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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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Valmond said:
Because it's not who we are? Or who he is?
Again, our son, not our partner, i don't want Zhengui to spend the next thousand years just hanging on to us, i want him to have a rich personal life outside our arms reach.
I just don't see value in fundamentally changing who, or what, we are, for what i see as a fleeting tactical advantage.
Especially when doing so would be costly and time consuming when we do not have the luxury for it, and i'm not sure if it could be done safely, or at all.

Also, we already have ways to work together, it's just not through custom arts that tie us together, but by taking our differences and working with them.
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plus to add on to this, lq already fights well with zhengui, shes been developing ways to become a control cultivator , making hardspots in the field of battle that the enemy HAS to deal with . we saw how well they did during the fight. lq isnt freezing his fire balls or anything b4 they hit the enemy, most of her attacks are conceptual and doot the soul while zhenguis are all about forting up and becoming a raidboss tank.

not to mention while unorthodox having extremely diverse elements to work with works well for lq future clan. weve been told repeatedly that you cant really copy your founders/clansmens ways. and that those that try end up stalling out becuase cultivation is extremely individualistic.

having music, cold, fire, wood arts and elements from just zhengui and lq alone means our future scions have a lot of potential arts to copy/ work with to suit their needs , at least for their foundations. and this isnt even including Hanyi and Sixiang in the picture
 
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)

I think further good relations with the wang is exactly what we want. we don't really care about the meng since we haven't really interacted with them. as for the culture argument, we are insulting the diao, the strongest clan that sides with the duchess. this is a big no no. we do this, and it'll take time and effort to amend. the only reasonable argument I think we have for supporting the culture argument is that we don't actually want a militaristic view. we don't want to make further enemies.

well, the court doesn't care about what we want. later on we might try to report to the duchess about future possible interactions and advocate for a peaceful narrative. we might succeed. we might not. either way, I highly doubt our own singular opinion can change what anyone thinks about the matter. the court doesn't give a shit, and will act however they want regardless. sure we don't want the militaristic view, but in court what we want and what we say should be two different matters essentially. plus, we're at war. it's only reasonable.
 
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Mr.rodent said:
not to mention while unorthodox having extremely diverse elements to work with works well for lq future clan. weve been told repeatedly that you cant really copy your founders/clansmens ways. and that those that try end up stalling out becuase cultivation is extremely individualistic.
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On top of this.
There is a benefit to having very disparate themes.
Anyone fighting Ling Qi with Zhengui in tow has to not only figure out how to deal with all the BS Ling Qi throws at them, but how to deal with Zhengui as well.
It's like a boss fight with constant mode changes.

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thkiw said:
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)

I think further good relations with the wang is exactly what we want. we don't really care about the meng since we haven't really interacted with them. as for the culture argument, we are insulting the diao, the strongest clan that sides with the duchess. this is a big no no. we do this, and it'll take time and effort to amend. the only reasonable argument I think we have for supporting the culture argument is that we don't actually want a militaristic view. we don't want to make further enemies.

well, the court doesn't care what we want. later on we might try to report to the duchess about future possible interactions and advocate for a peaceful narrative. we might succeed. we might not. either way, I highly doubt our own singular opinion can change what anyone thinks about the matter. the court doesn't give a shit, and will act however they want regardless. sure we don't want the militaristic view, but in court what we want and what we say should be two different matters essentially. plus, we're at war. it's only reasonable.
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1. Why? Should we seek to court the opinion of only the loyal and powerful? That is exact opposite of why we were brought into the group in the first place.
Also, we want the Meng to think well of us because they are traditionalists and we were supposed to help bring traditionalist into the fold.

2. If you do not want militaristic view, you should not court and strengthen those with that view. Also, sincerity is our whole damn thing, let's not start making insincere arguments. This is about how we are viewed, not what will happen, do we court the merchants, martial pragmatists (also expansionists) or those who value old traditions.

Also, the fact that we have not interacted with the Meng means that this is especially good situation to make sure they think well of us.
Because we will have to deal with them eventually.
 
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Valmond said:
On top of this.
There is a benefit to having very disparate themes.
Anyone fighting Ling Qi with Zhengui in tow has to not only figure out how to deal with all the BS Ling Qi throws at them, but how to deal with Zhengui as well.
It's like a boss fight with constant mode changes.

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1. Why? Should we seek to court the opinion of only the loyal and powerful? That is exact opposite of why we were brought into the group in the first place.
Also, we want the Meng to think well of us because they are traditionalists and we were supposed to help bring traditionalist into the fold.

2. If you do not want militaristic view, you should not court and strengthen those with that view. Also, sincerity is our whole damn thing, let's not start making insincere arguments. This is about how we are viewed, not what will happen, do we court the merchants, martial pragmatists (also expansionists) or those who value old traditions.

