Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

The Loup Garou was mortal, free will and everything and you could bind that into a circle if you knew what you were doing.
Only when it was at the right time of the lunar month, and under the control of its curse.
It wasnt mortal during that period. No free will. Couldnt die, even.
At other times MacFinn could apparently walk in and out of his binding circle at will.

Compare to Tera or the Alphas or even the lycanthropes and hexenwulfen.
Tera and the Alphas were as free as any mortals.
The lycanthropes and hexenwulfen, while under the influence, still had free will to make their own choices.

That seems to be the main differentiator between whether you can bind someone or not under Dresden rules:
If they are immortals(edit: by nature) and are invested with a nonmortal Mantle? Yes, you can probably bind them if you meet the requirements.
If not, no.

Unless you're dealing with angels. Angels break the rules.
 
Last edited:
A binding spell is effective in itself. Just that usually its easier to physically bind someone strongly than magically unless you had a special inroad.
 
Only when it was at the right time of the lunar month, and under the control of its curse.
It wasnt mortal during that period. No free will. Couldnt die, even.
At other times MacFinn could apparently walk in and out of his binding circle at will.

Compare to Tera or the Alphas or even the lycanthropes and hexenwulfen.
Tera and the Alphas were as free as any mortals.
The lycanthropes and hexenwulfen, while under the influence, still had free will to make their own choices.

That seems to be the main differentiator between whether you can bind someone or not under Dresden rules:
If they are immortals(edit: by nature) and are invested with a nonmortal Mantle? Yes, you can probably bind them if you meet the requirements.
If not, no.

Unless you're dealing with angels. Angels break the rules.

The Exaltation is very much not mortal and it is a piece of your soul, trying to leave that in a circle and walk would not be pretty. Though again you need a magician who can comprehend what it is and has the power and tools to contest it. Basically someone would have to build a miniature Jade Prison just for you and then because you are human and not just floating power you would have the capacity to use that human free will and ingenuity against it. There is a reason why they did not try to put living Exalts in the Vault. It is static and they are not.
 
The Exaltation is very much not mortal and it is a piece of your soul, trying to leave that in a circle and walk would not be pretty. Though again you need a magician who can comprehend what it is and has the power and tools to contest it. Basically someone would have to build a miniature Jade Prison just for you and then because you are human and not just floating power you would have the capacity to use that human free will and ingenuity against it. There is a reason why they did not try to put living Exalts in the Vault. It is static and they are not.
Some of the Fallen might be able to come up with something, like that hell-fire powered circle when they trapped the Archive.

But binding Molly especially is hard.

Because there's no way that doesn't trigger CCC.
 
The Exaltation is very much not mortal and it is a piece of your soul, trying to leave that in a circle and walk would not be pretty. Though again you need a magician who can comprehend what it is and has the power and tools to contest it. Basically someone would have to build a miniature Jade Prison just for you and then because you are human and not just floating power you would have the capacity to use that human free will and ingenuity against it. There is a reason why they did not try to put living Exalts in the Vault. It is static and they are not.
As I understand it, in Dresden, as long as you have enough knowledge you can bind anything nonmortal.
Thats how Harry was able to summon and bind the Erl King in Dead Beat, despite the EK being a contemporary of Mab; not her equal, but in her general sorta weight class.

Exaltations? You can bind the Exaltation on its own, sure. Very, very hard but doable, if you have the power and knowledge.
You cant bind the Exaltation when its inside a mortal Exalt, though, for much the same reason you can bind a Fallen coin in a warding circle (within limits, because angels break the rules), but cannot bind one when its partnered with a Denarian.

Or even just has a shadow in a candidates head.
Dresden had Lasciel's coin buried in his basement behind concrete and multiple layers of binding wards, but Lash straight told him that they could summon it at any time.


You can imprison an Exalt in forcefields and chains and whatever. If they dont have, or dont develop the appropriate charms and tools, they wont get out. But you cant contain them in a magic summoning/binding circle, IC because they are free willed mortals and bindings like that rely on metaphysical constants that dont apply to mortals, and OOC because thats stuff that conflicts with the thematic and narrative role of Exalts and Exaltations as rulebreakers.

