Because ordinary people like you and me will give thought to how it could affect others. A psychopath is physically incapable of doing such a thing. And since they know they are different from everyone else, they will hire and promote other psychopaths who will aid and abet them. And over time the pathocracy gets more entrenched and extreme since a psychopath is always thinking 'Who else could be a danger to me?' and so on and so forth. And a pathocracy can hide behind any system, but it's more predisposed to certain ones, such as communism, fascism, or any authoritarian and totalitarian system.

Okay, first, FMP is stated to consist from remnants of old system, the pre mass-nationalisation capitalist "pathocracy".
Second, describing communism as authoritarian and moreover, equaling it with fascism, shows massive lack of understanding of it.
 
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Incorrect. We have some projects that will lead to +Labor (Colombo Planned City), and when it becomes relevant will get others, because currently our automation programs are focused on maximizing output, not minimizing workforce.
(Yes, this is mostly from the discord, but also IIRC it's been stated as a general principle that projects will show themselves as need arises.)
Accerlate production of.
Accerlate.

I think my brain is picking a word that does not mean to you (and therefore prbly most ppl) what it currently means to me, so it's past time i call this a night. I apolgise for my miscommunication.

(I said bolded bit too. We must have different takeaways from that statement if we are both using it to support opposing points)
 
[X] Plan Rockets, Rails, Regolith
-[X] Infrastructure (5/5 dice, 80R)
--[X] Rail Link Reconstruction (Phase 3), [3 dice, 45R, 86%]
--[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 2), [1 dice, 15R, 0%]
--[X] Mecca/Jeddah Planned City (Phase 2), [1 dice, 20R, 0%]
-[X] Heavy Industry (5/5 dice 80R)
--[X] Synchronized Cycle Fusion Plants, [1 dice, 20R, 100%]
--[X] North Boston Chip Fabrication (Phase 4), [4 dice, 60R, 0%]
-[X] Light and Chemical Industry (2/4 dice, 50R)
--[X] Superconductor Foundries, [1 dice, 30R, 100%]
--[X] Johannesburg Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 3), [1 dice, 20R, 96%]
-[X] Agriculture (3/3 dice 30R)
--[X] Yellow Zone Purification Facilities (Phase 1), [3 dice, 30R, 84%]
-[X] Tiberium (5/5 dice, 110R)
--[X] Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting (Phase 5), [2 dice, 40R, 93%]
--[X] Mecca/Jeddah Planned City (Phase 2), [2 dice, 40R, 0%]
--[X] Tiberium Stabilizer Development, [1 dice, 30R, 100%]
-[X] Orbital (3/3 +2 free dice, 100R)
--[X] Lunar Regolith Harvesting (Phase 1), [5 dice, 100R, 88%]
-[X] Services (2/4 dice 20R)
--[X] Mental Healthcare Training Programs, [2 dice, 20R, 95%]
-[X] Military (5/5 + 4 free dice, 140R)
--[X] Reclamator Fleet RZ-7 North (Super MARVs), [1 dice, 20R, 88%]
--[X] Long Range Sensor System Deployment, [1 dice, 25R, 100%]
--[X] Remote Weapons System Deployment Predator, [1 dice, 10R, 1/2.5 median chance]
--[X] Universal Rocket Launch System Deployment (Phase 1), [6 dice, 90R, 93%]
-[X] Bureaucracy (3/3 dice)
--[X] Security Reviews (Bureaucracy)
615/615R used, 6/6 free dice used

For Infrastructure, keep going with Mecca and BZ Arcos. Where I strongly disagree with the other planners is that we really want 3 dice on Rail Links this turn. The turn results explicitly say a surge of resources is needed,

While at this time military resources are not being affected, surging resources to ensure that this is a transitory problem is likely to be critical, as the military lines will need to be closed for work at some point soon. (Bolded emphasis mine)

I find it odd that there are so many people willing to vote for throwing all the free dice into the military, but no leading plans having 3 dice on Rails so far, when its explicitly called out that it is going to cause problems for the military.

For LCI and HI, keep going with the usual priorities and finishing up projects. I don't have grants because the QM has explicitly said that the next Forgotten Conference is in Q2, so I think taking grants now is premature when we might throw even more RpT to the Forgotten at the conference.

