[X] Downgrade equipment significantly, equipping new Marines in Infiltrator Armour, an advanced form of Carapace Armour, along with hand weapons, significantly reducing the cost and even possibly enabling mass production of armour instead of requiring the Armoury to handcraft each suit.
[X] Reestablish 9th Company, forming Sternguard squads under a Hunter-Captain, employing Veterans and exotic rounds in long-ranged combat
[X] Maintain Black Templar organization, limiting the number of Scouts in training to the number of Battle Brothers deployed, but potentially having benefits in terms of survival rates due to additional training, but also meaning that whenever a Battle-Brother is killed in combat, it must be assumed his Initiate is as well.
[X] Permit Kaaram to preach the Songs of Flame, using the cult practices to bind the various disparate groups of the Imperium-on-Mallus together, but potentially impacting other cultural efforts in unknown ways.
The company must adapt to survive. Plus, fuck our lil traitor cadre. If we must tear the company in half to deal with them, so be it. Better than letting them fester in our belly trying to pretend nothing has changed.
By little traitor cadre, I assume Phrux you are referring to the subset of chaplains planning a coup?
A coup that would seemingly involve murdering most if not all our psychers, probably skewering our previous chapter master and probably going to war with the lizardmen and high elves unprepared because to paraphrase what it sounds like in my brain ''Tek Heresy is Afoot it bads, Witches Baaad, Xenoos baad, grunt grunt me Scared'' ?
I exaggerate somewhat unfairly, but that's what it usually reads as to an outsider like myself.
Just keep in mind it's most likely not all the chaplains and the dude leading them is currently preaching restraint given we haven't actually done anything beyond the pale like trying to bind deamons into things y'know?
A coup that would seemingly involve murdering most if not all our psychers, probably skewering our previous chapter master and probably going to war with the lizardmen and high elves unprepared because to paraphrase what it sounds like in my brain ''Tek Heresy is Afoot it bads, Witches Baaad, Xenoos baad, grunt grunt me Scared'' ?
I exaggerate somewhat unfairly, but that's what it usually reads as to an outsider like myself.
I think you're looking for a Star Trek thread. This is a 40K thread.
Star Trek is a noblebright materialist setting while 40K is a grimdark warp setting, and under the exaggeration, it sounds to me like you're sneering at 40K characters for not being noblebright materialists. I don't like this. Xenos are in fact bad in 40K, the Imperium is generally correct about that (the Imperium is bad too, obviously) and the Imperium isn't a dimwit caricature about this fact, it has degrees of toleration between Sanctioned Xenos and Xenos Horrificus. Warp, similarly.
So I do really want to explore the idea of adaptation. There's a 40k/RWBY story on SB which I've been enjoying where the author addressed this question:
Too many times it feels like authors try way too hard to make the Imperials nice. I mean, of course there are plenty of good men and women in the Imperium, plenty of noble generals, and actually competent and compassionate inquisitors, but its also a very xenophobic and superstitious culture. A world like Remnant, where wielding magic like powers, tolerated mutants (faunus) and an entire horde of daemonic monsters would not be a place Imperials would look favorably upon.
An example I would make is A Light In the Darkness. While I love that fic, I absolutely hate how the author seems completely unwilling to address how much semblances resemble psychic powers, which the common imperial solider, even a Cadian, would distrust and hate on principle. I get why they dont do it, as its very uncomfortable, but at the same time it cheapens the feel of the story, making it seem more like a warhammer au rather than real warhammer.
We shouldn't be afraid for things to get messy in these types of stories. Its avoiding the mess that causes problems.
There's stories where 40k people do adapt over time, they're usually incredibly uncomfortable in doing so, but they do adapt. As a couple of examples, Dawn of War 2 shows some Blood Angels chosing various actions and slowly sliding toward corruption. I've not actually played the game but I've watched various clips and there's lots of stuff about doctrine, internal politics, ends and means, that sort of thing. Similarly, the Soul Drinkers or the Astral Claws both adapted to their circumstances, SD dealt with a slowly encroaching mutative contagion, and adapted their doctrines and so on over time, while AC adapted mostly on doctrine due to resource problems and similar.
In this quest I know there's going to be some adaptation, indeed, the previous and the next set of choices are about changes to normal policy, how you'll adapt over time, how you'll treat various people etc. I'm fine with this, but I refuse to not depict things accurately. As noted in the middle paragraph above, lots of people really fail present the Imperium accurately. I recall and old Mass Effect crossover for example where at the end the Space Marine Captain married Samara, a xenos woman from a parasitic species in the setting. I get that authors might jjust say 'wouldnt it be cool if there was a space marine in this setting and he was punching stuff and so on' and yes sure that's cool, but it would also lead to that marine smashing his way through the 'friendly' people too.
To move onto the 'traitors' point then, the Reclusiam is the internal affairs, the counselling service, the priesthood etc of the Marines. They are the ones who says if someone is a traitor or not. To any Imperial, the idea that the Reclusiam, not the Librarium for example, were the traitors, would be seen as farcical. Going back to the first point, its a matter of perspective. Think about a police show or something, IA are usually depicted as the bad guys, they're pushing in and making trouble for the 'good' police. This ignores that IA are designed to do that, their job is to watch the watchers. The Reclusiam are a conservative instituion, they're doing what they see as their job.
I don't like this. Xenos are in fact bad in 40K, the Imperium is generally correct about that (the Imperium is bad too, obviously) and the Imperium isn't a dimwit caricature about this fact, it has degrees of toleration between Sanctioned Xenos and Xenos Horrificus. Warp, similarly.
I think the problem is this is memed up too much. The whole grimdark/grimderp/grimdank thing like the existance of the dark eldar or whatever as a society means that people don't tend to talk about the basic 'street' level stuff. The setting requires that there be conflict. I think this is fine, and it tends ot be justified inthe setting too. In modern Islam for example there's no reason to do certain things that were specific to the times and condition of 8th century Arabia, but they're still done because of tradition. The Imperium generally benefits from xenophobia, it does, to a degree, insulate the Imperium from outside influence, it keeps people scared, it keeps them obedient. "Obey me or the Xenos will eat you" is a powerful argument when Tyranids exist.
