Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Plan Probe Away
I'm switching to only voting for this plan. Plan Mil, YZ and Research might be similar to my plan in that it crashes tons of dice into the military, but wile a one-turn overinvestment might seem good, the actual priority this turn is getting the shell plants up ASAP. 5 dice for 86% just isn't nearly as secure as 6 dice for 96%. (Plus if as someone said Phase 3 is a 0/150 project, 6 dice now has a 35% chance to get both phases done.) And @Crazycryodude makes good points about how our income is already high enough to activate most of our dice, so now's the time to look further with projects like Perimeter Fencing for YZ mitigation and Near Body Survey Probes to prepare us for a real move into space. 4 dice into RZ Containment Lines was a mistake on my part, and 25R more expensive than doing the sonic fences we still need.
I'm switching to only voting for this plan. Plan Mil, YZ and Research might be similar to my plan in that it crashes tons of dice into the military, but wile a one-turn overinvestment might seem good, the actual priority this turn is getting the shell plants up ASAP. 5 dice for 86% just isn't nearly as secure as 6 dice for 96%. (Plus if as someone said Phase 3 is a 0/150 project, 6 dice now has a 35% chance to get both phases done.) And @Crazycryodude makes good points about how our income is already high enough to activate most of our dice, so now's the time to look further with projects like Perimeter Fencing for YZ mitigation and Near Body Survey Probes to prepare us for a real move into space. 4 dice into RZ Containment Lines was a mistake on my part, and 25R more expensive than doing the sonic fences we still need.
In regards to the budget, it's not just a question of how high our income is, but also of how high our expenses are, and there's been a general trend of increasing resource-costs for many of our options. Which means we need on average more resources to activate the same amount of dice, when compared to plans from much earlier turns, and I don't see any reason to assume that tendency will change. Not to mention that even if we already were at the point of being able to activate all of our dice, additional income still wouldn't hurt simply because we would be able to funnel it into the rest of GDI's government.
I also find it somewhat hypocritical of you to tell me how improving our income "takes effort away from other sectors of the economy that desperately need more money", when your plan has us spend resources on a luxury-option like space probes.
Regarding mitigation, BZ Fences is not the strongest abatement option; in terms of raw mitigation numbers per dice invested, YZ Harvesting is the most efficient option, followed by RZ Containment, with BZ Fencing only coming in third, RZ Harvesting fourth, and MARVs fifth.
YZ Harvesting: 300 progress per phase, 20R per die = ~3,75 dice/75R for 4 mitigation
RZ Containment: 180 progress per phase x2, 25R per die = ~4,5 dice/112,5R for 4 mitigation
BZ Fencing: 400 progress per phase, 15R per die = ~5 dice/75R for 4 mitigation
RZ Harvest: 130 progress per phase x3, 25R per die = ~4,875 dice/121,875R for 3 mitigation
MARVs:
- RZ Reclamator Hub: 105 progress, 20R/die = ~2 dice 40R, ~19 Overflow Lost
- S-MARV: 210 progress, 20R/die = ~4 dice/80R, ~38 Overflow Lost
- Total: ~6 dice/120R for 3 mitigation
You insist on BZ Fencing having some sort of "hidden synergy" in regards to abatement, but as far as I'm aware, the "synergy" between the BZ perimeter options was military in nature - not abatement - and consisted of the redoubts and outposts severely increasing the difficulty for Nod to launch incursions into the Blue Zones, with the perimeter fencing playing a comparatively minor part in that. Can you please provide proof of your claim?
Moving on to our military, your assertion that we can't get YZ mitigation via military dice is incorrect as the income and mitigation that a MARV fleet provides is dependent on the location it is built in; a MARV fleet built in a Yellow Zone would provide YZ mitigation along with a middling income, for example. We're simply prioritizing RZs for MARV construction right now as they provide the best income, and our RZ mitigation is still lacking, allowing us to address two issues at once, but the GM already informed us that we were ultimately expected to build MARV fleets everywhere.
Furthermore, the military is quite capable of supporting further YZ harvesting or RZ containment operations; that is something I specifically asked the GM about not too long ago:
These were the answers I received to those questions:
Considering that pretty much every single plan proposed this turn is addressing the lack of combat assets, with shell factories at the absolute minimum, and many building apollo fighter and/or hydrofoil factories besides, further YZ harvesting or RZ containment operations would not overstretch the military.
