Shepard Quest Mk VI, Technological Revolution

[Slamu]

He's talking about towing trailers behind starships that use plasma torch engines, though, so I'm not entirely certain how sane he is, but what the hell, we can work with that.

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I figured it was going to be more 'towed to the side of the ship' personally, but what do I know?

On the Quarian side, the Migrant Fleet is unlikely to be grateful for the charity. They have, after all, spent the last 300 years basically bullying other species into "donating" to them,

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This I can understand them doing; when all you have is a hammer, and when you're really needing some supplies, it's an easy decision to make. I don't approve of it, but I can certainly understand why they did it. Much like why I can understand them exiling violent offenders rather than spacing them or locking them up.

and leave a bunch of trash lying around in orbit.

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To be fair, when given the order to evacuate a planet in less than a month or terminal sanction will occur, I'd be less concerned about picking up my trash than I was working on Project: GTFO.

If that's been their MO for the last fifteen generations, they have to have developed a sense of entitlement that puts similar nation-states on Earth to shame, like say North Korea, whose top three exports are methamphetamine, counterfeit $100 bills, and enough crazy that the UN promises them food aid in return for being slightly less belligerent.

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I don't recall the Quarians having a reputation as drug dealers. Thieves, vagrants, even troublemakers, yes, but not drug dealers. Comparing them to North Korea is somewhat disingenuous I'd think. If them having a sense of entitlement is your objection, how would you propose changing that? (Note; I don't necessarily agree with you on that point either. From my playthrough of the game, none of the Quarians I interacted with came off as entitled)

Between this sense of entitlement and a massive level of hubris that appears to be genetic, we're going to have quite a job of keeping the Quarians from just taking everything we offer them, stripping it to the beams, and using it to make another run at the Geth and Rannoch. It's fine to say that we're giving them something to lose, but frankly that matters a lot less to a group like the Quarians, who seem to have almost a religious devotion to making the wrong decision. It's not going to be easy trying to basically force the Quarians to do the right thing. Worth the effort, sure, but not at all easy.

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This, I think, crosses the line into outright slander. First of all, I doubt the Quarians would 'strip everything to the I-beams' if we offered them a friendly system for a while (if for no other reason than they can calculate the logistics of it all just like everyone else). Secondly, even if they do strip mine the system...well, it was a lifeless system to begin with. So long as we're getting paid in the interim (and why wouldn't we?) why should we worry if IX-398-b is marginally less noteworthy than it was before? Thirdly, saying that they have 'a religious devotion to making the wrong decision'...I'm going to have to ask you to support this statement somehow. The creation of the Geth as a sentient species was an unforseen event, and while it'd be nice if it was handled better I can't say I would have handled my appliances making theological inqueries of me. The Migrant Fleet is a bunch of rag-tag survivors trying to get by using whatever means they can. When the galactic governing body has repeatedly demonstrated that they don't feel inclined to help you out in the least....who do you turn to?

I'm not suggesting we force the Quarians to 'do the right thing', I'm talking about a straightforward, negotiated exchange of materials and services for (intellectual) labor.

The other side of the coin is that we have to be prepared for this decision to take in the Quarians to hurt us politically, especially with the Salarians who don't appreciate the competition for the title of "Galaxy's most arrogant mad scientists".

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Moving past stereotypes, we already know what each of the Citadel Council races wants from us in regards to getting an AI license:

[X] Investigate what would needed to be done for Paragon Industries to get an AI Research License

The paper work is the least of the difficulties. Assuming you fill out all the forms correctly the Citadel Council will have to vote to allow you a license. It takes a fair bit of digging, but eventually a source in the Turian Hierarchy gives you a brief explanation of the general dispositions of the Council members.

The Turian Councilor tends to look at the quality of the leadership of a company. Rebecca Shepard is a brilliant scientist of good character and she holds basically absolute control over the company. The Turian vote is probably a yes.

The Asari vote is usually more concerned with the stability of the company. PI really doesn't have any stabilizing factors and reports to no one save Rebecca Shepard. Barring time or politics. this vote is a no.

