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There is no emotion... (A Jedi Order Quest)

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The Englanderish said:
I mean I'm all for vigourous enthusiasm but there is such a thing as too much at once. I'm also not entirely sure we have the total diplomacy for that even disregarding patrol assignments, which I don't think is a hot idea in and of itself. We'll need to strike something of a balance of throwing tangible support in but not breaking out own backs trying to carry everything.
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[] Plan: Passion, Yet Serenity v2
-[] Physically Aid Rebel Forces (Requires investment of Combat) Councilor Brianna, 8 Guardians (47 Combat)
--Heavy (You will launch raids towards Nar Shaddaa, to help Rebel forces (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
-[] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships (Requires investment of Skill) Councilor Bastila Shan, 6 Sentinels, 12 Padawans (46 Skill)
--Heavy (You will help redesign the Rebel Fleet from its Hutt Origin (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
-[] Facilitate Hutt Defections (Requires Investment of Diplomacy) Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 2 Consulars, 4 Guardians, 7 Padawans (46 Diplomacy)
--Heavy (You will attempt to convince higher ranking Hutts, such as Vogga who has business interests in selling his fuel, to defect to the Rebels (AT LEAST 45 Diplomacy))
-[] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults (Requires Investment of Wisdom)) Councilor Mira, Councilor Mical, 3 Sentinels, 3 Guardians, 8 Padawans (45 Wisdom)
--Heavy (You will establish a Praxeum proper on a Rebel held world (AT LEAST 45 WISDOM))

Here's a pared down version that leaves us with 4 Masters, 20 Guardians, 29 Sentinels, 14 Consulars, and 19 Padawans, while still meeting the maximum numbers.
TaliesinSkye said:
The only thing that matters is that they have more than we and the rebels do. By a lot. We can't win a fair fight with the Hutt forces. That is the bottom line, and I'm really hoping you can understand that, because it's not complicated.
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This is your assumption. Please do not confuse it with a fact. As well, the defections of major parts of the Cartels will make this even less plausible an assumption.
 
Ternasta said:
This is your assumption. Please do not confuse it with a fact. As well, the defections of major parts of the Cartels will make this even less plausible an assumption.
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It is a fact that the Hutts have enough conventional forces that the Republic would win a war, but would suffer enough losses that they really don't want to go to war.

It's not going out on a limb to conclude that a slave rebellion is going to have a lot less. I can't imagine how you think they would have wound up with more capital ships and other military hardware than the Hutts at this point.
 
Right, here's a potential distribution for patrols. Relatively conservative, but it still frees up most of our knights and Council masters for war operations.

CouncilorsCombatWisdomSkillDiplomacyVigilanceHealth
Bao-Dur755625
Atton Rand444443
Visas Marr544243
Mira355443
Brianna752514
Mical363524
Bastila Shan454433
Juhani742425

Patrol/TotalJediCombatWisdomSkillDiplomacyVigilanceHealth
37/46Padawan122212
17/38Sentinel233334
15/35Guardian532415
8/18Consular152543
1/1Master Watchman344334
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The Core (V4 req): 1 Sentinel, 1 Guardian, 1 Consular, 1 Master Watchman, 4 Padawans (C15, W23, S19, D23, V15, H24) (-Mira -1 Sentinel -1 Consular -2 Padawans +1 Master Watchman)
The Inner Rim (V10 req): Councilor Mira, 3 Sentinels, 4 Guardians, 2 Consulars, 8 Padawans (C39, W52, S42, D55, V33, H57) (-Bao-Dur -1 Sentinel -1 Consular +Mira +1 Guardian)
The Mid-Rim (V6 req): Councilor Juhani, 2 Sentinels, 4 Guardians, 7 Padawans (C38, W36, S30, D40, V19, H47) (-Atris -1 Sentinel -1 Guardian -1 Padawan + Juhani)
The Outer Rim (V1 req): 3 Sentinels, 1 Guardian, 2 Consulars, 6 Padawans (C19, W34, S27, D35, V24, H34) (-Atton Rand, -2 Sentinels -1 Guardian -1 Consular)
The Colonies (V1 req): 4 Sentinels, 1 Guardian, 1 Consular, 6 Padawans (C14, W24, S24, D24, V18, H28) (-Visas Marr -2 Sentinels -1 Guardian)
The Expansion Region (V6 req): Councilor Bastila Shan, 4 Sentinels, 4 Guardians, 2 Consulars, 6 Padawans (C34, W50, S39, D53, V33, H57) (-2 Sentinels -2 Guardians)