At least, those are the Rules as I understand them.
But this is your story.
Houserule whatever you think makes for better narrative
 
Last edited:
As I understand it, in Dresden, as long as you have enough knowledge you can bind anything nonmortal.
Thats how Harry was able to summon and bind the Erl King in Dead Beat, despite the EK being a contemporary of Mab; not her equal, but in her general sorta weight class.

Exaltations? You can bind the Exaltation on its own, sure. Very, very hard but doable, if you have the power and knowledge.
You cant bind the Exaltation when its inside a mortal Exalt, though, for much the same reason you can bind a Fallen coin in a warding circle (within limits, because angels break the rules), but cannot bind one when its partnered with a Denarian.

Or even just has a shadow in a candidates head.
Dresden had Lasciel's coin buried in his basement behind concrete and multiple layers of binding wards, but Lash straight told him that they could summon it at any time.


You can imprison an Exalt in forcefields and chains and whatever. If they dont have, or dont develop the appropriate charms and tools, they wont get out. But you cant contain them in a magic summoning/binding circle, IC because they are free willed mortals and bindings like that rely on metaphysical constants that dont apply to mortals, and OOC because thats stuff that conflicts with the thematic and narrative role of Exalts and Exaltations as rulebreakers.

At least, those are the Rules as I understand them.
But this is your story.
Houserule whatever you think makes for better narrative

If you imprisoned an Exalt in a circular forcefield that is keyed off them being an Exalt... how is that not a circle binding? It is the same sort of abjuration skills only applied to something that unlike the EK it does not play by the rules so you don't just have to know what you are dealing with you need the power to do it... and the Exalt can work to break the chains same as any other which the EK or Mab could not do.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jul 29, 2022 at 2:39 AM, finished with 99 posts and 29 votes.

  • [X] Try to trick him. (Manipulate + Empathy)
    -[X] This man is a talker. Get him talking. Get him ranting. There's nothing so chatty as a man who wants to explain in detail why you're wrong. If you get him detailing what is going on you should be able to pick some clues from it all, or at least give you leads.
    [X] A different kind of intimidation for a different kind of man (Charisma + Occult)
    -[X] Scoff at the ignorance of a Necromancer thinking that he deserves rest in death. You can promise him a life after death, though it will not be a pleasant one. Describe the darkness and cold of Kakuri while leaning close enough that he can feel the chill of your body.
    -[X] Do directly state that you can send him there, just in case he mistakes you for some kind of fey and thinks you can't lie.
    [X] Try to threaten (Charisma+Intimidation)
    -[X] Break his will. Take him into a seperate room. Explain to him calmly and respectfully what you are, describe via usun's knowledge exactly the tender mercies you can inflict onto his soul and tell him you have marked him, he will not escape you in death. He will be fuel for your Ascension and a ever tormented husk who suffers eternal. Tell him that you are Christian and hell is real and he will face it twice over.
    [X] Try to threaten (Charisma+Intimidation)
    -[X] The crown upon your brow illuminates his face and the knowledge of his most guarded and shameful secret is whispered into your ears. From there, it isn't hard to make him believe that you already know him, have seen his very soul and more yet, beyond the powers of true sight and soulgaze. It is in his reason to speak, to tell you and your companions what he knows, to save you time and a bit of effort. He wants to cooperate with you, and even the soon-to-come judgment of the White Council is not something to run away from, when the alternative is you, peeling him open layer by layer, taking into your possession what he may only dream to take into his grave.
    [x] BronzeTongue
 
Last edited:
Arc 1 Post 19: An Ill Timed Call
An Ill Timed Call

9th of July 2006 A.D.

