Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)

Culture doesn't seem realistic, at all.
 
The Ice Woman wasn't exactly receptive to the idea of joining against the Hill Tribes, I think pushing the idea that these are civilized barbarians that could join us won't be received very well by either side. It's a foolish stake to make when we have no actual knowledge about them at all save that they weren't inclined to fight with us then. It just feels like a whole lot of assumptions, so why not go with the simplest truth - why fight them if we don't have to?

[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
 
Inserted Tally
Adhoc vote count started by FROIDBUSTER on Aug 16, 2020 at 3:07 AM, finished with 185 posts and 88 votes.
 
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
[X] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)
 
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Skimming through the discussion i saw the minimal profile description and our interactions with clan scion posted regularily, our initial meeting with the luo and bai clan ambassadors less often.

So for anyone wants to reread them:

The Luo representative was housed in more modest accommodations than the Bao. Rather than a house, they had merely set up a number of tents surrounding a larger pavillion, not made of the more common silk, but rather a thicker sort of cloth. If she remembered her lessons right, the Luo controlled a fair amount of pasture land, and they and their subordinates bred a few particular types of livestock with special properties, so she supposed it would make sense for them to use their own products.

The guards at it's entrance had been dressed more like woodsman than city guards, and had been less polite in their greetings, though still within the bounds of propriety, and she had been lead to one of the side tents to wait on the arrival of their representative. The inside of the tent was comfortable enough, the bare ground covered by thick rugs and colorful cushions, lit by soft light of floating paper lantern suspended in midair.

'I hope you intend to be a bit more helpful for this one, Sixiang,' Ling Qi thought as she settled in to wait, politely seating herself among one of the smaller nests of cloth and cushion arrayed around the small table in the center of the tent.

'You had the last one handled', her spirit sent back. 'I would have given you a nudge if you drifted off course. It looks like you can manage if you focus though.'

Ling Qi restrained herself from snorting at that half compliment. She couldn't gainsay the spirit though. It was still difficult not to slip back into more casual modes of speech by accident. She turned her attention instead to Zhengui, who had been quiet since their meeting with the Duchess, and prodded him with a feeling of concern.

'Big Sister shouldn't worry,' he replied in her thoughts, still sounding a little distracted. 'Zhengui will not distract Big Sister from important things.'

He was on edge about the sheer number of powerful people she was surrounded by, she could tell, but there was little she could do to really reassure him on the matter, not when she would be lying if she said that it didn't bother her at least a little as well.

At that moment, she as distracted from her thoughts as the tent flap opened, revealing one of the lightly armored guards, holding it open for a much older man. He was a spindly sort to her eye, with long limbs and a thin build, partially concealed by the ankle length cloak of soft leather worn over his shoulders, concealing the rest of his attire.
The man, who she recognized from Cai's description as Luo Jie, had narrow, severe features, marked by a surprising amount of wrinkles for a cultivator, mostly around his mouth and at the corners of his eyes. His head was clean shaven and bare, but a long thin gray mustache framed his frowning lips.

Ling Qi rose to her feet and offered a bow as the elderly cultivator, trying to ignore the man's unsettling aura. It felt like being alone and unarmed in the woods at night, while predatory eyes gleamed from within every shadow, his realm of power unreadable. "Eight Maiden's blessing on you Sir Luo," she said calmly, Sixiang's murmurs feeding her the right words. I offer my gratitude for this meeting, and the chance to offer my Lady's regards and well wishes."

The old man's head tilted slightly, his already half lidded eyes narrowing further as he examined her. "May the Dreamers attentions remain benign, child," he grunted, offering only a perfunctory nod in response to her bow as the guard allowed the flap of the tent to close behind. "You are Baroness Ling then?"

Sixiang felt a little huffy at his response, but Ling Qi forged on regardless. "I am, Sir Luo. I hope that my presence is satisfactory."

The old man waved a gnarled hand dismissively, picking his way across the thick carpet. "I accept your Lady's intentions, the question is, do you know them?" He asked, fixing her with a look that told her that he was not yet impressed.

