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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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Ithillid said:
Well, let's see if this works. If it does, it is a bit of a spoiler for the future of economic planning in the Global Defense Initiative.
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Personally, it is a bit hard to use on the phone due to how cramped it is and I dislike the inability to search for stuff in this new format. In the old format, I could just start for something like '+ Capital Goods' or '- Energy' to find all of the actions with that stuff or I could look for a word in the name of a project I wanted to find. Under this new format, I can no longer do that.
 
[X]Plan Organize Leadership and Gather Allies

Not really a fan of new format but it's fine, it's not like I have made anything like a plan in this quest.
 
BOTcommander said:
[ ][Carter]Heavy Space Suit Experiments 0/5C 0/3 AP 0/250 5C/turn
The Zone suit is already almost a space suit, designed to keep its wearer alive in a hostile environment. Using the suit's exoskeleton as a base, some of our engineers hope to produce a type of space suit with superior lifting capacity, life support and radiation protection.
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So uh @BOTcommander if CartersQuest used Zone Suits as the basis for it's Heavy Space Suits does that mean that the Havoc Mech which is:

Ithillid said:
[ ] Havoc Scout Mech Development
The final new asset is the Havoc scout mech. Intended as a supporting asset for Zone Troopers and Raiders, the Havoc as planned has a single standout feature. The Jump Jet. Able to bring more firepower than a Zone Trooper, a higher overground speed, and keep up with them on a series of controlled jets. Armed with a multiple grenade launcher and rotary railgun, it combines the best of both the Trooper and Raider armament systems.
(Progress 0/30: 10 Resources per die) (High Priority)
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basically a piece of upscaled power armor would open new Space Suit research avenues for your quest?
 
Simon_Jester said:
Each phase of Reykjavik is cheaper than the corresponding phase of Johannesburg, so in the long run investing in a Phase 5 Reykjavik will be cost-effective compared to completing Johannesburg. Of course, this hinges on our eventually being able to afford and complete a very expensive Light Industry megaproject... but then, so does Johannesburg.
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While Reykjavik is somewhat more efficient, Johannesburg has one major advantage over Reykjavik: Johannesburg gives discounts to mech and zone armor projects, while Reykjavik doesn't. In the long run, we're going to be building both mechs and zone armor, so even a small reduction there makes Johannesburg Phases 4 and 5 more valuable. In terms of pure Capital Goods, we might still want to do Reykjavik, and it does give us redundancy in case of an attack. But Reykjavik's fourth and fifth Phases are simply not worth as much as Johannesburg's.
Simon_Jester said:
I mean, you're right.

But if we just say "okay, we will do no new development funding and only fund deployments" then we are kind of fucking over the only department that's already finished all its deployments and has all future deployments gated behind a development project.

This is exactly how we wound up in the situation we had until recently, with the Steel Talons never getting funding to do anything and being ignored for several years. I don't consider us returning to that status quo a satisfactory outcome.

So I think we should throw them a damn bone and do a specific development project they want, even if we can't immediately do the deployment and have to wait a few quarters to have the resources and dice to spare on it. Because the alternative is to ignore them more or less forever since they don't have "shovel ready" hardware options and indeed "shovel ready" isn't really the point of their existence anyway.
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You need to look at the big picture. For the next three turns, we don't have 11 dice to throw at the Military. We only have 5 dice a turn. We might be able to free up one to three extra Free Dice for Q4, if we roll well on the Tiberium Suppressor. (Given we want 99% completion by the end of the year.) For the next three turns, we have a minimum of 15 Military dice, and up to 18 dice maximum. So, here's a list of what I think are essential military projects we need to get done before the end of the Plan.

Essential:

ASAT Phase 3. 3 dice.
Orca Refit. 3 dice.
Predator Refit. 2 dice.
URLS Deployment. 2 dice. (2nd dice to avoid lag.)
Two Governor Shipyards. 6 dice. (We don't want to leave one shipyard unfinished like we did with Zone Armor.)

Total: 16 dice, on average.

Our dice budget for the Military over the next three turns is incredibly tight. There's only so much wiggle room we might have, and only if we have good luck. And yet there's also a bunch of other projects we want done:

Stretch Goals:

Wartime Factory Refits. 1-2 dice.
Long Range Sensors 2. 4 dice.
Shimmer Shield Development. 1 die.
OSRCT Station. 3 dice.
URLS 2. 2 dice.
Shell Plants 4. 5 dice.
Ablat Plating 4. 2 dice.
Point Defense Refits. 4 dice.
Havoc Scout Mech Development. (Steel Talons.) 1 die.
Tactical Plasma Weapon Development. (Steel Talons.) 1 die.

Total: 25 dice, on average.

If we have good luck all around, we might be able to fit in one of these. Or if you disagree with me, we could swap a project here in place of a project in the previous list. But we can't do it all, and I'd argue many of these projects are more impactful and important than another Steel Talons project.

But say you disagree with me, and think keeping the Steel Talons happy is just too important. Say we do the Havoc Scout Development next turn. When are we going to Deploy those mechs? Certainly not Q3 or Q4 this year. And next Plan we're going to have our budget cut, which means diverting much of our Resources and Free Dice to Tiberium once again. It could easily be over a full year before we get around to deploying the Havoc, and likely it would be even longer.

