Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

It isn't permanent.
People in hell die too, usually.
Sure, eaten by demons is not a nice end, but it is an end, we are not dealing with eternity here.
thats fair though I know some exalted hell stuff is like ten thousand years and others which may not be hell so much as god derived punishment is literally conceptual eternity.
There is a feature for your hell that makes it so people who die under certain circumstances are brought back to suffer again. The Thousand Hells have that set to 'all deaths unless otherwise proclaimed by the Yama King of the domain'. Now there are ways to be obliterated beyond the capacity of the local hell world to restore you mostly involving stolen treasures and lore even the Yama Kings do not understand, but those are rare.
are the yama kings all still present have none of them died or anything
 
thats fair though I know some exalted hell stuff is like ten thousand years and others which may not be hell so much as god derived punishment is literally conceptual eternity.

are the yama kings all still present have none of them died or anything

Oh sure, they can die in their battles with each other and are replaced, the hells themselves are more enduring, a blight on the Nevernever.
 
There is a feature for your hell that makes it so people who die under certain circumstances are brought back to suffer again. The Thousand Hells have that set to 'all deaths unless otherwise proclaimed by the Yama King of the domain'. Now there are ways to be obliterated beyond the capacity of the local hell world to restore you mostly involving stolen treasures and lore even the Yama Kings do not understand, but those are rare.
Really all?
I remember that in Flayed Alive the dammed heal between storms, but I didn't think everyone had that active.
 
oh so they are part of the nevernever thanks for confirming something on accident I guess?

Everything is part of the Nevernever in this cosmology, it just means 'not the material world'.

Really all?
I remember that in Flayed Alive the dammed heal between storms, but I didn't think everyone had that active.

If they did not it would be a waste of souls and souls produce magic for the use of the Yama Kings and their Akuma. There is no reason why they would not have it on as it would be a competitive edge to their rivals.
 
Everything is part of the Nevernever in this cosmology, it just means 'not the material world'.



If they did not it would be a waste of souls and souls produce magic for the use of the Yama Kings and their Akuma. There is no reason why they would not have it on as it would be a competitive edge to their rivals.
so 100% we won't be dealing with frankly outside (not counting outsiders) realities? Also what about the multiverse being a thing where jim butcher has as much said uriels dealing with multiple dresdens simultaneously? do they not count as material places?
 
If they did not it would be a waste of souls and souls produce magic for the use of the Yama Kings and their Akuma. There is no reason why they would not have it on as it would be a competitive edge to their rivals.
I would assume that healing people and keeping them alive against common logic is something that costs more energy than it brings.
It does have a point-cost in our hell after all.
 
so 100% we won't be dealing with frankly outside (not counting outsiders) realities? Also what about the multiverse being a thing where jim butcher has as much said uriels dealing with multiple dresdens simultaneously? do they not count as material places?

I think he meant multiple Dresdens metaphorically, as in 'multiple people who act like Dresden'. If he did mean that literally that is very stupid (in that it lowers the relevance of your main character) and I will be ignoring it.

I would assume that healing people and keeping them alive against common logic is something that costs more energy than it brings.
It does have a point-cost in our hell after all.

Well yeah, but you pay it once and then it just works, it is renewable energy for Hell realms.
 
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I think he meant multiple Dresdens metaphorically, as in 'multiple people who act like Dresden'. If he did mean that literally that is very stupid (in that it lowers the relevance of your main character) and I will be ignoring it.
...just so you're aware the Dresden Files universe exists in a big, wide, spectral multi-verse. It's not like there's parallel Earths. There's an entire broadcast spectrum of parallel Earths, and if you go far enough you'll find the parallel Earth where Star Wars stuff works, and so on. Dresden could get there if he wanted to ...




Dudesan: What we've seen of the cosmology of The Dresden Files seems very Earth-centric. Is that because everything really does revolve around the Earth[1] , or because we're seeing only a tiny slice of a much bigger picture?


Jim: 3) Everything revolves around /this/ earth, in the Dresden stories. But not necessarily around all (or even a majority of) the other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility created by free will. Other, parallel realities have other worlds playing a more central role, and some of them have earth in a nice quiet backwater, peaceful, relatively conflict free, and boring.
its definitely meant literally as apparently the multiverse in dresden verse is basically endless.
Edit: You can obviously ignore this for quest purposes the whole settings always been just a small part of the setting as a whole though. So yeah what dresden does matters that doesn't mean there isn't literally endless things going on elsewhere.
 
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Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jul 29, 2022 at 2:39 AM, finished with 99 posts and 29 votes.

