Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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I mean, they're already moving aggressively to get her to take on count retainers. What else would you call this proposition. Better to pick a few and gain some allies than to piss them all off by refusing any count retainers.
No they aren't. This is barely a try compared to what will happen once one of the clans succeeds and really adds urgency to the whole matter. Because its one thing to want to have one of your own as a retainer when nobody has it and another to want it when your rival already has it and is presumably taking advantage of it.
 
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I fully expect for the Diao or one of the other imperial leaning clans to push hard for a retainer after this deal goes public.
It's likely to be the Diao in all honestly. Through us, the Bao have some influence given that they have one of their scions courting us, so the Bao won't be desperate to get more influence just yet. The Wang are getting pulled more into the Cai orbit and are likely pleased that one of their Scions is making inroads to the Cai through us as well. The Jia are firm supporters of the Diao and would likely let the latter have the first shot at getting a retainer before trying to pull their own.

The Luo, on the other hand, may push as well, but would likely keep quiet for the moment, especially since the Meng have some similar priorities.

So if we take this offer, I could see some serious pushing by the Diao to get a retainer in Lady Cai's circle.
 
No they aren't. This is barely a try compared to what will happen once one of the clans succeeds and really adds urgency to the whole matter. Because its one thing to want to have one of your own as a retainer when nobody has it and another to want it when your rival already has it and is presumably taking advantage of it.

You seem to be pushing for CRX to never take on any politically influential retainers. I think that's daft, since you don't get anything done in politics without influence, and CRX's goal of justice reform is fundamentally political. She's going to need buy in from the entrenched powers to change any part of those systems, and she won't get that by turning down all the count scion applications for retainer positions.

So since she's going to need allies, why not have those allies owe LQ a favour and be aligned with her general goals?
 
No they aren't. This is barely a try compared to what will happen once one of the clans succeeds and really adds urgency to the whole matter. Because its one thing to want to have one of your own as a retainer when nobody has it and another to want it when your rival already has it and is presumably taking advantage of it.
But that's what we want. It shows that CRX is treated a serious player/resource on the political board. It shows that her opinion and thus siding with her can be profitable and matters. Its good. You are literally complaining about a situation where we are successfully making progress towards our and our liege's goals.

Or do you think you can reform a government without support from elements of the elite?
 
But that's what we want. It shows that CRX is treated a serious player/resource on the political board. It shows that her opinion and thus siding with her can be profitable and matters. Its good. You are literally complaining about a situation where we are successfully making progress towards our and our liege's goals.

Or do you think you can reform a government without support from elements of the elite?
It's not what we want though. If it was what we wanted, it would have already happened. There would be no need for them to jump through all these hoops, CRX would just send letters to the relevant parties and they'd all happily come to her.

That she hasn't makes it clear that she doesn't want retainers from all the count clans. And the reason why is that she wants to reform the ES, not get completely tied up in obligations to everyone who benefits from the status quo.
 
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It's not what we want though. If it was what we want, it would have already happened. There would be no need for them to jump through all these hoops, CRX would just send letters to the relevant parties and they'd all happily come to her.

That she hasn't makes it clear that she doesn't want retainers from all the count clans. And the reason why is that she wants to reform the ES, not get completely tied up in obligations.
This feels like a stretch. Just because she hasn't wanted count retainers yet doesn't mean she would never want count retainers. My read is that she wanted to get a core of retainers loyal to her before branching out. She has GG and Ling Qi. She may have wanted more, but the wheel turns and the situation has changed. Any plans she had has been pretty much shot and she needs to move faster than she might have liked.

Before the past year the Meng were a side player. They were isolationist and border the Bai, who cared about them? Now though? They border the Bai, that gives them a lot more power than it used to. Power CRX can leverage.
 
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We are putting a lot of trust into this Meng lady. I do not THINK she will put somone incompetent in our team, nor that her grandson will secretly be a saboteur, hoping to undermine diplomatic efforts.

Still, as I see it, this is what Lady Meng is asking of us:

We are to rally a team. It will include Ling Qi as the expedition leader, Cai Renxiang, an adjutant of General Xia (which we have no choice in the matter either, and I am guessing will also be a source of trouble). And a limited number of other people we're meant to select. People that have our trust and that we're familiar with. Lady Meng wants us to replace one of these trusted companions with a stranger she's vouched for.

This stranger not only gets to replace someone we'd feel more comfortable having around, but he will be there to try and ingratiate himself to Cai Renxiang. He will most likely observe what our relationship with CRX is like and report to his family later. He is pretty much a spy to try and learn vulnerabilities from CRX and also, to a lesser extent, he will observe LQ and report on her. Of course, if things go poorly and something happens to him, the Meng will resent us for whatever happens to him. If he turns out to be unpleasant and we deny him the respect he thinks he's entitled to, he will return angrily to the Meng and it will also lower our standig with them. If we're particularly unlucky, we'll be expected to guarantee him chances to bond with CRX, and if HE fails to establish any sort of connection with her, LQ will be blamed for not helping enough.

If only we could tell Lady Meng "Okay, I will try to get him a place in the expedition, but I do not take responsability of whatever he does or fails to achieve, nor of whatever happens to him." that would be swell. But we can't really stand our ground THAT firmly, I think.