"How little, he knows, how foolish his courage to think that death is the worst fate that might be visited upon him, In the Night Realm where the bed of all is stone, where fire is false hope that burns without warmth, where the springs of the earth are a lie, where dawn newer comes. Oh such are the horrors that would make him beg for eternity as the puppet of his deathlord," Usum's voice weaves its way though your thoughts with visions of icy hell. Cold is the certainty that the threat would not be hollow forever, that come day you might find the black key to that realm and dispose of the souls of whoever you wish into that realm with a touch or a kiss. There is no god but God and only his judgement may decide the fate of souls, you hang on to that truth, but it feels thin, like a child hiding under a table with her eyes closed. I shouldn't be able to spy on angels either and yet I was asked not to.

Lost 1 Essence

Just because I can do something doesn't mean I should... and just because I can say something does not mean I should speak either. What would your dad think if you gave a loving description of the horrors of hell and how Gorfel belonged there? What would Harry? More seriously if he does end up being interrogated by others on the Council do you want them to know how intimate your understanding of Yomi Wan is?

Though the bit about puppets does give you an idea. "This Kemmler must have been really impressive, I mean he still has you by the leash forty years after his final death. What did he do, tell you how special you were when you were a good boy, or was the prospect of him maybe throwing scraps of power your way enough to keep you begging?"

"We are not his slaves," the old man answers, needled. "We served willingly, knowingly a man whom even death bowed to, we walked the Whispering Way."

"You provided a great store of... somewhat talented corpses and specters for Kammler to devour at his leisure," you reply with your best condescending smile. "I do hope you didn't just move on to some new leader. I would say dogging his steps, but that might be insulting to Mouse over there."

For his part Mouse tips his head quizzically as if not sure what to make of your antics, Harry looks a little more perturbed while your dad keeps his eyes firmly on Gorfel himself in case he tries something. The monks oddly enough do not look the least surprised.

"Kaiser was it?" you push a little more. "Your new lord and master who will rule ten thousand years."

"Bah," the sorcerer sneers. "Is that what you think we are girl? A worm's eye view, fit for brutes and blunt instruments. Do you really think I would share true nature and purpose of our brotherhood with their like. We dwell wherever there is darkness and in darkness we find our friends, we rebel against the clay-footed tyranny of powers which cling to the status quo of a crumbling world. Do you not see it with those frost-touched eyes. Everywhere talents arise from the churning tides of humanity, too many to bind, too many to contain. The dam is brreaking and the White Council has no other plan but to try to plug the holes with their hands." Eyes narrowed with malice he looks to Harry. "The Red Court makes for an excellent hammer, but it is only the most obvious... the most distracting."

"And then you assholes will rise up and inherit the earth." The sarcasm practically drips off Harry's words. "You know generally the Nazis build a giant space laser before they go on about that. They aren't usually the ones tied up during the monologue either."

"It is only my hands that are tied fool!" the sorcerer snaps. "Your very power is bound by those who would use the might denied you for their own ends!"

You could cut the silence with a knife. The implication that people in charge of the White Council, the Senior Council were using Black Magic is clear as it is horrifying and from the expression on Gorfel's face it is not one he had wanted to reveal. You can feel the weight of the secret coiling in your soul like the light of the rising sun revealing the world.

Gain 2 Essence

Before Harry can say another word a knock rings on the door, then another. "Chicago Police Department, open up Dresden or we're coming in!" With a lurch in your stomach you recognize Detective Greene.

That is when Gorfel sees his chance, his power a sudden pal on the air, while all of you are distracted... or almost all of you.

Whatever he had meant to do is put to a swift end as the flat of Amoracchius's blade strikes his cheek. If he had been purely mortal the blow might have done enough damage to need an ambulance or worse, but as is it simply puts out his lights again before the dark spirit bound within him can mend his wounds.

"Go, into the bedroom I'll keep them busy!" Harry whispers urgently.

The monks are already moving and your dad has the sorcerer, but you are not so sure. "What if he has a search warrant?"

"I'll hold him off somehow, go," he insists.

You hesitate between taking his word for it and recalling Lasciel's accounting about how he sacrifices himself for others. Could you get Greene to back off? You could probably scare the daylights out of him, but that would come back to haunt you.

