Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Ok, I was going to put this off but I've been bullied into posting it now 
There's been a bunch of discussion of Armor, and I've been thinking a ton about it. I think I've worked out a decent framework for explaining the problems we've had with our defensive layers and armor - as well as why Shroud doesn't seem to work.
I call it the Narrative Theory of Defense.
Basically, each of our defensive arts, and indeed other layers of defense, are trying to sell a particular story:
This can take a range of forms. For example, LFWT and PLR theoretically work together quite well - the main problem we've had is that there's often just a feeling of redundancy rather than layering - dream dodges and shadow dodges feel interchangeable, a lot of which I think comes down to it feeling like we never actually get to use the chaos of PLR to lose people. That being said, trying to layer them does still the problem of just creating a whole lot of description to manage, so its understandable that things can get lost.
Perhaps the most serious issue here though is Shroud. It doesn't really synergise with anything well. Superficially, you might think "oh, it's darkness aesthetic so it can fit LFWT better!" but it's actually a completely different kind of darkness from LFWT. It is a very substantial shadow, in contrast with LFWT's insubstantial shadow. They're completely different transformations and don't really mesh at all. It also doesn't mesh with any basic armor stuff like our gown or Zhengui's shells. It can't reinforce their narratives by making the armor stronger - instead it overwrites them. Or, more accurately, Shroud just doesn't get any on screen effect with Yrs instead choosing to show our gown mitigating attacks or arrows bouncing off Zhengui's shell. It is also - and I think this is important - a relatively complex effect that demands a fair amount of description and attention. Which it can't get when it's competing with all our other defensive layers and isn't even our primary defense. Hell, I'm not sure it's even our secondary. It's more like our tertiary.
Aria/Echoes has a bunch of problems here too. The big one is of course its generally passive nature, which we've discussed before. It tends to just fade into the background after our initial entrance, and any sense of it mitigating damage is non-existent. In terms of selling its story, the ideal image is really what Jaromilla did in the Caldera fight imo - and it would probably be better if it was a stronger, active, stunt effect instead of a passive field. It synergises best with armor - the ice aura drains the power from attacks and they bounce off. It seems to have problems getting screen time in the context of our defensive layers however - finding room to go "ok, so you failed to dodge this attack so you're going to get hit and now I need to describe the attacks having their energy reduced by Echoes before they hit you and run into your armor" is probably a bit awkward. A reframing to have it enhancing dodging by having it slow attacks could also potentially be reasonable? Whether or not it synergises with Shroud is a bit more open. Attack has its energy drained -> bounces off armor is straightforward. Attack has its energy drained -> sinks into darkness without a trace is more complex. I think it still could work as a narrative, but you'd really want to be focusing on that stationary fortress narrative and image - you can't dilute it with dodging imo.
So yeah, those are my thoughts on how our defenses function. I think the framework is quite a good way of thinking about how things are or are not going to work together. Questions like "do these synergise in the narrative of a fight? are we trying to do too many things at once?" are important.
In terms of our armor development, this is also why I've become much more sceptical of whether or not Shroud actually works for us. Not Black Mirror - that has no problems as a shield we can use to block things we need to - but SNR's armor. I think it's a really good art, and a very potent effect - but I'm becoming convinced it's one that doesn't really synergise with the things in our build we hold as higher priority (LFWT, dodginess) and is an armor effect that really demands it be the primary defense, which isn't something we're going to do.
What we want for Armor I think is a secondary/tertiary defense that is simple, and doesn't demand too much attention while adequately supporting our other layers and providing a useful catch for when we fail to dodge. We also, I think, would ideally have something that provides meaningful strategic options for group defense play and support.
There's been a bunch of discussion of Armor, and I've been thinking a ton about it. I think I've worked out a decent framework for explaining the problems we've had with our defensive layers and armor - as well as why Shroud doesn't seem to work.
I call it the Narrative Theory of Defense.