For Agri, start the purification > Aquaponics chain.

For Tiberium, the usual spread of YZ Harvesting, Mecca, and Tib Stabilizer.

For Orbital and Military, this is the most controversial part of the plan. I dont have any dice on Cruisers, instead i took those 2 dice and threw them in space mining. I view this as an even longer term, strategic investment.
- Because space is expensive, we should be consistently throwing in some free dice each turn, rather than trying to make up for it by crash rushing it later on, we will eventually choke on the R cost. It's better to spread the budget out evenly and take a mix of more expensive and cheap options each turn.
- Space is a long term, strategic investment that lets us have a better negotiating position with Kane, and we have consistently underinvested in it.
- Space mining wont get reallocated.
- Space mining will lead to cost reductions (or progress reductions) to space projects because more stuff is directly manufactured in space, compared to on the ground.
- Next phase of space mining will have cheaper progress too.
- We have had only a 10 RpT increase in 3 turns. Granted, that is because the MARV roll has screwed us, but I am utterly unwilling to potentially fall behind more on income, esp income that wont get reallocated. Space mining is a long term investment to screw Kane over, and also a long term investment in the budget.
- Also, I have 6 dice on rockets, which is more than what most plans have. So if URLS is your big concern this turn, this plan covers it well, and will certainly and definitely overkill and finish Phase 2 next turn no problem.
- Now that we know the supersub is for transport purposes, that takes some pressure off Cruisers. Not that we shouldnt keep doing them, but going one turn without is alright.

If you really want Talons, I have a variant below. The only change is moving 1 die from URLS to Havoc Mechs.

[X] Plan Rockets, Rails, Regolith + Talons
-[X] Infrastructure (5/5 dice, 80R)
--[X] Rail Link Reconstruction (Phase 3), [3 dice, 45R, 86%]
--[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 2), [1 dice, 15R, 0%]
--[X] Mecca/Jeddah Planned City (Phase 2), [1 dice, 20R, 0%]
-[X] Heavy Industry (5/5 dice 80R)
--[X] Synchronized Cycle Fusion Plants, [1 dice, 20R, 100%]
--[X] North Boston Chip Fabrication (Phase 4), [4 dice, 60R, 0%]
-[X] Light and Chemical Industry (2/4 dice, 50R)
--[X] Superconductor Foundries, [1 dice, 30R, 100%]
--[X] Johannesburg Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 3), [1 dice, 20R, 96%]
-[X] Agriculture (3/3 dice 30R)
--[X] Yellow Zone Purification Facilities (Phase 1), [3 dice, 30R, 84%]
-[X] Tiberium (5/5 dice, 110R)
--[X] Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting (Phase 5), [2 dice, 40R, 93%]
--[X] Mecca/Jeddah Planned City (Phase 2), [2 dice, 40R, 0%]
--[X] Tiberium Stabilizer Development, [1 dice, 30R, 100%]
-[X] Orbital (3/3 +2 free dice, 100R)
--[X] Lunar Regolith Harvesting (Phase 1), [5 dice, 100R, 88%]
-[X] Services (2/4 dice 20R)
--[X] Mental Healthcare Training Programs, [2 dice, 20R, 95%]
-[X] Military (5/5 + 4 free dice, 140R)
--[X] Reclamator Fleet RZ-7 North (Super MARVs), [1 dice, 20R, 88%]
--[X] Long Range Sensor System Deployment, [1 dice, 25R, 100%]
--[X] Remote Weapons System Deployment Predator, [1 dice, 10R, 1/2.5 median chance]
--[X] Universal Rocket Launch System Deployment (Phase 1), [5 dice, 75R, 74%]
--[X] Havoc Scout Mech Development, [1 dice, 10R, 100%]
-[X] Bureaucracy (3/3 dice)
--[X] Security Reviews (Bureaucracy)
610/615R used, 6/6 free dice used
 
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How is that possible? the position I am arguing from and for is mechanical, and completely against ideological. In fact I have been and still am arguing for how bad of an idea grants are to do at the moment is bad for resource management reasons, and nothing against how the economy has to be shaped.
Honestly, I haven't been reading your posts since your extremist response towards the military when they put their foot down and made us to the rest of the military goals in the plan before doing more glacier mines and other stuff and it became clear you had an extremist stance of putting abatement above all else.