But yes, I do want to present a realistic view of things. The Reclusiam are very concerned, rightly so. We might know that spontanous psychic manifestation is actually just sort of how magic works sometimes in WFB, but they don't. THey're massively concerned this is the start of an epidemic of mutation and witchery.
So not necessarily. The Black Templars might not use psykers but the Lions do. They recognise that they need to understand the world around them, they're not just sticking their fingers in their ears and closing their eyes so they can't see the bad things. They're ok with the study of stuff, they're less ok with the more in depth study. For example, they might want to study dwarf runes so understand what they do, but they wouldnt want to reacreate them necessarily.
You've also got to get that these are professionals of great experience. Natohk will have centuries of experience being a Marine and Chaplain, I'm sure, for example, the Chaplains do actually have proper training, it's not just 'hey make sure you kill anything that looks weird'. They would presumably have the equivalent of multiple doctorates in psycology, sociology etc. Their job after all is to integrate and examine recruits and stuff, that does require expertise.
As for killing psykers, again not necessarily. They might take away certain artefacts, they might put a stop or destroy certain projects, but if the Librarians aren't corrupt or haven't done anything too extreme (for example the red line of summoning daemons), then they're relatively safe. The Chaplains might say 'no more experiments allowed, turn off the warpstone making machine' etc, but they do acknoledge the utility of psychic stuff. Similarly, on abhumans, unless all the daemons and xenos are dealt with, or the abhumans are attacking, they'd deal with other stuff first. They might push for a more aggressive stance toward the dwarves or elves or something, but if there's a choice between killing orks and killing elves, they'll go for the orks first in most cases.
Also, I'll close the vote tomorrow probably. The main disagreement so far is between whether to downgrade to MkIII (actually mk5 I got the mk wrong) or Carapace armour. If anyone feels strongly about this feel free to note various points.
@Exmorri Mate, I get that your joking but if I thought that was objectively their opinion I wouldn't say ''it comes across this way''.
They have legitimate reasons to fear even if their reactions tend to be overblown.
I would even go so far as to say they had a fairly moderate response inside our chapter.
I'd say I was sneering yes, somewhat unbecoming of me I admit.
That said no, Xenos are not universally bad by any stretch of the imagination, Exodite Eldar and the Farsight enclaves and many minor Xenos enclaves seem full of genuinely decent people. Hell, the Diasporex and Interex were large civilizations mixing humans and Xenos were functional things until the Imperium got involved.
Even the Orks were once capable of diplomacy before their brains shrunk on them.
Besides all that as far as I can tell the attacks humanity suffered were mostly not random. I think Humanity loosely could be seen as having earned most of the hate it got going into the age of strife for unleashing the Men Of Iron on the galaxy, the response was disproportionate sure, but when are things not in 40k?
My view that I do not think is based on wildly different sources than your own is that the imperium is generally genuinely wrong and overly harmful in the current era of 40k (although not as much as say the Necrons are) and the 30K imperium is somewhat more sympathetic in my eyes. Although even then they weren't the best of what they could be.
Nonetheless, it is a very interesting faction and a worthy mental challenge (of adaptation, for me)because of that.
Also, I am a fairly optimistic materialist, that just sort of comes with me wherever I go.
It is in fact possible to appreciate a work without having much love for the protagonist faction which hogs its creator's limelight.
Additionally, this is a Warhammer Fantasy and 40K thread, I came for the fantasy because there aren't too many quests for it on this site.
I still have an immense fondness for the natives of Mallus.
Is it wrong for me to stick around to see what grail knights or vampires or hordes of reawakened high elven dragons might do to space imperials?
I am not a very big Star Trek fan, I find the rubber foreheaded ''aliens'' of that setting very hard to take remotely seriously.
It suffers from believability problems that are silly even if they do run counter to 40k, neither are anywhere near my favorite settings but I find very interesting stuff in both.
(Note I wrote most of this before fractious day responded, the response is appreciated but I don't want to not post this at this point.
forgot to address this but yea this is a
Perfectly reasonable reason to not be posting, people are indeed going to be busy, but thanks for letting m know
Yes, but to briefly address this, I think we'd also have to say that The Imperium's general policy that aliens are bad is a historically learned thing. There's some indication in the Tactica Inperialis and similar sources that they don't actually know there's different types of elder for example, they just assume slaving dark elder and enigmatic occasionally hostile craftworlders are the same, and treat them accordingly. Similarly, the Tau also have a hostile, subversive policy, doesn't matter Id they're initially friendly really.
There's also the general 'history' that formerly allied xenos attacked the human state during the Age of Strife, so it becomes a sort of cultural trope really.
Too many 40k quests have voters insert their own morality in their votes.
[X] Continue to arm and armour Space Marines with their standard equipment, requiring extensive work and labour from various sources, as well as resources. [X] Reestablish 9th Company, forming Sternguard squads under a Hunter-Captain, employing Veterans and exotic rounds in long-ranged combat [X] Return to standard organisation of the 10th Company, with Veteran Sergeants training squads of 10 Scouts each. [X] Do not permit the worship of the Pyro-Cults to spread, potentially alienating the 3rd Company.
Chapters have their own cults that are contrary to what the Ecclesiarchy preaches and they get away with it by not spreading it to other humans. There needs to be a return to some orthodoxy with how radical past votes were.
@Gunman My apologies, I do not think I understand your argument.
I think it is that voters should separate their morals from themselves, I'm not sure how that could be done perfectly though?
Is it meant to apply to me because I'm not sure I believe in a fixed morality at all beyond the most basic precepts of utilitarianism?
I also have been trying to vote within what I see as possible for the characters we are dealing with. Does that count as only letting my ethics guide me when I restrict that to what I imagine an imperial could be persuaded to follow?
Also, I'm not sure the scout organization is radical or unorthodox at all, are not the black templars a much older more conservative chapter than us in many ways where it came from?
[X] Permit Kaaram to preach the Songs of Flame, using the cult practices to bind the various disparate groups of the Imperium-on-Mallus together, but potentially impacting other cultural efforts in unknown ways
[X] Maintain Black Templar organization, limiting the number of Scouts in training to the number of Battle Brothers deployed, but potentially having benefits in terms of survival rates due to additional training, but also meaning that whenever a Battle-Brother is killed in combat, it must be assumed his Initiate is as well.