Basically, each of our defensive arts, and indeed other layers of defense, are trying to sell a particular story:
- LFWT: I am a fleeting, insubstantial shadow, uncatchable and untouchable, scattering on the wind
- PLR: Losing the enemy in a chaotic and bewildering revelry as you dance away, what they thought they had caught was but an illusion
- Shroud: I am an endless pool of darkness, attacks vanishing into my body without a trace, my form unaffected
- Black Mirror: I block attacks with a shield of endless darkness that devours them as if they were never there
- Aria/Echoes: Attacks are frozen, their energy drained away from the cold, leaving them weak
- Basic armor/Gown/Zhengui shell etc.: I r tuff, attack bounce off me
This can take a range of forms. For example, LFWT and PLR theoretically work together quite well - the main problem we've had is that there's often just a feeling of redundancy rather than layering - dream dodges and shadow dodges feel interchangeable, a lot of which I think comes down to it feeling like we never actually get to use the chaos of PLR to lose people. That being said, trying to layer them does still the problem of just creating a whole lot of description to manage, so its understandable that things can get lost.
Perhaps the most serious issue here though is Shroud. It doesn't really synergise with anything well. Superficially, you might think "oh, it's darkness aesthetic so it can fit LFWT better!" but it's actually a completely different kind of darkness from LFWT. It is a very substantial shadow, in contrast with LFWT's insubstantial shadow. They're completely different transformations and don't really mesh at all. It also doesn't mesh with any basic armor stuff like our gown or Zhengui's shells. It can't reinforce their narratives by making the armor stronger - instead it overwrites them. Or, more accurately, Shroud just doesn't get any on screen effect with Yrs instead choosing to show our gown mitigating attacks or arrows bouncing off Zhengui's shell. It is also - and I think this is important - a relatively complex effect that demands a fair amount of description and attention. Which it can't get when it's competing with all our other defensive layers and isn't even our primary defense. Hell, I'm not sure it's even our secondary. It's more like our tertiary.
Aria/Echoes has a bunch of problems here too. The big one is of course its generally passive nature, which we've discussed before. It tends to just fade into the background after our initial entrance, and any sense of it mitigating damage is non-existent. In terms of selling its story, the ideal image is really what Jaromilla did in the Caldera fight imo - and it would probably be better if it was a stronger, active, stunt effect instead of a passive field. It synergises best with armor - the ice aura drains the power from attacks and they bounce off. It seems to have problems getting screen time in the context of our defensive layers however - finding room to go "ok, so you failed to dodge this attack so you're going to get hit and now I need to describe the attacks having their energy reduced by Echoes before they hit you and run into your armor" is probably a bit awkward. A reframing to have it enhancing dodging by having it slow attacks could also potentially be reasonable? Whether or not it synergises with Shroud is a bit more open. Attack has its energy drained -> bounces off armor is straightforward. Attack has its energy drained -> sinks into darkness without a trace is more complex. I think it still could work as a narrative, but you'd really want to be focusing on that stationary fortress narrative and image - you can't dilute it with dodging imo.
So yeah, those are my thoughts on how our defenses function. I think the framework is quite a good way of thinking about how things are or are not going to work together. Questions like "do these synergise in the narrative of a fight? are we trying to do too many things at once?" are important.
In terms of our armor development, this is also why I've become much more sceptical of whether or not Shroud actually works for us. Not Black Mirror - that has no problems as a shield we can use to block things we need to - but SNR's armor. I think it's a really good art, and a very potent effect - but I'm becoming convinced it's one that doesn't really synergise with the things in our build we hold as higher priority (LFWT, dodginess) and is an armor effect that really demands it be the primary defense, which isn't something we're going to do.
What we want for Armor I think is a secondary/tertiary defense that is simple, and doesn't demand too much attention while adequately supporting our other layers and providing a useful catch for when we fail to dodge. We also, I think, would ideally have something that provides meaningful strategic options for group defense play and support.
Last edited:
TimEd
Meteor maker
Eh, Ling Qi's defense concepts may not be absolute, but that is by design. Not her design, but reality and the flowery hints inherent in the arts she and I assume most everyone else practices.
Just imagine how generic and simplified statement of any art defense is otherwise.
Black Mirror: Attacks can be absorbed by a sheen of water-darkness. High potential*.
*Reaching said potential not guaranteed.
Obviously arts will go for a more flowery filler text in universe, because not only does it hint towards the future to someone too blind to grasp it's scope (like Ling Qi in chapter when reviewing her arts after breaking through), but flowery text also reinforces the concept it espouses without necessarily limiting it to a single path. Hence the arts modifications to fit better perosonally.