If we must do a Steel Talon project this Plan, I think it'd be best to do the Tactical Plasma Weapons. We won't be able to deploy those either anytime soon, but it's creating weapons for the wider military rather than a much more personal mech project. I think we could much more comfortably sit on undeployed plasma weapons than we can an undeployed mech project. But even then I'd still argue that it'd be far safer to do a Steel Talon project in Q4 of this year rather than Q2 next turn.
 
Derpmind said:
If we have good luck all around, we might be able to fit in one of these. Or if you disagree with me, we could swap a project here in place of a project in the previous list. But we can't do it all, and I'd argue many of these projects are more impactful and important than another Steel Talons project.

But say you disagree with me, and think keeping the Steel Talons happy is just too important. Say we do the Havoc Scout Development next turn. When are we going to Deploy those mechs? Certainly not Q3 or Q4 this year. And next Plan we're going to have our budget cut, which means diverting much of our Resources and Free Dice to Tiberium once again. It could easily be over a full year before we get around to deploying the Havoc, and likely it would be even longer.

If we must do a Steel Talon project this Plan, I think it'd be best to do the Tactical Plasma Weapons. We won't be able to deploy those either anytime soon, but it's creating weapons for the wider military rather than a much more personal mech project. I think we could much more comfortably sit on undeployed plasma weapons than we can an undeployed mech project. But even then I'd still argue that it'd be far safer to do a Steel Talon project in Q4 of this year rather than Q2 next turn.
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Since you haven't mentioned it just researching Havoc Scout Mechs gets us more space suit research in SCEDQuest:

BOTcommander said:
hm, probably, some kind of assisting space mech.
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Since the fusion engine research got us both fusion lift vehicles in that quest when it was researched. So there is also that angle to consider.
 
Dmol8 said:
Since you haven't mentioned it just researching Havoc Scout Mechs gets us more space suit research in SCEDQuest:



Since the fusion engine research got us both fusion lift vehicles in that quest when it was researched. So there is also that angle to consider.
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Unlocking stuff in SCEDQuest is like a bottom tier argument for doing stuff in the main quest, if anything give Schimmer shield.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Do you really think the Talons are going to be happier with NO funding to do anything whatsoever, than they will be getting funding to develop something that doesn't immediately hit deployment?
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In a word, yes. Because "no funding whatsoever" for the Talons specifically means the dice are going towards more missile production, or more shell production, or more ablative plating production, or more anti-stealth sensor production, or more shipyards, or half a dozen other things that actually DO help the Steel Talons more than doodling a cool mech on a bar napkin and then refusing to build it for years. Ablative plating isn't their very own special snowflake dedicated Talons project, but they still get some use out of it. Missiles aren't their very own special snowflake dedicated Talons project, but they still get some use out of them etc.

I don't think the Talons deserve any more special consideration than the Air Force or Space Force, and we're perfectly fine starving those latter two for years on end. The Air Force went for years without getting anything between finishing the Apollo factories and the new round of Orca refits/missile development. Space Force hasn't gotten a penny since last FYP. The Talons can suck it up and wait, I honestly don't care if they have a tantrum they aren't any more special than any other branch of the military. The Talons got a sprint focused on them about a year ago where we banged out the Titans and multiple laser R&D projects in their sector, they can wait while the other branches get some love and make do with their slice of the budget "merely" being more cases of ablative plating and more advanced anti-stealth sensors and a navy that can actually deliver their mechs to where they need to go. Because, again, it's not like they're getting nothing they just aren't getting their own personal pet projects funded.
 
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A shame we want ASAT to protect the major investments into stabalizers next turn else we could have done space laser defense first as those go on stations and the next ASAT phase is building a backup control station in space.
 
I have a proto-plan that tries to do both Stabilizers and our fancy new scout spaceship. Due to the demands of well, everything else, I had to cut military spending to the bone, putting dice on Ablat plating because shipyards and ASAT were too expensive. I did decide to plow 5 leftover R into prosthetics instead of medical schools, and do the parks programs to get cheapish political points. Snagging the last die on Lunar Regolith Harvesting instead of putting those 30 R on the Pathfinder is a bit painful, but I hope that the extra resources pay us back over the coming turns. My hope is that completing Pathfinder will start the automated exploration of the solar system, turning up new and interesting things each turn.

Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 2) 1 die 15 R
Mecca/Jeddah Planned City (Phase 3) 4 dice+1 Tiberium die, 100R
North Boston Chip Fabricator Stage 4 5 dice 75 R
Chemical Fertilizer Plants: 2 dice 30 R
Green Zone Aquaponics: 2 dice, 20 R
Coffee Kudzuu: 1 die, 20 R
Tiberium Stabilizers: 8 dice, 160 R
GDIS Pathfinder 2 dice 60 R
Orbital Cleanup 1 die, 15R
Lunar Regolith Harvesting, 1 die 30R
Advanced Prosthetics Development 1 die, 15R
Expand Medical Schools 1 die 10 R
Indoor Parks Programs 2 dice 10 R
ASAT Defense System (Phase 3) 1 die, 20 R
RWS Predator 2 dice 20 R
URLS 2 dice 30 R
Ablat Plating Deployment (Stage 4) 1 die 10R
 
Vehrec said:
I have a proto-plan that tries to do both Stabilizers and our fancy new scout spaceship. Due to the demands of well, everything else, I had to cut military spending to the bone, putting dice on Ablat plating because shipyards and ASAT were too expensive. I did decide to plow 5 leftover R into prosthetics instead of medical schools, and do the parks programs to get cheapish political points. Snagging the last die on Lunar Regolith Harvesting instead of putting those 30 R on the Pathfinder is a bit painful, but I hope that the extra resources pay us back over the coming turns. My hope is that completing Pathfinder will start the automated exploration of the solar system, turning up new and interesting things each turn.

Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 2) 1 die 15 R
Mecca/Jeddah Planned City (Phase 3) 4 dice+1 Tiberium die, 100R
North Boston Chip Fabricator Stage 4 5 dice 75 R
Chemical Fertilizer Plants: 2 dice 30 R
Green Zone Aquaponics: 2 dice, 20 R
Coffee Kudzuu: 1 die, 20 R
Tiberium Stabilizers: 8 dice, 160 R
GDIS Pathfinder 2 dice 60 R
Orbital Cleanup 1 die, 15R
Lunar Regolith Harvesting, 1 die 30R
Advanced Prosthetics Development 1 die, 15R
Expand Medical Schools 1 die 10 R
Indoor Parks Programs 2 dice 10 R
ASAT Defense System (Phase 3) 1 die, 20 R
RWS Predator 2 dice 20 R
URLS 2 dice 30 R
Ablat Plating Deployment (Stage 4) 1 die 10R
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OK did you miss the fact that we have a missile shortage if we don't finish the first phase of the new missiles deployment? Or do you think our priority should be the Pathfinder action right now?
 
Dmol8 said:
OK did you miss the fact that we have a missile shortage if we don't finish the first phase of the new missiles deployment? Or do you think our priority should be the Pathfinder action right now?
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I think 2 dice has a fairly good chance of completing the new missiles? We get +15 on each die, so we get 265 progress guarenteed. So we only need 35 progress from 2 dice, which seems pretty likely to me? Add in an omake, and we only need a result of 20 on two dice, which seems *very* likely, higher than 95%.
 
Dmol8 said:
Alright fair enough. Just be aware @Derpmind I am still keeping 3 dice on the rocket deployment since I am not willing to take the higher risk of low rolls delaying it for one more turn.
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Dmol8 said:
OK did you miss the fact that we have a missile shortage if we don't finish the first phase of the new missiles deployment? Or do you think our priority should be the Pathfinder action right now?
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Vehrec's 2 dice on URLS is enough. 2 dice has a 98.29% completion chance, while 3 dice has a 99.9996% completion chance. It's a trivial difference. Using a third die makes sense if you want to do the second phase of URLS soon, but otherwise 2 dice is sufficient.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The problem is that as a branch of the military they're small enough that we can nearly always rationalize spending the Military dice on Ground Forces, the Navy, or the Air Force. ZOCOM has the same problem, really. They'd be very unhappy with us if we hadn't made a point of building up most of the zone suit factories early on in the first Four Year Plan so they could at least hang on, while also supporting MARVs (a ZOCOM-adjacent project) and in general working closely with them on harvesting operations.
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Wasn't our cooperation with ZOCOM mostly an extension of our desire to harvest Tiberium to fund our economy and to expand into the Yellow Zones? At this point, ZOCOM isn't really that unique anymore with most of our forces doing what ZOCOM was tasked exclusively to doing? On another topic, with our focus on Tiberium abatement, does that mean that most of our forces and bases are armed with a surplus of sonic weaponry like the Shatterer and sonic emitter canons?
 
ThoughtMaster said:
Wasn't our cooperation with ZOCOM mostly an extension of our desire to harvest Tiberium to fund our economy and to expand into the Yellow Zones? At this point, ZOCOM isn't really that unique anymore with most of our forces doing what ZOCOM was tasked exclusively to doing? On another topic, with our focus on Tiberium abatement, does that mean that most of our forces and bases are armed with a surplus of sonic weaponry like the Shatterer and sonic emitter canons?
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No, it does not. They have been using all that you can produce, but right now production is not keeping up with the demand. Because you have not refit the factories that produced that hardware to make more.
 
Can we please table the snide remarks back and forth about the Steel Talons for a while? I'm absolutely biased (I love Mechs and love the Talons), but it's getting fucking exhausting.

I get it. Their very existence, and the fact they don't trust us, is controversial.
I get it. We have to make difficult decisions with budgets.

Just...can we please just drop it for a while?
This is one of those things that's frustrating because it starts to feel like we're drawing battle lines and that I'm Bad and Wrong and Stupid for not agreeing with some posters (might not be the intent but the tone and word choices used still lead there) and that makes this a distinctly un-fun thread to be in.
 
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