I wouldn't have even read this post I am quoting if you hadn't directly quoted me.
 
[X] Plan Military and All Dice
[X] Plan Sorry Carter without grants
[X] Plan Military and All Dice with Bureaucracy Review Instead Of Services

Eh I'll take the new version too.
yep,grants do have costs initially

they are supposed to esentially make buisness grow,and buisness will require some sort of input (capital and materials) to generate output (goods and services),because we are the only industry,buisness will have to get all their inputs from us,at least initially
thing is output will keep growing over time and input will become more efficient and sustainable as buisness form connexions and buy things from each other instead of relying on the central government for everything

so is a initial stage drag,for midterm benefit that free resources and dices by not having to focus on a single thing,and long term is a massive benefit as outputs become bigger and bigger

this isnt the case with housing grants tho,because we know for a fact we will lose blue zones,meaning all the luxury housing will be lost
so is better to just build arcologies
I mean, that's a fine argument for growing benefits over time, but do the costs of Grants ever stop? even after the businesses are established and no longer need more funding to operate? If not, then I worry to what degree of costs the Grants can lead to, and just how much people would continue to invest in more of them if the income loss can never be taken back, while most of the world is still a danger to the people that wants those Grants to begin with.
 
(I said bolded bit too. We must have different takeaways from that statement if we are both using it to support opposing points)
Sorry, I may have skipped something you said*, What I meant was that we would get automation programs designed to free up labor, with less emphasis on increasing production.

*There have been too many words recently.
I mean, that's a fine argument for growing benefits over time, but do the costs of Grants ever stop? even after the businesses are established and no longer need more funding to operate? If not, then I worry to what degree of costs the Grants can lead to, and just how much people would continue to invest in more of them if the income loss can never be taken back, while most of the world is still a danger to the people that wants those Grants to begin with.
Ithillid has said that they are not a trap option. Thus, while the cost may not go away, the benefits of the Grants programs will, in the long run, negate the costs. And Ithillid has said that the secondary benefits from the LCI grant will increase faster than the services/restaurant one.
 
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[X] Plan Military and All Dice
[X] Plan Sorry Carter without grants
[X] Plan Military and All Dice with Bureaucracy Review Instead Of Services
 
What people seem to be forgetting is that regardless of the ideological position and I know that some people are picking grants just to annoy the people who don't like them.

We are already producing the goods the grants would produce through the LGI sectors we built/can build in much the same variety. We in no way shape or form need them and they are likely to start taking energy and capgoods over time.

Resources that we continually say we cannot afford to waste or spend frivolously.
Your first sentence is completely meaningless. I'm not even sure what you're going for? Somehow because there exists "illegitimate voters" there therefore cannot be "legitimate voters"?

With regards to the second statement, you're wrong. If you're paying attention to the narrative, there is a massive grey market for goods that people need that we are not producing. In fact, a great majority of the shit that a regular person may want or need, is far below our level of abstraction. So its much easier for Ithillid just give a general LCI grant and let the hypothetical people with needs make the things they need themselves. Then we can focus on fighting our war of extermination ... on two fronts ...

Also, the idea of "hidden costs" is not backed up by any evidence at all at the moment. The one case we know about, Housing Grants with a long term logistics cost, was revealed to us by the QM out the gate. Ithillid is not a sneaky QM; he does not give trap options, and the Grants have been the long term economy solution for the entirety of this quest as the GDI is, in Setting (hundreds of hours of games and story, and hundreds of pages of lore) a Capitalist Democracy (with hints of a strong Economic Oligarchy). We've absolutely destroyed the old oligarchs and pushed GDI as far left as is reasonable in this quest; this is why no matter how much people wish it so, it will never be a communist polity. If you want a communist polity, there are other Plan Quest that either started with one, or created one whole cloth to meet those very ideological needs.

Perhaps, in a century in game when we are in the sequel quest, it may get pushed that direction. Who knows, but Not in this particular quest, which the QM has said repeatedly.

Edit: I don't think the assumption that LCI grants could eventually eat Capital Goods is unreasonable, but I don't know if small start ups would eat enough to hit a full point on our level of abstraction in the short term, nor that those costs are inherent to grants alone.
 