The Salarian representative is the quiet one and tends to be the swing vote in divided issues. Despite the Salarian tendency toward... dangerous science at times, they don't encourage others to research dangerous things. They are going to need a better understanding of the company and its goals, particularly its goals for AI research, before they'll say yes. Right now PI looks like a magic box that pops out new stuff, some of which could become very dangerous.

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In short, the Turians want us to be qualified and in control. We've got their vote.
The Asari want to make sure we're stable enough to be trusted. Right now, their vote is no.
The Salarians want to make sure they can predict how we're going to use the AI we create. They're the 'maybe' vote.

As a note; the Asari are noted as being 'bribable' in a fashion; I can't help but think that the cure for Asari vampirism is a pretty juicy carrot. Even if the number of Asari with that condition is minimal, the opportunity to free them from the specter of that particular horror seems to be...rather culturally important.

Out of curiously did hoyr say anything about when the next update will be
I have nothing but respect for him and have no desire to rush him
And I am fully aware that it is up to him when to update or not
But all this talk about quarians and new tech have made me anxious

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I empathize with your anxiety, but in general the approach seems to be 'it will happen when it happens'.

 

[TheEyes]

This I can understand them doing; when all you have is a hammer, and when you're really needing some supplies, it's an easy decision to make. I don't approve of it, but I can certainly understand why they did it. Much like why I can understand them exiling violent offenders rather than spacing them or locking them up.

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The problem is that they do have options; they're just choosing to be thieves and vagrants instead. They have fifty thousand ships, the largest concentrated fleet in the galaxy, and they are using it to extort protection money out of the civilized species of the galaxy ("Hey, nice asteroid field you have there; quite a lot of platinum you have surveyed. How do I know that? That's not important; what is important is that me and my fifty thousand vagrant ships are really hungry, and need a good meal. Hey, can you spare a little something, so we can keep on the road? Please be generous; we have a lot of hungry mouths to feed.")

It would be far more morally defensible to find a planet to settle on semi-permanently, build themselves a domed city or something and put those ships to the task of gathering a surplus of materials with which to defend themselves and grow. It wouldn't even need to be that large a city; there are 17 million Quarians, which is about the size of the Lagos metro area. ~1,000 square kilometers, which they would no doubt be able to compress a lot more with that impressive engineering talent they have. If they weren't patient enough to sit through what would certainly be a years-long, maybe decades-long, process to settle in relatively stable Council-held space then they could just as easily found a planet in the Terminus, chased whoever was living there off with their massive fleet, and gotten straight to work.

But they're not doing any of that, because being parasites and cruising the galaxy shaking down more civilized species for money and ships--or jumping their mining claims--then dumping their trash and murderers before heading off to their next mark, is safer for them. This is where I get the idea that they have a sense of entitlement, that they've bought into their own status as tragic figures who deserve to siphon resources off of the rest of the galaxy: that's how they behave. Less than 1% of the galaxy has been explored, let alone colonized, in Mass Effect, leaving a gigantic area to explore and settle in, of which they only need a tiny spit of a single world to live on, given that their entire population is 0.24% that of the current 2016 population on Earth. Either their entire species is too stupid to figure this out over three hundred years, or they have a disheartening combination of hubris and entitlement that makes their current lifestyle a preferred choice, in which case it's completely understandable for the rest of the galaxy to treat them with scorn.

 

[Silver719]

There's also the option that we give the Quarians enough to make a pass at the Geth but not enough to win, tell them 'I told you so' when they lose, then make them take whatever deal we want them to take. Perhaps losing an admiral and half their ships antagonizing the Geth will smack some sense into them.

 

[TheEyes]

There's also the option that we give the Quarians enough to make a pass at the Geth but not enough to win, tell them 'I told you so' when they lose, then make them take whatever deal we want them to take. Perhaps losing an admiral and half their ships antagonizing the Geth will smack some sense into them.

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Um, they've already lost their home planet along with 99+% of their population in the Morning War 300 years ago. If they didn't learn their lesson from that, well, it's not like they have billions more Quarians to lose.