Still, I think we should accept. There are a lot of potential backfiring situations, but if it goes well, all we'd be doing is trading a bit of information about our relationship with CRX for political favors later down the line, and a better reputation. Which won't be exclusive since we're already being forced to take General XIa's agant along with us as well. I expect the Meng and the Xia won't be the only ones who will try to forcefully send one of theirs into the expedition group.

Perhaps we should start thinking about WHO we want to invite to come with us. Can we ask for fellow sect members? I'd suggest Xuan Shi to come with us, but I feel like we had our opportunity to invite him and passed, already. ...I'd also like to invite Meizhen, if only so that Meng's grandson has someone to bicker with. Meng is not exactly in a position to suddenly add "Oh yeah. Also,I don't want you to include Bai people in your expedition."
 
It's likely to be the Diao in all honestly. Through us, the Bao have some influence given that they have one of their scions courting us, so the Bao won't be desperate to get more influence just yet. The Wang are getting pulled more into the Cai orbit and are likely pleased that one of their Scions is making inroads to the Cai through us as well. The Jia are firm supporters of the Diao and would likely let the latter have the first shot at getting a retainer before trying to pull their own.

The Luo, on the other hand, may push as well, but would likely keep quiet for the moment, especially since the Meng have some similar priorities.

So if we take this offer, I could see some serious pushing by the Diao to get a retainer in Lady Cai's circle.
Why would the Diao bother? Not only is Shenhua married to a Diao, but she openly flaunts her lesbian relationship with the Diao head. What does the Diao gain bothering with Renxiang when they've already got such close ties with the Duchess? Maybe once Shenhua ascends or Linqin passes, but that's centuries out.
 
It's not what we want though. If it was what we want, it would have already happened. There would be no need to jump through all these hoops, CRX would just send letters to the relevant parties and they'd all happily come to her.

That she hasn't makes it clear that she doesn't want retainers from all the count clans.
Do you think the Meng would be here making this offer right now if both we and CRX had decided to say, argue for the military or economic benefits when presenting the White Shy situation to court at Xiangmen? Options that the Meng either did not care for or disliked.

DId you forget that this was brought on pretty clearly because we used the Cultural Bonds Arguments which the Meng liked. Hence why the woman who saw us making that argument came personally instead of sending a messenger?

Do you understand that we are likely only getting the personal visit of a member of the Court because she saw that her family could work with the Heiress and LQ, and that this is a huge opportunity brought about by our actions?

Do you understand that her showing her face personally to make such an offer, than doing so in person. In political terms is in fact a huge fucking deal, and demonstrates an enormous amount of good will and demonstration that they are entirely willing to risk being seen and that they are taking a bit of a risk and thus they are being honest here? The same impact could not have been done with letters. Sure it could have still be arranged. But it would lack the personal touch, the personal show of respect, the public demonstration that some degree of agreement has been reached.

This is fucking huge in the politics.

As for "This isnt what we want. Because this would have happened anyways". No it very much could have worked otherwise. CRX is known to be disliked by the Chancellor. Lady Cai is publicly making moves, like hiring a goddamn Medicine Saint, that shows that at the moment she might care for her second daughter more than CRX.

Furthermore, CRX herself is enormously young for a cultivator, nevermind the heiress of a clan. Nevermind the heiress of a Ducal Clan. There is in fact absolutely zero rush for the Barons and Counts to try and curry favors with her. When they could easily sit back and wait a few years to see how tensions between CRX, her sister and the Chancellor plays out, see whose policies benefits them more and then give their support. There is literally no reason for Clans to be competing with each other to get on CRX's good side at the present, because there are very little real benefits to them at the present.

CRX's position has been strengthened incredibly by the current armed conflict, hers and ours performance in the conflict so far, and the political bomb we threw at the Court with the White Sky. Events, and our actions in response and to take advantage of them, have made some like the Meng, and likely Bao and Wang decide "Eh you know what, Ogodei Mark 2 incoming. Its not a bad idea to invest in the young heiress now."
 
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If it was what we want, it would have already happened. There would be no need for them to jump through all these hoops, CRX would just send letters to the relevant parties and they'd all happily come to her.
I'm sorry, what? CRX has hasn't even left the war games/playground for kids to practice that is the Sect. I'm really not clear on what you meant in this response.
What we want is to reform the government in the future. Trading favors and gaining good will is essential in politics. Thinking that this could be avoided would be naive. We're CRX's left hand, we're gonna have to deal with a lot of politics. If we shun any possible new allies, we'll end up isolating ourselves and by extension, CRX.
 
CRX's position has been strengthen incredibly, by the current armed conflict, hers and ours performance in the conflict so far, and the political bomb we threw at the Court with the White Sky.
No it hasn't. It's still weaker than it was before the pregnancy announcement. And yet this people have spent every opportunity courting her favor already. And she has ignored them in favor of grabbing some commoners.
 
