blow up the place in order to kill the regenerating uberghouls that Vittorio Malvora brought in. The explosion blew him literally out of the collapsing cavern and several hundred feet out into the air. I quote:
The only light was the dim scarlet glow from Cowl's gate, and everything had become blood and shadows. The eyes of dozens of ghouls burned like nearly dead coals as they turned toward us, reflecting that lurid luminescence.
"Lara," I hissed. "This cavern goes up in seventeen seconds, and there are ghouls in the tunnel out."
"Empty night," Lara swore. Her voice was thready with pain and fear. "What can I do?"
Good question. There had to be… Wait. There might be a way to survive this. I was too tired to work any magic, but…
"You can trust me," I said. "That's what you can do."
She turned her pale, beautiful, gore-smattered face to me. "Done."
"Get us to the tunnel's mouth."
"But if there are ghouls there already—"
"Hey!" I said. "Tick, tick!"
Before I'd gotten to the end of the first tick, Lara had seized me again and hauled us across the floor to the mouth of the tunnel. Behind me, Cowl was shouting something, and so was Vittorio, and the ghouls set up a howl and were running after us. Only one of the ghouls was close enough to get in the way, but Lara's wicked little wavy-bladed sword ripped straight across its eyes and left the monster momentarily stunned with pain.
Lara dumped me at the mouth of the tunnel, and I took a couple of steps back in, checking the smooth tunnel walls as I shook out my shield bracelet. That demonic flying thing of Cowl's banked around for another pass.
"What now?" Lara demanded. The ghouls were coming. They were nowhere near as fast as Lara had been, but they weren't far away.
I took a deep breath. "Now," I said. "Kiss me. I know it seems weir—"
Lara let out a single, ravenous snarl and was abruptly pressed up against me, arms sliding around my waist with sinuous, serpentine power. Her mouth met mine and . . .
. . . ohmygod.
Lara had once boasted that she could do more to me in an hour than a mortal woman could in a week. But it ain't boasting if it's true. The first, searing second of that kiss was indescribably intense. It wasn't simply the texture of her lips. It was how she moved them, and the simple, naked hunger beneath every quiver of her mouth. I knew she was a monster, and I knew she would enslave and kill me if she could, but she wanted me with a passion so pure and focused that it was intoxicating. That succubus kiss was a lie, but it made me feel, within that single moment, strong and masculine and powerful. It made me feel that I was attractive enough, strong enough, worthy enough to deserve that kind of desire.
And it made me feel lust, a primal need for sex so raw, so scorching, that I felt sure that if I didn't find expression for that need—here and now —that I would surely go insane. The fires that surged up in me weren't limited to my loins. It was simply too hot, too intense for that, and my whole body felt suddenly aflame with need. Every inch of me was suddenly supernaturally aware of Lara, in all her blood-soaked sensuality, in all her wanton desirability, pressed against me, the mostly transparent white silk of her gown doing less to conceal her nudity than the black blood of her foes.
Now., my body screamed at me. Take her. Now. Fuck the stopwatch and the bombs and the monsters. Forget everything and feel her and nothing else.
It was a close thing, but I held back enough to keep from forgetting the danger. The lust nearly killed me—but lust is an emotion, too.
I embraced that lust, allowed it to enfold me, and returned the kiss with nearly total abandon. I slid my right hand around the succubus's waist, and down, pulling her hips hard against me, feeling the amazing strength and elasticity and rondure of her body on mine.
With my left hand, I extended the shield bracelet toward the cavern, the bombs, the onrushing ghouls—and I fed that tidal force of lust through it, building up the energy I would need, some part of me shaping and directing it even as the rest of me concentrated on the mind-consuming pleasure of that single kiss.
The clocks stopped ticking.
The explosives went off.
Cleverness, determination, treachery, ruthlessness, courage, and skill took a leave of absence, while physics took over the show.
Tremendous heat and force expanded from the explosives. It swept through the cavern in an almighty sword of fire, laying low anything unfortunate enough to have remained within. I saw, for one flash-second, the outline of the ghouls, still charging us, unaware of what was about to happen, against the white-hot fireball that expanded through the chamber.
And then that blast hit my shield.
I didn't try to withstand that incredible sledgehammer of expanding force and energy. It would have shattered my shield, melted my bracelet to my wrist, and crushed me like an egg. The shield wasn't meant to do that.
Instead, I filled the space at the mouth of the cave with flexible, resilient energy, and packed layer upon layer of it behind the shield, and more of it all around us. I wasn't trying to stop the energy of the explosion.
I was trying to catch it.
There was an instant of crushing compression, and I felt the pressure on my shield like a vast and liquid weight. It flung me from my feet, and I held hard to Lara, whose arms gripped me in return. I began to tumble, blinded by the flame, and fought to hold the shield, now hardening it all around us, into a sphere, constricting it around us until we were pressed body-to-body. We hurtled up the tunnel, flung out ahead of the explosion like a ship ahead of a hurricane—or, more accurately, like a ball being fired down the barrel of a long, stony musket. The shield banged against the smooth walls, dragging more effort out of me. A single outcropping might have stopped our progress for a disastrous instant, shattering stone, shield, succubus, and shamus into one big mess. Thank God the vanity of Lara's family had made sure the walls of the tunnel were polished smooth and gleaming.