Also, the fact that we have not interacted with the Meng means that this is especially good situation to make sure they think well of us.
Because we will have to deal with them eventually.
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my whole point was that there is no much say for us in here anyways. we just want to watch our words in case they might have a bad influence on how the clans view us. plus, we don't actually advocate for attacking them specifically - since they haven't quite joined the fight yet. it's right that from a military perspective we want to keep it that way. I get the meng being traditionalists argument though.
 
thkiw said:
my whole point was that there is no much say for us in here anyways. we just want to watch our words in case they might have a bad influence on how the clans view us. plus, we don't actually advocate for attacking them specifically - since they haven't quite joined the fight yet. it's right that from a military perspective we want to keep it that way. I get the meng being traditionalists argument though.
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Yes, and every option pisses of someone.
Why are Diao especially a nono to piss off? Yes, they are influential, and powerful, and presumably rich, and so on and so forth.
But the one opinion that matters is Shenhua, and i doubt Shenhua is going to be influenced by her lover disliking us as long as we keep showing ourselves competent and loyal.

This is a change to stake our place, are we the merchant baron, pragmatic military baron, or the traditionalist baron.
We won't get this change again, and to me the culture option is the one that puts us where we need, and should want, to be.
 
Valmond said:
Because it's not who we are? Or who he is?
Again, our son, not our partner, i don't want Zhengui to spend the next thousand years just hanging on to us, i want him to have a rich personal life outside our arms reach.
I just don't see value in fundamentally changing who, or what, we are, for what i see as a fleeting tactical advantage.
Especially when doing so would be costly and time consuming when we do not have the luxury for it, and i'm not sure if it could be done safely, or at all.

Also, we already have ways to work together, it's just not through custom arts that tie us together, but by taking our differences and working with them.
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Isn't the point of green to personalise arts??? Zhengui should have some influence right... Wouldn't call it a fleeting tactical advantage either. Was more hoping for discussion on how Zhengui can be incorporated into our fighting style. At the moment he's pretty much just a loner in a fight besides adding some buffs to protect him. Just seems silly to overlook how they could mesh well together... He's pretty much a walking fortress that can blow stuff up. The spars where they fought together didn't really have much cohesion between them? Would that not be time well spent she learns arts pretty quickly, already there's been some mention of an art of the mist taking on aspects of that old tree protection as an option for the mist. Suppose I don't see the difference in going in a direction where the mist makes use of the Zhengui's ash or her domain removing heat and buffing up Zhengui for a boon.

Differences work well if they cover each other's weaknesses, but we haven't exactly got that yet right? i suppose I might be pushing Zhengui as he's my favourite part of the story so bias abounds. Just seems strange to me to get a Legendary beast and not try to fight in sync with it at all. or is that because she doesn't actually want to fight with him as he's like her son...
 
reade said:
Isn't the point of green to personalise arts??? Zhengui should have some influence right... Wouldn't call it a fleeting tactical advantage either. Was more hoping for discussion on how Zhengui can be incorporated into our fighting style. At the moment he's pretty much just a loner in a fight besides adding some buffs to protect him. Just seems silly to overlook how they could mesh well together... He's pretty much a walking fortress that can blow stuff up. The spars where they fought together didn't really have much cohesion between them? Would that not be time well spent she learns arts pretty quickly, already there's been some mention of an art of the mist taking on aspects of that old tree protection as an option for the mist. Suppose I don't see the difference in going in a direction where the mist makes use of the Zhengui's ash or her domain removing heat and buffing up Zhengui for a boon.

Differences work well if they cover each other's weaknesses, but we haven't exactly got that yet right? i suppose I might be pushing Zhengui as he's my favourite part of the story so bias abounds. Just seems strange to me to get a Legendary beast and not try to fight in sync with it at all. or is that because she doesn't actually want to fight with him as he's like her son...
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Not work cohesively? Did we read a different duel before our underground adventure?
Searching for arts takes time, so does modifying them.
I am strongly opposed to going for archive dives in hopes of a hail mary of an art that somehow bridges the gap between us and Zhengui without us needing to open new meridians or gain new insights, while still being as effective as the stuff we have. And i am somewhat sceptical of being able to change the arts we have without loosing effectiveness as well.

And what does the bolded even mean? Can't he be our son if our cultivation themes do not match? That's BS.
We are already taking steps to learn how to better fight with Zhengui.
We are taking up gardening to have more in common with him outside battle.
Changing ourselves at a fundamental level is not necessary.
 