What do you do?

[] Follow the others into the bedroom

[] Stay and help Harry
-[] Write in stunt, optional

[] Write in


OOC: Turns out that gun was loud enough... and maybe something more.
 
Last edited:
If you imprisoned an Exalt in a circular forcefield that is keyed off them being an Exalt... how is that not a circle binding? It is the same sort of abjuration skills only applied to something that unlike the EK it does not play by the rules so you don't just have to know what you are dealing with you need the power to do it... and the Exalt can work to break the chains same as any other which the EK or Mab could not do.
Because cutting out the power shuts down a forcefield.
Bindings are more conceptual; both more durable and more ephemeral. The loup garou wasnt bound by brute force, for example; the binding circles MacFinn used were not physically strong.

Besides, an Exalt can potentially perfect dodge or perfect attack a forcefield and shatter it.
The Erl King couldnt get out of a binding being held by Dresden until Cowl and Kumori punched him out, despite his being a veritable force of nature.

The narrative underpinnings of this in the Dresdenverse are because of how they affect balance of power. Every supernatural of narrative importance has access to magic, and immortals customarily have had a lot more opportunity to accumulate the knowledge and power part than mortals do.

If anyone could routinely summon and bind mortals, the Dresdenverse would be a lot more dystopian than it already is.
And mortals wouldnt really be a threat as a group.
And Exalts always count as mortals, in Exalted and in EXvWoD.

Remember that in the Dresdenverse, you dont need equipment or chants or anything to put up a summoning or binding circle.
They help, but they arent necessary. Just knowledge and will. Dresden summoned Mab in his head with a broken back and no tools, just knowledge and will expressed as a visualized summoning circle.

EDIT
Update!
 
[JK] Follow the others into the bedroom
-[JK] If the cops try to check the bedroom ask "Harry, come back to bed." In your best bedroom voice.

:p
 
Because cutting out the power shuts down a forcefield.
Bindings are more conceptual; both more durable and more ephemeral. The loup garou wasnt bound by brute force, for example; the binding circles MacFinn used were not physically strong.

Besides, an Exalt can potentially perfect dodge or perfect attack a forcefield and shatter it.
The Erl King couldnt get out of a binding being held by Dresden until Cowl and Kumori punched him out, despite his being a veritable force of nature.

The narrative underpinnings of this in the Dresdenverse are because of how they affect balance of power. Every supernatural of narrative importance has access to magic, and immortals customarily have had a lot more opportunity to accumulate the knowledge and power part than mortals do.

If anyone could routinely summon and bind mortals, the Dresdenverse would be a lot more dystopian than it already is.
And mortals wouldnt really be a threat as a group.
And Exalts always count as mortals, in Exalted and in EXvWoD.

Remember that in the Dresdenverse, you dont need equipment or chants or anything to put up a summoning or binding circle.
They help, but they arent necessary. Just knowledge and will. Dresden summoned Mab in his head with a broken back and no tools, just knowledge and will expressed as a visualized summoning circle.

EDIT
Update!

The way I see it if you had their true name you could summon a mortal, you would just have to pay the full price for dragging them across the space between you instantly out of your own reserves, otherwise known as 'would probably blow a Senior Council Member's head up'. The reason it works without that for the EK or Mab is that they are part of a set of trade offs and bargains that underline the metaphysics of the setting, you are not part of that just like mortals are not, so it would take more than having the right focus to summon you just like with a mortal. Someone would have to put the power in.

Mortals can explicitly be bound by their true name, that is why it is dangerous to hand them out.
 
Last edited:
Does anyone here think giving whispering the name of Greene's attacker with Crown of Eyes then going into the bedroom seems like a useful idea? I have no idea what kind of weird noodle incident Harry would get into over that or if it'd be productive.
 
"It is only my hands that are tied fool!" the sorcerer snaps. "Your very power is bound by those who would use the might denied you for their own ends!"

