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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Thor's Twin said:
I really want to get MoSS, because it is awesome, thematic, and a really cool way to leverage our music skill for the benefits, but I also know that getting it is the least likely to help with our social problems right now. What to do, what to do.
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The way I see it the actual stats and abilities of the Arts aren't that impressive. They'll help but the main benefit is Ling Qi taking the lessons to heart and changing her perspective on socializing. She has already done half the work and PMR's philosophy is likely to do the rest in making her more agreeable to the Sect Nobles. PMR isn't good because it has good abilities, it's because Ling Qi has already internalized many of the lessons on sincerity and this lets her use this in court.

Neither MSS or MoSS would give us much we're in need of as we excel in dealing with spirits without the need for an Art to unlock hidden potential and while we need to become likable the Sect have yet to offer a situation where we needed skills at intrigue. Once we've level all of them a bit they'll make a real difference but right not we're just putting our first foot in the waters.
 
Thor's Twin said:
Ugggh...

I really want to get MoSS, because it is awesome, thematic, and a really cool way to leverage our music skill for the benefits, but I also know that getting it is the least likely to help with our social problems right now. What to do, what to do.
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The argument I have seen from anti-MoSS people is that as we are going to get Yu Nuan's spirit and do scouting before we have time to train, we aren't going to see many spirits afterwards, because obviously there is a 'spirit quota' that means that we should have learned MoSS at the end of last turn to have it be useful immediately. I completely disagree. Incidentally, I also think that narratively @yrsillar really shouldn't have Ling Qi realising she needs to be better with spirits when Hanyi became difficult/she had to pacify two different spirits in a scouting mission, then rush to find a spirit social arts... and not be able to even try to learn it before the schedule 'talk to spirit' two months later. This feels like a mechanical failure of the quest.

Myself, I believe that we will continue needing MoSS for spirits most every turns (our jealous gown, Hanyi being a teenager, Zhengui is growing up and needs more understanding, etc) even if we somehow never meet another new spirits again (like, you know, Lin Hai's Fox).

This brings me to my thoughts about PMR and MSS.... PMR and MSS both are narrative choices. Ling Qi has been going full in trying to mingle in groups, and trying to support CRX as well as not be a weight. As such, MSS fits in my mind Ling Qi's character as well as her desires. However, PMR feets more the players desires to want a Ling Qi that's more "in your face".

The main thing, though, is that no matter, HDW is the social art we currently have that fit the best Ling Qi's actual mode of thought (hearing the music of people's souls)... and is her strongest social art, no matter if we choose PMR or MSS, until Green 4 at least. As such, what we'll end up doing is that in social encounters we'll have either PMR/HDW or MSS/HDW equipped, depending on how we want Ling Qi to develop. Having three human-centric social arts, in the short term, is shooting ourself in the foot.

So, going to edit my vote:
[x][CDE+] Roaming Moon's Eye
[x][Social] Melodies of the Spirit Seekers

[x] Plan Sneaky Moon

I still hope MSS wins over PMR, but tactical voting is such that I need to vote against learning an art we are never going to equip in the quest.
 
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I... I don't really feel it's shooting ourself in the foot? HDW spreads itself way too thin IMO to be something you can specifically call a social art, so much as it's a "Perception and support art that can also moonlight as a social art".

PMR and MSS are comprehensive in the whole, MoSS's big issue is that it's a marginal increase to something Ling Qi is already good at, and won't expand her capabilities meaningfully until we've made a moderate investment in it.

Like, MoSS is good, and I agree, we want it.

That being said, I don't feel the level of investment we can make in it right here, right now, will be decisive enough? It's adding a +10 to a +50--to use a really tortured metaphor in vaguely mathy terms. Desirable, and something we want, but it does not necessarily expand our capabilities decisively until the same level of investment that you're saying PMR/MSS needs to be 'Good'

But a +15 to a score of +15 is a considerably greater investment--Ling Qi right now can sort of cross apply her music lessons and exposure to powerful spirits to get along with other spirits on the fly, but she has no major reference points or experiences in really dealing with the social constructs that come up any time a group of more than four or five people happens, and it's shown, she has the on paper skills to at least hold her own, but because she has no experience save emulating Cai Renxiang or Bai Meizhen, she applies her skills poorly.