[X] Utilise MkIII Armour, designed during the Horus Heresy as a set quicker to produce to meet the conflict's requirements, but only half as effective as other Marks of Power Armour. Equip new Marines with lesser equipment, for instance only combat knives and bolt pistols.
[X] Downgrade equipment significantly, equipping new Marines in Infiltrator Armour, an advanced form of Carapace Armour, along with hand weapons, significantly reducing the cost and even possibly enabling mass production of armour instead of requiring the Armoury to handcraft each suit.
[X] Continue to arm and armour Space Marines with their standard equipment, requiring extensive work and labour from various sources, as well as resources.
I'm going to adjudicate the armour tie as the moderate downgrade to Mk5 due to Gunman's points on conservatism. Useful to have voting reasoning for this purpose. Next chapter up shortly.
Scheduled vote count started by FractiousDay on Mar 29, 2022 at 2:55 PM, finished with 30 posts and 6 votes.
7
[X] Reestablish 9th Company, forming Sternguard squads under a Hunter-Captain, employing Veterans and exotic rounds in long-ranged combat
[X] Permit Kaaram to preach the Songs of Flame, using the cult practices to bind the various disparate groups of the Imperium-on-Mallus together, but potentially impacting other cultural efforts in unknown ways
[X] Maintain Black Templar organization, limiting the number of Scouts in training to the number of Battle Brothers deployed, but potentially having benefits in terms of survival rates due to additional training, but also meaning that whenever a Battle-Brother is killed in combat, it must be assumed his Initiate is as well.
[X] Utilise MkIII Armour, designed during the Horus Heresy as a set quicker to produce to meet the conflict's requirements, but only half as effective as other Marks of Power Armour. Equip new Marines with lesser equipment, for instance only combat knives and bolt pistols.
[X] Downgrade equipment significantly, equipping new Marines in Infiltrator Armour, an advanced form of Carapace Armour, along with hand weapons, significantly reducing the cost and even possibly enabling mass production of armour instead of requiring the Armoury to handcraft each suit.
[X] Continue to arm and armour Space Marines with their standard equipment, requiring extensive work and labour from various sources, as well as resources.
Note, armour choice tied at 2-2-1, so I've adjudicated this to Mk5 armour (I got the Marks wrong, Mk3 is Great Crusade 'Iron' armour.
[X] Reestablish 9th Company, forming Sternguard squads under a Hunter-Captain, employing Veterans and exotic rounds in long-ranged combat
[X] Permit Kaaram to preach the Songs of Flame, using the cult practices to bind the various disparate groups of the Imperium-on-Mallus together, but potentially impacting other cultural efforts in unknown ways
[X] Maintain Black Templar organization, limiting the number of Scouts in training to the number of Battle Brothers deployed, but potentially having benefits in terms of survival rates due to additional training, but also meaning that whenever a Battle-Brother is killed in combat, it must be assumed his Initiate is as well.
[X] Utilise MkIII Armour, designed during the Horus Heresy as a set quicker to produce to meet the conflict's requirements, but only half as effective as other Marks of Power Armour. Equip new Marines with lesser equipment, for instance only combat knives and bolt pistols.
Internal matters attended to, Black Nassor held conference with the High Deathspeaker, Natohk, to discuss the wider Imperium-on-Mallus.
"The heart of humanity is unity." Naothk said as the pair knelt before an idol. "Unity of purpose, unity of hatred, unity of obedience. Yet, while we have invited others during our flight from Imperial space, and they serve their purpose well, it may not always be so. If it takes us a hundred years or a thousand, we will one day return to the Imperium. If we face no censure, all the better, but for centuries the Inquisition has pursued us, and I have no doubt they will do so in the future as well. We will be at war with our brothers, whether a war of knives and shadow or one of macrocannons and chainswords, it matters little."
"What do you propose?" Nassor asked.
"Legally, Astartes worlds are outside Administratum jurisdiction, we are tithed nothing, and a Chapter Master is de-facto the Imperial Governor of any world he rules. We serve the Emperor, we protect the Imperium. The Emperor decreed as such, and subsequently Roboute Guilliman enshrined our function. Formally, the High Lords of Terra direct the Astartes, delegating the Emperor's will, yet they permitted the Inquisition's predations for years. We can swear no allegiance to a master which seeks out death, we are warriors, not martyrs. Even if it were not so, we abandoned our duty to the Adeptus Valerii, and our oaths of brotherhood with the Emperor's Spears and the Star Scorpions. We were forced to do so, but the end result is the same. Unless all works in our favour, we risk being declared renegades when we return to the Imperium."
Chaplains were trained in logic and rhetoric just as much as they were in psychology and divinity, and while Nassor had only undertaken some training in the Reclusiam before he was reassigned to tactical command, he retained enough to critique Natohk's argument, "Very well," he said, "while I admit there are weakness in the argument, let us proceed with it, you would move that we somehow subvert those allies we brought with us in our flight?"
Indeed, the argument was plain enough, Natohk spoke of unity, and it seemed clear to Nassor that there were two clear paths ahead. If, in a hundred years, the Celestial Lions returned to the Imperium, releasing, for example, the Missonia Galaxia operatives such as Confessor Hermina or her Soroitas bodyguard back into the Ministorum, after the operatives were debriefed, it would become clear that the Celestial Lions had violated various precepts, and a punishment and sanction would inevitably follow.
Comparably, Nassor could almost see Natohk's plan. Instead of the Adeptus Soroitas, the Lions would be accompanied merely by exceptional warrior-women, sworn to the same vows as the Sisters of Battle, yet under the Lion's command. Instead of regiments of Imperial Guard raised from the Mallusian natives, instead the Lions would raise hosts of Chapter-Serfs, armed in the same manner and trained to the same standard as Guardsmen.
Though Astartes were theoretically forbidden from commanding mortals in battle or seizing planets to rule, in practice it occurred occasionally, whether as necessity or as inevitability. The Ultramarines had the rule over the Realm of Ultramar, and though other organisations were present, in truth it was the Ultramarines, through their serfs, successor Chapters, or merely though ancient subversion of Imperial forces, that were the masters there.