You could cut the silence with a knife. The implication that people in charge of the White Council, the Senior Council were using Black Magic is clear as it is horrifying and from the expression on Gorfel's face it is not one he had wanted to reveal.
Forbidden knowledge.
+2 Essence
:)
Before Harry can say another word a knock rings on the door, then another. "Chicago Police Department, open up Dresden or we're coming in!" With a lurch in your stomach you recognize Detective Greene.
Molly remembers this dude. And has reason to dislike him.

In Proven Guilty(ie last week) he was the one who attempted to interrogate her after Splattercon as a juvenile with no parents available, no lawyer and no subpoena. And got his shit rocked by a reporter.
Dude is competent according to Murphy, but he has demonstrated a history of skirting due process.

Critically, Detective Greene is a Homicide detective. Not a beat cop in a patrol car.
Detectives do not show up to reports of shots fired. And he has no legitimate reason to show up at Dresden's door when the shooter was on a building in the street.

Especially since this is the second time in less than a week we have met him around Dresden's home.
Make sure there are witnesses to any conversation.
 
Last edited:
You could cut the silence with a knife. The implication that people in charge of the White Council, the Senior Council were using Black Magic is clear as it is horrifying and from the expression on Gorfel's face it is not one he had wanted to reveal. You can feel the weight of the secret coiling in your soul like the light of the rising sun revealing the world.

How horrified will Harry be when he finds out Ebenezer uses Black Magic, I wonder.

Canonically the Blackstaff is the only Senior Council member allowed to use Black Magic due to an Artifact that ameliorates or negates, canon isn't clear on that, the negative aspects. But if Molly only asks for the list of Council Members that have used Black Magic, she won't get that distinction...

That might hit him even harder than in canon when he found out that he was allowed to break the Laws.
 
The way I see it if you had their true name you could summon a mortal, you would just have to pay the full price for dragging them across the space between you instantly out of your own reserves, otherwise known as 'would probably blow a Senior Council Member's head up'. The reason it works without that for the EK or Mab is that they are part of a set of trade offs and bargains that underline the metaphysics of the setting, you are not part of that just like mortals are not, so it would take more than having the right focus to summon you just like with a mortal. Someone would have to put the power in.

Mortals can explicitly be bound by their true name, that is why it is dangerous to hand them out.
I'll have to look through the other WoG over the weekend
But I dont think thats possible in Dresdenverse cosmology.
Like at all.

And it doesnt make sense with the same magical framework that allows you to call up bigtime Fae, demons from Hell and Outsiders.

Point of order:
Mortal True Names change. Immortals dont.
So while True Names help with compelling and targeting mortals, they have a best by date.

OOC: Turns out that gun was loud enough... and maybe something more.
QUESTION
1)How loud was the gun?
We know Harry heard it, but whether he thought it was a gun or a car backfiring remains to be seen

2) Do we know if Harry's phone is working?
 
How horrified will Harry be when he finds out Ebenezer uses Black Magic, I wonder.

Canonically the Blackstaff is the only Senior Council member allowed to use Black Magic due to an Artifact that ameliorates or negates, canon isn't clear on that, the negative aspects. But if Molly only asks for the list of Council Members that have used Black Magic, she won't get that distinction...

That might hit him even harder than in canon when he found out that he was allowed to break the Laws.

Harry Learned about that 2 books ago.
 
Molly is visibly wounded and not a good way to deflect the cops. Anyone reasonably clean to talk without Harry shoving his foot up his mouth?
 
How horrified will Harry be when he finds out Ebenezer uses Black Magic, I wonder.

Canonically the Blackstaff is the only Senior Council member allowed to use Black Magic due to an Artifact that ameliorates or negates, canon isn't clear on that, the negative aspects. But if Molly only asks for the list of Council Members that have used Black Magic, she won't get that distinction...

That might hit him even harder than in canon when he found out that he was allowed to break the Laws.
He already knows as of Blood Rites, when Ebenezer met Kincaid and almost came to blows with him.
Ebenezer dropped a satellite on Casaverde, remember?
 
Back
Top