Mafio Party

Okay so, these large posts are rather intense lol. I do think that informed scum is a nigh on certainty, judging that scum are a bunch of cheating dicks who want to win a mario party game for big money.

So expect them to have dat knowledge, and probably the night actions are based off cheats, then maybe the cheaters have a hacking ability and can delete computers or something?

If so, then Winged cat being scum dropping a town hint claim this early in the day means that he wants the lynch train to die down by the end of the day and flip to someone else's lynch. Most early trains change targets even if there was legitimate reason to lynch the initial train target. Also, I do remember the admittedly Bastard CW game where we almost Day One lynched the serial killer.
Since the town name is already out, I may as well way in on what I judge as likely, and have judged as likely the whole time. Frankly, this post bumped you up a notch in my scum reads, but way I see it if the town is CPU characters, than scum is likely the human players.

It's also possible they are/there are buggy CPU players or some such.

But going by my role card I see no basis as to why you assume they are using cheat codes or whatever, which makes me read you as more likely tp be scum or at best third party...

Moving on for now.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't really get it. So far the only concrete proof that Winged Cat could be scum is posting the Town Faction's name/color, which is something possibly anyone in the game could have done. And in response a few of the players that I've noticed are often prolific and influential are agreeing with each other to lynch Winged Cat and also seem super seriously ticked off at him. I guess the logical explanation is that these veteran players are seeing something I'm not, or that they're just putting the pressure on to try and get a roleclaim?
He dropped it super early in a way that actively hurts town while refusing to use basic analysis as a defense prior to doing so. The most charitable read to his skills is he is informed scum flubbing an early attempt to position himself as proven town, doubling so with him doing things like casting shade on Pawn Lelouch pointing out that it doesn't actually confirm him.

It is, of course, possible he is just being an idiot, but if so that makes him a least-bad town lynch, assuming he is town but just being a moron.

If he is town he should be dishing his scum suspicions however weak right about now, not possibly robbing a strong power role like doc or cop the ability to confirm town status as likely without revealing power when we get a real train closer to the wire.

It's distinctly anti town play even if he is town.
 
For evidence, one need look no further than to see that most of the other players have not yet given extensive commentary either, and we can presume (based on balance calculations, that scum typically auto-win once they are majority, and on prior games here) that most of the players are not scum. You cite the LMBF wagon, which appears to have been resolved (just waiting on people to find someone else to vote for; Cyricubed and Ellf voted for afterward but did not seem to notice that LMBF had given a defense). [/QOUTE]

Point taken, I failed to fully read every post and after a more careful review:
[X] Null Letmebefree


However something really concerning came forth:


"Lynch All Liars" may be a policy lynch by many definitions - but I said I have seen D1 lynches often winding up as policy lynches, did I not? Even if it's only borderline "policy", because scum are more likely to lie. (Even if you are Town - CPU - then lying like that is less useful to Town than other players.)

[X] Lynch Broken Base

(And yes, sorry to break out the team color this early, but if y'all - it's more than just BB at this point - are gonna press for serious content this early, then y'all get serious content this early.)
 
... Ironically, I'm kinda debating getting off Winged Cat right now. I'm not sure the case we have warrants a claim, and that's where we're heading?

Though @Pawn Lelouch why are you still on Cakestepid? Wasn't that your random vote?

Also my kind of... weariness made me miss that part of Riki's post but it's kind of... concerning? A bit concerning.

Also hope the absentees check in soon. There's Q, a couple newbies... anybody else we're missing?
 
It seems shift enters things the post and I meant to start a new line...my bad, noob mistake with the forum. I'll do my best to prevent the above from happening again
to fix what I was saying:

Point taken, I failed to fully read eveyr post and after a more careful review:
[X] Null Letmebefree

however concerningly:

"Lynch All Liars" may be a policy lynch by many definitions - but I said I have seen D1 lynches often winding up as policy lynches, did I not? Even if it's only borderline "policy", because scum are more likely to lie. (Even if you are Town - CPU - then lying like that is less useful to Town than other players.)

[X] Lynch Broken Base

(And yes, sorry to break out the team color this early, but if y'all - it's more than just BB at this point - are gonna press for serious content this early, then y'all get serious content this early.)

This makes me suspicious of how easily you were willing to give this information up early into day 1 with at least another 24 hours to go in the day, as noted by others of discussion, mainly your main opponents Terra and BB. And as noted, you didn't have a majority vote on you yet...but now you may be riding towards one, as such I'm fairly confident in saying

[X] Lynch Winged Cat

This is based on both the ease of information giving, and its something a townie really shouldn't have given up so early on day 1, I have played a few similar games to mafia and such however none on a forum base so I know the stylization and play style is something to learn, but I feel if the informed minority has access to this info it would have been easy to give this up to throw everyone off track, or ease suspicions. In the name of sportsmanship I make this vote.

On another note a lot of this other day one stuff seems like straw pulling, and strange unrelated arguments, am I wrong here?
 
Like... here's my issue I guess. Not only did this wagon get to 7 votes really fast, and I'm not sure how comfortable I am with that, but like... not everybody has even really checked in yet? We've pushed a player to 7 votes without even all the players present? That doesn't make me the most comfortable person in the world with all this. I wanted pressure but this has escalated really fast and I feel like there might be room to back down a bit and see what else there is to see?

The case isn't really... super strong either? I'm really thinking the lack of information is a playstyle thing, and overall while much of the responses frustrate me I really think we kind of spun each other into cycles of rage, and that really didn't help things. There's a lot about the play I question, but I'm not sure how much of it is scummy, how much of it is Winged Cat, and how much of it is just me kind of seeing what I want to see.

The main thing is the way that Winged Cat claimed NPC and that's something I'm... really not sure on? I don't like the random time he revealed it, I don't like the way he revealed it within the post itself. At the same time, I could see Winged Cat getting caught up in the emotion and trying to drop something like that to score some towncred? Like, it's at least in theory possible, and I'm not sure it's something I want to really bet on at the moment, given the circumstances?

Like at the very least I think we should wait until everybody is accounted for. Then we can discuss claims- and again, with 7 votes (potentially 8 soon), we're certainly getting there. I definitely wouldn't mind a couple votes kept on Winged Cat so that we maintain traction if we decide that's the direction we want to go but like... I'm really unconvinced we shouldn't explore other angles too? We've got the time.

I've just calmed down a bit and i kind of am rethinking things here, and just am worried we're going a little fast.

[X] Null
 
Like at the very least I think we should wait until everybody is accounted for. Then we can discuss claims- and again, with 7 votes (potentially 8 soon), we're certainly getting there. I definitely wouldn't mind a couple votes kept on Winged Cat so that we maintain traction if we decide that's the direction we want to go but like... I'm really unconvinced we shouldn't explore other angles too? We've got the time.
Hmm. That's fair. And I have an alternate suspect as I outlined.