I didn't see the ghouls guarding the upper reaches of the tunnel, so much as I felt them hit the shield and be smashed aside and splattered like bugs, only to be consumed by the flood of fire washing up the tunnel after us. I don't know how fast we were going, beyond "very." The explosion flung us up the long tunnel, and out into the night air and up through the branches of a couple of trees—which shattered under the force. Then we were arcing through the night, spinning, with stars above us whipping by and a long tongue of angry flame emerging from the entrance to the Deeps below.
And all the while, I was locked in the heated ecstasy of Lara's kiss.
I lost track of what was happening somewhere near the top of the arc, right about when Lara's legs twined with mine and she ripped aside my shirt and hers to press her naked chest against me. I had just begun wondering what it was I'd forgotten about how kissing Lara was not the best idea when there was a horrible crashing sound that went on for several seconds.
We weren't moving. The shield wasn't under pressure, and I was so dizzy and tired that I couldn't string two thoughts together. I lowered the shield with a groan of relief that was lost in an answering moan of need from the succubus in my arms.
"St-stopped," I said. "Lara… st-stop."
She pressed closer, parted my lips with her tongue, and I thought that I was going to explode, when she suddenly let out a hiss and recoiled from me, a hand flying to her mouth—but not before I saw the blisters rising from the burned flesh around her lips.
I fell slowly to my back and lay there gasping in the near-dark. There were several small fires nearby. We were in a building of some kind. There were a lot of broken things.
Nothing to do with the White King.

4)We brought a paladin of the White God for a reason.
And not primarily for his swordplay.
And she made certain that Gard wasn't there to confront her with her sisters. This means that Gard + one or two other valkyries are a credible threat to her. Underestimating an enemy is a mistake. Overestimating them is also a mistake.

Or because she has special talents that elevate her to that position. Her seer abilities, and time manipulation abilities, and, likely the ability to somehow eat mantles of other beings outside of Halloween make her special. They don't necessary make her not a glass cannon.
Possible. Or just that Gard can disrupt her ritual, rendering all that investment for naught. Or even that Gard has access to the full corporate backing of Monoc Securities, including the artiste formerly known as Odin.
I dont know enough to say for sure.

Doubt that very much. It doesnt mean she is the combat equal of, say, Namshiel, just like Ancient Mai isnt necessarily the combat equal of McCoy. But you cant be a glass cannon at that level and hold power. Authority equals Asskicking is very much a trope of the Dresdenverse setting.

Remember that Listens to Wind tangles physically with naagloshii.
Ebenezar kicked Winter Knight Dresden's ass in hand to hand, when Dresden was frankly superhuman.
And Holt comes to power from the physical side of things, where Valks were supposed to be soldiers as well as sorcerers.

I expect she's more invested in survival than is evident at a glance.
 
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Stepping OOC for a moment, lemme make the Doylist argument:
There's a baby Exalt, a Knight of the Cross and a Valkyrie on our team.
Potentially, we could have added Dresden if we'd gone with Forthill. Maybe even the Ankou.

So. How much force does Kattrin Holt need to personally wield to be a combat encounter and not a stomp? Gard broke her ward and said she'd feel it, so even if she doesnt recognize the touch of her former sister, she knows there's someone with major mojo around. Enough mojo to blow through her ghoul guards. And she knows Gard is in town because Marcone is.