Ling Qi hesitated a moment before straightening up and meeting his eyes. In a more normal situation, it would have been rude, but the families that followed the older ways had their own traditions. "Lady Cai believes I can more easily relate to you and yours, given my own affiliation with the moon."

Luo Jie smiled thinly in response. "You have a maiden with you, true, hiding in your thoughts, and the scent of moonlight on your skin. Do you imagine that privileges you, Baroness Ling?"

She hesitated for a moment, listening to Sixiang's whispers as she considered her answers. "Sir Luo, I am not of any of the old families, but I do regard the spirit we both revere as a patron," she replied quietly. "I cannot say I understand all of the differences between your ways and others… I have only just begun to learn the imperial ways after all," she began emphasizing that at the moment, she didn't really have a side. "I am of course, willing to receive instruction on these matters."

The older man crossed his arms under his cloak, studying her again. "Mmph, good enough," he grunted, seating himself cross legged atop one of the larger cushions. "Any voice not entirely bound by that rigid mindset is a boon. See that you retain your flexibility going forward."


Their space was placed on the west side, only a short walk from the grand pavilion of white silk being erected for the Duchess. The Bao, it seemed had elected for an expensive temporary structure, a small guest house that was nonetheless larger than the two story home she had provided her mother in town, surrounded by a low curtain wall and a built in garden. It's roof was tiled with green jade, and the walls were carved from a dark, nearly black wood, polished to a gleaming shine.

A man and a woman stood guard at the gates, dressed in light lacquered armor over fine padded gear, in colors similar to the house behind them. Their stances, already alert and at attention, straightened up further as she approached.

LIng Qi stopped at a respectful distance, just off the main path, where she would not be impeding traffic, and gave a very small bow, appropriate to greeting the subordinates of one who outranked you. "Baroness Ling, presenting herself to offer greetings and well wishes to the representative of the Bao in the name of the Cai clan," she said smoothly, remembering the line by rote.

The woman, who looked to be the older of the two, bowed in return. "This humble sentry will be honored to carry word of your presence to the Young Master, Baroness Ling," the reply had the same air of practised ease as her own line, though it was perhaps delivered a bit more smoothly. "I must humbly ask your patience in the interim."

Ling Qi reviewed her lessons in her head, that was a bit more respectful than was strictly necessary, given the difference in ranks involved here, even if the one speaking was a simple second realm guard. Knowing that she adjusted her response accordingly. "Do not trouble yourself with undue haste," she replied politely. "Please give your Master my personal regards for his courtesy." Talking like this all the time was going to be tiring, Ling Qi thought.

"The moon does not have any one face, and neither should you," Sixiang whispered, amused at her internal grumbling.

Which didn't square easily with the lessons of Argent Mirror, Ling Qi mused as the guard bowed again and went inside, leaving her under the watch of the male one. Then again… that was likely only her inexperience speaking. Sect Head Yuan, the inventor of the techniques, surely had experience dealing with courtly matters after all, she doubted that his techniques would conflict with such an essential part of cultivator life.

She was not kept waiting long, as the guard returned to escort her inside, letting her pass through the gates and into the garden. It was quite lovely she noted, and filled with all sorts of plants which she did not recognize, and which made Zhengui forget his woes regarding the earlier meeting in favor of mentally drooling over the array of treats.

The decor of the Bao's guest home was one of understated luxury, which was why she was almost brought up short as she left the entrance hall, and caught sight of what could only be the the man she had come here to meet.

Bao Quan was a man of middling height with a heavyset build and cheerful features. He was also more extravagantly dressed than any male cultivator she had seen before, not counting the abominable robes that Elder Jiao favored. Threads of precious metals she only recognized from books were woven into his robes, and jade rings adorned his fingers. Even his luxurious, chest length beard was kept in place by clips carved whole from valuable gemstones. Even the black scholars cap he wore had a diamond the size of a child's fist embedded in the cloth, set right above and between his eyes.

This flashy guy was the older brother of Li Suyin's dour and reclusive teacher?

Despite her surprise, she remembered to keep her manners as the guard who had lead her into the room where the Bao heir was seated bowed low to her master. "My lord, may I introduce Baroness Ling, as requested."