[X] Null Winged Cat

[X] Lynch Rikimaru

Point me a better target than you, @Rikimaru. Do some analysis. Convince me you are broadly shaped like a town player in spite of your weird theories, if you would.

Or get lynched. *Shrug*.
 
(Personal Commentary will be the next post)
(Reasoning for why we are always annoyed by this debate is at the end)

Day 1 Lynch
I will be explaining this now, in full. To start, what it is and what is expected from it.
The biggest expectation for what happens on the Day 1 lynch is that a Town dies.
This is normal. There is not a lot of information yet after all. The purpose of the Day is to gather information, it's a lot like finding puzzle pieces after your brother got into the box. Eventually, you're going to be able to fit a lot of the pieces together to figure out the picture, and as they come together it gets easier for everything to slot in. To continue the metaphor however...

Not every piece is to the same puzzle.
A lot of the information gathered is meaningless, or would be there regardless of the puzzle that is being filled (Greetings between players for example, or memes in a JoJo game) You can't tell if it is or isn't a part of it until things start to come together however, so you have to have keep all that information at hand. (On the same note as this but unrelated to the Lynch Debate(TM) a Mason could be considered akin to if your brother kept a handful of the pieces, and whether they share info or not is like if your brother gave them back)

The first death is the first connecting piece of the puzzle.
Whether it's by Lynch or by Night Kill, the first death is the first concrete connection. Before then you might have had a few piles of similarly coloured pieces but nothing to really extend off of yet. A kill by ynch is a lot more likely to be a connection in one of those piles, and you can then sort out whether they go to the same shape or if they belong elsewhere. A night kill however could be entirely removed from the discussion. This is when you start piecing together as much as you can, before hitting a point where you have to make a different connection to start putting things together in another part of the puzzle.

That's an extended metaphor for the first Day, now I'll explain the various points against it and the reasoning provided against that.

It is almost certainly going to hit Town.
Tons of reasons for this, Town outnumbering Scum being the least important of them. The point against it is exactly that, we are acting on little information and are going to kill a Town. Less Town is bad, simple enough right?
-For why that's okay, there are usually a lot of Town, and gathering information is worth a single death. Mafia is the informed minority against the uninformed majority, and the only way the uninformed majority is going to win is either luck or turning into the informed majority.

'It doesn't actually gather information.'
Lynching a Town doesn't tell us anyone who is or isn't Town, scum could be on either side of the wagon.
-The people on either side of the final wagon really don't matter all that much, the reasoning they gave for the side they're on is what's important to look at. The speed at how quickly the wagon grew, how many people had their own reasons for joining it, who had no reason at all, those things are what we want to look at for the final wagon. More importantly however are the other players who were getting wagoned, because the biggest reason why Town is what is normally lynched Day 1 is that most mafia have support. So look for people who defend others, who intercept inquiries, or people who don't seem to have a lot of reason for leaving their previous vote to raise a wagon higher.

It's better to have information from the night to help decide who to lynch.
To cut back to my earlier metaphor, connections that are made without killing people.
-Any investigatives will know what they know, but they aren't very likely to share that information unless it's worth their life, meaning that aside from a select few people everyone will be walking into Town with the same info they had going into Day 1. Mafia are also often capable of gathering information at night, and by virtue of being a mafia, sharing it with each other out of the thread. They don't need to gather info to win, Town does.


The point of the Lynch.
It's pressure. The point of the lynch is to pressure people into taking stands, making cases (regardless of how good they are) and sharing their thoughts, because whoever we find the least satisfying or useful will die. The problem with not lynching is that people are selfish.

Without a reason to speak up, a lot of players won't. It's hard to gather up the puzzle pieces when they're all hidden away and silent, and if people don't have a reason to go try and fit things together they'll hoard their little cardboard pieces like Gollum and his ring.

Why we prefer people to vote.
1: Refusing to join in voting people is often accompanied by not trying to find scum, and kicking back as other people try to do the work. It's a tool, refusing to use it isn't a good sign.
2: Talk vs Action. You can say a lot or you can say a little, people are a lot more likely to rally behind the person who goes out and does stuff than the person who doesn't, which gives us even more information to work with.
3: Votelogs are a very helpful thing for figuring out where people's opinions change without scrolling through the entire thread to figure things out you were probably already sure of.
4: Refusing to make player related stances significantly cuts down on what we can look at for what you are, and for figuring out what other players are when you die.


Why we are annoyed by this Debate.
Because nothing ever comes from it. Maybe if people actually stuck by it when they played it would be less irritating, but they don't end the Day voting 'No Lynch'. It just takes up time and attention that would have been spent gathering information to explain to people why trying to gather information is important, and it is the same thing again and again.

Suggestion.
A few things I want to suggest for you if you really think the Day should end on a No Lynch.

1: Don't make a big deal of it early on. Saying "I don't think we should kill anyone today" or something similar like that at the start of the day is only going to detract from it. If someone is questioning why you aren't voting anyone at the start, claiming to be waiting for a good reason or considering who to vote for is a lot more acceptable.
2: Try to gather info, if you don't want to vote at all at least try to put out some reads on people. You don't have to vote in order to question people.
3: If you are willing to vote still, using the vote system to help incentivise people to answer your questions is an option. If you start asking pointed questions and have a vote attached, people may follow your vote in order to apply 'Pressure'. This is just more info for you to use later on, and having to convince people to get off a wagon can change the answers that are given.
4: Get a good idea of how you feel about the other players, who seems to be Town, who you aren't sure of, and anyone who you feel is not. Our brains are really good at feeding us feelings on things we haven't consciously noticed, so pay attention to that as well.
5: Most importantly, don't decide right away. The question of 'To lynch, or not to lynch' is not one that should be decided at the start of the Day. I'd suggest to start considering it about two thirds of the way through the Day, and bring up the option then if you don't see anyone that is worth lynching. Remember to follow 4 and 2 for this.
6: If you decide on something, don't cave because of pressure. If you change your mind about it, like if you find someone who seems really suspicious, then that's fine. But dropping it just because others don't like it only says that it wasn't very important to you to begin with. This applies to lynches, supporting people, or no lynches.
 
It's time to move from the meme vote onto a real one and I feel like pushing one of the new players into talking a bit more.

@MedievalParadox please do more than a confirmation post please.

[X] Null
[X] Lynch MedievalParadox
 
I personally believe that Day 1 lynches are necessary, but I can admit that there are times when there is a point to No Lynching. It is not, however, at the start of the Day, and it doesn't excuse people from scumhunting. And I can't respect an argument made for it when they abandon it at the slightest pressure.