Yet she's coming here with only one escort.
What does it say about her personal assessment of her own strength vis a vis her former sisters?
 
1)Gard was not preparing for this potential scenario. Holt was.
Thats the problem.

2)Yes, we do.
Crown of Eyes didnt grab middle management people; note that we dont know who Lictor is.

3)It wasnt a fight he was surviving.
Marcone's mercs shipped in a ton of explosives and set them off to blow up the place in order to kill the regenerating uberghouls that Vittorio Malvora brought in. The explosion blew him literally out of the collapsing cavern and several hundred feet out into the air. I quote:
The only light was the dim scarlet glow from Cowl's gate, and everything had become blood and shadows. The eyes of dozens of ghouls burned like nearly dead coals as they turned toward us, reflecting that lurid luminescence.
"Lara," I hissed. "This cavern goes up in seventeen seconds, and there are ghouls in the tunnel out."
"Empty night," Lara swore. Her voice was thready with pain and fear. "What can I do?"
Good question. There had to be… Wait. There might be a way to survive this. I was too tired to work any magic, but…
"You can trust me," I said. "That's what you can do."
She turned her pale, beautiful, gore-smattered face to me. "Done."
"Get us to the tunnel's mouth."
"But if there are ghouls there already—"
"Hey!" I said. "Tick, tick!"
Before I'd gotten to the end of the first tick, Lara had seized me again and hauled us across the floor to the mouth of the tunnel. Behind me, Cowl was shouting something, and so was Vittorio, and the ghouls set up a howl and were running after us. Only one of the ghouls was close enough to get in the way, but Lara's wicked little wavy-bladed sword ripped straight across its eyes and left the monster momentarily stunned with pain.
Lara dumped me at the mouth of the tunnel, and I took a couple of steps back in, checking the smooth tunnel walls as I shook out my shield bracelet. That demonic flying thing of Cowl's banked around for another pass.
"What now?" Lara demanded. The ghouls were coming. They were nowhere near as fast as Lara had been, but they weren't far away.
I took a deep breath. "Now," I said. "Kiss me. I know it seems weir—"
Lara let out a single, ravenous snarl and was abruptly pressed up against me, arms sliding around my waist with sinuous, serpentine power. Her mouth met mine and . . .
. . . ohmygod.
Lara had once boasted that she could do more to me in an hour than a mortal woman could in a week. But it ain't boasting if it's true. The first, searing second of that kiss was indescribably intense. It wasn't simply the texture of her lips. It was how she moved them, and the simple, naked hunger beneath every quiver of her mouth. I knew she was a monster, and I knew she would enslave and kill me if she could, but she wanted me with a passion so pure and focused that it was intoxicating. That succubus kiss was a lie, but it made me feel, within that single moment, strong and masculine and powerful. It made me feel that I was attractive enough, strong enough, worthy enough to deserve that kind of desire.
And it made me feel lust, a primal need for sex so raw, so scorching, that I felt sure that if I didn't find expression for that need—here and now —that I would surely go insane. The fires that surged up in me weren't limited to my loins. It was simply too hot, too intense for that, and my whole body felt suddenly aflame with need. Every inch of me was suddenly supernaturally aware of Lara, in all her blood-soaked sensuality, in all her wanton desirability, pressed against me, the mostly transparent white silk of her gown doing less to conceal her nudity than the black blood of her foes.
Now., my body screamed at me. Take her. Now. Fuck the stopwatch and the bombs and the monsters. Forget everything and feel her and nothing else.
It was a close thing, but I held back enough to keep from forgetting the danger. The lust nearly killed me—but lust is an emotion, too.
I embraced that lust, allowed it to enfold me, and returned the kiss with nearly total abandon. I slid my right hand around the succubus's waist, and down, pulling her hips hard against me, feeling the amazing strength and elasticity and rondure of her body on mine.
With my left hand, I extended the shield bracelet toward the cavern, the bombs, the onrushing ghouls—and I fed that tidal force of lust through it, building up the energy I would need, some part of me shaping and directing it even as the rest of me concentrated on the mind-consuming pleasure of that single kiss.
The clocks stopped ticking.
The explosives went off.
Cleverness, determination, treachery, ruthlessness, courage, and skill took a leave of absence, while physics took over the show.
Tremendous heat and force expanded from the explosives. It swept through the cavern in an almighty sword of fire, laying low anything unfortunate enough to have remained within. I saw, for one flash-second, the outline of the ghouls, still charging us, unaware of what was about to happen, against the white-hot fireball that expanded through the chamber.
And then that blast hit my shield.
I didn't try to withstand that incredible sledgehammer of expanding force and energy. It would have shattered my shield, melted my bracelet to my wrist, and crushed me like an egg. The shield wasn't meant to do that.
Instead, I filled the space at the mouth of the cave with flexible, resilient energy, and packed layer upon layer of it behind the shield, and more of it all around us. I wasn't trying to stop the energy of the explosion.
I was trying to catch it.
There was an instant of crushing compression, and I felt the pressure on my shield like a vast and liquid weight. It flung me from my feet, and I held hard to Lara, whose arms gripped me in return. I began to tumble, blinded by the flame, and fought to hold the shield, now hardening it all around us, into a sphere, constricting it around us until we were pressed body-to-body. We hurtled up the tunnel, flung out ahead of the explosion like a ship ahead of a hurricane—or, more accurately, like a ball being fired down the barrel of a long, stony musket. The shield banged against the smooth walls, dragging more effort out of me. A single outcropping might have stopped our progress for a disastrous instant, shattering stone, shield, succubus, and shamus into one big mess. Thank God the vanity of Lara's family had made sure the walls of the tunnel were polished smooth and gleaming.