This leaves a total of 9 Padawans, 21 Sentinels, 20 Guardians, 10 Consulars available, as well as Bao-Dur, Atton, Visas, Brianna, and Mical available. I ended up leaving Council members and our only Master Watchman in the "hot zone" patrol routes and the Core, though if needed the Watchman can probably be pried loose. This does tie up a lot of our Padawans, but to be honest I suspect we're better off that way and bringing more quality into war ops than quantity.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
It is a fact that the Hutts have enough conventional forces that the Republic would win a war, but would suffer enough losses that they really don't want to go to war.

It's not going out on a limb to conclude that a slave rebellion is going to have a lot less. I can't imagine how you think they would have wound up with more capital ships and other military hardware than the Hutts at this point.
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Please pay attention: the plan is to splinter the Hutt Cartels by helping defectors and encouraging high-rankers to split off from the Cartels. As well, a Praxeum will allow us to give a additional carrot to Hutts that might be wavering, with the rebellion's stick being enhanced by both raids and assistance. The point is to peel the Cartels apart, hit the fracture lines and enhance them, and destroy the Cartels piece by piece with the aid of the Hutts that we tempt away from them.
 
Ternasta said:
Please pay attention: the plan is to splinter the Hutt Cartels by helping defectors and encouraging high-rankers to split off from the Cartels. As well, a Praxeum will allow us to give a additional carrot to Hutts that might be wavering, with the rebellion's stick being enhanced by both raids and assistance. The point is to peel the Cartels apart, hit the fracture lines and enhance them, and destroy the Cartels piece by piece with the aid of the Hutts that we tempt away from them.
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There's no call for rudeness. Seriously, none. Don't do that. If it happens again I'll just add you to my ignore list and move on.

Now, from what you're saying it sounds like your strategic plan hinges on wild success at getting a substantial amount of Hutts and/or Hutt military forces to defect to the side of the slave rebellion.

If your strategic plan requires very optimistic assumptions to work, it's a bad strategic plan. You need an approach that works in a wide range of possible scenarios. Otherwise when something goes wrong you're up a creek without a paddle.
 
Strunkriidiisk said:
This leaves a total of 9 Padawans, 21 Sentinels, 20 Guardians, 10 Consulars available, as well as Bao-Dur, Atton, Visas, Brianna, and Mical available. I ended up leaving Council members and our only Master Watchman in the "hot zone" patrol routes and the Core, though if needed the Watchman can probably be pried loose. This does tie up a lot of our Padawans, but to be honest I suspect we're better off that way and bringing more quality into war ops than quantity.
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[] Plan: Passion, Yet Serenity v3
-[] Physically Aid Rebel Forces (Requires investment of Combat) Councilor Brianna, 8 Guardians (47 Combat)
--Heavy (You will launch raids towards Nar Shaddaa, to help Rebel forces (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
-[] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships (Requires investment of Skill) Councilor Atton Rand, 12 Sentinels, 3 Guardians (46 Skill)
--Heavy (You will help redesign the Rebel Fleet from its Hutt Origin (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
-[] Facilitate Hutt Defections (Requires Investment of Diplomacy) Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 2 Consulars, 5 Guardians, 4 Sentinels (48 Diplomacy)
--Heavy (You will attempt to convince higher ranking Hutts, such as Vogga who has business interests in selling his fuel, to defect to the Rebels (AT LEAST 45 Diplomacy))
-[] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults (Requires Investment of Wisdom)) Councilor Mical, 3 Sentinels, 3 Guardians, 5 Consulars(48 Wisdom)
--Heavy (You will establish a Praxeum proper on a Rebel held world (AT LEAST 45 WISDOM))

This should fit those parameters. Please check my math, I'm a bit worried after doing all of that several times.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
It doesn't matter how physically large it is, that wasn't what I was talking about. Obviously. It would be a priority target the instant it was discovered.

As for the rest of your argument here, you're presuming that the only way to approach this is to exert influence in Hutt space. That isn't the only possible strategy here, or even necessarily the best one, and even if it were the best one, I don't think it would be worth the cost in dead Jedi.

The only thing that matters is that they have more than we and the rebels do. By a lot. We can't win a fair fight with the Hutt forces. That is the bottom line, and I'm really hoping you can understand that, because it's not complicated.