Like how these
Cultivator A: Black Mirror will shield me from all your attacks!
Cultivator B: Black Mirror will absorb all your attacks!
Can be defined to mean similar or wildly different things deoending on interpretation.
tldr; flowery arts text is a feature and not a bug in Ling Qi's culture. They need not be absolutely true, just technically correct without being misleading.
Just imagine how generic and simplified statement of any art defense is otherwise.
Black Mirror: Attacks can be absorbed by a sheen of water-darkness. High potential*.
*Reaching said potential not guaranteed.
Obviously arts will go for a more flowery filler text in universe, because not only does it hint towards the future to someone too blind to grasp it's scope (like Ling Qi in chapter when reviewing her arts after breaking through), but flowery text also reinforces the concept it espouses without necessarily limiting it to a single path. Hence the arts modifications to fit better perosonally.
Like how these
Cultivator A: Black Mirror will shield me from all your attacks!
Cultivator B: Black Mirror will absorb all your attacks!
Can be defined to mean similar or wildly different things deoending on interpretation.
tldr; flowery arts text is a feature and not a bug in Ling Qi's culture. They need not be absolutely true, just technically correct without being misleading.
Last edited:
Ok, I was going to put this off but I've been bullied into posting it now
There's been a bunch of discussion of Armor, and I've been thinking a ton about it. I think I've worked out a decent framework for explaining the problems we've had with our defensive layers and armor - as well as why Shroud doesn't seem to work.
I call it the Narrative Theory of Defense.
Basically, each of our defensive arts, and indeed other layers of defense, are trying to sell a particular story:
Now, the problem here is that a) every layer demands narrative attention - i.e. description - to function, but this is necessarily limited, and b) many of those narratives don't really synergise with each other.
- LFWT: I am a fleeting, insubstantial shadow, uncatchable and untouchable, scattering on the wind
- PLR: Losing the enemy in a chaotic and bewildering revelry as you dance away, what they thought they had caught was but an illusion
- Shroud: I am an endless pool of darkness, attacks vanishing into my body without a trace, my form unaffected
- Black Mirror: I block attacks with a shield of endless darkness that devours them as if they were never there
- Aria/Echoes: Attacks are frozen, their energy drained away from the cold, leaving them weak
- Basic armor/Gown/Zhengui shell etc.: I r tuff, attack bounce off me
This can take a range of forms. For example, LFWT and PLR theoretically work together quite well - the main problem we've had is that there's often just a feeling of redundancy rather than layering - dream dodges and shadow dodges feel interchangeable, a lot of which I think comes down to it feeling like we never actually get to use the chaos of PLR to lose people. That being said, trying to layer them does still the problem of just creating a whole lot of description to manage, so its understandable that things can get lost.
Perhaps the most serious issue here though is Shroud. It doesn't really synergise with anything well. Superficially, you might think "oh, it's darkness aesthetic so it can fit LFWT better!" but it's actually a completely different kind of darkness from LFWT. It is a very substantial shadow, in contrast with LFWT's insubstantial shadow. They're completely different transformations and don't really mesh at all. It also doesn't mesh with any basic armor stuff like our gown or Zhengui's shells. It can't reinforce their narratives by making the armor stronger - instead it overwrites them. Or, more accurately, Shroud just doesn't get any on screen effect with Yrs instead choosing to show our gown mitigating attacks or arrows bouncing off Zhengui's shell. It is also - and I think this is important - a relatively complex effect that demands a fair amount of description and attention. Which it can't get when it's competing with all our other defensive layers and isn't even our primary defense. Hell, I'm not sure it's even our secondary. It's more like our tertiary.