I didn't see the ghouls guarding the upper reaches of the tunnel, so much as I felt them hit the shield and be smashed aside and splattered like bugs, only to be consumed by the flood of fire washing up the tunnel after us. I don't know how fast we were going, beyond "very." The explosion flung us up the long tunnel, and out into the night air and up through the branches of a couple of trees—which shattered under the force. Then we were arcing through the night, spinning, with stars above us whipping by and a long tongue of angry flame emerging from the entrance to the Deeps below.
And all the while, I was locked in the heated ecstasy of Lara's kiss.
I lost track of what was happening somewhere near the top of the arc, right about when Lara's legs twined with mine and she ripped aside my shirt and hers to press her naked chest against me. I had just begun wondering what it was I'd forgotten about how kissing Lara was not the best idea when there was a horrible crashing sound that went on for several seconds.
We weren't moving. The shield wasn't under pressure, and I was so dizzy and tired that I couldn't string two thoughts together. I lowered the shield with a groan of relief that was lost in an answering moan of need from the succubus in my arms.
"St-stopped," I said. "Lara… st-stop."
She pressed closer, parted my lips with her tongue, and I thought that I was going to explode, when she suddenly let out a hiss and recoiled from me, a hand flying to her mouth—but not before I saw the blisters rising from the burned flesh around her lips.
I fell slowly to my back and lay there gasping in the near-dark. There were several small fires nearby. We were in a building of some kind. There were a lot of broken things.
Nothing to do with the White King.

4)We brought a paladin of the White God for a reason.
And not primarily for his swordplay.
1) But Gard does have the experience to know how the game is played, if the odds are that obviously against us I don't think she'd be running around with us. She'd be going home to get a murder squad to back her up.

2) this is the question we asked:
"What are the identities of Gorfel's brotherhood?"

And the answer was a list of names without organizational titles. Whatever's going on with Lictor, these guys are the Garfel+ club, not a circle of equals.

3) For some reason I mixed up who you were referring to Gard fighting. The first of those notes was related to that, the second was about the explosion and how Harry handled it.

Edit:

Actually, @DragonParadox since Molly has three craft dots, a mechanical specialization, and has seen the specific car we're talking about, would it be possible for us to get her best estimate of how dangerous a wreck like this could actually get? Not the full mechanics or anything, just some scale for how hard we can likely hit to help evaluate if it's worth taking the shot.
 