Ling Qi bowed in turn, bringing her hands together respectfully as she did so. "Sir Bao Quan, you honor me with a direct meeting," she recited. "This humble retainer of the Cai would like to convey her liege's thanks and well wishes toward your personage, and your clan."

The older man was only silent for a beat before he rose from his seat, a jovial smile on his thick features. "I hear and accept them, young Baroness," he replied cheerfully, flicking a hand in dismissal toward his guard. And why not? He was in the fourth realm of cultivation. His aura a glittering, gleaming thing that spoke of the untold wealth of the earth. "I suppose the Lady herself is entertaining the Bai and Xuan delegations?"

"She is, Sir Bao," Ling Qi replied, straightening up after an appropriate interval, she couldn't let her guard down just because he seemed friendly. "I sincerely hope that you do not take my presence as a slight."

"Of course not," the man scoffed. "I am aware enough of my own position. The Xuan are our greatest external customers, and opening up those reclusive Bai's to further relations would be quite a coup, this turmoil between provinces has been terrible for business," he grumbled good naturedly. "But, I am being a rude host, be seated, be seated," he continued gesturing at the other seat in the room, a richly upholstered chair that probably cost more than a house.

Sitting in it felt like sinking into a cloud though, she could admit, waiting only a beat for her host to take his seat first before doing as he instructed. "You are too kind, Sir Bao," the constant refrains of humility were a little irritating, but she could put up with something small like that easily enough. "My Lady Cai would like to express her gratitude at your arrival here, to witness her graduation."

"I look forward to seeing the Young Miss' triumph," the man now seated comfortably. "The Bao could hardly offer the insult of ignoring such an occasion," he added with a small chortle. "Besides, it does after all, give me a chance to visit my adorable little sister."

Ling Qi paused a moment, picturing Bao Qingling's unhealthy pallor, dark ringed eyes, and expression of bland disinterest. She wasn't sure of any definition of the word adorable which that girl fit. Thankfully, she kept any of that dubiousness from reaching her expression. "Miss Bao is doing well," she said instead. "I am sure she will be pleased to see you."

The older man looked at her with a bit of interest, folding his hands over his stomach. "Ah yes, I do believe she mentioned you once in her letters, a friend of her little project, was it?"

"Just so," Ling Qi replied, feeling a little put out at the mildly demeaning description of her friend. "I have visited her workshop once or twice, it is very impressive."

"Such an industrious girl, my sister," Bao Quan said, looking pleased. "So shy though, I shall have to pay her a visit," he shook his head slightly. "So, Miss Ling before we grow too distracted, was there any other business the young Lady Cai had to convey?"

"Only a few small matters," Ling Qi demurred, producing a small bundle of letters from her sleeve with a flick of her wrist. A slight flexing of the air around her carried the letters into the older cultivators hands. "Lady Cai has asked me to convey to you these recommendations for production disciples which might be worth some small attention..."

Her talk with the Bao representative went on for a bit longer, reviewing the small matters Cai had asked her to convey, and engaging in polite small talk. For what it was worth, Bao Quan did seem like a genuinely cheerful and mostly pleasant man, so Ling Qi thought the meeting went well.
 
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"Lady Cai," Ling Qi said, speaking up carefully. "Before we start preparing, I think there is something I should tell you."

Maybe it was her tone, but when Renxiang opened her eyes, Ling Qi thought she saw a hint of dread there, even with the radiance shining from her pupils.
...She wasn't that bad, was she?
In the back of my head I have the niggling feeling Ling Qi did something similar at some point, but when? Either way, this reads much more like a strict Liege and her Retainer catching up then the version beforehand.
Ling Qi could hardly breath as she straightened up. She scanned the crowd. Most seemed indifferent to her, merely eyeing her with idle interest. They didn't really expect anything of interest from her. They thought Shenhua was merely indulging her daughter. A few eyed her with something more like interest or disdain, but it was only a few.