No, many of us explicitly didn't want to get involved in fighting in Hutt space. Please don't assume that everyone agrees with you. We don't need to go into Hutt space, or do any of the other things you insist we 'need' to do.

We can effectively fight the Hutts in Republic space by starving them of resources and getting aid to the rebels. This preserves our strength while getting the job done. Every Jedi that dies now is a Jedi we won't have forever afterward for patrols and other crises.
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That's just... not how Jedi operate though. Jedi act in service of the people, of the downtrodden, and in doing so operate amongst them. Failing to do that is exactly when the order winds itself into stagnation. It's how outreach works, and it's easily the most effective method in the Order's toolkit. Sure, I guess we can keep cloistered in our own teritory but that just keeps us removed from the needs of the situation and dulls responsiveness. It also affects how deep into Hutt infrastructure we can affect, and if we don't deal with the infrastructure, we'll just be treating the symptoms. Forever.

The Jedi order stakes a lot of its reputation, its ability to inspire and affect change, on its willingness to stick its neck out and put itself on the line. So considering how the last vote went, and the speech consequentially made, it's going to seem like a bit of a wet fart at best if we just keep distant and remotely engaged. If we're shy of pursuing one of the most Jedi methods, then maybe we're not playing sufficiently as the Jedi order... or at least a healthy one.

The last vote set the tone for the conflict, and I don't think anything but indecision and neutering of either position can come from trying to pull away from the spirit of that vote's outcome.

We literally don't even need to funnel loads of Jedi into this. Not being able to win a fair fight is entirely why I think investing a few Jedi to support and more importantly teach the cults would go a long way to undermining their power. It comes with risk, and that's the life of a Jedi, but we're not guaranteed to get found, or an inability to escape should we be. We have stealth specialists, we have Jedi who're slippery and who have dedicated themselves to pretty much exactly this sort of hostile environment work. If we shy away from all risk then we'll assuredly be undamaged, but I don't think we'll have much overall effect in the long run.

I'd be prepared to compromise that we don't necessarily need the praxeum immediately, but I do think we need some tangible growth assisting presence who are actually there and can react to the situation. If we are not there in some capacity, then we are not there in the hearts and minds of those we want to reach and help.

Or to put it more practically and somewhat relevant to current events: Zoom call troubleshooting and teaching has severe limitations that the entire world has recently crash tested for itself.

Strunkriidiisk said:
Right, here's a potential distribution for patrols. Relatively conservative, but it still frees up most of our knights and Council masters for war operations.



The Core (V4 req): 1 Sentinel, 1 Guardian, 1 Consular, 1 Master Watchman, 4 Padawans (C15, W23, S19, D23, V15, H24)
The Inner Rim (V10 req): Councilor Mira, 3 Sentinels, 4 Guardians, 2 Consulars, 8 Padawans (C39, W52, S42, D55, V33, H57)
The Mid-Rim (V6 req): Councilor Juhani, 2 Sentinels, 4 Guardians, 7 Padawans (C38, W36, S30, D40, V19, H47)
The Outer Rim (V1 req): 3 Sentinels, 1 Guardian, 2 Consulars, 6 Padawans (C19, W34, S27, D35, V24, H34)
The Colonies (V1 req): 4 Sentinels, 1 Guardian, 1 Consular, 6 Padawans (C14, W24, S24, D24, V18, H28)
The Expansion Region (V6 req): Councilor Bastila Shan, 4 Sentinels, 4 Guardians, 2 Consulars, 6 Padawans (C34, W50, S39, D53, V33, H57)

This leaves a total of 9 Padawans, 21 Sentinels, 20 Guardians, 10 Consulars available, as well as Bao-Dur, Atton, Visas, Brianna, and Mical available. I ended up leaving Council members and our only Master Watchman in the "hot zone" patrol routes and the Core, though if needed the Watchman can probably be pried loose. This does tie up a lot of our Padawans, but to be honest I suspect we're better off that way and bringing more quality into war ops than quantity.
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I like this as a basis to build a vote from for our Hutt assignments.

Hmm, idle other thought I wish I'd had early, exactly how much surplus is left over from the Mandalorian and JC Wars? It'll be a bit outdated now, but if the Republic doesn't need it...