Aria/Echoes has a bunch of problems here too. The big one is of course its generally passive nature, which we've discussed before. It tends to just fade into the background after our initial entrance, and any sense of it mitigating damage is non-existent. In terms of selling its story, the ideal image is really what Jaromilla did in the Caldera fight imo - and it would probably be better if it was a stronger, active, stunt effect instead of a passive field. It synergises best with armor - the ice aura drains the power from attacks and they bounce off. It seems to have problems getting screen time in the context of our defensive layers however - finding room to go "ok, so you failed to dodge this attack so you're going to get hit and now I need to describe the attacks having their energy reduced by Echoes before they hit you and run into your armor" is probably a bit awkward. A reframing to have it enhancing dodging by having it slow attacks could also potentially be reasonable? Whether or not it synergises with Shroud is a bit more open. Attack has its energy drained -> bounces off armor is straightforward. Attack has its energy drained -> sinks into darkness without a trace is more complex. I think it still could work as a narrative, but you'd really want to be focusing on that stationary fortress narrative and image - you can't dilute it with dodging imo.
So yeah, those are my thoughts on how our defenses function. I think the framework is quite a good way of thinking about how things are or are not going to work together. Questions like "do these synergise in the narrative of a fight? are we trying to do too many things at once?" are important.
In terms of our armor development, this is also why I've become much more sceptical of whether or not Shroud actually works for us. Not Black Mirror - that has no problems as a shield we can use to block things we need to - but SNR's armor. I think it's a really good art, and a very potent effect - but I'm becoming convinced it's one that doesn't really synergise with the things in our build we hold as higher priority (LFWT, dodginess) and is an armor effect that really demands it be the primary defense, which isn't something we're going to do.
What we want for Armor I think is a secondary/tertiary defense that is simple, and doesn't demand too much attention while adequately supporting our other layers and providing a useful catch for when we fail to dodge. We also, I think, would ideally have something that provides meaningful strategic options for group defense play and support.
Maybe a way of using shroud could be to deliberately not dodge an attack to get into a better position or land an attack of our own. Like we did when we deliberately got hit with that assassins knife, though encouraging this kind of behaviour might not be a good idea. It could just focus on blocking attacks against our allies.
I also think Aria/Echoes could synergise with Black Mirror. Attacks are drained of their energy which could make it easier for black mirror to pull them in and devour them.
Yes, but until we make all of our arts, many arts we will use won't fit us fully. We will address this through modifying or creating a successor
Replacing stillness with implacability, and void with dream, might give us what we need
Last edited:
Ok, so first I'm going to again note that Shroud (the armor) and Black MIrror (the shield) function very differently in practice, and should not be conflated. I feel this is important.
But, yeah, as I said, I do think it's possible to layer cold field defense over Shroud and show them both working together well. However, I also think that basically requires you to be running a tank defense narrative like Gan or Xuan Shi.
And yeah, I also think that SNR generally works much better when used for blocking attacks, and using it to shield allies can work quite well. Using it to buff allies, however, I think has been demonstrated to be problematic. Like, we can see this in the Caldera fight - Ling Qi "used" Shroud, and it was very dramatic... but it didn't actually have any visible effect? The next beat was Zhengui showing his toughness by attacks bouncing off his shell - that's the exact opposite of how SNR works! One could just say that's a minor detail to be fixed in editing, but I think it's actually getting at a serious underlying difficulty with the art as a buff in that its narrative is basically counter to standard armor narratives, such as present in our Gown or Zhengui or most of our allies. Basically, it doesn't reinforce or enhance them at all - instead it replaces them. Or, indeed, just doesn't show up at all. It makes it problematic as a buff imo.
Again, shielding? Works great, shows off SNR well, and as a discrete stunt is easy to just plop in where it would be an appropriate move.
Focusing back on us then for a moment, the basic problem of our layered defense is that firstly there is way too many layers to actually describe - for something to hurt us we first need to fail to be caught through IPF (which we are all the time, making it feel non-existent), fail to dodge, and then the attack has to go through Shroud and our Gown, while being mitigated by Aria/Echoes... This is clearly way too much to describe in a reasonably paced fight, and so things get dropped. And that's especially the case because some of those layers are kind of mutually exclusive descriptionwise.
Taking LFWT as our primary defense, and looking at how Shroud fits in, there are a range of scenarios:
- We're caught solid
- We're caught partially transformed, i.e. dodge fail
- We're caught by a perfect hit in full ghost mode
Edit: also (1.5) Glancing blows. Not sure how they work with Shroud? Like, the whole point of it is that things just fall into the lake and vanish - glancing hits are sort of irrelevant to that... Another way it possibly doesn't really integrate with dodginess that well?