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What does it say about her personal assessment of her own strength vis a vis her former sisters?
Gard specifically thinks that Katrina considers two or more valkyries assaulting her at the same time an unacceptable threat to her life:
"The lightest touch can break the spell thankfully, anything more than a raindrop. That is the reason why it is a fool's errand to attack her without trusted allies at your back and likely the reason why she decided to come to Chicago now. None of my sisters are available to help until Tuesday at the earliest. Perhaps Katrina thought I would not dare confront her with only mortal allies at my back, or perhaps she hoped so. Katrina never had much respect for mortals."
Gard also considers herself to be Katrina's better outside of her "one weird trick":
"How is she in a fight without the time-warping bu... er nonsense?" you ask, as though you had tripped over your tongue. To be fair you do that from time to time, but now you get the sense hat seeming young is one way to get Gard to open up a bit more.

"Skilled enough to hold me off for a while, not skilled enough to best me." The tone makes you suspect she had the opportunity to test that at some point.
She also doesn't know that we are an Exalt, or what an exalt is. She is surprisingly more prepared to face Michael than us, as she has crossed blades with White God's servants before.

And she's dismissive of mortals. So, this might at least partially be over-confidence on her part. And we don't know if the passenger brought as a backup was all she had, or a deliberate decision on her part, or if it's even here to back her up.
 
Actually, @DragonParadox since Molly has three craft dots, a mechanical specialization, and has seen the specific car we're talking about, would it be possible for us to get her best estimate of how dangerous a wreck like this could actually get? Not the full mechanics or anything, just some scale for how hard we can likely hit to help evaluate if it's worth taking the shot.

Depends on how much you are willing to inflict collateral damage. with control of the fuel and air injection to the engine you could make it go up like a car in a Hollywood action movie... but there is no guarantee you would be able to do that without collateral damage on the path Katrina is taking. alternatively you could just have Black Rider cut the breaks and accelerate on the longest stretch of road they can find and try to smash into something solid. That would most likely in Molly's estimation be survivable to someone who is as tough as Gard, but between the paramedics and the cops it is almost guaranteed to slow her down... or get a manhunt on her with would also be inconvenient.
 
Depends on how much you are willing to inflict collateral damage. with control of the fuel and air injection to the engine you could make it go up like a car in a Hollywood action movie... but there is no guarantee you would be able to do that without collateral damage on the path Katrina is taking. alternatively you could just have Black Rider cut the breaks and accelerate on the longest stretch of road they can find and try to smash into something solid. That would most likely in Molly's estimation be survivable to someone who is as tough as Gard, but between the paramedics and the cops it is almost guaranteed to slow her down... or get a manhunt on her with would also be inconvenient.

Can't we do both, crash into something solid and go up as a fireball at the same time?

That should minimise collateral damage, as very solid things right next to roads are usually far enough away from other road users that they should be out of the blast radius.
 
Let me put it this way, does she know we are a baby Exalt? Does she know Gard is here along with a Knight of the Cross?
OOC, the GM balances encounters for fun.
So if you're throwing a party of three at two people, what does it say about the two?

IC, she knows we put together enough force to blow through the mooks up top( when the ward triggerd, she will have called, and gotten no reply) and the ghoul pack underground in order to get to the cell.
And the spectre didnt report back either, so it got blown away as well.

Put together, that spells a pretty capable person or party. One she doesnt know much about.
But she's racing down here with only apparently one escort.
She could have more people following her, but no evidence of it.

1) But Gard does have the experience to know how the game is played, if the odds are that obviously against us I don't think she'd be running around with us. She'd be going home to get a murder squad to back her up.

2) this is the question we asked:


And the answer was a list of names without organizational titles. Whatever's going on with Lictor, these guys are the Garfel+ club, not a circle of equals.

3) For some reason I mixed up who you were referring to Gard fighting. The first of those notes was related to that, the second was about the explosion and how Harry handled it.

Edit:

Actually, @DragonParadox since Molly has three craft dots, a mechanical specialization, and has seen the specific car we're talking about, would it be possible for us to get her best estimate of how dangerous a wreck like this could actually get? Not the full mechanics or anything, just some scale for how hard we can likely hit to help evaluate if it's worth taking the shot.
1)Gard is working off dated information, and told us so; Monoc lost track of Holt for seventeen years.
We have a baseline for what Holt's capabilities were at the tail end of the 20th century, not a snapshot of current power levels.
Thats worth keeping in mind.

2)The GM has repeatedly said that our power is not a genie, its actually trying to be helpful.
The lack of organizational titles is what makes it pretty clear that the list is of peers, in my opinion.
That and the sheer age of most of the names there.