No Lynch is a vote, it says your intentions and points out that it is an option. You can continue to search for someone to vote after hitting post on a big sign saying it, and if you find someone who is worth lynching you can switch it. The biggest problem we run into with No Lynch votes is that people just spend the rest of the day defending that until they fold and let it go. If you post a No Lynch and continue searching for scum and asking questions, there aren't any problems.

Also, I hope I made that post well enough to link to in the future.
 
Since the town name is already out, I may as well way in on what I judge as likely, and have judged as likely the whole time. Frankly, this post bumped you up a notch in my scum reads, but way I see it if the town is CPU characters, than scum is likely the human players.

It's also possible they are/there are buggy CPU players or some such.

But going by my role card I see no basis as to why you assume they are using cheat codes or whatever, which makes me read you as more likely tp be scum or at best third party...

Moving on for now.


He dropped it super early in a way that actively hurts town while refusing to use basic analysis as a defense prior to doing so. The most charitable read to his skills is he is informed scum flubbing an early attempt to position himself as proven town, doubling so with him doing things like casting shade on Pawn Lelouch pointing out that it doesn't actually confirm him.

It is, of course, possible he is just being an idiot, but if so that makes him a least-bad town lynch, assuming he is town but just being a moron.

If he is town he should be dishing his scum suspicions however weak right about now, not possibly robbing a strong power role like doc or cop the ability to confirm town status as likely without revealing power when we get a real train closer to the wire.

It's distinctly anti town play even if he is town.

CPUs are for sure town yeah, but not all human beings cheat. (NOT saying I am human ofc). anyway gonna be busy most of the day. I try to not say what I am early on.
 
also dunno if humans irl and in game are the same, nor have any humie info so whatevs, but I doubt all non ai would be bad
 
Concrete proof is kinda barely a thing day one. The first annoyance that Winged Cat immediately jumped to using one of the few pieces of vaguely concrete proof available. Thereby removing it from the playing field for someone who had an actually notable train on them later. Even if he is Town he just hurt us by ramming the eject button literally as soon as possible.
You know, I just figured out how he could have known the town faction name was CPU, and I'm facepalming that I didn't realize this:
  1. This is Mario Party, the non-human opponent's have always been called CPU
  2. Mario Party has almost never supported more than four players in a game, and most systems similarly don't support more players even in games that have more NPCs.
By that logic, the human faction must be small, and therefore is likely scum due to Mafia logic.
 
In probably my last display of effort for the night, I decided to go through Rikimaru's ouvre, which is a bit tricier than WC's, and see what comes up.

Post 1- Starts the lmbf wagon.
[X] Lynch LetMeBeFree
Just starting a wagon during the opening portion of the game. Not much to talk about here, except maybe that it's LMBF.

Post 2- LMBF joke

Or he knows the future, that his next game would be rolling a Jester. So he's gonna get his win con done!

Meh. Nothing here.

Post 3- Jester speculation


I don't recall a time they have ever actually been in a forum mafia game, since it's super easy to get yourself lynched, unless you are Andelevion in a cult game.

Just general Jester natter. Nothing important.

Post 4- Defends Lizard Knight.

Ehh, I think Lizard Knight is just wanting to go straight to arguing as much as possible which is useful just in case someone slips up. Not being aware of LMBF being a loose cannon is fine, and questioning wagons and stuff is fairly towny, or neutral. Also, if one has to defend a lynch vote then that can be used for later reasoning.

A good thing about this set up, is that I don't think there is gonna be a cult. Unless it's waluigi versus luigi or something :D (and don't say That's What A Cult Would Say!)

I find it kind of interesting that Riki would jump in to defend Lizard Knight from me- while I did say I found him rather suspicious, it's not like I voted him or put that much pressure on him. Yet he does a decently extended defense (ballpark 80 words), and this is super early in the game so I'm skeptical that he has a townread on him. It could just be an attempt to correct me, but it seems a little off.

Post 5- Talks about lmbf being a wildcard and too quiet

Wildcard history and they are usually too quiet. Though they almost gave my team the potential for maybe winning last game.

More anti-lmbf stuff. Etc. etc.

Post 6- Natter


Well, nice to have more discussion than usual on day one early on, night.

Meh.

Post 7- Immediately backs off lmbf without explaining why.

[X] Null

Pretty good reasoning actually.

This is... really weird. Riki has spent 3-4 posts out of his 7 arguing against lmbf, mocking lmbf, and arguing for a lynch, but given a rather basic explanation he completely flip-flops without any real explanation? After spending a lot of time, comparatively speaking, going after them, suddenly backing down seems curious. Kindof doubt it's a scumbuddy thing but it's... strange. It is probably worth noting that having lmbf around unchained could be very useful for scum, though why put him up for lynch in the first place then? Curious.

Post 8- Actually encourages lmbf to act against our agreement for them even if we all agree to said agreement.

I won't consider it scummy to do things different to what majority ask of you, since it's your night action. Assuming you have one of course.

This one kind of makes me go ??????

Like, when you have lmbf, who is at least kind of a loose cannon, and i suggest that they do what the majority asks of them, and then Riki suddenly says "even if we agree to that doing whatever you want, even though that has proven incredibly problematic in the past, is okay."

I'm not sure what Riki is trying to do here, but it feels like his suggestion could only cause collateral damage.

Post 9- Natter

Though you might have 10

Meh.

Post 10- Votes Winged Cat and attempts to direct the cop to investigate me

A flying feline
Of asure colouring fine
Receiving my vote

[X] Lynch Winged Cat

I don't have strong feelings about any lynch, but if Broken Base is going to take a comnanding position they're likely to be fine with investigatives checking them if WC turns up town if lynch succeeds.

No reason, explicitly says he doesn't just not care about this lynch, but any lynch. It's the 5th vote, which is a pretty good time for scum to slink in without looking too suspicious. And then he tries to direct the cop to go my way if Winged Cat flips town. And honestly, the way it's framed and just the whole idea if "if Winged Cat flips town, you'd better check X" kind of makes me feel like Riki knows or heavily suspects WC is going to flip town? Less certain because multiple scum groups and the like are basically inevitable, but... it bugs me. The directing cop at the very least is bad civ, as well as basically everything else about that post.

Post 11- A bunch of speculation including the weird "cheat codes" stuff, framed to get people to suspect WInged Cat

Okay so, these large posts are rather intense lol. I do think that informed scum is a nigh on certainty, judging that scum are a bunch of cheating dicks who want to win a mario party game for big money.