Ternasta said:
[] Plan: Passion, Yet Serenity v3
-[] Physically Aid Rebel Forces (Requires investment of Combat) Councilor Brianna, 8 Guardians (47 Combat)
--Heavy (You will launch raids towards Nar Shaddaa, to help Rebel forces (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
-[] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships (Requires investment of Skill) Councilor Atton Rand, 12 Sentinels, 3 Guardians (46 Skill)
--Heavy (You will help redesign the Rebel Fleet from its Hutt Origin (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
-[] Facilitate Hutt Defections (Requires Investment of Diplomacy) Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 2 Consulars, 5 Guardians, 4 Sentinels (48 Diplomacy)
--Heavy (You will attempt to convince higher ranking Hutts, such as Vogga who has business interests in selling his fuel, to defect to the Rebels (AT LEAST 45 Diplomacy))
-[] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults (Requires Investment of Wisdom)) Councilor Mical, 3 Sentinels, 3 Guardians, 5 Consulars(48 Wisdom)
--Heavy (You will establish a Praxeum proper on a Rebel held world (AT LEAST 45 WISDOM))

This should fit those parameters. Please check my math, I'm a bit worried after doing all of that several times.
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I do think going heavy on defections now won't necessarily lead to much. I think we need to hit a sweet spot of making them bleed a bit that it looks like the Kadijics are actually overthrowable, and then scoop as many up when we get to that point. And then promptly shut the window when we start to really destabilise them so people can't use it wantonly as a get out of jail free card.
 
The Englanderish said:
I do think going heavy on defections now won't necessarily lead to much. I think we need to hit a sweet spot of making them bleed a bit that it looks like the Kadijics are actually overthrowable, and then scoop as many up when we get to that point. And then promptly shut the window when we start to really destabilise them so people can't use it wantonly as a get out of jail free card.
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Hmm, you have a point. Not sure what the sweet spot would be, though. I would like Bao-Dur to run that since he is the Grandmaster, but I'm not married to the plan.
 
Ternasta said:
[] Plan: Passion, Yet Serenity v3
-[] Physically Aid Rebel Forces (Requires investment of Combat) Councilor Brianna, 8 Guardians (47 Combat)
--Heavy (You will launch raids towards Nar Shaddaa, to help Rebel forces (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
-[] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships (Requires investment of Skill) Councilor Atton Rand, 12 Sentinels, 3 Guardians (46 Skill)
--Heavy (You will help redesign the Rebel Fleet from its Hutt Origin (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
-[] Facilitate Hutt Defections (Requires Investment of Diplomacy) Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 2 Consulars, 5 Guardians, 4 Sentinels (48 Diplomacy)
--Heavy (You will attempt to convince higher ranking Hutts, such as Vogga who has business interests in selling his fuel, to defect to the Rebels (AT LEAST 45 Diplomacy))
-[] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults (Requires Investment of Wisdom)) Councilor Mical, 3 Sentinels, 3 Guardians, 5 Consulars(48 Wisdom)
--Heavy (You will establish a Praxeum proper on a Rebel held world (AT LEAST 45 WISDOM))

This should fit those parameters. Please check my math, I'm a bit worried after doing all of that several times.
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You've left the 9 Padawans out, as well as 2 Sentinels, 1 Guardian, and 3 Consulars unassigned unless you're reserving them for internal Republic-space actions.

You'll also probably want to reformat it more like so for ease of reading (the vote counter only picks up stuff on the same unbroken line):
[] Plan: Passion, Yet Serenity vX
-[] Physically Aid Rebel Forces - Heavy (Councilor Brianna, 8 Guardians (47 Combat))
-[] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships - Heavy (Councilor Atton Rand, 12 Sentinels, 3 Guardians (46 Skill))
-[] Facilitate Hutt Defections - Heavy (Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 2 Consulars, 5 Guardians, 4 Sentinels (48 Diplomacy))
-[] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults - Heavy (Councilor Mical, 3 Sentinels, 3 Guardians, 5 Consulars (48 Wisdom))
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Strunkriidiisk said:
You've left the 9 Padawans out, as well as 2 Sentinels, 1 Guardian, and 3 Consulars unassigned unless you're reserving them for internal Republic-space actions.
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I was thinking that having a reserve would help, just in case. As well, the Consulars are needed for the Ambassadors, I believe. Or is that part of the Patrol Route? Not sure.
[] Plan: Passion, Yet Serenity v3
-[] Physically Aid Rebel Forces - Heavy (Councilor Brianna, 8 Guardians (47 Combat))
-[] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships - Heavy (Councilor Atton Rand, 12 Sentinels, 3 Guardians (46 Skill))
-[] Facilitate Hutt Defections - Heavy (Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 2 Consulars, 5 Guardians, 4 Sentinels (48 Diplomacy))
-[] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults - Heavy (Councilor Mical, 3 Sentinels, 3 Guardians, 5 Consulars(49 Wisdom))

How's this work?
 