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Because ordinary people like you and me will give thought to how it could affect others. A psychopath is physically incapable of doing such a thing. And since they know they are different from everyone else, they will hire and promote other psychopaths who will aid and abet them. And over time the pathocracy gets more entrenched and extreme since a psychopath is always thinking 'Who else could be a danger to me?' and so on and so forth. And a pathocracy can hide behind any system, but it's more predisposed to certain ones, such as communism, fascism, or any authoritarian and totalitarian system. It can also infect others, since psychopaths are willing to break any rules in the system, and once they're ensconced, their corruption seeps through the whole system.
There have been studies that show psychopaths are more common in capitalist professions up to 4 to 5 times more common.
 
I mean, that's a fine argument for growing benefits over time, but do the costs of Grants ever stop? even after the businesses are established and no longer need more funding to operate? If not, then I worry to what degree of costs the Grants can lead to, and just how much people would continue to invest in more of them if the income loss can never be taken back, while most of the world is still a danger to the people that wants those Grants to begin with.

i assume cost increases,but so do out capabilities and infrastructure with each plan we complete
and as market grows,the effort needed to keep with maintainance cost will be lower compared to the benefits we get out of them

Not more different than having an expensive project that eats up a lot of dice,but had permanent benefits to our plan
plus,as market grows,there should be a slowing down on the rate at wich maintaince cost increases (that because buisness begin to buy materials from other buisness instead of requesting them to us)
 
Okay, first, FMP is stated to consist from remnants of old system, the pre mass-nationalisation capitalist "pathocracy".
Second, describing communism as authoritarian and moreover, equaling it with fascism, shows massive lack of understanding of it.
On your first point, how do you know that they're the pathocrats? They're capitalists, that does not automatically make them psychopaths.
And as for your second point, I understand Communism quite well sir. I understand that it is used by predatory capitalists outside a country to destabilize that country and once it has done its job of wiping out the established order, it is destroyed as swiftly as possible, and the new owners take possession.
There have been studies that show psychopaths are more common in capitalist professions up to 4 to 5 times more common.
And how recent are these studies? And what do you mean by capitalist profession? Any private profession is automatically capitalist. Besides, remember what I said? Psychopaths, once they get in charge of a system hire more people like them, since they know others would despise them as monsters, which they are.
 
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There have been studies that show psychopaths are more common in capitalist professions up to 4 to 5 times more common.
On your first point, how do you know that they're the pathocrats? They're capitalists, that does not automatically make them psychopaths.
And as for your second point, I understand Communism quite well sir. I understand that it is used by predatory capitalists outside a country to destabilize that country and once it has done its job of wiping out the established order, it is destroyed as swiftly as possible, and the new owners take possession.

And how recent are these studies? And what do you mean by capitalist profession? Any private profession is automatically capitalist.
This has reached derail territory. Can we please stop this topic of conversation?
 
yep,grants do have costs initially

they are supposed to esentially make buisness grow,and buisness will require some sort of input (capital and materials) to generate output (goods and services),because we are the only industry,buisness will have to get all their inputs from us,at least initially
thing is output will keep growing over time and input will become more efficient and sustainable as buisness form connexions and buy things from each other instead of relying on the central government for everything

so is a initial stage drag,for midterm benefit that free resources and dices by not having to focus on a single thing,and long term is a massive benefit as outputs become bigger and bigger

this isnt the case with housing grants tho,because we know for a fact we will lose blue zones,meaning all the luxury housing will be lost
so is better to just build arcologies
I'm not saying anything about initial costs. I am clearly arguing on the basis of the ongoing costs that we do not see upfront.

Like the infrastructure cost we have been kindly told comes with housing grants because it is the cost of us building duplexes. Services costs labour so that translates into the ongoing cost for services.

I am thus extrapolating the ongoing costs using known costs for LCI. That comes down to labour, power and consumer goods. Please, feel free to examine my logic. I think it holds up.
 
[X] Plan Finishing Rollouts with URLS and Spider Cotton
[X] Plan Sorry Carter
I'm not sure Granger can centrally plan the toothbrushes, and I'm 99% sure the thread won't. And for God's sake stop freaking out about nonexistant megacorporations. They got burned to the ground by tib war iii, and we spent most of the ensuing decade salting the earth against them. Even if we went all in on grants it would likely take fifty years for the megas to start cropping up again, and by that point odds are we'll either be post scarcity because of Tiberium or dead because of Tiberium.
 