So expect them to have dat knowledge, and probably the night actions are based off cheats, then maybe the cheaters have a hacking ability and can delete computers or something?

If so, then Winged cat being scum dropping a town hint claim this early in the day means that he wants the lynch train to die down by the end of the day and flip to someone else's lynch. Most early trains change targets even if there was legitimate reason to lynch the initial train target. Also, I do remember the admittedly Bastard CW game where we almost Day One lynched the serial killer.

Attempting to increase the pressure on Winged Cat, and the whole cheat thing is still really weird.

BONUS ROUND


also dunno if humans irl and in game are the same, nor have any humie info so whatevs, but I doubt all non ai would be bad

ummmm

So aside from his last couple really strange posts, Riki's posts are divided into primarily discussing lmbf and Winged Cat, with a dose of natter and defending Lizard Knight on the side.

Some quick bullet points:

1. His lmbf feels a bit erratic, pushing lmbf in several posts but backing off immediately when given an explanation and providing no reasoning.
2. He then suggests that lmbf actively go against our consensus agreement even if we arrange to have the agreement, which I can't see benefiting town at all.
3. I like nothing about his Winged Cat vote post
4. Kind of find his Lizard Knight defense strange, though I'm not sure what it means.

Honestly I'm not sure what I was thinking about Riki's contributions because they're often lackluster or outright strange or problematic. He still is playing a bit different from his cult game and there's some really mixed messages in his postings but...

This is a good vote place.

[X] Lynch Rikimaru

Good post btw @Nictis.
 
CPUs are for sure town yeah, but not all human beings cheat. (NOT saying I am human ofc). anyway gonna be busy most of the day. I try to not say what I am early on.

also dunno if humans irl and in game are the same, nor have any humie info so whatevs, but I doubt all non ai would be bad

See, this kinda crap is exactly the kind of idea you shouldn't be voicing early. I neither know nor care at the moment where you are town. Saying 'but the obvious scum group might not be scum' because reasons early seems incredibly sus. Like, look. Maybe you think we're getting too fixated on the idea it's humans.

Then keep that in mind and look for possibilities. Keep an open mind. don't publicly shut your mind in a different direction. You keep going 'but not all humans are bad and obviously the actual scum are cheaters in the cheat code sense' for no clear reason, which heavily suggests you are scum human trying to position human as not proof you are scum to discredit accusations.

Moreover, you completely ignore the consistent framing of town info. Unsportsmanlike doesn't mean cheat codes. You can foul someone in a sport without invoking a godlike power to alter reality. That's unsportsmanlike. And you know why I disbelieve in humans that aren't scum?

Massive arenas and extravagant stages were created on the borders of the Mushroom Kingdom's territory in preparation for this world renowned event known as the Mario Party. This would be the 26th hosting of this sporting event and promised to be one of the most extravagant ones to date if nothing else. The participants had already been selected, the spectators had gathered to watch the game and the operators had prepared many things for both parties to challenge and enjoy themselves.

However, a threat on the integrity of the games was sent to the operators a week before the event's start. A warning that not all those that would be playing would be interested in the good sportsman nature of the game. The organizers frantically devised a solution into the fabric of the game itself that would hopefully improve the ratings. Each day during play the players would be allowed to observe each other and by majority vote eliminate who they believed was the least sportsman player ceasing their progression any further into the game and tarnishing their reputation. With actual stakes on the line in the form of reputation, ratings skyrocketed and the rewards for the victors became greater.

The OP is divided into two flavor segments. The first, here, speaks as if we are Mario Characters within the world of Mario being called to a sporting event. This is the perspective one might imagine a CPU player to have.

It had been a few years since the last Mario Party game was released a noticeably longer delay then normal, but that could easily be explained by the release of what will certainly be an amazing gaming technology, Full-Immersion VR. Nintendo with so many properties to choose from though oddly selected Mario Party 26 to be their first game to utilize the technology a choice most have found to be an odd one. Though when they revealed that the next game to be released was a Pokemon game most of the community became content with waiting, you and your friends were not content with waiting this was a brand new technology in gaming and even the friendly friendship breaker that is Mario Party was an amazing option. Gathering a number of your friends to play with you fall deep into the game selecting your characters and preparing for dominance.

Here's the second. Which is explicitly from a human player perspective. In which a person 'gathers a number of their friends' and prepares for 'dominance' with no interest in sporting behavior and viewing it as all just a game.

Town is living this. And values honor and blah. Scum is players playing to win at any cost as a group. A bunch of human players.

This is not an unclear OP, with the town rolecard.

You know, I just figured out how he could have known the town faction name was CPU, and I'm facepalming that I didn't realize this:
  1. This is Mario Party, the non-human opponent's have always been called CPU
  2. Mario Party has almost never supported more than four players in a game, and most systems similarly don't support more players even in games that have more NPCs.
By that logic, the human faction must be small, and therefore is likely scum due to Mafia logic.

Indeed, and a scum team of four plus maybe a serial killer or some such would make sense for player counts.
 
You know, I just figured out how he could have known the town faction name was CPU, and I'm facepalming that I didn't realize this:
  1. This is Mario Party, the non-human opponent's have always been called CPU
  2. Mario Party has almost never supported more than four players in a game, and most systems similarly don't support more players even in games that have more NPCs.
By that logic, the human faction must be small, and therefore is likely scum due to Mafia logic.

This is true, after all humans are the only ones who use cheats and exploits to win, Hell, there might even be a diversity of scum based on that, which is speculation but potential following logic.
 
Alright, I am beginning to understand the importance of a day 1 lynch now. Still, I think I will be waiting until at least tomorrow to vote someone up, since I probably won't be active more than 2-3 times a day.
 
In probably my last display of effort for the night, I decided to go through Rikimaru's ouvre, which is a bit tricier than WC's, and see what comes up.

Post 1- Starts the lmbf wagon.

Just starting a wagon during the opening portion of the game. Not much to talk about here, except maybe that it's LMBF.

Post 2- LMBF joke



Meh. Nothing here.

Post 3- Jester speculation




Just general Jester natter. Nothing important.

Post 4- Defends Lizard Knight.



I find it kind of interesting that Riki would jump in to defend Lizard Knight from me- while I did say I found him rather suspicious, it's not like I voted him or put that much pressure on him. Yet he does a decently extended defense (ballpark 80 words), and this is super early in the game so I'm skeptical that he has a townread on him. It could just be an attempt to correct me, but it seems a little off.

Post 5- Talks about lmbf being a wildcard and too quiet



More anti-lmbf stuff. Etc. etc.

Post 6- Natter




Meh.

Post 7- Immediately backs off lmbf without explaining why.