3) Holt was referring to using the Capriocorpus as bait, who was canonically in the same general weight class as Cowl as of Dead Beat. As in, if things had gone wrong she'd have been the one to complete the Darkhallow successfully.
That also helps benchmark her.
 
Stepping OOC for a moment, lemme make the Doylist argument:
There's a baby Exalt, a Knight of the Cross and a Valkyrie on our team.
Potentially, we could have added Dresden if we'd gone with Forthill. Maybe even the Ankou.

So. How much force does Kattrin Holt need to personally wield to be a combat encounter and not a stomp? Gard broke her ward and said she'd feel it, so even if she doesnt recognize the touch of her former sister, she knows there's someone with major mojo around. Enough mojo to blow through her ghoul guards. And she knows Gard is in town because Marcone is.

Yet she's coming here with only one escort.
What does it say about her personal assessment of her own strength vis a vis her former sisters?
We had a chance to turn on CCC which puts Molly into a fighter on par with war gods, able to parry twice a turn while attacking. If we could not beat her with CCC on then it is outright impossible to beat with anything less then actual nukes. Also action economy favor the larger number of people 2 against 3 heavily favors the 3.
 
Can't we do both, crash into something solid and go up as a fireball at the same time?

That should minimise collateral damage, as very solid things right next to roads are usually far enough away from other road users that they should be out of the blast radius.

That is a bit more tricky, the crash might damage the systems needed to fire the engine just the right way so I would have to roll for it.
 
I would assume the chain of events is disable breaks -> accelerate at a wall -> explode engine -> THEN crash. You blow up the engine before impact so everything is not wrecked and the engine is already running at full blast for maximum boom.

Hmm... that could work yeah, still risk of collateral damage though if you guys choose to do it, between the runaway car and the explosion in the middle of a busy city.
 
So if you're throwing a party of three at two people, what does it say about the two?
That is the thing though, we could have NOT brought Gard into it. Meaning in such a scenario would the GM have to nerf Katrina? Or was not talking to Gard a trap option? As Katrina would have murdered us otherwise?

So, no. Gard is here because we contacted her and rolled well. That would not be taken into consideration, if anything, Katrina bringing that Zombie with her is proof that the game is balanced with Gard/Mitchel in mind.
 
Not quite a tied vote, but it's close. Any other voters want to weigh in? DP might delay closing the vote for a while since it is so tight.
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Sep 14, 2022 at 8:44 AM, finished with 189 posts and 20 votes.

  • [X]Write-in: Inform others of Kattrin coming, and how far away she is. Go after Lydia first, then find alternate path to surface.
    -[X]Crown of Eyes: Plot path to the current location and destination of Daniel Carpenter's current girlfriend.
    -[X]If Gard gives number for Hendricks' burner phone, type message for Clippy to tell Bunny to send a text message to Hendricks updating him on status and plans, giving him a description of the car, and to keep an eye out for the occupants.
    [X]STUNT: You pocket your phone as you get off your knee. "Holt's car's coming this way. Forty five minutes out at current speeds. And she's bringing a friend." Abrupt silence meets your declaration, and you take a moment to dust off your knee. "Cant tell what it is, just that its human shaped and fits in a car seat, but has no life signs. Time we get Cindy" a nod"out of here." You pause, mind racing, as you finally make a connection. "Wait....Holt's a seer isnt she?" you say slowly. "Could she predict the Ankou's daughter would...." The expression on Gard's face gives you your answer. "Fff...udge. Alright everyone, change of plans."
    [X] Black Rider Will Ride Again!
    -[X] Assuming he can confirm that Katrina is driving, give Black Rider the command to crash his current chassis into a nearby solid object, such as a large tree, stationary garbage truck, sturdy wall, etc. at maximum acceleration with a specific aim toward injuring Katrina as seriously as possible, perhaps even killing her, so long as doing so doesn't endanger bystanders. Going over the side of a bridge would be a good alternative, if an opportunity presents itself.
    --[X] Black Rider will interface with Clippy, using information about this model of car and automobile accidents in general pulled from the internet, to insure the crash is as severe as he can manage. He will also send Clippy all of his GPS data so we can retrace Katrina's route.
    ---[X] Before initiating the crash, he is to lock the doors, prevent Katrina from braking, prevent the seat belts from properly engaging, and trigger all of the airbags a moment before impact in order to render them ineffective.
    ----[X] Assure Black Rider that we will find him a new chassis soon.
    -[X] Using the extra time this buys us, we will try to locate Lydia while also searching for another exit from Undertown. Michael will keep a close guard on Cindy for the time being. Ask Gard if she has any quick and dirty means to keep Katrina from easily tracking Cindy's location, assuming she probably has hair or even blood samples from the girl.
    [X] We need to find another way out to the city, we can't get into a fight while Cindy is with us
 