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
 
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)

Let's not relitigate the Resist art vote, please. Pretty sure this argument hasn't moved anywhere since then, with the same drum beats to march to.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Aug 16, 2020 at 9:55 AM, finished with 244 posts and 120 votes.
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Valmond said:
Not work cohesively? Did we read a different duel before our underground adventure?
Searching for arts takes time, so does modifying them.
I am strongly opposed to going for archive dives in hopes of a hail mary of an art that somehow bridges the gap between us and Zhengui without us needing to open new meridians or gain new insights, while still being as effective as the stuff we have. And i am somewhat sceptical of being able to change the arts we have without loosing effectiveness as well.

And what does the bolded even mean? Can't he be our son if our cultivation themes do not match? That's BS.
We are already taking steps to learn how to better fight with Zhengui.
We are taking up gardening to have more in common with him outside battle.
Changing ourselves at a fundamental level is not necessary.
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Well they didn't exactly compliment each other did they, maybe cohesive wasn't the best word choice. But I just see Them as doing there own thing individually and sort of heading in same direction. And the bolded was a reference to lq's reluctance to see Zhengui in danger. That's still one of her hang ups right? Or was that fixed... I'm more confused that if he is our son why that has an impact on not syncing at least a bit in style.

We have taken a step to learn to fight better together. But it's not really going to do much besides getting better at fighting individually unless you combine some attacks for bonus effects right?

Gardening I saw as more of a bonding exercise with a promise of financial gains in the future.
 
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)

ezpz I see +luo or I see interest in cultures outside the Empire I take
 
yrsillar said:
She didn't let herself meet any of the many gazes around her, instead she focused on the speech in her head, the one she had rehearsed with Renxiang in those early hours of the morning.
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For those of us who are scared, that we might grab into fire with one of our options:


Remember that the speech was crafted alongside crx and was approved by her enough, that she okayed LQ giving that speech to her mom.


IIRC we have no indication that the votes have different chances of success. We do have different stated outcomes, though, and thus I chose who I wanted most on my side in the future and whose anger I'd like to weather most.

This is after all, as the arc name indicates, LQs political debut on the grand stage.
 
Zwobot said:
Edit: Aaaaand instantly flipping to the pragmatic vote. The culture option reads as Ling Qi trying herself at politics. Which she really shouldn't be playing at, yet.
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We're presenting an argument to the highest court in the province, in front of the Duchess of said province. All three options have Ling Qi getting herself more involved in politics, the difference being in how she gives her first impression.

[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
 
Linqin admittedly makes me a little nervous (not as much as Shenhua tho), so that's definitely a factor in what to vote on.

I agree though that if CRX worked on the speech as well, we should be less worried about how Shenhua's gonna react and more on the Count clans.
 
The idea of not trying our hand at politics seems weird.
We're a Baron, and a direct vassal of a ducal heir, we can't take a shit without it being political.
Good thing we barely need to eat anymore.
 
Karnax626 said:
We're presenting an argument to the highest court in the province, in front of the Duchess of said province. All three options have Ling Qi getting herself more involved in politics, the difference being in how she gives her first impression.
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Yeah, but Ling Qi has little claim to the culture and history she invokes here. It seems to me more like she's playing to preferences. Which isn't necessarily a wrong move, but lacks foundation. I mean ... she's a 16yo outsider invoking Weilu culture from centuries ago? The pragmatic argument is simple in comparison.
 
qwolfs said:
Take a look at the Indian genocide in America, because Europeans wanted their land and didn't care about incorporating their people.
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...Uh I don't know where you learned your history but European Settlers treated the various tribes and confederations thereof as independent polities for centuries?

Reservations weren't even a thing until Manifest Destiny was a thing, and that was after several (again) centuries of experiencing warfare and engaging in diplomacy and trade with Native Americans. Even the spread of christianity to them were attempts at bringing them into the larger culture.

You literally couldn't be further off base

The issue was almost always that the idiots that wanted their land frequently went and started killing and forced the issue with everyone else.
 
The part that bugs me about the pragmatism argument is that it marks White Sky as an enemy, just one we don't need to deal with yet.

Both culture and profit seem to take the stance that they don't have to be enemies.

I don't like the wording of the culture argument; I think the profit line is superior in a pragmatic "why make an enemy if there's a chance not to?" sort of way, but it feels disingenuous for Lin Qi in particular to try and make that point.

That being said, it seems proper for our court debut to align ourselves with the traditional factions, especially because our (and Ling Qi's) actual interest in White Sky is fundamentally cultural: our thought when we interacted with them wasn't "oh we can fight them last" or "how can I benefit economically", but rather "they seem interesting and civilized" or "there's a mystery there I want to solve". It's more sincere to express that.

[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
 
reade said:
Well they didn't exactly compliment each other did they, maybe cohesive wasn't the best word choice. But I just see Them as doing there own thing individually and sort of heading in same direction. And the bolded was a reference to lq's reluctance to see Zhengui in danger. That's still one of her hang ups right? Or was that fixed... I'm more confused that if he is our son why that has an impact on not syncing at least a bit in style.