This is... really weird. Riki has spent 3-4 posts out of his 7 arguing against lmbf, mocking lmbf, and arguing for a lynch, but given a rather basic explanation he completely flip-flops without any real explanation? After spending a lot of time, comparatively speaking, going after them, suddenly backing down seems curious. Kindof doubt it's a scumbuddy thing but it's... strange. It is probably worth noting that having lmbf around unchained could be very useful for scum, though why put him up for lynch in the first place then? Curious.

Post 8- Actually encourages lmbf to act against our agreement for them even if we all agree to said agreement.



This one kind of makes me go ??????

Like, when you have lmbf, who is at least kind of a loose cannon, and i suggest that they do what the majority asks of them, and then Riki suddenly says "even if we agree to that doing whatever you want, even though that has proven incredibly problematic in the past, is okay."

I'm not sure what Riki is trying to do here, but it feels like his suggestion could only cause collateral damage.

Post 9- Natter



Meh.

Post 10- Votes Winged Cat and attempts to direct the cop to investigate me



No reason, explicitly says he doesn't just not care about this lynch, but any lynch. It's the 5th vote, which is a pretty good time for scum to slink in without looking too suspicious. And then he tries to direct the cop to go my way if Winged Cat flips town. And honestly, the way it's framed and just the whole idea if "if Winged Cat flips town, you'd better check X" kind of makes me feel like Riki knows or heavily suspects WC is going to flip town? Less certain because multiple scum groups and the like are basically inevitable, but... it bugs me. The directing cop at the very least is bad civ, as well as basically everything else about that post.

Post 11- A bunch of speculation including the weird "cheat codes" stuff, framed to get people to suspect WInged Cat



Attempting to increase the pressure on Winged Cat, and the whole cheat thing is still really weird.

BONUS ROUND




ummmm

So aside from his last couple really strange posts, Riki's posts are divided into primarily discussing lmbf and Winged Cat, with a dose of natter and defending Lizard Knight on the side.

Some quick bullet points:

1. His lmbf feels a bit erratic, pushing lmbf in several posts but backing off immediately when given an explanation and providing no reasoning.
2. He then suggests that lmbf actively go against our consensus agreement even if we arrange to have the agreement, which I can't see benefiting town at all.
3. I like nothing about his Winged Cat vote post
4. Kind of find his Lizard Knight defense strange, though I'm not sure what it means.

Honestly I'm not sure what I was thinking about Riki's contributions because they're often lackluster or outright strange or problematic. He still is playing a bit different from his cult game and there's some really mixed messages in his postings but...

This is a good vote place.

[X] Lynch Rikimaru

Good post btw @Nictis.

Lol. I immediately accepted LMBF's argument because when actually stated, I thought and was like "you know what? that's actually a totally legitimate thing to do as a survivor who knows that they are pointing a vigi who was told to kill someone I think is town into another person who is basically proven town who is probably gonna be protected by one of 3 protective roles"
I also said that going against majority of town's requests isn't something I would think is scum proof, because quite frankly, what the majority orders, is known to the scum team. That means that scum can plan around it and a certified loss from something happened surprisingly to scum, is made possible to survive by planning a cover story or explanations and stuff, or even having a headstart in self defense from accusations.

Now, I find it a bit amusing no one noticed by "he could have one power... or ten" though not massively surprised. It was me with a hint, one that is related to a meme about language.

I defended the newbie because I like defending newbies and had an explanation.

gtg. I am town. which s what anyone would say but whatevs. adios amigos 1010
 
@Broken Base I accept your apology, because you have tried to remain diplomatic, you recognize that we are both frustrated, and you have given me logic to respond to.

I do not see how the other can honestly claim that 4-5 votes does not constitute pressure. Yes, they cite that I made no analysis other than you before posting the town name & color, but as I will show below, I saw nothing else that warranted analysis.

I acknowledge Nictis's post abut the reasons for a D1 lynch, but I note Nictis seems confused as to why people wind up lynching even though they do not put up a strong defense of not lynching. The reason is not because they agree with his logic, but because Nictis et al lynch or pressure anyone who seriously objects because they object (justifying it as "they're playing anti-town whether or not they're scum", when they really aren't). In order to play the game past the first couple of days, anyone who objects must vote anyway. That is why there is no concession in logic but the votes happen anyway: bullying removes the need and inclination to engage in the logic. If you want people to start playing the way you want, the best response to objection is logic, as in that post, and to not claim people are playing anti-town (especially, to not wagontrain) just for objecting.

With that said...

Riki reacted. Any thoughts on his post?
Lizard Knight reacted. Any thoughts on his post?
I reacted. Any thoughts on my post?
Rem reacted. Any thoughts on their post?
Derp (arguably) reacted. Any thoughts on their post?

5 people isn't entirely unimpressive, and I'd be impressed if you had nothing to say about any of them.

I may be misreading, but I believe you would like analysis on these five people, explaining why I thought there was not yet enough to analyze? Then I shall analyze each post of these five between the beginning of the game and your vote on me (not inclusive). (Rem's sole in-game post so far being during this period suggests this may be what you meant.) Hopefully I have not missed any. Spoilers so this is less of a wall.

[X] Lynch LetMeBeFree

Initial memevote.

Or he knows the future, that his next game would be rolling a Jester. So he's gonna get his win con done!

Joke.

I don't recall a time they have ever actually been in a forum mafia game, since it's super easy to get yourself lynched, unless you are Andelevion in a cult game.

Observation, and a true one.

Ehh, I think Lizard Knight is just wanting to go straight to arguing as much as possible which is useful just in case someone slips up. Not being aware of LMBF being a loose cannon is fine, and questioning wagons and stuff is fairly towny, or neutral. Also, if one has to defend a lynch vote then that can be used for later reasoning.

A good thing about this set up, is that I don't think there is gonna be a cult. Unless it's waluigi versus luigi or something :D (and don't say That's What A Cult Would Say!)

Another observation. No insight to what Riki is.

Wildcard history and they are usually too quiet. Though they almost gave my team the potential for maybe winning last game.

Mere statement of fact.

Well, nice to have more discussion than usual on day one early on, night.

Another observation.

[X] Null

Pretty good reasoning actually.

In which he lets LMBF off the hook. I took this as the start of the end of the train upon LMBF.

I won't consider it scummy to do things different to what majority ask of you, since it's your night action. Assuming you have one of course.

Another observation w/no motive.

Though you might have 10

10...actions? That's the reading that makes the most sense given the context, and if so is clearly a joke.

Summary: nothing to comment upon.

-Wrings hands-
Lets do this, mein Freunde

That...
Is a horrid reason to lynch someone.
Town is town, even If they are a 'liability'
I get that this part Jest but this seems...a rather suspect and Unsportsman like reason to throw someone out of this here tournament.