The legal definition doesn't apply in this situation, IMO. We're not planning around having to answer to a review board after the fact and we're not wearing body cams whose footage will eventually be released to the public. Katrina and her ilk need killing and we're the ones who will probably end up trying to do it. Either now or later, it's going to come down to a fight.

We're not Michael and we're not Harry. I'm getting tired of that comparison. Harry not executing Cassius was unforgivably stupid and cannot be justified except by saying that Harry suffers from a mental defect otherwise known as Too Good to Be True Protagonist Syndrome. I'll give Michael the benefit of the doubt and not call him defective simply because it's part of his God-given calling and life's work to offer redemption to the most vile, but even then I question whether or not his sword has fucked with his mind. And I also doubt just how forgiving Michael would have been if his son had actually picked up the coin.
Kinda does.
In a world where we have been the recipient of a request from a bona fide archangel, there's sufficient evidence of an objective moral/ethical standard to meet that Catholic-raised Molly should be paying attention to the lines.

And there are too many eyes and ears for secrecy; the Denatians couldnt keep their plot to murder Chicago secret either.

We are leaning on Michael's reputation and power while we get our legs under us.
And Harry is considered something of a precipitate hothead and magical thug in the supernatural community.

The reputational damage from accepting someone's surrender and then killing them would have lingered for centuries.
It would have been a free gift to the Fallen, who would just pick up another coin bearer in a year and give them training.
There's a reason that Murphy attacking Nicodemus with a Sword led to the breaking of Fidelacchius.

You underestimate just how forgiving Michael is.
There's a reason Dresden considers him a genuinely good man.
Gard specifically thinks that Katrina considers two or more valkyries assaulting her at the same time an unacceptable threat to her life:

Gard also considers herself to be Katrina's better outside of her "one weird trick":

She also doesn't know that we are an Exalt, or what an exalt is. She is surprisingly more prepared to face Michael than us, as she has crossed blades with White God's servants before.

And she's dismissive of mortals. So, this might at least partially be over-confidence on her part. And we don't know if the passenger brought as a backup was all she had, or a deliberate decision on her part, or if it's even here to back her up.
Thats not what that quote says.

Like I pointed out, Gard's latest data on Kattrin is seventeen years old.
Kattrin could be worse. Could be better. Could have tailored countermeasures specifically for Gard; Gard being Marcone's bodyguard has been a thing for several years now, and she has had several months to prepare for Chicago.

Do wizards count as mortals?
Because she and her minions had Dresden in jail rather than risk him running around.
So whatever else is true, we know she takes wizards seriously enough to take preemptive steps.
That is the thing though, we could have NOT brought Gard into it. Meaning in such a scenario would the GM have to nerf Katrina? Or was not talking to Gard a trap option? As Katrina would have murdered us otherwise?

So, no. Gard is here because we contacted her and rolled well. That would not be taken into consideration, if anything, Katrina bringing that Zombie with her is proof that the game is balanced with Gard/Mitchel in mind.
We couldnt not have brought Gard into it; she was our only intel source.
If we hadnt brought Gard into it, we'd still have the Dresden and Ankou force add options.
Still have a shintai in our back pocket as a go to hell plan.

Point of order:
We dont know what or who she is bringing with her. I have speculated its a superzombie, but we have no way of knowing right now.
She's had months of preptime. Could be anything.

Just a reminder
 
Thats not what that quote says.

Like I pointed out, Gard's latest data on Kattrin is seventeen years old.
Kattrin could be worse. Could be better. Could have tailored countermeasures specifically for Gard; Gard being Marcone's bodyguard has been a thing for several years now, and she has had several months to prepare for Chicago.