- Location
- USA
On income: we are down to about 4 or so dice in active though we do have to pick projects as if we went max expense than we would have more inactive. And even if the dice are not on the most urgent of fires than that means we can use them to get ahead of fires. And if we spool up income enough we can shift some over to the rest of the GDI to help them fill their parts better. Keep in mind that we took a large percentage of the budget at allocation start so rolling some back to the rest of the GDI will help them push further.
And RZ mit is important, each time we up the chance that we have a turn that we push back the RZ increases and that sort of thing would be a big win before the next election. Also at 3 dice the fencing project will not finish this turn. So that means only 1 mitigation so doing 5 dice next turn on fencing instead gives us the same results. RZ containment will have 2 phases finish for 4 mitigation this turn, so we are looking at 4 RZ and 1 YZ mit this turn and 4 YZ mit next turn vs 1 YZ mit this turn and 4 YZ mit plus whatever we use the other 3 tib dice for next turn. There is a major difference there. So probes talks about fencing but does not finish it earlier than the other plans will (next turn).
And RZ mit is important, each time we up the chance that we have a turn that we push back the RZ increases and that sort of thing would be a big win before the next election. Also at 3 dice the fencing project will not finish this turn. So that means only 1 mitigation so doing 5 dice next turn on fencing instead gives us the same results. RZ containment will have 2 phases finish for 4 mitigation this turn, so we are looking at 4 RZ and 1 YZ mit this turn and 4 YZ mit next turn vs 1 YZ mit this turn and 4 YZ mit plus whatever we use the other 3 tib dice for next turn. There is a major difference there. So probes talks about fencing but does not finish it earlier than the other plans will (next turn).
trooperist
Cinnamon Roll AI
[X] Plan Containment + Steady Progress
Space is one of the other sectors of the economy that desperately need more funding, Earth is fucked on a timeline measured in a decade or two and evacuating to space is humanity's only out right now. Yeah maybe Kane will show up with the TCN but we have no way to know that IC and our only option is space.
The turn we completed the BZ perimeter redoubts, we got an extra point of abatement beyond what the projects earned us, Ithillid confirmed that it wasn't an accounting error it was from the outposts and redoubts synergizing. And those two projects aren't even the ones really focused on Tiberium abatement, they're more military in nature like you say. Getting bonus abatement points despite being the military parts of the system makes me pretty certain that the actual dedicated anti-Tiberium part of the system will do even better.
Yeah eventually, dozens of turns into the future, we'll theoretically build MARVs in Yellow and Blue Zones too. In practical terms that's not happening until next FYP at the very earliest, and given how events tend to mess up our carefully laid plans very possibly never. The 5 MARV fleets we're going to do are already going to stretch the dice pool a bit, and every single one should go in a Red Zone. There will be no Yellow abatement points coming from the Military sector in the future on any timescale that matters, if you want to talk hypothetical 30 turn from now things there's no point to making any plans since everything is possible.
Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
[X] Plan Probe Away
- Location
- USA
Then you might want to put enough dice on Fencing to finish it this turn, otherwise we can drop 5 dice on it next turn for the same result and get other tib projects down this turn
BoSPaladin
The Paladin
[X] Plan Probe Away
I'm fine with 6 dice on the shell plant since any extra will go into the next phase.
I'm fine with 6 dice on the shell plant since any extra will go into the next phase.
- Location
- canada
Wow, I didn't even notice that part. So the BZ action of the probe plan is even less useful than I thought. Not only does it have no chance to provide any benefits from the investment done in the same turn, the same amount of resources could've been invested into the RZ action for potentially 2 more points of abatement and more income within the same turn instead.
- Location
- USA
Thanks to @Derpmind collecting all the percentages,for this turn on the same page as the turn post
[] Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing (Phase 2) 36/400 4 dice 60R 33%, 5 dice 75R 79%, 6 dice 90R 97%
So 4 dice to have a chance to finish, but really 5 or 6 dice for it to be likely to finish. Meanwhile Phase 2 on RZ containment with 4 dice is 94%. Unless you are trying to split the 6 dice into 3 and 3, no reason not to do RZ this turn and then drop 5 dice on Fencing next turn to have it online at the same time frame that probe has while picking 4 RZ mitigation and extra income to go full activation.
From what I have gathered, space probes is one of the projects that unlocks lunar/asteroid mining. Which potentially has a massive Resource payout, in addition to the previously mentioned probable need for evacuation. It's not a luxury option, it's prepping for future exploitation.