That's kind of the operative question, yeah. Like, what is our long term vision and goal? If an art isn't working for us, is it just a small adjustment to make it meet our goal, or is it actually going off in the wrong direction, and we should perhaps go and look at things that would better facilitate our long term goals?
Last edited:
- Location
- Earth
[X] Reflecting on the lessons learned with Ice Ladies
-[X] The Laughing Wind: Flight is freedom, defiance of one of the First Laws. Feel the wind on your face,witness all the earth below, and laugh in the midst of the clear blue sky. Advance Sable Grace by 1. Advance Motion and Freedom projects by one. Unlocks Two Projects. (6/3) (1 + 2 (Yin) + 2 (Wind) + 1 (Darkness))
-- Assigned Bonuses: None
-[X] Soul of Ice: Blizzard and glacier, fine snow and driving sleet. cruel wind and soft snow. Stasis, Inevitability, Endings and Renewal. There is more to ice, more to winter than meets the casual eye. Is your own understanding too narrow? Advances Isolation and Want Projects. Advances Winter's Heart by 1. Begins Trait Quest Chain. (10/5) (1 + 2 (Yin) + 1(Cold) + 2 (Music) + 2 (Expression) + 1 (Argent Domain) + 1 (Greater Argent Vent))
-- Assigned Bonuses: Argent Domain, Greater Argent Vent
-[X] Grinning: It is the seeking that brings joy, the journey and the acquisition. Delve into the deeper mystery of the Grinning Moon, seek, adventure, explore to integrate its lessons. Advances the Freedom, Motion, and Isolation projects one step on completion. 30 XP to physical cultivation. (7/3) (1 + 3 (Moon) + 2 (Yin) + 2 (Expression))
-- Assigned Bonuses: None
This plan goes all in on motion and grinning moon allowing us to level 3 concepts, including getting our first concept to IV (Isolation). It also gets Sable Grace closer to cyan, and levels up our Zeqing trait to 3 which will almost certainly be useful for Ice lady diplomacy (which takes place in 5 turns time so we do need to be working towards this). Also unlocks two more projects for LFWT and opens a Trait quest chain.
Narratively I would present this as Ling Qi internalising the lessons learned on the trip to the land of Ice Ladies now that she has reconnected with everyone in the sect.
TLDR - Benefits:
Motion II -> III (0/3) -> (1/5)
Freedom I -> II (0/2) -> (2/3)
Isolation III -> IV (2/5) -> (1/?8) (I presume that Yrs is using Fibonacci numbers for the project levels)
Want II (2/3)
Sable Grace Green 8 -> Green 9 (12)
Winter's Heart Green 2 -> Green 3
-[X] The Laughing Wind: Flight is freedom, defiance of one of the First Laws. Feel the wind on your face,witness all the earth below, and laugh in the midst of the clear blue sky. Advance Sable Grace by 1. Advance Motion and Freedom projects by one. Unlocks Two Projects. (6/3) (1 + 2 (Yin) + 2 (Wind) + 1 (Darkness))
-- Assigned Bonuses: None
-[X] Soul of Ice: Blizzard and glacier, fine snow and driving sleet. cruel wind and soft snow. Stasis, Inevitability, Endings and Renewal. There is more to ice, more to winter than meets the casual eye. Is your own understanding too narrow? Advances Isolation and Want Projects. Advances Winter's Heart by 1. Begins Trait Quest Chain. (10/5) (1 + 2 (Yin) + 1(Cold) + 2 (Music) + 2 (Expression) + 1 (Argent Domain) + 1 (Greater Argent Vent))
-- Assigned Bonuses: Argent Domain, Greater Argent Vent
-[X] Grinning: It is the seeking that brings joy, the journey and the acquisition. Delve into the deeper mystery of the Grinning Moon, seek, adventure, explore to integrate its lessons. Advances the Freedom, Motion, and Isolation projects one step on completion. 30 XP to physical cultivation. (7/3) (1 + 3 (Moon) + 2 (Yin) + 2 (Expression))
-- Assigned Bonuses: None
This plan goes all in on motion and grinning moon allowing us to level 3 concepts, including getting our first concept to IV (Isolation). It also gets Sable Grace closer to cyan, and levels up our Zeqing trait to 3 which will almost certainly be useful for Ice lady diplomacy (which takes place in 5 turns time so we do need to be working towards this). Also unlocks two more projects for LFWT and opens a Trait quest chain.