Of the representatives, the Bao gave her an encouraging smile. The Wang representative seemed generally approving, though it was hard to read his face behind his beard and brows. The Luo and the Jia watched with disinterest. The Meng frowned at her but… didn't seem too hostile, actually.

The ambassador from the peaks, a man who reminded her of an older Kang Zihao, simply continued to observe in silence, his arms crossed over his chest.

Ling Qi is there to diplomance the Weilu and Old tribes. Also her whole art gallery represents old links linked to the new. The march of the beast is from the Beast gods, the art TRF is from an extinct count clan from the times of the Hui, Zhenguis ancestor were residents in the now destroyed eastern part of the continent which god pheonixbombed and Soulravaged. Hanyi is the daughter of a Blizzard from the last Ice Age. One could argue getting in contact with the White Sky is merely another form of that, since the Ice culture was present in the Emerald Seas at some point before.

[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
 
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I think in the current situation cold reasoning will have more weight, rather than a (in my view, vage) hope that this tribe may be folded into the empire. Plus, this option carries the malus to the Diao approval, and I think the Diao approval is the most important one to get (other than Cai Shenhua's of course).
Weight with who?
Because every option holds the equal weight, they just have it with different people.
Culture argument is pointing out that dealing with non imperials in non warlike fashion has the weight of history behind it, a tradition as old as empire.
I thin Diao is the least important one, sure, they are Shenhua's followers, which makes them least important to us, we are not here to reinforce alliances, but to make new inroads.
Culture gives is credit with the people we are supposed to bring into the fold, while it does not piss of people we are trying to make friends with.

I think Shenhua might be more impressed by a vote about what is right, instead of what is pragmatic or profitable.
She is all about breaking things down and remaking them properly, be it pragmatic or not, and i think the cultural argument would appeal most because it is about what is right.
 
[x] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
[x] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)
 
[x] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
[x] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)
 
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)



Profit would actually care most about the well-being of the White Sky, because you can do more trade with a trading partner the more prosperous they are.
Thinking that it's all about LQ is a little arrogant, no? Also, even opium wars are better than genocide, no matter military or cultural.
Historically, its much worse to be on the other end of an empire that wants your stuff instead of an empire that wants you.

Take a look at the Indian genocide in America, because Europeans wanted their land and didn't care about incorporating their people. Or what happened to Africans tribes that didn't want to trade with colonial empire, there's not much of them left.

Your best bet when dealing with an empire is not to. But if you have to then hope they want you and not just your stuff.
 
Every choice is probably possible, but I scanned through the posts and appeal to culture seems to be taken as if we advise them to wage a culture war against them (might even be true), but what we actually going to do is try use the empire tradition to make them see a cease fire with the ice witches in a positive light.
Sorry if that is obvious or isn´t actually relevant.


On another note and I hope that´s not obvious as well, but when a White ascends and changes the world in whatever way, is that a global event? and if someone ascends on the "other" side of the world would we experience the event?
Can two whites counteract each other?
 
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
 
Historically, its much worse to be on the other end of an empire that wants your stuff instead of an empire that wants you.

Take a look at the Indian genocide in America, because Europeans wanted their land and didn't care about incorporating their people. Or what happened to Africans tribes that didn't want to trade with colonial empire, there's not much of them left.

Your best bet when dealing with an empire is not to. But if you have to then hope they want you and not just your stuff.
Does Ice Lady looks like primitive aborigen to you? If she is any indication then White Cloud is far more advanced then poor africans. Also nuke/sublime ancestor is a good reason to stop genocide, no?
Imagine if native Americans had nuke. :evil:
 
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Every choice is probably possible, but I scanned through the posts and appeal to culture seems to be taken as if we advise them to wage a culture war against them (might even be true), but what we actually going to do is try use the empire tradition to make them see a cease fire with the ice witches in a positive light.
Sorry if that is obvious or isn´t actually relevant.


On another note and I hope that´s not obvious as well, but when a White ascends and changes the world in whatever way, is that a global event? and if someone ascends on the "other" side of the world would we experience the event?
Can two whites counteract each other?
Yeah, people seem to see the culture option as "go in and assimilate them" like we're the borg or something.