[X] Plan Probe Away
[X] Plan Containment + Steady Progress
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- Location
- The Underdark
Space probes are one of the vital steps on the road to being able to start building the supply chains to exploit the rest of the solar system for resources both big and small R. There are useful things in the asteroid belt, useful things on the moon, on mars, everywhere else (although some are harder to deal with than others). Probes are how you actually start finding those things, specifically looking at the surface minerals and some surface samples depending on some other choices.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
For... personal reasons... I've decided to support @Crazycryodude 's plan.
[X] Plan Probe Away
He might, for instance, believe that since there are far more people living at the Yellow/Blue boundary, successfully mitigating tiberium at that boundary will have greater immediate effects on public opinion and the quality of life. Sure, the Red Zones may by some small fraction of a percent more as a result between now and when we do the Red Zone containment too, but the chance to do good at the Yellow/Blue boundary where millions of people live is more important than the somewhat more immediate chance of doing good at the Red/Yellow boundary where virtually no one lives.
EDIT:
For example, there are probably significant numbers of people who were living in what were as of 2046 Blue Zones, that became Yellow Zones as the Yellow Zones expanded in the immediate postwar era. All of them are now either tiberium refugees or "welp, guess we and our kids now live in a Yellow Zone" people.
If they read about heroic efforts to contain the Red Zone half a continent away, they will approve.
If they read about the town they grew up in as a child, possibly the Yellow Zone neighborhood they still live in, being reclaimed and redesignated a Blue Zone, reconquered from tiberium... They will be fucking thrilled.
In terms of actually getting the public to approve of our constant extensive and costly efforts to fight tiberium, we are likely to get far more public approval from tiberium abatement at the Blue/Yellow line than at the Yellow/Red. The Yellow/Red line is ultimately no less important, maybe even more important... but we shouldn't neglect the Blue/Yellow line just because, statistically speaking, we've gotten it to the point where the Blue Zones slowly expand a little bit on average.
[X] Plan Probe Away
Unless, of course, he is gamblling on getting a large, immediate, significantly more than four-point reward of Yellow Zone mitigation (33% chance), and at most probably only needing to spend one more die to finish the job next turn... As opposed to getting only the relative certainty of four points of Red Zone mitigation.
He might, for instance, believe that since there are far more people living at the Yellow/Blue boundary, successfully mitigating tiberium at that boundary will have greater immediate effects on public opinion and the quality of life. Sure, the Red Zones may by some small fraction of a percent more as a result between now and when we do the Red Zone containment too, but the chance to do good at the Yellow/Blue boundary where millions of people live is more important than the somewhat more immediate chance of doing good at the Red/Yellow boundary where virtually no one lives.
EDIT:
For example, there are probably significant numbers of people who were living in what were as of 2046 Blue Zones, that became Yellow Zones as the Yellow Zones expanded in the immediate postwar era. All of them are now either tiberium refugees or "welp, guess we and our kids now live in a Yellow Zone" people.
If they read about heroic efforts to contain the Red Zone half a continent away, they will approve.
If they read about the town they grew up in as a child, possibly the Yellow Zone neighborhood they still live in, being reclaimed and redesignated a Blue Zone, reconquered from tiberium... They will be fucking thrilled.
In terms of actually getting the public to approve of our constant extensive and costly efforts to fight tiberium, we are likely to get far more public approval from tiberium abatement at the Blue/Yellow line than at the Yellow/Red. The Yellow/Red line is ultimately no less important, maybe even more important... but we shouldn't neglect the Blue/Yellow line just because, statistically speaking, we've gotten it to the point where the Blue Zones slowly expand a little bit on average.
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- Location
- USA
Realistically you should expect 2 dice next turn to finish fencing up, at which point once again we can do 5 dice on the project next turn for the same chance of success. All the time getting 4 points of RZ mit this turn (94%). So 3 fencing this turn and 2 next does not provide a noticeable difference than 5 next except in that it means we are passing on actions we can finish now so we are passing on RZ mit. It also means any plan next turn is operating 2 to 4 dice less which is likely in infra and orbitals.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
[blinks]
[reviews]
Hm.
I was under the honest but mistaken impression that @Crazycryodude had put four dice on Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing, rather than three. Four would give him a modest ~33% chance of clearing the action on this turn. On the other hand, since I support the actual Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing project and don't view it as wasted effort, so I'm content as-is.
...