Narratively I would present this as Ling Qi internalising the lessons learned on the trip to the land of Ice Ladies now that she has reconnected with everyone in the sect.
TLDR - Benefits:
Motion II -> III (0/3) -> (1/5)
Freedom I -> II (0/2) -> (2/3)
Isolation III -> IV (2/5) -> (1/?8) (I presume that Yrs is using Fibonacci numbers for the project levels)
Want II (2/3)
Sable Grace Green 8 -> Green 9 (12)
Winter's Heart Green 2 -> Green 3
Last edited:
SNR is kinda Liminal. The attacks disappear without a trace into something that isn't there. If Ling Qi can unite it with PLR the narrative could work. Dancers' black velvet gowns cover and disperse attack into nothingness or Dream vistas. The revelers spill their dark wine over the area attacks jeering all the while, snuffing them out.
Last edited:
Thinking about it, maybe something more like Zhengui's approach to armor would work? Not his armored shell, but the way he ablates incoming damage through sheer vitality and recovery.
This doesn't conflict with our dodginess, us actually taking a hit that causes an injury kind of baked-in nods towards our dodginess, and it's not an approach that requires us to deliberately stand around. Arguably, actually taking a bit of hurt in the fluff adds prominence to the value of our dodging, even.
Thematically, I think it potentially has decent tie in to Ling Qi's drive to keep going and her persistence in the face of hardship. Injuries are temporary setbacks that she surpasses, but at the same time it grounds her as someone capable of experiencing setbacks. Narratively, I like that. Philosophically, it also makes sense for Ling Qi as a character if you basically view it as her leaning into a Truth of the world's dangers while simultaneously defying it. It'd be a bit of a microcosm of one slice of her worldview.
Mechanically, it's within spitting distance of what Unbroken Will, our primary armor trait, already does. It just adds a recovery element/aesthetic to it. And obviously in terms of inspiration, Zhengui's just sitting there ready to tap, if we can figure out a route to do so.
The main drawback there is how to apply the concept to team defence in a way that doesn't feel like straight OP healing immortality. Probably hook it onto our Domain mists, somehow? It's pretty good in relation to primal empathy responses and the like.
Yeah, modding Dream into our arts could *potentially* help. The meme plan of "make everything Dream" was only 50% a joke - it actually works quite well for most of our Arts
I think though that any plan would have to involve adjusting both SNR and LFWT though honestly. Like, our body being a portal into the endless Dream or something still has the same "substance mismatch" problems as SNR if LFWT continues trying to be so uhhh insubstantial?
Maybe the PLR/EDD stuff could work? Like, if we move our "dodge" style away from "being insubstantial" to "quantum dream bullshit" "being everywhere yet nowhere" (which actually works with Sable Grace) then maybe they could mesh together better? Dunno...
Making Laughing Flight of the Dream Thief was something I wanted to do anyway I guess
Yeah, that's perhaps the simplest thing, and, well, Unbroken Will and bits of TRF do actually provide us with the groundwork for that arguably. Heck, we have three examples of regen in TRF, Zhengui, and WHR to draw on!
.... is this where I post my meme Art concept?
Raising Heart
Dream, Yang
Keywords: Courage, enduring, community
Anti: isolation, fear, despair
Art gets stronger the more friends Ling Qi has. Don't fight your friends, it won't work well
Techs:
I can't give up, not while my friends are counting on me!
Upkeep
Personal armor. Glue TRU and TRD together and power it with dreams. Unbroken Will + endless stamina and DETERMINATION
Together, we can defeat them!
Scene
Extend above buff to allies
I won't let you hurt my friends!
Stunt
LQ conjures a clone who dives in front of an ally to shield them
I have to defeat you! For the sake of everyone's dreams!
Stunt, Empowerment
Draw upon everyone's support through the Dream to dramatically enhance the chosen technique.