Furthermore, Natohk's plan would likely simplify the administration of Mallus significantly. A Serf-Administratum could be established, a Serf-Arbites, a Serf-Ministorum, and so on. It would bind together the disparate groups and cultures, such as the mix of serfs and navy crews among the crashed fleet, and bind together the Imperium-on-Mallus more effectively than they might if they simply left various organisations to diverge in focus and compete for resources over time.
As Master of the Watch Nassor had been considering such matters already. It was given to him to be responsible for the intelligence networks and information gathering mechanisms of the Chapter, and he knew much of the work would fall to him and his subordinates.
It was more than a matter of jurisdiction and authority. The Ministorum might be moderately more effective than a serf equivalent in the immediate term, but the key personnel would die off over time, they were only mortal after all, and their replacements would have only the teachings of the first ones to work with. The efficiency of such an organisation would reach parity with any serf equivalent in time, and so the question became one of culture. If the Ministorum elements, perhaps some future system of preachers all over Mallus, found out about certain realities of the Celestial Lions' history, would they stir up rebellion? Perhaps, perhaps not. But it bore thinking about. Similarly, if they produced several regiments of Imperial Guard, some future Lord General might have legitimate and legal cause to rebel if he disagreed with the Chapter's policies. Comparably, a Serf would never consider such a thing.
The Missonia, the remnants of the Macharian Guardsmen, the fleet crew and personnel, the Mechanicum and the Knights. The later two would be excluded, the Mechanicum being too insular to need to worry about, the Knights being too few to cause any sort of trouble, but the rest Nassor would consider. The Astropaths and Navigators too would be excluded, though there were few enough of them, most of them having been sedated since the landing due to their vulnerability to Mallus' conditions.
[ ] Establish a policy of steady subversion of Imperium organisations, attempting to bring their expertise and function within the organisation of the Lions' existing Chapter-Serfs, mitigating future dangers of rebellion.
[ ] Retain the existing organisation of the Imperium-on-Mallus, funding the other Imperium groups, excepting the Mechanicum and Knights and permitting their organisational independence.
While the Deathspeaker and his deputy plotted, Tuthmes Skytalon examined the hololith in the Strategium, Hath-Horeb beside him as the Chief Librarian briefed his Chapter Master. Weather patterns swirled and different beams of light denoted various sites of interest.
"-the migrations here," Hath-Horeb touched a dataslate, sending a chime and flash to the hololith, "here, and here, are heading west into the safety of the mountains. Many appear to have gathered in a mining settlement of the Dwarves in the north, while others have fled to Copher or Lashiek, then north away to the Bordern Princedoms, Estalia, or Tilea. The attack of Settra came at an inopportune time, when we'd already weakened Araby. It will recover, in time, but for the moment much of the countryside has been devastated, and an ecological diaster will ensue following the desertification of the storm."
"What of the direct impacts?" Tuthmes asked.
"Mutation, daemonic activity, psychic manifestation and other common effects will significantly increase over the next few years, and will have to be monitored. Happily, the Arabyans maintain existing cultural traditions to monitor these themselves, and I do not anticipate significant issues. However, we're likely to experience a period of peace for the next decade at least. That, combined with the impacts of our arrival, brings certain opportunities."
Tuthmes nodded, "I've read your proposals, do any of the recent events change them?"
"Not significantly, in truth, I had compiled most of the scenarios when we were still in Warp-transit. They would have been applicable on any planet we arrived on. In short, Astartes recruitment operates between two extremes, firstly the superior bureaucratic organisation and health outcomes of Civilised Worlds, secondly, the necessary cultural touchstones of Feral and Feudal Worlds, such as common and intense violence, as well as independence and pride. The tribes of the jungle might be classified as Feral Worlders, they lack architectural technology and metalworking, but maintain a moderate level of communal violence appropriate for recruitment, the Arabyans are more civilised, but some demonstrate the necessary requirements, but in the Norscans, so far, we've found the best bloodstock."
"Yes Thalis has noted that the Norscan tithe was of unusually high quality. 'Almost abhumans', he said."
"Abhumanity is a social condition, in the broadest term. They can interbreed with other humans, and produce fertile offspring, under most measures they're human. Statistically unusual humans, more resistant to mutation, more physically powerful yes, but still human. It's not unusual to find such populations near areas of increased Warp activity, Cadia for example has statistically significantly more warp-resistant humans than other worlds. It's a matter of evolution, as well as genetic modification."
"Could we implant the actual abhuman strains on this world with geneseed?" Tuthmes idly wondered, he did not think it would be wise or actually possible, but he was curious.
"Yes, but just like with an Ogryn aspirant, the Emperor's masterpiece was never designed for such a purpose."
Tuthmes waved the matter aside and Hath-Horeb continued, "Returning to the matter at hand, there are essentially three paths before us, the first, to encourage the destruction of civilisation in Araby and elsewhere, destroy remaining infrastructure and devolve the population to a more primitive standard of living. This would provide a greater quality of applicants but significantly reduce our input of materials and populations, this is my least recommended option, though some in the Reclusiam favour it. Second, to rebuild Araby, but for there and in future conquests, to maintain feudal levels of civilisation and social organisation. This is the median option, the peoples of Mallus would be tested constantly against relatively low level conflicts, against Orkoid or mutant forces, while we could periodically descend to reap a tithe. Lastly, and the option I recommend, that we elevate the populations, we increase their numbers, technologies, security, and other matters to raise them over time to the levels of a Civilised World, we push back the frontiers, eliminate strongholds of predation. This way over time we'd receive significantly greater tribute, but a generally lower quality of Aspirants. There are dangerous areas on this world, almost to the level of Zone Mortalis, notably the Mountains of Mourne and the Dark Lands, and potentially we could use these areas as Aspirant training fields, but I do wish to note the inherently decreased quality of Aspirants we'd receive from more civilised populations."
Tuthmes nodded, "I understand, your report was clear. The lineage of the Imperial Fists is unusual when compared to most Chapters I feel, we recruit from Hive Worlds, not primarily from Feral Worlds like the Blood Angels or the Space Wolves. Still, even the Ultramarines seem to have suitable bloodstock from their own holdings."
[ ] Pursue a policy of cultural and social degeneration, aiming to reduce the population of Mallus to that of a Feral World over time.