Tempting people on a wagon Which has a rather Sandy base is Also more Then a little suspect Honestly.

Totally agree With you Nictis.
You are jokier Then last game I was inw its you, but last time you were maf.
Granted, previous games have little affect on the current one, but evidence is evidence.
To me this is and the anti-gang up is a possitive sign towards you.
(Butt...Lets vote on a player shall we? Even If the announcer is clearly shady business...)

Honestly?
I do not trust Notte
This first round has little evidence So we need to focus on evidence.
Creating a bandwagon Because someone made is suspicious to moi
[X] Lynch NotteBoy97

Pretty good intro post, but that could be scum or town. Ultimately tries applying D1 pressure, in a way that doesn't signal suspicion.

Reading back, Riki started the Bandwagon against letmebefree
...With zero reasoning
But yeah,
Currently there are three votes against LetMeBeFree (Rikimaru, Broken Base, NoltenBoy97)
One against Nictis (Terrabrand)
One against NoltenBoy97 (Lizard Knight Aka yours truely)
And...The announcer (...Nictis...)
We could all look up the tally but eh

Neutral statements of facts.

What's the motivation?
Discussion and a lack of sleep.
Lack of sleep is an excuse however and an excuse shows a weak argument.
So discussion
Maybe I was unclear in my words (scrap that I was definitely unclear)
But I wanted, above all, more discussion.

Why did I not change to Riki?
No deep reason, just did not cross my mind.
This is, again, a weak argument from me.
...ergh? I mostly vote on someone based on what they say. Your right the fact they said nothing is weird to me but NollteBoy just attracted more attention to me.

I did not think about the use of bandwagoning, my vault there.

As Riki has said, I had no clue that LMBF has been a loose cannon in the past.
I don't know the past of most players, to be honest. This is my second mafia game on a forum.

No clue what a cult is, would you (or someone else) kindly inform me?

I am mostly asking questions. I think discussion is important, it gives us more info.
We are on page 4 but more discussion is more information.
Maybe it is my inexperience but I do not see how bandwagoning gives us more information.
...but your right it does get the ball rolling and this is page 4.
But let's try to discuss more now the ball is rolling, as it is off more use in the long run.
That is my logic atleast, but it might be flawed.

Although I am curious Riki, why Lynch LMBF? Their wild card history or?

Asking for info, but again, just playing the game.

-after reading Terrabrands vote-
Oh...
Yeah
Suddenly I understand the mistrust/willingness to lynch of LMBF

"I agree with Terrabrand." This is not inherently suspicious.

Post, not vote.
I meant post, not vote.

Typo fix as best he can, since we're not allowed to edit posts.

Honestly LMBF has solid enough reasoning for me not to vote for them.
I am just going to take a Wait and see attitude With them.

Heyo @Cakestepid it has been a while. Jojo was my first game of mafia on SV and this is my second. Lets see what will happen this time.

Another post where I figured the LMBF wagon was over.

-shrug-
You seem reasonably aggresive.
Your aggresion had towards me had good reasoning behind it (Maybe even great). So I am fine With the aggresion towards me. A little pushing is needed in a game like this.

Thank you
And Unlike the post before it, I read it over before posting. I can type dumb things on impulse and With reason through before posting I can remove the dumber Comments.
As for the weirdness -shrug- I am kinda weird.
But as that is a weak argument, I think it is a mixture of:
>My horrid language skills
>Sleep lack
>My internal logic
>I am inexperienced
Not stellar arguments either, but all I have right now

I would be dissapointed If you did not keep an eye on me. I am acting weird and suspicious.

Fair.
I would Also rather give him a chance So I won't join the bandwagon.

I am...thinking about nulling my vote against NolteBoy, not sure yet.
My reasoning was weak but I still have lingering suspision against Nolte...
I think I'll Wait until Nolteboys reaction and Then decide towards nulling or not.

Self-defense, explaining his reasoning. Said reasoning checks out as plausible.

I think Cake meant "I am going to vote on them now, but I will change my mind If they give a good argument"
That is how I read it anyway.
Who hasn't spoken yet? We need to have heard Everyone voices to know how to act.

Also
I am PRETTY sure I was this weird last game
But ask @Cakestepid, @Ellf and others Who were in that game If I am acting on the Same level of odd.

He's worried about his own play. He also pokes for everyone to speak up. Again, this is stuff that town or scum would do equally at this point.

I kinda hope everyone has an unique role, but who knows.
Also while Toads are probally generic, the enemy races like Goomba probally have an ability.
However, as it is based off of Mario party where everyone has to be a separate character, I think everyone is a differant character.
There are 19 different players and I think that there are enough Mario characters to fill that 19
If that makes sense

I do not find theorycrafting about the game to be sus. I acknowledge that some have found it to be anti-town, but I find their reasoning to be based on false premises. I only mention it now to note why I did not find this post noteworthy; let us please not rekindle that debate.

So the short answer is
The lynch forces people to debate and show their hand atleast a little and based on that, assumptions can be formed.
From my first game I can Remember the first day being referanced. It tells you how other players act.
You can compare that to What happens in the night.
=====
So our current discussion has fallen flat. It seems like we have lost momentum. Lets DiScUsS Some more, shall we?

While I did semi-joke about a word in that last sentence (it might have been a scum signal), the rest of this is just statement of fact.

It tickles me that people think I am leaving a clever message.
You are giving me way to much credit here.

Fair point.
I have No reason to join any current bandwagon...
However I do think it is wise to keep Some pressure up Instead of going non vote...
But I know no one to vote for So Eh
[X] Null NotteBoy97

And backing out of any bandwagon for the moment.

Summary: LK is playing the game. This itself does not help determine if he is scum or town.

He's too dangerous if there's a cult. We should lynch him, just to be safe.

[x] Lynch Pawn Lelouch.

Joke vote.

Actually I think Riki has a point this is a good wagon.

[X] Lynch LetMeBeFree

Helping start the LMBF bandwagon.

@Nictis, any particular reason for the joke vote when you could vote a player, try to start a wagon, etc? Heck, we've got three players on the letmebefree wagon. Isn't it tempting?

And fanning it. If the bandwagon had not already fallen apart I might consider BB as Executor, but it had fallen apart before my first in-game post.

That said, note for below that BB immediately recognized Nictis's voke as a joke vote.

? Not sure what you mean. I'm currently on the main wagon, not sure how I could be more tempted, as it were.

Simple request for explanation.