Besides, the Citadel Council is so pants-shittinly terrified of pissing off the Geth that they're willing to turn a blind eye to the Geth invading and slaughtering a human world in ME1, no doubt hoping that if the Geth get enough jollies from killing a few million humans that they'll decide to go back to the Veil and not destroy the galaxy for another few hundred years. If we deliberately give the Quarians a stick to poke the Geth with, we might well find ourselves as the personal enemy of the Council, which despite the portrayal of them as spineless appeasers in charge of a union barely stronger than the defunct League of Nations, could still turn out quite badly for us.

 

[Silver719]

Um, they've already lost their home planet along with 99+% of their population in the Morning War 300 years ago. If they didn't learn their lesson from that, well, it's not like they have billions more Quarians to lose.

Besides, the Citadel Council is so pants-shittinly terrified of pissing off the Geth that they're willing to turn a blind eye to the Geth invading and slaughtering a human world in ME1, no doubt hoping that if the Geth get enough jollies from killing a few million humans that they'll decide to go back to the Veil and not destroy the galaxy for another few hundred years. If we deliberately give the Quarians a stick to poke the Geth with, we might well find ourselves as the personal enemy of the Council, which despite the portrayal of them as spineless appeasers in charge of a union barely stronger than the defunct League of Nations, could still turn out quite badly for us.

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It wasn't really a serious suggestion, anyways, but yeah I see your point.

What about contacting the Geth? They're not ALL complete assholes. If Nazara hasn't corrupted them yet, they might actually be open to a technically-inclined organic mind. Has that been proposed yet?

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

Shepard doesn't know that, and the Geth, as weirdly forgiving as they are, are still likely pretty closed off from the, y'know, attempted genocide and all that.

 

[Renars]

There were some suggestions to send some ships (preferably with stealth tech) to "understand" what is going on.
If its possible to send signals for the Geth to detect, WITHOUT pinpointing the ships location, we could send some "peace-talk" or "communication" packages?

 

[newwriter]

The problem is that they do have options; they're just choosing to be thieves and vagrants instead. They have fifty thousand ships, the largest concentrated fleet in the galaxy, and they are using it to extort protection money out of the civilized species of the galaxy ("Hey, nice asteroid field you have there; quite a lot of platinum you have surveyed. How do I know that? That's not important; what is important is that me and my fifty thousand vagrant ships are really hungry, and need a good meal. Hey, can you spare a little something, so we can keep on the road? Please be generous; we have a lot of hungry mouths to feed.")

It would be far more morally defensible to find a planet to settle on semi-permanently, build themselves a domed city or something and put those ships to the task of gathering a surplus of materials with which to defend themselves and grow. It wouldn't even need to be that large a city; there are 17 million Quarians, which is about the size of the Lagos metro area. ~1,000 square kilometers, which they would no doubt be able to compress a lot more with that impressive engineering talent they have. If they weren't patient enough to sit through what would certainly be a years-long, maybe decades-long, process to settle in relatively stable Council-held space then they could just as easily found a planet in the Terminus, chased whoever was living there off with their massive fleet, and gotten straight to work.

But they're not doing any of that, because being parasites and cruising the galaxy shaking down more civilized species for money and ships--or jumping their mining claims--then dumping their trash and murderers before heading off to their next mark, is safer for them. This is where I get the idea that they have a sense of entitlement, that they've bought into their own status as tragic figures who deserve to siphon resources off of the rest of the galaxy: that's how they behave. Less than 1% of the galaxy has been explored, let alone colonized, in Mass Effect, leaving a gigantic area to explore and settle in, of which they only need a tiny spit of a single world to live on, given that their entire population is 0.24% that of the current 2016 population on Earth. Either their entire species is too stupid to figure this out over three hundred years, or they have a disheartening combination of hubris and entitlement that makes their current lifestyle a preferred choice, in which case it's completely understandable for the rest of the galaxy to treat them with scorn.