[ ] Do not pursue an active policy, instead merely preserving the currently largely Feudal organisation of Mallusian societies.
[ ] Pursue a policy of uplift, developing Araby, Norsca, the Southlands, and other areas to increase their technological level and populations.
And beneath, deep in the bowels of the Fortress-Monastery, grim darkness and blinding light clashed.
"If you have released the others, you cannot compel me to remain here. I do so out of respect for my brothers, not out of obedience to you."
The many-voice echoed in chorus around the chamber as Black Nassor regarded the former Chapter Master. Each of the Captains had now observed him, spoken to him, and to each he had made different remarks. To Hath-Horeb he was enigmatic, to Vularakh he was wise.
To Nassor, he was irritating.
It was a strategy, that much was obvious to the Captain, it was a means to inspire Nassor to greater feats of duty, a niggling annoyance to keep him on his toes, to ensure he served properly as Master of the Watch.
Amra had been surveilling the whole mountain it seemed, even when Nassor had ordered lights be extinguished in certain sectors, knowing the former Chapter Master could somehow perceive anything touched by light in a certain radius. He had some telepathic ability, newly manifest, which enabled him to discern thoughts by looking into another's eyes, fixing a hypnotic gaze upon them. That had led to Amra's visitors starting to wear their helmets, but that only created more light due to the various holographic displays within the helmet autosenses.
It was a tricky problem, but Nassor knew that was Amra's goal. He had struck against their defences and shattered them, then retreated without causing actual damage, so that the walls of the Chapter might be built anew, taller and stronger than before.
To stop his senses, the Armoury had proposed certain exotic reflectors and force fields, to stop his telepathy, Nassor had established a system of message-bearers, serfs were chosen, blindfolded and send to convey simple messages without wider context, their minds carrying nothing of consequence that might cause weaknesses to emerge in the procedure.
It was grating to Nassor, but he knew it was strategy. Amra wished to improve the Chapter, yet also demonstrate his loyalty.
"I have been chosen, Nassor." Amra had told him once, "I have knelt before the Golden Throne, seen the tides of fire rolling down from the Gate Beyond. He has made me His champion. Your suspicion is warranted, but I have my own duty to fulfil. Consider that well."
The former Chapter Master remained in the deepest cell of Atakora. The 3rd had been freed from their bondage, the arms and armour restored, a new fire in their eyes, easily bearing the suspicion of the rest of the Chapter, but now thoughts turned to Amra.
Tuthmes was uncertain in his new rank, aware of the strange sensation, the clarion of triumph, each of them felt when they visited Amra. They could feel it with every beat of their hearts, some deep-seated urge to follow their lord, to go into battle at his side and sweep away all the Emperor's enemies. Many of the Chapter had received visions in deep meditation and the Reclusiarch had administered the rituals of the Emperor Oracular, seeing meaning in the dreams.
Hath-Horeb and Natohk's test were clear, and yet impossible. The Chief Librarian and the High Deathspeaker had administered every trial they were able to, questioning Amra repeatedly, analysing his form with measures both mundane and mystical. He was changed, that much was clear to everyone, he had stepped into the Warp and become something else, yet he retained the soul of a human. It should not be possible, yet it was, Amra had absorbed and now seemed to exude Empyreal energies like the Neverborn, yet while his body was altered, his flesh seemingly dense and transparent at the same time, he was still human at heart.
The Lion's warnings were dire, and none in the Chapter wished to test them. If the Emperor had truly given Amra a task they would see it done. It seemed also that if Amra were truly a daemon in disguise, or simply had an ulterior motive, he would have acted on it before. Yet, If it were thus, they had no practical way of containing the former Chapter Master yet.
In the end Tuthmes meditated on the matter, staying in seclusion for a full week. He burned incense, fasted and flagellated himself as he poured over the Emperor's Tarot. The same cards came again and again, the Despoiler inverted, the mark of a foe of Chaos, the Emperor's Throne above the Sword, the authority and weapon of a champion, and once again, over and over, last each time Tuthmes shuffled the cards, the Space Marine.
In the end Tuthmes made his decision.
[ ] Amra is released and returns as Chapter Master, his centuries of skill guiding the Chapter again. Amra will require an expensive project to construct a suit to hide his altered form, due to the alarm it may arouse in various parties such as the Inquisition, should such individuals appear. In the mean time, Amra, once a formidable combatant, has been elevated, able to manifest various abilities.
[ ] Amra is refused, his prison sealed with what final wards and gaoler-rites the Chapter is able to, requiring an immediate and expensive project to construct the bindings.
3 Choices, pick 1 for each. Again I suggest just copying and pasting votes, but you can vote in plan format if you like.
[ ] Establish a policy of steady subversion of Imperium organisations, attempting to bring their expertise and function within the organisation of the Lions' existing Chapter-Serfs, mitigating future dangers of rebellion.
[ ] Retain the existing organisation of the Imperium-on-Mallus, funding the other Imperium groups, excepting the Mechanicum and Knights and permitting their organisational independence.
[ ] Pursue a policy of cultural and social degeneration, aiming to reduce the population of Mallus to that of a Feral World over time.
[ ] Do not pursue an active policy, instead merely preserving the currently largely Feudal organisation of Mallusian societies.
[ ] Pursue a policy of uplift, developing Araby, Norsca, the Southlands, and other areas to increase their technological level and populations.
[ ] Amra is released and returns as Chapter Master, his centuries of skill guiding the Chapter again. Amra will require an expensive project to construct a suit to hide his altered form, due to the alarm it may arouse in various parties such as the Inquisition, should such individuals appear. In the mean time, Amra, once a formidable combatant, has been elevated, able to manifest various abilities.
[ ] Amra is refused, his prison sealed with what final wards and gaoler-rites the Chapter is able to, requiring an immediate and expensive project to construct the bindings.
Questions welcome, clarifications possible. Keep in mind the first two options are policies, not immediate actions. They will shape the narrative written and the actions offered over time.
Those are some hard hard choices, Is there no way we might merely aim for a partial subversion for say an adminstratum or some such? I suspect the lions would consider such too unsafe but it seems worth asking.
Ditto with the uplift, why not govern some regions as to inculcate hardiness and others for the sake of numbers?