No, not global, we know that other parts of the world have different laws of physics going on, even different parts of the empire on a smaller scale.
 
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
 
I remembered a scene which is relevant context to the Culture vote:

The picture they painted was a strange one; of a people who wandered and settled depending on the season. Who sang songs to spirits of wind and rain, and played games of riddles and wordplay with terrestrial spirits to barter for boons and cultivation. She found herself laughing at silly scraps of legends about silver tongued tricksters and clever hunters. She found less cheerful songs as well, written in a strange ritual cadence and whispering of clashes with the Horned Gods of the Deep Groves.

Newer stories praised the sun and moon, and spoke of the Weilu more as strange neighbors than monsters in the dark, then as allies against the Cloud Tribes of the south. The songs took a turn for the dark though as they grew more modern. Songs of everyday life turned into melodies of war, and then subjugation, pages filled with venom for the conquering Xi, from there the stories began to disappear, and the songs and poems dwindled in number, growing more melancholy and full of nostalgia for the lost past with every year.

It's clear that there's a fair amount of ambiguity in engaging another people as "the Weilu and the Xi once did." The Weilu did not appear to pursue full on integration at all, for one. The Xi took a different approach.
 
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)

Ling Qi isn't actually comfortable with the culture angle. She doesn't have a defined position on barbarians vs not-quite-barbarians, and I'm not so sure it'd be seen as "support of old cultures". It's kind of patronizing, and it throws in our lot with the 'civilized vs uncivilized' division.

Profit is not who Ling Qi is or will be in the future, and would piss off the people who care about the actual harm done by the war.

Military is the most ground floor reasonable argument, it's something Ling Qi is actually coming to understand, and it just feels like the right concern in the situation.
 
"We were already at war," Cai Renxiang said quietly.

"It didn't really feel like it before," Ling Qi said. "The barbarians just got a sucker punch in, using a method we didn't expect. That was what it felt like, didn't it. They weren't a real threat. That's why we were still worrying about Sect ranks and the Elders were still taking volunteers instead of giving orders and…"

Cai Renxiang's fingers tightened on her knees, and Ling Qi fell silent. For anyone else it would have been nothing, but she could read the frustration and regret in the girls posture. Their talk from before the mission felt a little wrong now.

This.. I really like the characterization here. All our talk about glory and sect rank we indulged in ... and now Shen Hu is dead. Among others. Not to mention the rapidly escalating scale. I wonder whether there was anyone among the dead that Renxiang actually liked.

"Lady Cai," Ling Qi said, speaking up carefully. "Before we start preparing, I think there is something I should tell you."

Maybe it was her tone, but when Renxiang opened her eyes, Ling Qi thought she saw a hint of dread there, even with the radiance shining from her pupils.
...She wasn't that bad, was she?

Poor Renxiang. We're clearly her problem-retainer. She'd like a world with straight lines of causality and whenever we speak in that voice, we throw her yet another curve-ball.

[-] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)

Oof, tough vote. Alright, let this be our Debut in the court... Weilu intensifies.

Edit: Aaaaand instantly flipping to the pragmatic vote. The culture option reads as Ling Qi trying herself at politics. Which she really shouldn't be playing at, yet.

[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
 
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[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
 
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
 
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
[X] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)
 
It's probably a bit too late to shift the vote much (perils of time zone issues) but I'd like to point out that the argument that we can afford the hit to Diao approval as the Diao are close allies of the Cai neglects the fact that the Diao's opinion carries an outsize influence on Shenhua, due to her lover and her husband coming from there.

This means that if the actively disapprove of our plan and push against it they are much more likely to be able to significantly push back on it than other clans.

[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
[X] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)


Anyway approval voting for these. I like some of the implications of the [] Culture vote but some of the assimilation themes are just yikes. Military pragmatism is a sensible argument and what I thought we'd probably go for going in. I'm not really sure about trade but it leaves a lot more space for Ling Qi to grow toward accepting the idea that other cultures are valid and don't need to either be wiped out or integrated.
 
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
[X] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)
 
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
[X] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)
 
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
 
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