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Ternasta said:
I was thinking that having a reserve would help, just in case. As well, the Consulars are needed for the Ambassadors, I believe. Or is that part of the Patrol Route? Not sure.
[] Plan: Passion, Yet Serenity v3
-[] Physically Aid Rebel Forces - Heavy (Councilor Brianna, 8 Guardians (47 Combat))
-[] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships - Heavy (Councilor Atton Rand, 12 Sentinels, 3 Guardians (46 Skill))
-[] Facilitate Hutt Defections - Heavy (Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 2 Consulars, 5 Guardians, 4 Sentinels (48 Diplomacy))
-[] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults - Heavy (Councilor Mical, 3 Sentinels, 3 Guardians, 5 Consulars(48 Wisdom))

How's this format?
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Sorry, forgot to add that your math is slightly off. Your total Wisdom for the Syncretic Cults action should be 49, not 48.
 
The Englanderish said:
I do think going heavy on defections now won't necessarily lead to much. I think we need to hit a sweet spot of making them bleed a bit that it looks like the Kadijics are actually overthrowable, and then scoop as many up when we get to that point. And then promptly shut the window when we start to really destabilise them so people can't use it wantonly as a get out of jail free card.
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That's actually a good point.

@Voikirium, does this vote set our operational plan for the whole war, or will there be options to re-allocate?
 
Strunkriidiisk said:
That's actually a good point.

@Voikirium, does this vote set our operational plan for the whole war, or will there be options to re-allocate?
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On the one hand, I am incredibly tired of the strategic sugar rush that SV likes to indulge in where every five seconds they race to do Something because a thing went wrong. On the other hand, it would be sort of weird that the Jedi would not at least check.

Lemme think on it a bit.
 
Voikirium said:
On the one hand, I am incredibly tired of the strategic sugar rush that SV likes to indulge in where every five seconds they race to do Something because a thing went wrong. On the other hand, it would be sort of weird that the Jedi would not at least check.

Lemme think on it a bit.
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I was assuming it'd become a regular element along with our other stuff like research, since in no way do I expect this to be a quick in-n-out. Though yes, blow by blow would probably be a bit much.
 
Voikirium said:
On the one hand, I am incredibly tired of the strategic sugar rush that SV likes to indulge in where every five seconds they race to do Something because a thing went wrong. On the other hand, it would be sort of weird that the Jedi would not at least check.

Lemme think on it a bit.
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...One way it could be handled is to instead of having us assign groups to do general tasks. Make it so we assign to fronts, and give choices on what to prioritize, with the actual actions and 'action spreads' being decided by a mixture of chance and the general plan... 🤔
 
[X] Plan Sustainable Commitment
-[X] Destroy Hutt Affiliated Physical Infrastructure, such as warehouses, freighters, etc. (Requires investment of Combat)
-[X] Heavy (You will hit very hardened targets, such as mercenary barracks (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
-[X] 16 Jedi Guardians (80 Combat)
-[X] Strike Hutt Illicit Operations and Operators (Requires investment of Skill)
-[X] Heavy (Moguls, Kajidii, Overbosses (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
-[X] Mira, 1 Watchman, 15 Jedi Sentinels, 17 Padawans) (71 Skill)
-[X] Try and funnel support to the Rebels (Requires Investment of Diplomacy)
-[X] Medium (The Mid-Rim, far, though not far enough, from the Hutts, though considerably wealthier than the nearby (AT LEAST 30 Diplomacy))
-[X] Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 7 Consulars, 8 Padawans (48 Diplomacy)
 
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[X] Plan: Passion, Yet Serenity v3
-[X] Physically Aid Rebel Forces - Heavy (Councilor Brianna, 8 Guardians (47 Combat))
-[X] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships - Heavy (Councilor Atton Rand, 12 Sentinels, 3 Guardians (46 Skill))
-[X] Facilitate Hutt Defections - Heavy (Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 2 Consulars, 5 Guardians, 4 Sentinels (48 Diplomacy))
-[X] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults - Heavy (Councilor Mical, 3 Sentinels, 3 Guardians, 5 Consulars(49 Wisdom))
 
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