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I understand your argument but
I just feel that
your comparing of quarians as thieves and vagrants sound disturbing like the sterotypes used to insult minorities such as Jews, Romani, and Asians

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

I understand your argument but
I just feel that
your comparing of quarians as thieves and vagrants sound disturbing like the sterotypes used to insult minorities such as Jews, Romani, and Asians

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Well, you can't let those biases colour your views, can you? I mean, I'm pretty sure Jews, Romanians and Asians don't need to be bribed not to go to a certain settlement for free goodies.

 

[TheEyes]

I understand your argument but
I just feel that
your comparing of quarians as thieves and vagrants sound disturbing like the sterotypes used to insult minorities such as Jews, Romani, and Asians

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While I'm sympathetic to that sentiment, the difference here is that the Quarians actually did, and the Migrant Fleet is currently doing, the exact things that those human groups are unfairly depicted as doing. Worse, in fact, because the Quarians nearly ended all life in the galaxy through their inept, epic mismanagement of the Geth situation, and their response is to keep poking at the problem and making it worse.

Yeah, it's an uncomfortable attitude to have, especially for me as last year I was advocating for your side of the "Let's just give the Quarians what they want, because they have so much to offer. What could possibly go wrong?" debate, but re-analyzing the facts have forced me to change my mind on the issue.

 

[newwriter]

Well, you can't let those biases colour your views, can you? I mean, I'm pretty sure Jews, Romanians and Asians don't need to be bribed not to go to a certain settlement for free goodies.

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Of course not they go to new places for opportunity and to find jobs like quarians on pligrimages

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

Of course not they go to new places for opportunity and to find jobs like quarians on pligrimages

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Mmmm
Well, Quarians on their pilgrimage are sorta a bit of a grey area, because they're not actually that good for the economy in which they go to unless they decide to stay there indefinitely (Which some do, as Tali mentions), they do, in fact, take jobs, if, say, there was an area which was a hotspot for Quarians on their pilgrimage, then that means that the local workers are phased out in favour of the much cheaper and more handy Quarian workers, problem is, however, is that most of those Quarians leave, they work until they can buy something that's good enough for a Pilgrimage gift (Likely some sort of ship) and bounce, but those workers I just mentioned are still there, they're just out of a job even though they've spent their lives there, and the Quarians aren't contributing anything apart from that because they don't live there, they're just visiting, unlike the immigrants in today's society who actually want to make a life where-ever they go.

 

[Yog]

It wasn't really a serious suggestion, anyways, but yeah I see your point.

What about contacting the Geth? They're not ALL complete assholes. If Nazara hasn't corrupted them yet, they might actually be open to a technically-inclined organic mind. Has that been proposed yet?

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Geth are isolationists who shoot down any attempts at contacting them.

I understand your argument but
I just feel that
your comparing of quarians as thieves and vagrants sound disturbing like the sterotypes used to insult minorities such as Jews, Romani, and Asians

Click to shrink...

Quarians aren't space Jews, Romani or Asians. They are space Moonbase!Nazis. Lost a genocidal war against an "inferior" race, escaped to space, are led by the military, fanatically devoted to retaking their homelands. Not above underhanded tactics, stealing and such to get what they want.

And yes, collectively as a culture, quarians are the bad-light image of a Romani tribe.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

They did try to communicate with Legion (As in the Geth tried to communicate with other races through Legion), though.
Or maybe he was originally designed to gather information on the other races and become a Shepard fanboy, I can't recall.

 

[Larekko12]

This is increasingly sounding like the quarians are going to die our because Shepard not maining enough paragon to work on them and we never ran into a tali to motivate thec to try.

Well that or the only ones who are gonna survive are the few who peeled off.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

This is increasingly sounding like the quarians are going to die our because Shepard not maining enough paragon to work on them and we never ran into a tali to motivate thec to try.

Well that or the only ones who are gonna survive are the few who peeled off.

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We want to help, it's just that rushing forward is not a reasonable action.

 

[Killer_Whale]

This is increasingly sounding like the quarians are going to die our because Shepard not maining enough paragon to work on them and we never ran into a tali to motivate thec to try.

Well that or the only ones who are gonna survive are the few who peeled off.