PMR and MSS give her the context she needs to begin applying her skills correctly. And yes, while the value of this kind of investment is modest, it's being applied to a very low base value, and is a nice point of progress to capstone the 'Learn how to handle dealing with groups of people' mini arc that's been unfolding over the past two months, since that attendance at Renxiang's party where she realized how deep the pond was and resolved that she needed to do better. MoSS is a distraction from that theme, and because of that, there's a good chance it would come off as clumsy and forced (Or worse, just not given focus at all, which the art does not deserve)--and people have complained about that issue in the past.
 
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Ling Qi has actually less ability currently when dealing with spirits than when dealing with groups of people. Beforehand it was sort of equal because speech and empathy were lower than spirit ken, but now it's not the case anymore.

HDW has always been primarily a social arts, hence why all it techs and passives began in the social aspects, and then built into having a secondary combat aspect. The reason it's now 'good' for combat is because it's close to mastery. Back when we got CDE+HDW, the reasoning and arguments were "CDE is for Combat, HDW for social".

MoSS is not adding a +10 or a +50 right now, it's actually being able to thematically be able to effectively use music specifically to replace talking when dealing with spirits. We could still 'do' it with both humans and spirits previously (Meizhen, Yu Nuan, Fish, Mountain), but we only had an art that was good for humans (HDW) mainly, while Spirits have the issue of words being bad with them. MoSS strictly cut that issue.. and in the short, mid and long term, we are going to meet and bargain with a lot of spirits.

Ling Qi already had context to apply her skills correctly with HDW, but HDW was more about listening than actually talking. MSS or PMR are then about how you do the talking. MSS is about making sure people don't dislike you, and making sure your friends and boss is liked. PMR is about trying to make yourself in particular liked.

While I can see the argument that HDW alone isn't enough (an argument I don't agree with, but I can respect it), HDW+MSS or HDW+PMR is flat out better than PMR+MSS until Green 4.
 
[x] Plan: All the options
[x][CDE+] Casual Diviner's Poise
[x][Social] Playful Muse's Rapport
[x][Social] Moonless Saboteur's Smile

[x] Plan Cheerful Muse
 
Arkeus said:
Ling Qi has actually less ability currently when dealing with spirits than when dealing with groups of people. Beforehand it was sort of equal because speech and empathy were lower than spirit ken, but now it's not the case anymore.
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So you're saying empathy isn't applied to spirits?
 
[X] Plan: All the options
[X][CDE+] Roaming Moon's Eye
[X][Social] Playful Muse's Rapport
[x][Social] Moonless Saboteur's Smile

[X] Plan Cheerful Muse
 
[x] Plan: All the options
[x][CDE+] Casual Diviner's Poise
[x][Social] Playful Muse's Rapport
[x][Social] Moonless Saboteur's Smile

[x] Plan Cheerful Muse

Still torn on which CDE+ to get; bah.
 
[X] Plan: All the options
[X][CDE+] Roaming Moon's Eye
[X][Social] Melodies of the Spirit Seekers

[X] Plan Cheerful Muse

Ultimately, I don't think that we need to get PMR and MSS to have a functional social suite. I think that one or the other is perfectly fine for our troubles. I also believe that MoSS is wonderful for Ling Qi in terms of leveraging her music in ways outside of combat. While we have been successful in the past without MoSS in communicating to Spirits through song and rhythm, I think that there is a lot of untapped potentials to be had in the area.

Furthermore, I would like to prepare for Songseekers Ceremony. We are cultivating it this turn, and I think that having MoSS on the same turn could be beneficial. At the very least, it should open up more options next turn regarding communicating with spirits that we can enjoy.
 
dycouza said:
The way I see it the actual stats and abilities of the Arts aren't that impressive. They'll help but the main benefit is Ling Qi taking the lessons to heart and changing her perspective on socializing. She has already done half the work and PMR's philosophy is likely to do the rest in making her more agreeable to the Sect Nobles. PMR isn't good because it has good abilities, it's because Ling Qi has already internalized many of the lessons on sincerity and this lets her use this in court.

Neither MSS or MoSS would give us much we're in need of as we excel in dealing with spirits without the need for an Art to unlock hidden potential and while we need to become likable the Sect have yet to offer a situation where we needed skills at intrigue. Once we've level all of them a bit they'll make a real difference but right not we're just putting our first foot in the waters.
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Ling Qi really doesn't excel in dealing with spirits, is the thing. Ling Qi has benefited greatly from dealing with spirits, but that's... virtually solely because Grinning Moon took interest in us and then Xin's failed pseudo-adopting us. She was carrying water like crazy behind the scenes with Zeqing, for instance.

