[X] Cut them loose. (+.5 Income from integration, -5 Prestige, Western Wall angry in future, Rus pleased)
[X] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
 
Let us speak of an ancient tale, the story of the Star Axe and the Thunder Horse.
In the most ancient times, when the people of the steppe remembered still the old histories of the Demoness Gwygo, and the world was rich with magic not yet ignored into never having existed, a Star fell to the earth. The leader of the great tribe of people known as the Thunder Horse found this fallen Star and from its magical metal had forged a mighty Axe. One of a kind, was this Star Axe, and so the leader wished it blessed by the greatest workers of magic he knew of. Two southern Peoples did he know, whose magics would be worthy of his weapon: the Spirit Talkers, ancient beyond knowing, who ruled the spirits of their holy caves; and the Hill People, numerous beyond counting, who shaped the spirits of soil and stalk.

Cunning as he was, the leader of the Thunder Horse, he had hoped to pit one against the other, and so gain the greatest blessing. Only one People answered his call, however, and so the honor befell those of the Hills. Though their magics were not as suited to the blessing of a great weapon, their mastery was without question, and so the Star Axe was completed. In return, the Thunder Horse offered the Hill People a boon. In the end, they asked only for safety as they gave the Thunder Horse another gift: safe passage to the the Lowlands through their Hills.

It is said the Thunder Horse's leader bellowed a hearty laugh as, cunning as he was, he well understood the Hill People scheme to set him upon their enemies. Still, he accepted, and his own numerous kin washed through the Hill Peoples towns - that offered them all they could eat from their endless harvest - into the Lowlands, not touching a hair on their benefactors' heads.

As the Hill People had expected, and to the Thunder Horse's delight, none among the rivers knew of horses and war wagons. For a time, the Thunder Horse ran down any who would stand in their way, as well as those who didn't. But this time proved much shorter than anyone expected. Disaster struck the People of the Horse. Despite his great war wagon - almost as great a wonder as his Axe - their leader was slain, the Star Axe was lost and his People were divided amongst his heirs.

Let us now speak of the Curse, the Doom of Thunder Horse, and of all those who would wield the Star Axe in anger. Some whisper that the Hill People, descended from the ancient Demoness, despised those of the steppe and meant to bring about their demise. Others explain that it was simply because their magics rebelled against the destructive use they were put to. Still, all who held the Axe, so it is said, would suffer.

Its first wielder had already suffered defeat where he should have been victorious.
Now, the land itself held it, and the Star Plague came to infest all who lived upon it.

The heirs of Thunder Horse searched in vain for the Axe, for all would accept them as their leader if they held it. They did not find it. The Spirit Talkers did. Immediately they sought to control the Thunder Horse as they did their cave-dwelling spirits, and called a young heir to them. Wise to the Spirit Talkers' controlling magics, the young heir called to the Hill People for protection. And as for his ancestor, the Hill People responded.

This time the Hill People sent their very wisest: Blessed Bynwyn, Priest-King of the Hills.
O, Bynwyn, Greatest Priest of the Hill People, Bringer of Health, Vanquisher of the Star Plague, Tender of the Sacred Herd, Creator of the Sacred Warding that protects his People from disease forever more.

King Bynwyn fought the Spirit Talkers' spells of domination and though his magic, of life and health, could not vanquish them, neither could the Spirit Talkers ensnare the Thunder Horse. Enraged, the young heir broke through the Spirit Talkers spirit-infused warriors and slaughtered them to a man. As the Curse claimed another victim, the Spirit Talkers' cave was ravaged and sealed, the Star Axe returned to its true owners, and Blessed Bynwyn barely escaped with his life.

Here ends the part of the tale of the Star Axe that any could recount.

(This is what I remember of the Star Axe from PoC, written in a quasi-ancient legend style and including some thread speculation/memes. There's probably things I got wrong, but it's been a long time since I read that part of PoC, and I didn't look it up. Why didn't I look it up? Because I thought would be more fun this way :p
Anyway, my theory on what happened after is that it became part of the Thunder Horse king's regalia and so moved to Xoh when they became the capital, only to then be destroyed along with all their treasure when Phygriff burned down their inner city.)
 
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[X] Cut them loose. (+.5 Income from integration, -5 Prestige, Western Wall angry in future, Rus pleased)
[X] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
 
[X] Integrate them as Rus Province with their own governor (+2 Income from integration, Western Wall ??? in future, Rus ???)
[X] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
 
[X] Cut them loose. (+.5 Income from integration, -5 Prestige, Western Wall angry in future, Rus pleased)
[X] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
 
[X] Integrate them as Rus Province with their own governor (+2 Income from integration, Western Wall ??? in future, Rus ???)
[X] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
 
[X] Cut them loose. (+.5 Income from integration, -5 Prestige, Western Wall angry in future, Rus pleased)
[X] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)

I can't imagine they won't rebel anyway even if we make them a province. They'd still be WWs neighbors and they made damn awful first impression.
 