Unless this is what the middle option is meant to indicate, with say uplifting Araby or the empire, Cathay, etc but not uplifting most of the Southlands or Norsca, if they advance on their own not stopping them but not helping them with such either?
I think failing to release Amra is ultimately likely to be failing to respect the God Emperor's of Mankinds will and thus I don't think I would vote for that but I'd love to hear from others before deciding.
[X] Establish a policy of steady subversion of Imperium organisations, attempting to bring their expertise and function within the organisation of the Lions' existing Chapter-Serfs, mitigating future dangers of rebellion.
[X] Pursue a policy of uplift, developing Araby, Norsca, the Southlands, and other areas to increase their technological level and populations.
[X] Amra is released and returns as Chapter Master, his centuries of skill guiding the Chapter again. Amra will require an expensive project to construct a suit to hide his altered form, due to the alarm it may arouse in various parties such as the Inquisition, should such individuals appear. In the mean time, Amra, once a formidable combatant, has been elevated, able to manifest various abilities.
[X] Retain the existing organisation of the Imperium-on-Mallus, funding the other Imperium groups, excepting the Mechanicum and Knights and permitting their organisational independence.
This is the one I feel most strongly about. Independent Administratum and other branches are the 'correct' thing for the Imperium to have, united by faith and culture rather than organizational control. When there's an inevitable inspection of what we did here, we can plead necessity for the early commandeering, and say we restored proper order of things once the emergency was over and peace was restored. (And we had enough mortal subjects to be worth administering. ) Saying "technically they're all serfs" is going to result in a bunch of doubt and scrutiny too, I expect.
Organisational independence also means that the local knowledge can be used more effectively when an Arabyan SME gets to deal with more understanding human bosses, rather than some trigger-happy nine-foot offworld abhuman being in charge of everything. I might want to spin off even more parts than our existing organisation, but I suppose that can come in the future.
[X] Pursue a policy of uplift, developing Araby, Norsca, the Southlands, and other areas to increase their technological level and populations.
This is going to be useful for getting back to space and the rest of the Imperium eventually, as well as restoring our half-salvaged tech base from the crash, and getting Mechanicus recruits as the initial crew continues to die of old age and accidents. There will still be Feudal 'Regions' on Mallus for a long time to get Space Marine recruits from.
[X] Amra is released and returns as Chapter Master, his centuries of skill guiding the Chapter again. Amra will require an expensive project to construct a suit to hide his altered form, due to the alarm it may arouse in various parties such as the Inquisition, should such individuals appear. In the mean time, Amra, once a formidable combatant, has been elevated, able to manifest various abilities.
[X] Establish a policy of steady subversion of Imperium organisations, attempting to bring their expertise and function within the organisation of the Lions' existing Chapter-Serfs, mitigating future dangers of rebellion.
[X] Pursue a policy of uplift, developing Araby, Norsca, the Southlands, and other areas to increase their technological level and populations.
[X] Amra is released and returns as Chapter Master, his centuries of skill guiding the Chapter again. Amra will require an expensive project to construct a suit to hide his altered form, due to the alarm it may arouse in various parties such as the Inquisition, should such individuals appear. In the mean time, Amra, once a formidable combatant, has been elevated, able to manifest various abilities.
[X] Establish a policy of steady subversion of Imperium organisations, attempting to bring their expertise and function within the organisation of the Lions' existing Chapter-Serfs, mitigating future dangers of rebellion.
[X] Pursue a policy of uplift, developing Araby, Norsca, the Southlands, and other areas to increase their technological level and populations.
[X] Amra is released and returns as Chapter Master, his centuries of skill guiding the Chapter again. Amra will require an expensive project to construct a suit to hide his altered form, due to the alarm it may arouse in various parties such as the Inquisition, should such individuals appear. In the mean time, Amra, once a formidable combatant, has been elevated, able to manifest various abilities.
Is it meant to apply to me because I'm not sure I believe in a fixed morality at all beyond the most basic precepts of utilitarianism?
I also have been trying to vote within what I see as possible for the characters we are dealing with. Does that count as only letting my ethics guide me when I restrict that to what I imagine an imperial could be persuaded to follow?
I do not think you should let your ethics guide you at all in a space marine quest. If you decide to play an evil character in a game it does not mean you are an evil person. We are not playing self inserts. We are playing space marines in the quest. That you expressed a dislike for Warhammer 40k and space marines while saying you like Fantasy and have "incredible fondness" for the natives is concerning.
Yes, it is wrong if you are going to vote in a way to garner misfortune for the space marines and vote against them. It comes at the expense of other players and is contrary to the purpose of the quest. This is the closest thing to griefing in a videogame, which is unethical.
Also, I'm not sure the scout organization is radical or unorthodox at all, are not the black templars a much older more conservative chapter than us in many ways where it came from?
The scout organization is a deviation from the Codex Astartes. The Black Templars are not the Celestial Lions. The Celestial Lions do not have the good standing the Black Templars enjoy. And yes it is a deviation from the Codex Astartes, which the Black Templars also in part get away with through their constant crusading and being a second founding chapter of the Imperial Fists. It is basic lore and part of the Heresy Tracker threadmark is not good.
[ ] Retain the existing organisation of the Imperium-on-Mallus, funding the other Imperium groups, excepting the Mechanicum and Knights and permitting their organisational independence.
Do you accept write ins? Can we transition to the proper independence the other groups can have? Can we appoint a provisional Planetary Governor if we cannot legally take this planet as a recruiting world that is under our authority?
I did not decide to play any evil characters though, I decided to vote in a quest.
I also have been voting to try and preserve the chapter, if I truly wanted the game damaged my votes would be drastically different than they are now.
This has already been discussed. Something being heresy is not necessarily bad while we are on mallus, especially not if it helps the chapter survive in the long term.
My goal is to try and vote for the survival of the most people as possible whenever possible, if this is wrong then I can scarcely comprehend how to behave rightly.
Yes it is. Heresy is the road to damnation. There is very little "not necessarily bad" with heresy in Warhammer 40k and you are perfectly okay with us going entirely renegade. Heresy is bad according to the Imperium and Space Marines, including the ones in this quest. The Imperium does not care if the Celestial Lions committed heresy because it was expedient. They will still judge them for committing heresy. You are not going to preserve the chapter by giving their enemies more ammunition to declare them traitors and heretics to the Imperium.