  • [X] Try to trick him. (Manipulate + Empathy)
    -[X] This man is a talker. Get him talking. Get him ranting. There's nothing so chatty as a man who wants to explain in detail why you're wrong. If you get him detailing what is going on you should be able to pick some clues from it all, or at least give you leads.
    [X] A different kind of intimidation for a different kind of man (Charisma + Occult)
    -[X] Scoff at the ignorance of a Necromancer thinking that he deserves rest in death. You can promise him a life after death, though it will not be a pleasant one. Describe the darkness and cold of Kakuri while leaning close enough that he can feel the chill of your body.
    -[X] Do directly state that you can send him there, just in case he mistakes you for some kind of fey and thinks you can't lie.
    [X] Try to threaten (Charisma+Intimidation)
    -[X] Break his will. Take him into a seperate room. Explain to him calmly and respectfully what you are, describe via usun's knowledge exactly the tender mercies you can inflict onto his soul and tell him you have marked him, he will not escape you in death. He will be fuel for your Ascension and a ever tormented husk who suffers eternal. Tell him that you are Christian and hell is real and he will face it twice over.
    [X] Try to threaten (Charisma+Intimidation)
    -[X] The crown upon your brow illuminates his face and the knowledge of his most guarded and shameful secret is whispered into your ears. From there, it isn't hard to make him believe that you already know him, have seen his very soul and more yet, beyond the powers of true sight and soulgaze. It is in his reason to speak, to tell you and your companions what he knows, to save you time and a bit of effort. He wants to cooperate with you, and even the soon-to-come judgment of the White Council is not something to run away from, when the alternative is you, peeling him open layer by layer, taking into your possession what he may only dream to take into his grave.
    [x] BronzeTongue
 
Anyways dp while I kinda get your sentiment I don't really get it detracting from the specialness of dresden when plenty of settings do it like all of comic books. Ultimately most of what we see is just one world and thats the focus and so none of that multiverse stuff really matters cause its literally not a problem unless dresden explicitly started learning magics to just leave. Word of butcher there are literal mundane earths out there where nothing special is happening.
 
1)He's a necromancer. He summons, consumes, binds and manipulates ghosts and spirits. The more he knows about an afterlife the better he is at manipulating it, drawing power from its denizens, or making deals with its rulers and natives.
We do not want to enable him by improving his knowledge of the Thousand Hells.

2) No thats not how it works in the Dresdenverse.
Actual magic knowledge is usually controlled or obscure and the really hard stuff is often rare. Much of the plot of Dead Beat involved a scramble for the only copy of an ascension ritual in Chicago, and Dresden figuring out the nature of the Erl King.

We have an Ages-old spirit in our head with knowledge thats rare.
If this sort of thing was easy to find out, Gorfel would already know it. He's been a sorcerer for longer than Michael has been alive, and he can summon spirits for information.

3)If he gets taken to Edinburgh and successfully interrogated before execution, everything they get out of him is accessible to everyone senior enough to get the interrogation records or who has the magic powers to listen in.
That includes Odin, the Archive and Anduriel of the Fallen. And everyone that Nemesis has subverted.

4)There is a spirit of rage in Gorfel's head, giving him superhealing and possibly listening to every conversation.
If dude dies, said spirit goes back to its bosses.
With everything its overheard and remembers.

5)Gorfel operates in Chicago and recognizes Michael on sight. I think he knows damn well that Molly is his daughter.

Dude probably knows the face of every one of Michael's children; its public knowledge, and accessible to anyone willing to hire a private investigator to spend thirty minutes at the public birth records office and two hours outside the Carpenter home on Sunday with a camera.

Its not a good idea to assume incompetence on the part of our opposition. Hostiles who know enough about the ongoing working relationship between Michael and Harry to ambush us outside his home, and who have the resources to put a marksman on site at short notice can be assumed to have done their basic homework about local Chicago persons of interest.

=========
The breadth of our knowledge is indicative of our powers and specialties, and it allows people to prepare for us. Which we do not want. OOC, we know the Bad Guys have moles in Edinburgh and many other places. IC, we know that Molly has survived against fetches, Red Court vampires and Outsiders because she's an OCP, and her survival is better the longer it stays that way.

A successful interrogation attempts to extract as much information as possible without giving any away, because any and all information will be used against you by enemy wizards.
.
I mean, the Yomi Wan is known for the fact that 10.000 souls always escape it.
There's no way knowledge of these hells isn't low-end occult knowledge within the areas where the Kuei Wan live.