[X] Integrate them as Rus Province with their own governor (+2 Income from integration, Western Wall ??? in future, Rus ???)
[X] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
 
[X] Integrate them as Rus Province with their own governor (+2 Income from integration, Western Wall ??? in future, Rus ???)
[X] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
 
Let's not kid ourselves. We are still a highly oligarchic society with strong elitist sympathies that are not going away anytime soon, with running themes of centralization and service to the state. We are stewing in all of the elements of fascisms. We just get to control the king so they never coalesce into the ultimate position of power.

No. The conditions for fascism are flatly not there. Absent mass media, nationalism, modern communications, and an atomized society such that many feel alienated from their traditions and communities, fascism is flatly not possible.

That said, yes, the Melkut Ymaryn has been a not fun place to live in since DGE, or even Arete. Social stratification leads to all sorts of problems. It's just that the Ymaryn spec'd hard into stability and sustainability during the stone age and continue to be reaping the benefits from those early choices.
 
[X] Cut them loose. (+.5 Income from integration, -5 Prestige, Western Wall angry in future, Rus pleased)
[X] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
 
Could that line of thought not be used for all peoples not our own? "The lives of the barbarians would be improved by our governance, so our conquest of them is justified?" I think not.

The only thing we know for sure is that the people of Rus, the people living there, wish to have autonomy. Thinking that we know better than they do or that we need to corral them for their own good is imo the height of hubris and I can't support it.
The difference is those people are in our care now, like how it happened or not. Those ethnic not!Ukrainian settlers have mostly never been Ymaryn citizens either. Many were born in the conquered territories or grew to adulthood there. We're all voting to move them onto Ymaryn territory and make them citizens. If we are not going to claim the conquered territories then by what right do take from them or give to them that doesn't also apply to the Rus living there? The cut loose option certainly doesn't say that everyone capable of speech is being given the option of citizenship and resettlement on equivalent land elsewhere in the kingdom. (nowhere near the Stallionlands).

It's all very well saying the Rus want to leave but all they've seen of us is one year of transitional government. They've not had a chance to learn if we're better than WW in peacetime. They've not had a chance to experience any benefits to weigh against the relief of seeing the back of people who sound like their erstwhile oppressors. Is it a fair choice at this time?
 
The difference is those people are in our care now, like how it happened or not. Those ethnic not!Ukrainian settlers have mostly never been Ymaryn citizens either. Many were born in the conquered territories or grew to adulthood there. We're all voting to move them onto Ymaryn territory and make them citizens. If we are not going to claim the conquered territories then by what right do take from them or give to them that doesn't also apply to the Rus living there? The cut loose option certainly doesn't say that everyone capable of speech is being given the option of citizenship and resettlement on equivalent land elsewhere in the kingdom. (nowhere near the Stallionlands).

It's all very well saying the Rus want to leave but all they've seen of us is one year of transitional government. They've not had a chance to learn if we're better than WW in peacetime. They've not had a chance to experience any benefits to weigh against the relief of seeing the back of people who sound like their erstwhile oppressors. Is it a fair choice at this time?
No? They were in the "care" of Western Wall, who for all intents and purposes treated them like garbage and drove them off the land in order to replace them with Ymaryn settlers.

Like, the whole thing with settler colonialism (aka what Western Wall has been doing) is to drive off or kill the natives of the lands in order to replace them with your own people to take advantage of the now "free" land. What made you think that the settlers were from not!Ukraine instead of from Ymaryn remnants within Western Wall?

Yes, I am going to take them at their word that they want to go back to autonomy. The fact that the people of Rus could be coerced into accepting Ymaryn rule doesn't undermine the very real desire they currently have to not be ruled by us. If we're talking about fair choices, then the fair choice would be for them to willingly petition themselves to be ruled by us, as a free peoples, after deliberation and the ability to weigh in the benefits and negatives. Rolling in with an army and declaring that we are the new boss is the exact opposite of a fair choice, and I feel like you know that.
 
No. The conditions for fascism are flatly not there. Absent mass media, nationalism, modern communications, and an atomized society such that many feel alienated from their traditions and communities, fascism is flatly not possible.

That said, yes, the Melkut Ymaryn has been a not fun place to live in since DGE, or even Arete. Social stratification leads to all sorts of problems. It's just that the Ymaryn spec'd hard into stability and sustainability during the stone age and continue to be reaping the benefits from those early choices.
We just REEEED hard about returning all of national Ymar to Ymar, and it effected everyone from the nobility to the commoners, otherwise we would not have been able to deal with the negatives of mass mobilization without internal strife.

We have at least a proto form of nationalism. The idea of Ymar as a thing unto itself that is worthy of support and loyalty exists.

I think if we had leaned into Revanchism rather than away from it we could have cultivated a form of proto-fascism and used it to empower the King greatly to acquire whatever Lebensraum he wanted right up until the wheels came off the bus and the whole thing crashed under the economic strain of conquest. It would have been potentially not entirely unlike the trajectory of Nazi Germany.

This may not be what you planned, nor would it have been at all wise, but it would have made the king very powerful in the short term, and kings don't live to see the long term.

But again, we get to control the king and so he isn't sorely tempted to just take every +influence action offered for no other reason than empowering his own influence.
 