I am not a very big Star Trek fan, I find the rubber foreheaded ''aliens'' of that setting very hard to take remotely seriously.
It suffers from believability problems that are silly even if they do run counter to 40k, neither are anywhere near my favorite settings but I find very interesting stuff in both.
"Rubber forehead aliens" and "believability" have nothing to do with what @Exmorri was saying. The opening of Warhammer 40k books is to set the tone of Star Trek, which it is the complete opposite of.
You decided to play the faction you consider evil and have little love for. You said you are here to see them get their ass kicked by the natives you have "incredible fondness of". You said your vote is guided by your personal ethics. Nothing you said indicates care whether the Celestial Lions could be considered heretical or be called heretics, when that is something Space Marines do care about from their POV.
My goal is to try and vote for the survival of the most people as possible whenever possible, if this is wrong then I can scarcely comprehend how to behave rightly.
Voting by what is in character for space marines. The goal is doing what is best for the Imperium and the Chapter. Not what is best for the natives or our morality. I do not want to play space marines in name only.
Those are some hard hard choices, Is there no way we might merely aim for a partial subversion for say an adminstratum or some such? I suspect the lions would consider such too unsafe but it seems worth asking.
Do you accept write ins? Can we transition to the proper independence the other groups can have? Can we appoint a provisional Planetary Governor if we cannot legally take this planet as a recruiting world that is under our authority?
To address these 3 together, I generally always accept write ins, but I want to avoid the worst of both worlds or questers trying to find some sort of happy medium where none seems to exist. I get the impulse to say 'i dont want to make this difficult choice, lets try the median option', but equally I want to spur discussion and consideration by offering difficult choices.
As such, in the first case, you're playing as the Lions, and I don't see why they'd not try to subvert stuff anyway. A partial subversion is indeed the worst of all worlds, and the Lions are Space Marines, they don't do diplo well. If you were playing a different faction you might be facing similar difficulties. One thing I'd imagined when I was offering the chargen at the start was, for example, a colony mission by the adeptus administratum where you could have brought along a single squad of marines, who maybe were on a scouting mission or something. As the AA you wouldn't have had command over them, you'd have had to persuade them, for example, to do stuff. As such, on the first question, I don't see the Lions really considering this option. It's too subtle for them in general and I just don't think it's a realistic option. Additionally, it does indeed just prolong the issue and complicate stuff.
I would reiterate that these are general policies. For example, Norsca is unlikely to ever be as appropriate for uplift as say, Wissenland. The terrain just doesn't suit various things. As such, naturally you'd build your tech stuff in Wissenland rather than in Norsca because Norsca has lots of mountains and hostile wildlife and various other things whereas the Southern Empire is fairly chill. So yes, on the second q, you can indeed choose particular things for particular areas. The policy choices will shape actions, for example, if you chose the uplift option, you wouldn't get Nassor's 'blow up the aqueduct' option because it wouldn't be appropirate to the policy choice.
On the 3rd point, again, there's a question of why. The Lions in theory, are here 'illegally'. The other Imperial organisations don't know that. For example, they would have said to the Mechanicus, 'hey, can we sell you this planet and get a small explorator fleet to come along on our crusade?' or something similar. The Guard, Knights, Missionia Galaxia, Mechanicus, and Imperial Navy personnel don't know the details of the Inquisition/Lions conflict, they're just along for the ride.
Having said that, the Inquisition don't really want to make this conflict public either, so it's probably limited in awareness. The Black Templars certainly seem not to have known about it when they're told. Anyway, point being, absent any indication that the Lions are up to no good, they would seem to have a legal right to crusade and claim unclaimed worlds. The Astartes in general have nebulous but ancient rights to protect the Imperium however they see fit, and there's legal precedent in the Realm of Ultramar. I draw a lot from the Badab War for this quest and that starts as a local conflict other tithes because the Astral Claws claim the Maelstrom as their own territory. The High Lords apparently aren't immediately alarmed at this, and regard it as a local juristictional issue, until the greater heresies of the Astral Claws become known. To answer that question therefore, I don't really see a reason that the Lions would forfeit the Governorship in favour of some random guy they set up. They'd still hold the vast majority of the power. The arguments are laid out in the discussion in the chapter though, so go off them. The Marines are concerned about the long term, firstly that the various organisations betray them when they get back to the imperium, secondly that they become too powerful and over time they rebel, and thirdly some organisational issues like allocation of resources and authority etc.
It's fair to favour one side of a crossover over another, somewhat natural I think you'd even say. Some people will be here for space marines, others will be here for WFB stuff, either is fine really.
Yes, but lots of chapters hvae minor variations. SOme are older ones yes, others are relatively new, the Fire Hawks (or Angels, I dont recall) dont like using auxilluaries so they welded a whilwind turret onto a land raider. That's tech heresy, and lots of chapters do sort of similar things, but yea it's not that usual. It's only when stuff gets weird that there's a problem, eg the Steel Cobras.
The 9th Company proposal, for example, is a slight deviation from practice, but would probably be looked on as fine by everyone beacuse it's a sensible decision.
Worse, this was last updated three months ago and last threadmark we did yet more great deviations from Imperial orthodoxy. This latest vote has more heresy. I do not think you care if this is heretical or that this could cause more coups.
I've not updated as most stuff is similar to before. There's no point writing 'psychic stuff x3', it's covered under the general points. But yes I'll update if there's significant stuff.
I'd also say @Gunman , that the conservatism is appreciated, it's good to have a contrasting view to those who want to adapt. I've been presenting such a view in narrative but I don't recall any of the questers mentioning it yet. However, I'd also say to keep the discussion chill, having a collegiate atmosphere is useful for the quest in general. I for example don't think elves or dwarves are very interesting, but I'll still read Divided Loyalties which features lots of them.