To be clear, this is not a secret ritual to summon a high-powered fey or to become immortal, this is basic geography of some of the worse parts of the NeverNever. A bit like telling him what hanging in Arctis Tor is like, only less personal for Molly.

We are not telling him the secret entrance to Emma-O's palace or the dirty secrets of his favorite Shikomes, just how horrible hell is, together with a promise to send him there.
And if he calls our bluff on the latter, well bad rolls happen and we can admit that we can't/won't actually do that.

As for other people knowing of our knowledge of Yomi Wan, I am unconcerned because people with enough occult knowledge can already associate us with that. See Ebenezer directly comparing us to one of Ravana's minions from Lanka.
But that doesn't help nearly as much as a Wizard might think, because preparations taken against a demon are completly wrong against a mortal and free-willed Exalted that just happens to use hell-flavored powers. No circle will bind us, Iron won't hurt anymore than iron usually does and so on.
 
I mean, the Yomi Wan is known for the fact that 10.000 souls always escape it.
There's no way knowledge of these hells isn't low-end occult knowledge within the areas where the Kuei Wan live.

To be clear, this is not a secret ritual to summon a high-powered fey or to become immortal, this is basic geography of some of the worse parts of the NeverNever. A bit like telling him what hanging in Arctis Tor is like, only less personal for Molly.

We are not telling him the secret entrance to Emma-O's palace or the dirty secrets of his favorite Shikomes, just how horrible hell is, together with a promise to send him there.
And if he calls our bluff on the latter, well bad rolls happen and we can admit that we can't/won't actually do that.

As for other people knowing of our knowledge of Yomi Wan, I am unconcerned because people with enough occult knowledge can already associate us with that. See Ebenezer directly comparing us to one of Ravana's minions from Lanka.
But that doesn't help nearly as much as a Wizard might think, because preparations taken against a demon are completly wrong against a mortal and free-willed Exalted that just happens to use hell-flavored powers. No circle will bind us, Iron won't hurt anymore than iron usually does and so on.

A circle might be able to bind you, though it would take a hell of a powerful one. Like you are not immune to the concept of magical barriers anymore than you are immune to a wizard throwing fire at you. They would have to understand what they are binding though.
 
@DragonParadox
Because you might be interested

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A circle might be able to bind you, though it would take a hell of a powerful one. Like you are not immune to the concept of magical barriers anymore than you are immune to a wizard throwing fire at you. They would have to understand what they are binding though.
So a circle desibn to bind demons would not work?

Also, so far thresholds have not affected us at all, even when they do bother mortal wizards. Do we or Usum have any theoryon why?
 
A circle might be able to bind you, though it would take a hell of a powerful one. Like you are not immune to the concept of magical barriers anymore than you are immune to a wizard throwing fire at you. They would have to understand what they are binding though.
Like how well would they need to understand would some info work or do they need.the equivalent of a degree or even worse for them actual knowledge on the metaphysics?
 
So a circle desibn to bind demons would not work?

Also, so far thresholds have not affected us at all, even when they do bother mortal wizards. Do we or Usum have any theoryon why?
  1. No, you are not a demon
  2. Because you do not recognize such limits to your domain. The power of thresholds is rooted in some kind of cosmic contract to which you are not party
Like how well would they need to understand would some info work or do they need.the equivalent of a degree or even worse for them actual knowledge on the metaphysics?

They need to know what an Infernal Exaltation is and something of what its limits are.
 
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  1. No, you are not a demon
  2. Because you do not recognize such limits to your domain. The power of threasholds is rooted in some kind of cosmic contract to which you are not party
Not that it matters much does this mean our houses threshold doesn't recognize us anymore though? Also does this mean we can't make our own threshold if we buy a house? Again not that it matters much we can do wards of our own and such
 
Not that it matters much does this mean our houses threshold doesn't recognize us anymore though? Also does this mean we can't make our own threshold if we buy a house? Again not that it matters much we can do wards of our own and such

Molly is not sure, she would have to invite a supernatural creature in and see if it worked, though she suspects it would not as again you are not under the contract whatever that is
 
Well the great wall of China has a threshold at least we can confirm now we can walk right past it with zero issue.

Edit: We don't actually need to do it with a supernatural creature wizards can bypass thresholds they just for the most part without permission just leave their magic at the door essentially. So we could check with them and just ask if the magic stays at the door and if not have him walk out.
 
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I mean, the Yomi Wan is known for the fact that 10.000 souls always escape it.
There's no way knowledge of these hells isn't low-end occult knowledge within the areas where the Kuei Wan live.