On your first point, how do you know that they're the pathocrats? They're capitalists, that does not automatically make them psychopaths.
And as for your second point, I understand Communism quite well sir. I understand that it is used by predatory capitalists outside a country to destabilize that country and once it has done its job of wiping out the established order, it is destroyed as swiftly as possible, and the new owners take possession.

And how recent are these studies? And what do you mean by capitalist profession? Any private profession is automatically capitalist. Besides, remember what I said? Psychopaths, once they get in charge of a system hire more people like them, since they know others would despise them as monsters, which they are.
How about from 2010 (The Disturbing Link Between Psychopathy And Leadership) business i feel very confident calling capitalist above normal
 
I'm not saying anything about initial costs. I am clearly arguing on the basis of the ongoing costs that we do not see upfront.

Like the infrastructure cost we have been kindly told comes with housing grants because it is the cost of us building duplexes. Services costs labour so that translates into the ongoing cost for services.

I am thus extrapolating the ongoing costs using known costs for LCI. That comes down to labour, power and consumer goods. Please, feel free to examine my logic. I think it holds up.

i im refering to said "implicit" costs tho

the idea is that is not a trap option but one that while it has its challengues it could be done otherwise the QM wouldnt have offered it,while we get implicit costs,those are balanced by the income increase and output increase,meaning we can afford to handle said costs

if light industry consumer goods grows to the point we only need minimal too moderate attention to consumer goods,then we have free dices and resources for the equivalent logistical and cap goods costs

if we take multiple grants,then we can make each industry should each other costs

the qm on discord said that long term,this are the industries that will stay on government hands

Long term, what would stay under government control is the military industrial complex, medicine, basic food, utilities, most telecommunications. A lot of other areas would see a mix to one degree or another.
 
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I'm not saying anything about initial costs. I am clearly arguing on the basis of the ongoing costs that we do not see upfront.

Like the infrastructure cost we have been kindly told comes with housing grants because it is the cost of us building duplexes. Services costs labour so that translates into the ongoing cost for services.

I am thus extrapolating the ongoing costs using known costs for LCI. That comes down to labour, power and consumer goods. Please, feel free to examine my logic. I think it holds up.
Creating a global network of super computers to run the entire global economy, took no power and 2 Cap goods. I don't think its unreasonable of the LCI private sector to eventually eat a point or two of Capital Goods, but I don't think we'll be seeing that at all on the short term. We're talking tiny Start Ups spread out over a dozen Blue Zones. So 1 Cap Good 8 turns later, maybe. I don't think power is going to become an issue at our level of abstractions. The amount of energy our Fusion and Fission Reactors produce is ludicrous and small industry won't be a burden on it compared to the massive Heavy Industry buildups we're doing.
 
@Chimeraguard @Void Stalker

As the people with the two leading plans, may I please, please appeal to you for 3 dice on Rail Links this turn?

The turn results explicitly say a surge of resources is needed and calls it out as critical,

While at this time military resources are not being affected, surging resources to ensure that this is a transitory problem is likely to be critical, as the military lines will need to be closed for work at some point soon. (Bolded emphasis mine)
 
[X] Plan Sorry Carter
[X] Plan Finishing Rollouts with URLS and Spider Cotton
[X] Plan Sorry Carter /w Wartime Factory Refits
[X] Plan Do The Missile Dance
[X]Plan Economic expansion
 
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@Chimeraguard @Void Stalker

As the people with the two leading plans, may I please, please appeal to you for 3 dice on Rail Links this turn?

The turn results explicitly say a surge of resources is needed and calls it out as critical,

While at this time military resources are not being affected, surging resources to ensure that this is a transitory problem is likely to be critical, as the military lines will need to be closed for work at some point soon. (Bolded emphasis mine)
Missed that but... yeah, fair enough. Hmm, question is whether to cut BZ Arcologies or Mecca. Normally I'd say BZ Arcologies easy, but the Arcologies we may have to keep running for political reasons.

EDIT: Word of GM says it's fine to temporarily halt BZ Arcology work.
 
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