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It's all very well saying the Rus want to leave but all they've seen of us is one year of transitional government. They've not had a chance to learn if we're better than WW in peacetime. They've not had a chance to experience any benefits to weigh against the relief of seeing the back of people who sound like their erstwhile oppressors. Is it a fair choice at this time?

Imposing our government on them without even running a referendum doesn't really strike me as a fair choice, regardless of how beneficial it would be for them to live under our rule.
 
We just REEEED hard about returning all of national Ymar to Ymar, and it effected everyone from the nobility to the commoners, otherwise we would not have been able to deal with the negatives of mass mobilization without internal strife.

We have at least a proto form of nationalism. The idea of Ymar as a thing unto itself that is worthy of support and loyalty exists.

I think if we had leaned into Revanchism rather than away from it we could have cultivated a form of proto-fascism and used it to empower the King greatly to acquire whatever Lebensraum he wanted right up until the wheels came off the bus and the whole thing crashed under the economic strain of conquest. It would have been potentially not entirely unlike the trajectory of Nazi Germany.

This may not be what you planned, nor would it have been at all wise, but it would have made the king very powerful in the short term, and kings don't live to see the long term.

But again, we get to control the king and so he isn't sorely tempted to just take every +influence action offered for no other reason than empowering his own influence.

Oh, certainly you could have gone full imperialist. But expansionist authoritarian nationalism isn't the same thing as fascism, fascism is an expansionist authoritarian nationalism but not all expansionist authoritarian nationalisms are fascism. Present Day China isn't fascist.

That said, if the Melkut Ymaryn actually decided to go full imperialism they could probably make an absolutely massive empire before falling apart.
 
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I am sympathetic to the argument about lives lost. However, I am more concerned about bad behavior and incentive if we decided to make WW's conquest our owns. If we want to annex Ukraine, then we better put works in to convince the locals the benefit of that.
 
Imposing our government on them without even running a referendum doesn't really strike me as a fair choice, regardless of how beneficial it would be for them to live under our rule.
In practice, running a referendum without extending Ymaryn bureaucratic organization to keep track of people across the territory in question is literally impossible, if they tried people would just end up 'voting' whatever the local tribe leader said they should vote and there'd be no way to know otherwise, or for that matter to know how many voters are supposed to exist. So pretending fairness is in the cards here is a bit pointless.

But that is really just another reason to get rid of them, we don't need another urgent catch-up project right now, just integrating our existing lands more tightly will require several infrastructure megaprojects. If we really want a bunch of Rus lands we can just prop up Amber Road, let them do the hard work of organizing this crap, and try to diplomatically annex once it is done.

[X] Cut them loose. (+.5 Income from integration, -5 Prestige, Western Wall angry in future, Rus pleased)
[X] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
 
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That said, if the Melkut Ymaryn actually decided to go full imperialism they could probably make an absolutely massive empire before falling apart.

Very much this.
I think we are currently at the limit of sustainable rule - we need to do two Megaprojects just to properly rule over Thunder Plateau and serious resistance to our rule in not!Ukraine would be hard to correct peacefully, one of the reasons I vote to cut them loose.

Tin Tribes and Not!Ukraine are the only areas we could integrate peacefully, with Amber Road to keep friendly in order to take a closer look at a full alliance hundred+ years down the line.
 
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Math first to help with the logistics. Then we do trial projects before megaprojects.

Seriously, 20 years is bit eww for a quest that runs on yearly turns. Anything that helps reduce time to completion would be great.
 
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Math first to help with the logistics. Then we do trial projects before megaprojects.

Oh, of course.
I was just saying that we need them, not that we do them immediately and recklessly.

This is a thing I really like about Ymaryn quest and that is similar to the Rhunrikki Strollar quest - you stop thinking about the next five or even twenty years.
The plans are always going so much further - thinking in centuries.

For this reason I loved that we exported Sacred Warding to the Amber Road while fighting a biggest war since the Khan and having our economy on fire - it was such an Ymaryn thing to do! An example of truly long term planning.
 
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Seriously, 20 years is bit eww for a quest that runs on yearly turns. Anything that helps reduce time to completion would be great.

I actually hope that we get longer turns after the current crisis is mastered.
Like we changed from shorter multiple updares per year to yearly ones after the immediate danger of collapse passed, changing to five year turns or even ten year turns would be nice, I think.
 
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I actually hope that we get longer turns after the current crisis is mastered.
Like we changed from shorter turns to yearly ones after the immediate danger of collapse passed, changing to five year turns or even ten year turns would be nice, I think.
I feel like we should be right at the cusp of a sea change in the rules. I personally hope now that the unification crisis is over we will get access to research and development.
 
[X] Cut them loose. (+.5 Income from integration, -5 Prestige, Western Wall angry in future, Rus pleased)
[X] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)

Legitimizing conquest is unacceptable, point blank. If the Rus want to join us, they can petition to be annexed just like Freehills did so long ago.

We are elitists right now, but we don't have to be forever. If we want to stop, we need start rejecting the idea that we are in the right for making decisions for other people.
 
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