To be clear, this is not a secret ritual to summon a high-powered fey or to become immortal, this is basic geography of some of the worse parts of the NeverNever. A bit like telling him what hanging in Arctis Tor is like, only less personal for Molly.

We are not telling him the secret entrance to Emma-O's palace or the dirty secrets of his favorite Shikomes, just how horrible hell is, together with a promise to send him there.
And if he calls our bluff on the latter, well bad rolls happen and we can admit that we can't/won't actually do that.

As for other people knowing of our knowledge of Yomi Wan, I am unconcerned because people with enough occult knowledge can already associate us with that. See Ebenezer directly comparing us to one of Ravana's minions from Lanka.
But that doesn't help nearly as much as a Wizard might think, because preparations taken against a demon are completly wrong against a mortal and free-willed Exalted that just happens to use hell-flavored powers. No circle will bind us, Iron won't hurt anymore than iron usually does and so on.
If it was common knowledge or easily accessible it wouldnt faze him.
Again, dude claims to have been a disciple of Kemmler, who was very much an international player. Given how long Kemmler was in business and how long it takes to learn magic, Gorfel is old enough to be Michael's grandfather. Thats a lot of time to travel.

Ebenezer is the Blackstaff and a Senior Council member.
One of the most powerful, most knowledgeable wizards on the planet, and one who canonically had Asian connections; he brought tengu spirits to Chichen Itza IIRC. Really shouldnt use him as a benchmark for what your garden-variety wizards know.

A circle might be able to bind you, though it would take a hell of a powerful one. Like you are not immune to the concept of magical barriers anymore than you are immune to a wizard throwing fire at you. They would have to understand what they are binding though.
I was under the impression this was one of the things where Molly being a mortal rules in her favor.
I mean, I dont know WoD's systems very well, but you cant bind a mortal in a magic circle in either the Dresdenverse or Exalted.
Mortals dont roll that way.

A Denarian would walk out of a circle despite all its power because its a human accessing Fallen power.
So would the Archive; you might cut her off from magic, but not physically contain her. Ditto Mouse even.
Because they are mortal, even if the power they access is not.
 
If it was common knowledge or easily accessible it wouldnt faze him.
Again, dude claims to have been a disciple of Kemmler, who was very much an international player. Given how long Kemmler was in business and how long it takes to learn magic, Gorfel is old enough to be Michael's grandfather. Thats a lot of time to travel.

Ebenezer is the Blackstaff and a Senior Council member.
One of the most powerful, most knowledgeable wizards on the planet, and one who canonically had Asian connections; he brought tengu spirits to Chichen Itza IIRC. Really shouldnt use him as a benchmark for what your garden-variety wizards know.


I was under the impression this was one of the things where Molly being a mortal rules in her favor.
I mean, I dont know WoD's systems very well, but you cant bind a mortal in a magic circle in either the Dresdenverse or Exalted.
Mortals dont roll that way.

A Denarian would walk out of a circle despite all its power because its a human accessing Fallen power.
So would the Archive; you might cut her off from magic, but not physically contain her. Ditto Mouse even.
Because they are mortal, even if the power they access is not.
Also good to note that even Ebenezer clearly didn't fully know exactly what we are. Given he only had a handful of minutes to check us out. He also arguably of most of senior council would know the most forbidden stuff since he's given free access to breaking the seven laws.
 
I was under the impression this was one of the things where Molly being a mortal rules in her favor.
I mean, I dont know WoD's systems very well, but you cant bind a mortal in a magic circle in either the Dresdenverse or Exalted.
Mortals dont roll that way.

A Denarian would walk out of a circle despite all its power because its a human accessing Fallen power.
So would the Archive; you might cut her off from magic, but not physically contain her. Ditto Mouse even.
Because they are mortal, even if the power they access is not.

The Loup Garou was mortal, free will and everything and you could bind that into a circle if you knew what you were doing.
 
The Loup Garou was mortal, free will and everything and you could bind that into a circle if you knew what you were doing.
Wizards can simply walk past a threshold, nothing stops them.

Except they leave most of their power outside. It'd probably be similar with the Loup Garou, except its power has manifested physically, which may cause problems if left behind.

Especially if it's already wounded.
 
Wizards can simply walk past a threshold, nothing stops them.

Except they leave most of their power outside. It'd probably be similar with the Loup Garou, except its power has manifested physically, which may cause problems if left behind.

Especially if it's already wounded.

Loup Garou are ravening monsters so there is no way they would have the capacity to stop at a circle if all it did was hurt. It has to be a wall to have any hope of working.
 
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