"Sandy base"? Letmebefree is somebody that is an absolute wild card at best, and has used PRs incredibly suboptimally in the past, and I believe freely admits to this. I'm inclined to just lynch them straight out, but at the very least that fact warrants an early wagon and is better than any of the earlier candidates.

Even if you don't believe me or don't think this is a solid base for a wagon, an early wagon is a good way to give the game some momentum and overall get reactions. It's a nulltell at absolute best.

I'm confused as to why you didn't change your vote to Riki after you realized he started the wagon, and I don't even get why the wagon is suspicious to begin with. The only arguments you've provided is that it's weak on evidence (We're on Page 4. The game started a page ago. I'm not sure what you want?). In terms of Riki starting the wagon on letmebefree with zero reasoning, not only has LMBF not posted yet, but Riki's post was the 4th post since the game start. What evidence was there to analyze? Terra and I random voted. That is totally it.

Also I find it odd that you vote, out of the three of us, the player that actually provided reasoning for their vote, when your argument is about the lack of reasoning. That's just kind of weird.

Honestly I'm fine with Nictis at the moment, though I want to see more from him later, but I'm looking really askance at you right now, because this feels a lot like defending letmebefree from a wagon (and attempting to derail it) with incredibly strained reasoning, and I'm very unclear of exactly what the motivation is there.

Explanation and request for information. I rolled my eyes at "I'm inclined to just lynch them straight out" having been the victim of that before, even if I haven't deliberately played against my team's win condition. (I can see where that attitude comes from, but who is scum and who is not has nothing to do with prior games. Seriously, if players A, B, and C are going to push to lynch players D, E, and F purely based on prior games, those two sets of players should not be in the same game.)

That said, having seen scum on the same team argue in public like this before, I can't even cite this as solid evidence that BB and LK are not on the same team.

I think a Page 4 wagon is a bit different from a lynch vote, and think the wagon thing is variable, but I admit I didn't consider that Lizard Knight just didn't know letmebefree's trolly reputation. Sorry about that Lizard Knight.

The apology is admirable, but says nothing about scum vs. town.

(It's worth noting that I'm probably being a bit aggressive and i'm sorry about that if it upsets anyone or the like; I'm both doing a slightly different playstyle here, and my mood can be a bit... unstable.)



Overall, this... isn't a bad response? Like overall I still find the way you went about things kind of weird- it could indeed be due to a lack of sleep and similar factors but gotta note it- but discussion, while generic, isn't a terrible rationale for pushing against the wagon when you don't know lmbf's history and all that jazz.

Like, I can't give you too many notches for the post, but I feel slightly better; enough to not feel that uncomfortable with staying on the lmbf wagon now. Still keeping an eye on you, though.

More of the same.

I can sympathize with this reasoning, but with no disrespect intended, genuinely, I still find it a little hard to trust you given the overall context. If you end up claiming and are a PR (I'm not asking you to say if you are or not, this is purely hypothetical), would you be willing to let town direct your actions for the rest of the game? It would give me, at least, a lot of peace of mind and would really help me feel comfortable with an unvote.

Directs LK to be trustable, but scum often try to swing public direction to fill their needs.

That is a concern but honestly it's a balancing of two concerns at this point and the other one wins out for me. Honestly your willingness to do it goes leaps and bounds for me so even if town thinks it's a bad idea I'm willing to

[x] Null

I think I'll give a general thought or two. Riki's play is much different than last game. It's not necessarily a clear towntell but it's interesting and I'm keeping it in mind.

Honestly right now my main suspicions are kind of due to weirdness rather than scumminess- Lizard Knight for reasons already stated, and I'm a tad confused as to why Cake talked about being willing to give lmbf redemption and then voted for them. But it's not a huge thing.

But I want to wait for more people to chime in before committing to anything lynch-wise.

Backing off to neutral.

Fair enough but I'd prefer if Cake answered himself. ^_^

The cake issue is just like... a really mild thing that bugs me but I'd still rather plays provide their own answers without ones potentially given to them, you know?



I wouldn't if you gave the sort of response Nictis did.

I poked him about it, he poked me back; not incredibly aggressively, but seemingly trying to get feelers out and work through what he saw as an inconsistency on my end. (admittedly he thought it was one by mistake, but.) He didn't get defensive, he didn't really react in a suspicious way at all, and if anything was doing some weak, mild scumhunting. It's a strange vote, but he gave a response that didn't really make it worthy of a wagon imo.

BB says she wouldn't lynch Derp, but her focus on the response demonstrates she doesn't understand where Derp and I are coming from on this.

Even if we don't get defensive, Derp and I have found no way to do this kind of thing that does not garner suspicion. Our honest observations tend to come under suspicion for not being how certain other players view the game. Had Derp or I posted that joke vote instead of Nictis, a wagontrain would likely (based on past games) start forming in the immediate response posts to our joke vote, not even waiting for a response. Nictis, meanwhile, merely gets asked, and allowed the luxury of responding while under much less pressure. Though BB probably wouldn't start that wagontrain, at least.

The game is still enjoyable even with that disadvantage, which is why Derp and I still play.

(@Derpmind please correct me if I am wrong in the above, but I think you're in the same place I am here.)

All that said, this is just explanatory.

I can take a swing at it, though this is how I see it and may not be overall the typical way to frame it. ^_^;

The fact is that a Day 1 lynch provides information. A Day 1 lynch is actually rarely purely random; it's not like a player rolls an RNG and then we en masse lynch the player with the lucky number. We have less information than we do in future days, that's true, but we do have a degree of information from roughly two days of playing, and the lynch is decided based on that, and people making arguments about the ideal choice. And as a result, we can hold players accountable. How good were their arguments, especailly in retrospect? How was their behavior surrounding the lynch? Was it suspicious? How does this chance if the lynchee is town or scum? There is a decent amount of data there to mine and take a look at Day 2, and overall general behavior surrounding the lynch, after the flip, can give us players to focus on.

Now let's say that we no lynch Day 1. The only information that we have to go on is the scum night kill, but trying to speculate based off the scum night kill is a mess. It could be for an endless amount of reasons, and a lot of them aren't particularly alignment indicative. So, in essence, we go into Day 2 with barely more information than we went into Day 1 with.

There's also the fact that lynching Day 1 gives us the chance of hitting a scum or detrimental third party role, something that is absolutely possible. If we no lynch Day 1, that becomes totally impossible.

If anybody wants to toss more in, feel free.

100% about defending the practice of D1 lynches, 0% about this particular game. Nothing this-game-relevant to analyze.

I mean I don't want to get in a meta debate because I think it'll clutter the thread, but I'll "briefly" touch on these points.