@Crazycryodude , if it were me, I might do the following:
1) Convert the one die of Red Zone Containment Lines (and the assured two points of Red Zone mitigation) into a die of Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing (and the 33% probability of getting what @Ithillid has implicitly told us will be six or more points of Yellow Zone mitigation, because we're getting "more than" one point of synergy out of it).
Those who view Red Zone mitigation as inherently more important than Yellow Zone mitigation will not like this, but personally I think they're out of touch with the things our citizens want to see out of our tiberium mitigation efforts: namely, prioritization of rolling back land contaminated by tiberium since 2046 and the start of the Third Tiberium War, rather than partial rollback and reclamation of land now barren, which has been largely taken over by tiberium since the 2030s or earlier.
2) I would then take the 10 resources thus freed up and spend them somewhere else. Examples:
2a) Spend 10 Resources and activate a third Infrastructure die to work on Blue Zone Residential Construction (which I gather means more commieblocks) or Blue Zone Duplex Row Housing (higher quality of life but less housing per die and more logistics strain)... but that would tend to clash with your plan to start work on the arcologies.
2b) Spend 5 Resources and upgrade the Microgeneration die on Heavy Industry to a sixth Blue Zone Power Production Campaigns die, increasing the chances of actually completing the project this turn from 71% to 92%. This would be very good, since it would give us a somewhat freer hand in deciding what to do with our Heavy Industry dice next turn.
2c) Spend 10 Resources to pay to shift two dice from the 10/die Personal Electric Appliances Factories to the 15/die Chemical Precursor Plants. We'd only have a 29% chance of completing CPP and no chance of completing PEAF this turn, as opposed to just a straight 60% chance on PEAF... but on the other hand, we could really use the capital goods
2d) Simply bank the 10 Resources, saving them for next turn, since I'm sure there will be places that we could use it to activate just... one... more... die..., or to apply one more die to an expensive project that would otherwise be left on a cheaper compromise project.
Anyway, that's me.
For me I view the RZ containment as being much more valuable than YZ containment right now given while the yellow zone can be pushed back and the land made usable again, pushing back the red zone just leaves barren land that isn't worth much of value. So every point the red zone advances decreases the usability of the Earth, and that sort of permanent damage should be neutralized where you can reasonably do so. You also have to remember the politics of it too as currently the vast majority of the population thinks the Earth is reclaimable and can be made whole again, so stopping the advancement where Tiberium is strongest should register with them.
The plan also generates us more resources which we can use next turn, furthers cooperation with the Forgotten, and means we can finish the BZ perimetre next turn with five dice with a very high chance of success.
The plan also generates us more resources which we can use next turn, furthers cooperation with the Forgotten, and means we can finish the BZ perimetre next turn with five dice with a very high chance of success.
- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
[X] Plan Mil, YZ and Research
Has the GM explicitly and clearly stated that our mitigation efforts are ultimately irrelevant and we're destined to fail, or what exactly do you base your claim on?
Also, if our mitigation ultimately doesn't matter, wouldn't it make more sense - not less - to focus our Tiberium dice on income instead of mitigation, so we can better use those funds to support space-evacuation efforts? The additional 10-15R we'd get from completing a RZ Containment phase would be enough to pay for a die in space probe projects by itself, while the bonus-abatement we'd get for completing the BZ fences would be, by your own logic, irrelevant.
Frankly, it feels like you're contradicting yourself.
If we had the resources to activates our dice in full without the resource-constraints we're currently suffering under, it's quite possible that we'd decide to build future MARVs in Yellow Zones of strategic importance, such as Europe (to protect the Saarland and its facilities), North America (to protect Chicago and its facilities), or Central/East Asia (to protect Kirichi, Colombo, or the connections to the Himalayan Blue Zone), just to name a few. And that's something we could quite possible do within this 4YP, not a hypothetical 30+ turns in the future.
Also, if there is no point in talking about hypotheticals from 30+ turns in the future, then why are you trying to use a hypothetical from 160+ turns in the future in order to justify your plan choices? Again, you seem to contradict yourself.
This alleviates my issues with it somewhat, though I still vehemently disagree that BZ fencing is something we should do now; instead it would be far better to spend the next couple of turns improving our income, and then complete BZ fencing in one go ~4 turns or so. Spending 3 dice on it now is ultimately just a pointless waste, as it accomplishes nothing, improving neither our income nor our mitigation.
Actually, yes.
And can you please provide proof of that?