Equally though, as would 'oh yea they definitely maintained their organisational independance during our time away'. When dealing with a court, many years after the facts, likely with many people involved being dead in the first place, there's a lot of problems to deal with. Say, for example, you had to run the Nuremberg Trials now, 80 years after the end of WW2, you'd have lots of problems establishing who did what and who's responsible for what things given you'd have no testimony from lots of witnesses.
but I want to avoid the worst of both worlds or questers trying to find some sort of happy medium where none seems to exist. I get the impulse to say 'i dont want to make this difficult choice, lets try the median option', but equally I want to spur discussion and consideration by offering difficult choices.
Or where we try to get all the benefits. It is not my intention. Most of what I say is going to look like that anyway.
On Amra, are there no precedents the Celestial Lions can go off of? Nothing in the Codex Astartes? He has a human soul, everything looks like but he does not look like an ordinary living saints. Living saints tend to disappear. This is like finding out our chapter master became part of the legion of the damned, only he is talking to us and says he should still be chapter master. Is he technically alive or human in body? We could make a legal argument that he can be an unofficial chapter champion instead of our chapter master. That kind of distance may help us with any political repercussions.
I would reiterate that these are general policies. For example, Norsca is unlikely to ever be as appropriate for uplift as say, Wissenland. The terrain just doesn't suit various things. As such, naturally you'd build your tech stuff in Wissenland rather than in Norsca because Norsca has lots of mountains and hostile wildlife and various other things whereas the Southern Empire is fairly chill. So yes, on the second q, you can indeed choose particular things for particular areas. The policy choices will shape actions, for example, if you chose the uplift option, you wouldn't get Nassor's 'blow up the aqueduct' option because it wouldn't be appropirate to the policy choice.
I am going to end up voting for uplifting. It is good to know we would not destroy our aspirant stock by making everyone too comfortable with a single vote. The same update brought up how some chapters will recruit hive gangers. With the areas we need productive, we can give children a military style education and everywhere else we could encourage a culture of violence.
This and the Heresy tracker is why I care about how we organize our scouts and every other deviation we make. I think Death Oath would be in line with how most space marine chapters handle similar situations but we went with complete acceptance. These are not the only times and we may keep making such decisions that lead us further along being considered heretical.
My view is thus: Heresy is the road towards enmity with the imperium which if we prepare for correctly is survivable. I have not gone into any of this with a lack of thought. It may help to read my older posts on plans to prepare for such a possibility If you think those plans have serious room for improvement I would love to hear about them
I can post some links further back in the thread if you desire.
In short, to elaborate my goal is literally doing best for the chapter and the world but not the imperium and in that order. If something helps both the chapter and the world I will certainly do it.
To elaborate though.
One example,working to reverse the curse on Nehekara would both help the natives grow more food which helps them, and in turn eventually creates a larger tithe for the chapter.
if something harms the chapter for the sake of the imperium more broadly I will not vote for it. I believe you just covered an example of this so there is no need for me too.
If something harms the natives and helps the chapter it will likely still get my vote. I will look for alternatives to the last scenario consistently but I do not expect the lions to respect anything but brute strength rallied against them.
Say nuking Avelorn would probably be bad for the whole world but the Lions might consider it if the high elves become troublesome enough, not only do I like the high elves but given I don't want the lady holding up the moon(which would fall on us) to die I would look for alternatives if possible.
If this is not your method for deciding that is fine, at the end of the day are merely different people trying to enjoy ourselves with some online interactive fiction.
Exmorri finds parts of this quest enjoyable for different reasons than I do, we have different goals, those goals do not differ to the degree at least of desiring the chapter not to survive.
I have heard other voters voice that they enjoyed watching the marines die quite a bit before and my understanding prior was that this was not unhelpful or unappreciated since they were indeed participating and not voting solely along those grounds. If something draws more people to a game I'd say good on them.
I suppose it might be surprising to learn that I enjoy the challenge of playing a faction I have little love for, doubly too that I might enjoy it as a mental challenge not too different from a Rubix cube and that I might think I'd benefit from moving beyond my comfort zone.
That said I am unsure speaking about how odd you find it helps either of us or the QM.
This is more multifaceted than just voting on the imperium, for another example the Skaven are certainly involved in a great deal of evil but their breeding rates and hardiness and cleverness are abundantly evident on such a scale that I feel wiping them out would be far more unwise as compared with integrating them possibly by showing them how much stronger our god and our zealots are.
That and I generally don't condone genocide, also it would be a huge resource drain, etc.
If you truly are curious I tend to enjoy Warhammer as a sort of escapism because I am optimistic enough to think our own world will never quite be as nasty(in totality) as it is, and I take a great deal of comfort in reflecting on all the ways in which it is not. Few other settings can give me this.
I hope this helps, Gunman
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Votes:
[X] Establish a policy of steady subversion of Imperium organizations, attempting to bring their expertise and function within the organization of the Lions' existing Chapter-Serfs, mitigating future dangers of rebellion.
[X] Do not pursue an active policy, instead merely preserving the currently largely Feudal organization of Mallusian societies.
[X] Amra is released and returns as Chapter Master, his centuries of skill guiding the Chapter again. Amra will require an expensive project to construct a suit to hide his altered form, due to the alarm it may arouse in various parties such as the Inquisition, should such individuals appear. In the mean time, Amra, once a formidable combatant, has been elevated, able to manifest various abilities.
[X] Retain the existing organisation of the Imperium-on-Mallus, funding the other Imperium groups, excepting the Mechanicum and Knights and permitting their organisational independence.
[X] Pursue a policy of uplift, developing Araby, Norsca, the Southlands, and other areas to increase their technological level and populations.
[X] Amra is released and returns as Chapter Master, his centuries of skill guiding the Chapter again. Amra will require an expensive project to construct a suit to hide his altered form, due to the alarm it may arouse in various parties such as the Inquisition, should such individuals appear. In the mean time, Amra, once a formidable combatant, has been elevated, able to manifest various abilities.
Yes. However, the Celestial Lions are in very poor standing with the Inquisition as a whole and Amra is a unique existence. On top of that we have many other deviations and may make more of them. We would not be on as thin ice if we were playing another chapter.
The first vote is sort of a lose-lose because we voted to sanction the preaching of what is an astartes witch cult from the perspective of the Eccesliarchy. If our local Ecclesiarchy members go back to the wider Imperium, they will spread the news. If we subvert them, we are going to make the Ecclesiarchy as a whole angry anyway.