Dream, Yang
Keywords: Courage, enduring, community
Anti: isolation, fear, despair
Art gets stronger the more friends Ling Qi has. Don't fight your friends, it won't work well
Techs:
I can't give up, not while my friends are counting on me!
Upkeep
Personal armor. Glue TRU and TRD together and power it with dreams. Unbroken Will + endless stamina and DETERMINATION
Together, we can defeat them!
Scene
Extend above buff to allies
I won't let you hurt my friends!
Stunt
LQ conjures a clone who dives in front of an ally to shield them
I have to defeat you! For the sake of everyone's dreams!
Stunt, Empowerment
Draw upon everyone's support through the Dream to dramatically enhance the chosen technique.
Last edited:
Here's where I'm NO FUN ALLOWED!
Dream's needlessly complicating things. If we have a fitting inspiration source, just take on their methodologies to the extent that it's feasible. Going full means-shifting on it muddies the narrative of its acquisition, probably impossibly.
Stronger armor the more people are involved is a balance nightmare and also of questionable utility given traditional issues with feasibility in and outside of ally-rich environments. Core competencies like defence should probably not be tied to niche-specialist arts.
We already know "dramatically enhance the chosen technique" effects are iffy, and I don't really want to get more of them. Especially not as an afterthought on a defensive art. Too vague; better to approach things like Zephyr's encircling winds.
Dream's needlessly complicating things. If we have a fitting inspiration source, just take on their methodologies to the extent that it's feasible. Going full means-shifting on it muddies the narrative of its acquisition, probably impossibly.
Stronger armor the more people are involved is a balance nightmare and also of questionable utility given traditional issues with feasibility in and outside of ally-rich environments. Core competencies like defence should probably not be tied to niche-specialist arts.
We already know "dramatically enhance the chosen technique" effects are iffy, and I don't really want to get more of them. Especially not as an afterthought on a defensive art. Too vague; better to approach things like Zephyr's encircling winds.
No no no. We don't need them nearby. Our friends are *always* with us - that's the point of drawing on them through Dream!
But yeah, I do think there would be a lot of issues with that in practice, and I wouldn't want it as written really.
The big problem with potential regen/unbroken will art ideas is that I feel it naturally lends itself towards more passive effects, which is good for a personal armor as a secondary defensive layer to dodging, but is bad for active defensive support play.
- Pronouns
- He
[X] Plan Dreams of Power
- Location
- New York
[X] Plan All in on Grinning
[X] Plan Move It Move It
[X] Plan Full Dreamwalking
[X] Plan Full Moon
[X] Plan Move It Move It
[X] Plan Full Dreamwalking
[X] Plan Full Moon
I think there was already a few good ideas. If we could turn it into a dream based art, by changing the keywords, it might work
- Location
- Dreamland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[x] Plan Dreams of Power
I don't see why Shroud doesn't work with intangibility. Ling Qi turns into shadow and fades into the Liminal but qi can still hit intangible things. Our shadows have been connected to Vanishing (The art of dispersal, of scattering, rendering oneself into no more than dust on the wind, the shadow of leaves on the forest floor.) but that skill still leaves us physically present if more like a cloud of particles than a solid form, so when enemies hit that cloud that is us hiding in the wind and shadow, hitting that something only partially faded into Dream, what they hit is a dress harder than steel covered in dark liquid. It doesn't really need to be flashier or more sensical than that. And if it's still a bit wonky we're heading in the direction of not having a body at all and rather just being literal, physical mist where "hitting" us is more like carving fog that's somehow still tough.Ok, I was going to put this off but I've been bullied into posting it now
There's been a bunch of discussion of Armor, and I've been thinking a ton about it. I think I've worked out a decent framework for explaining the problems we've had with our defensive layers and armor - as well as why Shroud doesn't seem to work.
I call it the Narrative Theory of Defense.
Basically, each of our defensive arts, and indeed other layers of defense, are trying to sell a particular story:
Now, the problem here is that a) every layer demands narrative attention - i.e. description - to function, but this is necessarily limited, and b) many of those narratives don't really synergise with each other.