We have taken a step to learn to fight better together. But it's not really going to do much besides getting better at fighting individually unless you combine some attacks for bonus effects right?

Gardening I saw as more of a bonding exercise with a promise of financial gains in the future.
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We are actively fixing that.
Which is what indirectly has lead us to the gardening as a hobby we can do together outside combat.
And, no, we don't need to combine attacks for bonus effects, this is not some tactical rpg.
We can fight together, by acting together, following agreed upon tactics, not getting in each others way, trusting the other to do their part and kicking our opponents ass.
It's a learning experience, learning some new art is not going to fix any of our issues.
We have nothing in common with CRX and we fought together marvelously in last encounter, by both trusting the other to do their job, we can do the same with Zhengui, except more so as we have more time to train together.
 
A couple of points that I don't think have been brought up, or I missed them:

1. The vote is retro-causal, CRX helped LQ rehearse a.k.a. the vote is deciding what argument CRX chose for LQ to present. When LQ speaks, the court will hear her speak not only for herself but CRX by proxy.

2. Feel like people are underestimating the Diao link a bit. While in the short term, it's fine if we don't have a working relationship with the Diao, its important that we get them on CRX's side in the long run.

A significant portion of Shenhua's influence comes from Diao backing. The Cai are a brand new clan, and they control very little land compared to he other major clans. I don't think any clan could replace them in the near to medium future.

The Diao are also only solidly loyal because of Shenhua and Linqin's relationship, that loyalty will not necessarily follow through to CRX if something were to happen to Shenhua.
 
Braidtugger said:
A couple of points that I don't think have been brought up, or I missed them:

1. The vote is retro-causal, CRX helped LQ rehearse a.k.a. the vote is deciding what argument CRX chose for LQ to present. When LQ speaks, the court will hear her speak not only for herself but CRX by proxy.

2. Feel like people are underestimating the Diao link a bit. While in the short term, it's fine if we don't have a working relationship with the Diao, its important that we get them on CRX's side in the long run.

A significant portion of Shenhua's influence comes from Diao backing. The Cai are a brand new clan, and they control very little land compared to he other major clans. I don't think any clan could replace them in the near to medium future.

The Diao are also only solidly loyal because of Shenhua and Linqin's relationship, that loyalty will not necessarily follow through to CRX if something were to happen to Shenhua.
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1. CRX may have helped us rehearse it, but i doubt it is her argument, merely one she accepts, Ling Qi is no yes man, and trying to have her make an argument she does not believe in would be a recipe for disaster.

2. I think people are over estimating Diao link. Yes, it is important, so is every other link, CRX can work on Diao through other means, Ling Qi is here to work on the traditionalists, so our introduction should be towards them.

We can, and should, work in Diao later, but not right now.
Also, the medium to long term is centuries, Shenhua is not croaking anytime soon, or if she does, Cai is done no matter what, CRX is not strong enough to be a duchess, not yet, not for decades, if not centuries.
 
Valmond said:
We are actively fixing that.
Which is what indirectly has lead us to the gardening as a hobby we can do together outside combat.
And, no, we don't need to combine attacks for bonus effects, this is not some tactical rpg.
We can fight together, by acting together, following agreed upon tactics, not getting in each others way, trusting the other to do their part and kicking our opponents ass.
It's a learning experience, learning some new art is not going to fix any of our issues.
We have nothing in common with CRX and we fought together marvelously in last encounter, by both trusting the other to do their job, we can do the same with Zhengui, except more so as we have more time to train together.
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I guess. Not getting in each other's way seems to be best case scenario atm. Just thought with our spirit beast just fighting together without getting in each other's way is setting the bar low. Look at Cui or the other spirit beasts of the stronger cultivators we've seen they manage it quite well. Either way I still love the story! Just a Zhengui fan who wants him to play bigger part in fights.
 
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)

[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)

picklepikkl said:
since Linqin isn't a fan of Renxiang for whatever reason.
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As others have said, she's likely hoping to fold the Cai into the Diao, and Renxiang (and Tienli as well, probably) is the wedge keeping that from happening. But on a more personal level, I think the reason Linqin dislikes Renxiang is that she's proof that no matter how much she and Shenhua may love each other, she can never truly be Shenhua's spouse, only a lover. Shenhua needs to have children, and Linqin can't provide that, so someone else gets to have the title of spouse over her; Renxiang symbolizes that, and so Linqin hates her for it.

Neshuakadal said:
we have shifted from being a spymaster to being a diplomat
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I'd like to imagine that we can be a diplomat who is also a spy. Not a master of them, but the best among the ones she has, and the one that answers directly to her. The spy above the spymaster.
 
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