Like... you don't give examples or actual data, which is fine I guess, but it kind of makes it hard to have a cogent response? Part of the issue is that each game is going to be its own variable. They all operate under very different circumstances- different playerbases, different set ups, different alignments for said players, etc. So really any independent examples aren't going to prove much because they're independent cases. You would probably need to take a sample of around 7-10 games, demonstrate that it was either a policy lynch or a lynch that yields "little data" (not convinced those two things are exclusive but) Though I'm not even sure how we're judging "little data". It produces literally no new analysis, and people have the exact same suspects as they did D1? The lynch for D2 is somehow not impacted? There are new suspects, but they are completely unrelated to D1? Like what are we talking about here? The analysis can't even really occur because you haven't properly defined terms.

Also apparently we do get data, only its by "unforced errors". So you're kinda moving the goalposts here because the above says absolutely nothing about lynches via pressure. And that is something that would be even harder to do an overall analysis of, and determine whether or not a lynch was "by pressure" or an "unforced error" (also an undefined term).

Also I'm not really sure how new players getting a little boost is relevant at all unless you assume newbie maf team.



I mean a weird random vote really isn't worthy of an insta-wagon anyway so

I mean pressure, sure, questioning, absolutely, not really an insta-wagon.

I have already replied to the parts of this about me. But for this analysis: this says nothing about what BB might be.

Sooo, ok. Everyone is just unvoting. That's not going to do. I'm going to try and get a wagon going here and build some pressure.

The lmbf wagon isn't TERRIBLE but I'm not too hot on it- they made a potential agreement and I think it's fair we at least give them a chance to go through with it. In addition, I really love competing wagons and seeing how people react to them. So I'm staying off that one.

Nictis is my most solid townread at this point so I can't join that one either.

Cake has been waffly on lmbf before joining their wagon and that's basically it (Their only post so far, granted). The other person on the wagon is Pawn who I'm fine with so far, so I'm pretty comfortable making another competing wagon.

[x] Lynch Cakestepid

Come on guys, you know cake is delicious!

Anyway going to try and actually give the game some air like I tried and failed to earlier.

BB just wants more info & pressure. Standard play for town or scum.

(Also I found Winged Cat's hop onto Nictis and really starting it as a wagon pretty opportunistic so that's another reason I'm "eh" on it)

ok gone for real now

BB apparently can't tell when I joke vote. Not a scumtell.

TBH I don't feel comfortable lynching somebody right off the bat just because they made a few mistakes in previous games out of what appears to be inexperience. I'm not willing to give new players carte blanche or anything, and it's not like going after suboptimal players is wrong strictly speaking, but you can't learn without making a few mistakes.

If he's seasoned and consistently makes bad or trollish moves that's another story entirely of course.

———

I'm curious as to whether this is a game where everybody has a unique role, or if we have a bunch of generic Toads or Goombas running around.

One post, not informative as to whether Rem is scum or not. Just some initial queries and positioning that any faction might back.

On the one hand, lynching someone based on previous games can be really rude. But on the other hand, it does fit the flavor of this game with how he was arguably "unsportsmanlike" the last two games. Still, I'd be inclined to give Letmebefree a third chance just to be fair about things.


Speaking of fairness, if I made a day-one post like that, I'd be immediately the number one lynch vote... :/

Again, one post. Quoted for truth, as noted in analysis of BB's reaction to it. Mostly only talks of prior games, and lessons learned from them. Not even putting pressure on someone, and again, the LMBF wagon had already fallen apart by the time I posted.

So, there you go. In each of the five cases, I really saw nothing worth posting an analysis of. That will continue to be the case until I do see something worth analyzing. This is a pattern of behavior I have demonstrated in prior games.
 
Your Lizard point makes sense so I'll concede it, it wasn't a major point.

Lol. I immediately accepted LMBF's argument because when actually stated, I thought and was like "you know what? that's actually a totally legitimate thing to do as a survivor who knows that they are pointing a vigi who was told to kill someone I think is town into another person who is basically proven town who is probably gonna be protected by one of 3 protective roles"

I'm not going to assert if it is or isn't; I don't really want to relitigate LMBF's play outside that I still consider them a loose cannon. I am going to assert that it still comes across as kind of strange for you to spend most of your early posts mocking or criticizing or voting LMBF, and the moment that they give a rationale, you immediately go "okay" with no elaboration.

Would you accept that as perfectly understandable from any other poster?

I also said that going against majority of town's requests isn't something I would think is scum proof, because quite frankly, what the majority orders, is known to the scum team. That means that scum can plan around it and a certified loss from something happened surprisingly to scum, is made possible to survive by planning a cover story or explanations and stuff, or even having a headstart in self defense from accusations.

It's not that this isn't an understandable criticism, but let's look at the other end of the coin. You can say "Oh hey, in some cases LMBF's behavior was kind of understandable" while still acknowledging the fact that they're something of a wild card/loose cannon- something that LMBF CALLS THEMSELVES.

And the fact is that when somebody has acted as a massive wild card and loose cannon in the past, there can be consequences for that if there is no control over their night actions; they could easily interfere with other players actions, pick destructive options, and so on. So some control is critical.

By you completely bypassing that control- you potentially screw with power rules that were expecting LMBF to go for target X, because it is what we agreed to. We get the exact same behavior we get with LMBF unchained, as it were. And when LMBF doesn't do what we agreed, we basically have to lynch them, because they broke our agreement and did whatever they wanted to do. Heck, that could result in them keeping their results secret (if they're an investigative role or even something like a roleblocker), because they don't want to be lynched! If you had completely rejected the idea of us giving LMBF suggestions, that would be one thing. You didn't. Instead you picked the option most destructive to the town.

Now this could be out of just not considering the other side and what it entailed, but that's basically the only good interpretation.

(Also you didn't even bother to talk about that pretty bad WInged Cat vote.)

Honestly, as you can see, I didn't really find your LMBF rationales convincing, you didn't explain your behavior around the Winged Cat wagon, and your... whatever those claims are, is kinda shaky.

But, I might be willing to change my vote. I have a challenge for you; outside Winged Cat, he's out of play, find somebody I'd want to lynch more. Just look at the game, see if there's anybody you think deserve my vote- you can put more than one if you want- and I'll look and see if I can make a stronger case than the one on you; which I think isn't weak at all, but doesn't have a solid smoking gun, such as they exist.

(Also I'm positive I saw Q look into the thread today and then say nothing I'm beginning to think that maybe that slot could use some pressure)

@Winged Cat- Thanks for accepting my apology. That wasn't necessarily what the point of that response was- it was kind of a argumentative rhetorical flourish, but thank you for indulging me, that's actually really useful.
 
Okay I'm here, I just got online, and I'm trying to call ch up on what I missed give me a moment
 
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