- LFWT: I am a fleeting, insubstantial shadow, uncatchable and untouchable, scattering on the wind
- PLR: Losing the enemy in a chaotic and bewildering revelry as you dance away, what they thought they had caught was but an illusion
- Shroud: I am an endless pool of darkness, attacks vanishing into my body without a trace, my form unaffected
- Black Mirror: I block attacks with a shield of endless darkness that devours them as if they were never there
- Aria/Echoes: Attacks are frozen, their energy drained away from the cold, leaving them weak
- Basic armor/Gown/Zhengui shell etc.: I r tuff, attack bounce off me
This can take a range of forms. For example, LFWT and PLR theoretically work together quite well - the main problem we've had is that there's often just a feeling of redundancy rather than layering - dream dodges and shadow dodges feel interchangeable, a lot of which I think comes down to it feeling like we never actually get to use the chaos of PLR to lose people. That being said, trying to layer them does still the problem of just creating a whole lot of description to manage, so its understandable that things can get lost.
Perhaps the most serious issue here though is Shroud. It doesn't really synergise with anything well. Superficially, you might think "oh, it's darkness aesthetic so it can fit LFWT better!" but it's actually a completely different kind of darkness from LFWT. It is a very substantial shadow, in contrast with LFWT's insubstantial shadow. They're completely different transformations and don't really mesh at all. It also doesn't mesh with any basic armor stuff like our gown or Zhengui's shells. It can't reinforce their narratives by making the armor stronger - instead it overwrites them. Or, more accurately, Shroud just doesn't get any on screen effect with Yrs instead choosing to show our gown mitigating attacks or arrows bouncing off Zhengui's shell. It is also - and I think this is important - a relatively complex effect that demands a fair amount of description and attention. Which it can't get when it's competing with all our other defensive layers and isn't even our primary defense. Hell, I'm not sure it's even our secondary. It's more like our tertiary.
Aria/Echoes has a bunch of problems here too. The big one is of course its generally passive nature, which we've discussed before. It tends to just fade into the background after our initial entrance, and any sense of it mitigating damage is non-existent. In terms of selling its story, the ideal image is really what Jaromilla did in the Caldera fight imo - and it would probably be better if it was a stronger, active, stunt effect instead of a passive field. It synergises best with armor - the ice aura drains the power from attacks and they bounce off. It seems to have problems getting screen time in the context of our defensive layers however - finding room to go "ok, so you failed to dodge this attack so you're going to get hit and now I need to describe the attacks having their energy reduced by Echoes before they hit you and run into your armor" is probably a bit awkward. A reframing to have it enhancing dodging by having it slow attacks could also potentially be reasonable? Whether or not it synergises with Shroud is a bit more open. Attack has its energy drained -> bounces off armor is straightforward. Attack has its energy drained -> sinks into darkness without a trace is more complex. I think it still could work as a narrative, but you'd really want to be focusing on that stationary fortress narrative and image - you can't dilute it with dodging imo.
So yeah, those are my thoughts on how our defenses function. I think the framework is quite a good way of thinking about how things are or are not going to work together. Questions like "do these synergise in the narrative of a fight? are we trying to do too many things at once?" are important.
In terms of our armor development, this is also why I've become much more sceptical of whether or not Shroud actually works for us. Not Black Mirror - that has no problems as a shield we can use to block things we need to - but SNR's armor. I think it's a really good art, and a very potent effect - but I'm becoming convinced it's one that doesn't really synergise with the things in our build we hold as higher priority (LFWT, dodginess) and is an armor effect that really demands it be the primary defense, which isn't something we're going to do.
What we want for Armor I think is a secondary/tertiary defense that is simple, and doesn't demand too much attention while adequately supporting our other layers and providing a useful catch for when we fail to dodge. We also, I think, would ideally have something that provides meaningful strategic options for group defense play and support.
Aria going into FSS+ could probably be broken up into a passive effect for the passive Qi Drain with a new Counter/Dispel/Drain Tech that eats weaker enemy attacks. We keep the idea that enemies get drained by our mere presence and can then turn active attention to draining lightning bolts before they hit us and devouring enemy effects. As a bonus narrative tool, after having successfully drained a few techs, if draining a new tech doesn't work it ups the stakes by showing it's a powerful attack.
[x] Plan Dreams of Power
I have to say I really like this turn vote. I'm excited for all of these options, narrative presence large and small.