Do wizards count as mortals?
Because she and her minions had Dresden in jail rather than risk him running around.
So whatever else is true, we know she takes wizards seriously enough to take preemptive steps.
1) Gard's line of reasoning is sound in my opinion. Katrina chose the time to act when her sisters were not around. She is at least vary of them.
2) It has been 20 years, but 20 years after a near thousand years of conflict. It's possible that Katrina could have drastically improved her capabilities in those twenty years, but it's far less likely than if she was going from 20 to 40 years of age, and not from 980 to 1000. Skill saturation is a thing.
3) From context, mortals = Monoc securities mortal employees.
4) Dresden is also a Warden. He has access to White Council resources. It makes sense to imprison him, even outside of his own personal combat prowess.
 
On the subject of collateral damage, there could almost always be collateral damage. I didn't see anyone complaining that when we attacked people armed with semiautomatic rifles the stray bullets could very easily have killed someone. This is a densely populated neighbourhood with poor construction standards. Bullets don't magically disappear, they keep on going until something stops them, and the walls are likely not strong enough to reliably do so.

We're not strong enough yet to have the luxury of choosing the perfect place and time to engage.

Alison, while there could be collateral injuries, I doubt there'll be collateral fatalities. Black Rider can choose a spot where he won't hit anyone else, and where other traffic is slow enough the they want lull themselves if they lose control thanks to the shock.

We can also simply not tell Michael that we crashed the car. She has lots of enemies.

Hmm... that could work yeah, still risk of collateral damage though if you guys choose to do it, between the runaway car and the explosion in the middle of a busy city.

Yeah, you'd blow the engine after you'd started spinning the car so it would hit the obstacle sideways, but before impact.

You'd be running the engine massively outside its safe operating range to accelerate much faster than it usually would as well. Black Rider can override the usual limiters on the engine that stop it running too hot and melting, as they're implemented in software on modern cars, which is probably the first step to making the engine blow up anyway. Being run that hard would destroy the engine in a few tens of seconds, but that doesn't matter as it'll be destroyed anyway.

This makes it a lot easier to get fast enough to do massive damage, and also a lot easier to avoid collateral damage, as the amount of space needed to accelerate in is a lot smaller.
 
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The legal definition doesn't apply in this situation, IMO. We're not planning around having to answer to a review board after the fact and we're not wearing body cams whose footage will eventually be released to the public. Katrina and her ilk need killing and we're the ones who will probably end up trying to do it. Either now or later, it's going to come down to a fight.

We're not Michael and we're not Harry. I'm getting tired of that comparison. Harry not executing Cassius was unforgivably stupid and cannot be justified except by saying that Harry suffers from a mental defect otherwise known as Too Good to Be True Protagonist Syndrome. I'll give Michael the benefit of the doubt and not call him defective simply because it's part of his God-given calling and life's work to offer redemption to the most vile, but even then I question whether or not his sword has fucked with his mind. And I also doubt just how forgiving Michael would have been if his son had actually picked up the coin.
There is zero way the sword fucked with his mind.
 
The legal definition doesn't apply in this situation, IMO. We're not planning around having to answer to a review board after the fact and we're not wearing body cams whose footage will eventually be released to the public. Katrina and her ilk need killing and we're the ones who will probably end up trying to do it. Either now or later, it's going to come down to a fight.

We're not Michael and we're not Harry. I'm getting tired of that comparison. Harry not executing Cassius was unforgivably stupid and cannot be justified except by saying that Harry suffers from a mental defect otherwise known as Too Good to Be True Protagonist Syndrome. I'll give Michael the benefit of the doubt and not call him defective simply because it's part of his God-given calling and life's work to offer redemption to the most vile, but even then I question whether or not his sword has fucked with his mind. And I also doubt just how forgiving Michael would have been if his son had actually picked up the coin.

Just wanted to give general characterization note, but in Christian cosmology the "everything can be forgiven" ideal stems from the fundamental basis that God is the supreme force in the world and the supreme good. So X person being actually unforgivable implies they did something so evil it's beyond God/Christ's everlasting love which is a big no no. So yeah don't expect Michael to ever get more 'pragmatic' unless something catastrophic that renders his unrecognizable happening (beyond his young son getting a Denarius coin even, since hey, he still has a mortal soul capable of receiving Grace!)
 
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