Ling Qi is largely incapable of dealing with spirits who don't have substantial human influence or familiarity. She does not routinely display a large amount of knowledge, lore, or familiarity with spirits at large. The number of spirits she's had dealings with that weren't rigged in her favor are very few. It's very important to realize that Ling Qi's spirit affinity has largely been a matter of favoritism, not skill or even affinity per se. The one thing she brought to the arena of spirit dealings was ignorance of Imperial cultural norms, which meant she tended not to put spirits instinctually on a lower pedestal than herself even when they were stronger, and also spirit aunties think it's cute.

Our protagonist just really doesn't live up to the spirit hype around her. Yet.
 
Orkus Majorkus said:
Hey when did we plan on cultivating our badass new arts like Beast King or Glacial or the Bai armor art?

I want to see the despair in their eyes when they realize what it takes to take Ling Qi down
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The idea is a darkness arts havy turn 8 to take advantage of the darkness pill and finally get started on some arts. Though only wind thief and SNR will be immediately usable without meridians, with UGM following shortly after (free arms) and BKSD maybe waiting for green 4 before we start using it over FVM.

Alectai said:
That being said, I don't feel the level of investment we can make in it right here, right now, will be decisive enough?
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Three things for the record:
  • Plan-wise we can totally fit 1AP of a third social art turn 8 or 9 (the non-darkness turn), and should be easily getting all 3 to usable levels and potentially even mastery if we're willing to spend the AP there instead of diving into art modding or the like.
  • Even at level 1 I expect MoSS to provide a significant asset when dealing with spirits since the art lets us leverage our increasingly bullshit music skill at the problem.
  • When we're not doing social having MoSS equipped on top of HDW(which is useful still for perception) is much more doable than having the full PMR+MSS suite, otherwise we'd have to go without HDW or only have MSS equipped if we don't open more than the planned 8 head meridians.
 
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Xepheria said:
Since I was really bored on the plane yesterday, have another hand shiny.

This one is called the 'super ultimate friendship bracelet of ultimate friendship'.

Totally serious, I swear.
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"Oh hey, that looks pretty."

*scrolls slightly further down*

"Are those dismembered eyeballs wrapped around the wrist?"

*scrolls back up*

*sees animal skull and flesh wings*

"Creepy. Still pretty, but also creepy."
 
[X] Plan: All the options
[X][CDE+] Roaming Moon's Eye
[X][Social] Playful Muse's Rapport
[x][Social] Melodies of the Spirit Seekers

[X] Plan Cheerful Muse
 
[X] Plan: All the options
[X][CDE+] Casual Diviner's Poise
[X][Social] Playful Muse's Rapport
[X][Social] Melodies of the Spirit Seekers

[X] Plan Cheerful Muse
 
[X][CDE+] Roaming Moon's Eye
[X][Social] Playful Muse's Rapport
[x][Social] Melodies of the Spirit Seekers

Varder said:
So you're saying empathy isn't applied to spirits?
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We asked Yrs before. Empathy applies only to very near human spirits. Against a Hill for instance the empathy pales against its natural inclinations.

Music helps, but we don't know how beyond slathering praise on as thick as Nutella
 
me.me.here said:
"Oh hey, that looks pretty."

*scrolls slightly further down*

"Are those dismembered eyeballs wrapped around the wrist?"

*scrolls back up*

*sees animal skull and flesh wings*

"Creepy. Still pretty, but also creepy."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The former are the different moon phases that we're aligned to.

The latter...

Well, Suyin is a creepy girl.

Stylish, but creepy.
 
[X] Plan: All the options
[X][CDE+] Roaming Moon's Eye
[X][Social] Playful Muse's Rapport
[X][Social] Melodies of the Spirit Seekers

[X] Plan Cheerful Muse
 
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I really liked what we learned of Shenhua here.
She does not need, want, or accept yesmen. If someone of proven loyalty calls her out on her shit, she will accept it, even if she is unable to change course.

There's also an important lesson, about how Shenhua is no longer able to act like a human, she is trapped by her nature.
It is important to learn things we can use, but thematic importance of skills is also very important, our skill and cultivation choices don't just define what we are capable of, but what we are.
Sure it's way past the point that quest is likely to reach without major timeskips, but the picks we take now, matter far more than just our immediate skill needs.
 
[X] Plan: All the options
[X][CDE+] Casual Diviner's Poise
[X][Social] Playful Muse's Rapport
[X][Social] Melodies of the Spirit Seekers
[X] Plan Cheerful Muse
 
[X] Plan: All the options
[X][CDE+] Roaming Moon's Eye
[X][Social] Playful Muse's Rapport
[X][Social] Moonless Saboteur's Smile
 
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