Why would the Diao bother? Not only is Shenhua married to a Diao, but she openly flaunts her lesbian relationship with the Diao head. What does the Diao gain bothering with Renxiang when they've already got such close ties with the Duchess? Maybe once Shenhua ascends or Linqin passes, but that's centuries out.
Because there are inner tensions within the Diao. The Matriarch of the Diao doesn't see eye to eye with plenty of her clansmens. Getting one of theirs as a retainer in Cai's group allows them to start working on different avenues to get what they want.

Another reason is that the Heir is clearly going to be doing things. The work with the people beyond the Wall is just the start and as Cai Renxiang gets more authority she will be doing more work and making more changes. The Diao will want to control and direct that work to benefit them. Leaving Cai to her own devices is just letting go of the means to work with and direct the next ruler.
 
No it hasn't. It's still weaker than it was before the pregnancy announcement. And yet this people have spent every opportunity courting her favor already. And she has ignored them in favor of grabbing some commoners.
Its definitely weaker than it was before the pregnancy and so?

Its still improved massively since that point. Which is an advantage that a young heiress active on the diplomatic and military field can leverage. Because there is an active conflict going on. And baby sister aint going to be getting any achievements from that until at least 1-2 decades after CRX gets a headstart.
 
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So, hm. I'm tentatively in favour of accepting here, but I really think just doing that isn't good enough. If we accept, we need to be taking advantage of the opportunity to build a strategy for the diplomatic expedition as a whole. What first leaps to mind is having representatives from a demonstrably diverse set of people adds weight to any suggestions of non-hostility we advance. Showing we're not pure monoculture suggests we're not aiming at total annihilation of different groups.

Plenty of the empire basically is aiming for that, but shh. We're diplomancing here.

But basically, I think just having this Meng along doesn't serve this approach strongly enough. It'd be good if we could include someone representing an even broader, imperial, context. In terms of people we know from other provinces, who are from prominent clans, clans that are interested in the goings on in our province, and are open to non-hostile contact with foreigners, it's pretty much Xuan Shi. The lumber trade is important enough to ES as a whole that it's difficult for anyone local to gainsay too.
 
Hmm... First impressions are important, I'd rather have Ling Qi show that she's willing to play the game even when she's likely to loose, than that she's an isolationist who thinks bad of people by default. If this backfires we can always use it as a precedent to refuse other such offers or at least demand more info, but for now I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I think I'll go with "Accept".

Plus, Meng really wouldn't want to fuck this up. They want Ling Qi to be their ally.
 
I do believe that since this is a huge favor we're undertaking... We shouldn't let it to just go:

Meng: "Hey, I want you to get my grandson on your team. Because my faction will benefit from it."
Ling Qi: "Okay."

There is being polite and nice, but LQ should really start asking "Well. What will you give me in exchange of this? You didn't expect me to just accept without making demands of my own, did you?" ...Again, we can't talk to an Indigo person with this degree of disrespect (If we were Ji Rong or Sun Liling, we might, but that's not who LQ is), but we can surely find a more polite way to say this to lady Meng.

Also, I wonder if the Bai in general will go "So this Ling Qi person is making deals with the Meng, huh? We do not approve. Meizhen, we don't want you talking to her anymore. She's an enemy of our interests now."
If we have the chance, we should try to make nice with the bai to compensate with the fact that we're establishing diplomatic bonds with their political enemies. Perhaps this is a ploy by the Meng to weaken our bond with Meizhen/ the Bai. And if that is the case, we must not allow it to succeed. Moonless Smile Saboteur, we're counting on you to reveal this kind of underhanded plot, if it really is what is going on!
 
If there is one aspect I despise about this, it's the idea that Qi is taking a bribe to arrange for a preferential position to be given to a relative. I want to know if Ren herself would both benefit and prefer this. If it's "yes, it's a good thing that you are making inroads with the Meng and attracting a potential retainer from them, this will be useful in the future", then I am all for it, with the assumption that it will made certain that he won't fuck up the mission. Otherwise, Qi's loyalty won't waver.
I don't think political connections are bribes; she's not handing over a sack of green stones here.
 
The moratorium is over
[X] Accept the offer, you can convince Renxiang and sponsorship from even a faction of a count house is a valuable thing.
 
[X] Accept the offer, you can convince Renxiang and sponsorship from even a faction of a count house is a valuable thing.
 
[X] Accept the offer, you can convince Renxiang and sponsorship from even a faction of a count house is a valuable thing.
 
Arrogance and apathy. Indeed, when the situation was reversed, and the folk of the Lakes flooded south from undefended settlements, the Bai did threaten us for the return of their people, and the Hui ordered the border closed. Ten thousand years and more, and I am to believe that they have changed now?" she sneered.
So did the Meng close the borders after refugees fled into their territory, or did the Bai force them to close before the refugees could enter ES?

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[X] Accept the offer, you can convince Renxiang and sponsorship from even a faction of a count house is a valuable thing.
 
[X] Accept the offer, you can convince Renxiang and sponsorship from even a faction of a count house is a valuable thing.

Our job is to be outreach to the more traditionalist clans. One of the more traditionalist clans wants to open a direct line of engagement with our liege lady. That doesn't mean that we're buddy-buddy with them forever, but let's see how they play ball.
 
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