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Firstly we've got a guaranteed interaction with Tali

Awhile back I traded an omake for an early Pilgrimage for Tali. I'm hoping that "early" is "before 2177" since that also gives us a shot at saving her mom from dying of the flu.

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AS TheEyes noted he redeemed an omake for the opportunity to recruit Tali early, which will have to wait until after some other things.

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We have also gotten the option for Quarian research heroes before, we could always try for another.

[X] Headhunt a research hero (this will not necessarily come into fruition immediately).
-[x] Search for someone with experience in Shielding/Barrier technology, in hopes that we might be able to design shields that can protect against DEWs.

Finding the right kind of people is hard. You need people with that extra bit of capacity. The right intellect, the right mind-set and that somewhat "magical" spark of creativity. So many of them are already employed or involved with their own things and even then you have to separate out the mad men and charlatans from the visionaries.

Humanity is still trying to develop their technology and while at times they can find new avenues that others missed, the other races of the galaxy have far more experience. You best success comes from sources outside the SA:

Gala Da'van is a 320 year old asari scientist that is an expert in electromagnetism as well as plasma. She has some ideas that you think that combined with the options your technology allows could produce new shielding technologies.

Jenzel Fend nar Rayya is a 23 year old male quarian that has done a fair amount of work on what he calls "Impregnated Dark Energy Fields". Or in simpler terms sticking things into mass effect fields and then seeing what that does.

Gaver Dor is a rare Krogan scientist that specializes in high strength mass effect fields. You found out about him by chance when he replied to one of your papers on mass effect theory. He has several interesting ideas on mass effect shielding that would require more power then would be reasonable conventionally.

They all seem like people who could benefit Paragon Industries and from what you can tell are not affiliated with anyone hostile to you.

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[TheEyes]

Mmmm
Well, Quarians on their pilgrimage are sorta a bit of a grey area, because they're not actually that good for the economy in which they go to unless they decide to stay there indefinitely (Which some do, as Tali mentions), they do, in fact, take jobs, if, say, there was an area which was a hotspot for Quarians on their pilgrimage, then that means that the local workers are phased out in favour of the much cheaper and more handy Quarian workers, problem is, however, is that most of those Quarians leave, they work until they can buy something that's good enough for a Pilgrimage gift (Likely some sort of ship) and bounce, but those workers I just mentioned are still there, they're just out of a job even though they've spent their lives there, and the Quarians aren't contributing anything apart from that because they don't live there, they're just visiting, unlike the immigrants in today's society who actually want to make a life where-ever they go.

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It should be noted that this is a common sentiment among certain political types, that the foreigners are here to "take our jobs", and that transient workers hurt the employability of local workers. The facts never actually line up with such a sentiment, especially when you consider how few Quarians are actually on pilgrimage, but it's even more unlikely to be the case in a post-VI economy, where work in general is inevitably in such short supply that some sort of high-tax / guaranteed wage system will be required just to keep the poverty rate below 80-90%. Such a world would be even less "threatened" by an influx of transient workers.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

It should be noted that this is a common sentiment among certain political types, that the foreigners are here to "take our jobs", and that transient workers hurt the employability of local workers. The facts never actually line up with such a sentiment, especially when you consider how few Quarians are actually on pilgrimage, but it's even more unlikely to be the case in a post-VI economy, where work in general is inevitably in such short supply that some sort of high-tax / guaranteed wage system will be required just to keep the poverty rate below 80-90%. Such a world would be even less "threatened" by an influx of transient workers.

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Fair, the VI thing I didn't really think about, I guess in something of a post-scarcity world like ME, having a job wouldn't really be such a big necessity.
Actually, how many Quarians would be on their Pilgimage at any given time? The ME wiki doesn't really mention the specific age apart from after the teen years, so about 20, and apparently most Pilgrimages have a lot of ceremony around them, zero population growth, though, so maybe around a few hundred thousand on average?

 

[Hazard]

Well, if we presume 20 million quarians (there aren't that many), a lifespan of 100 years (probably lowballing it a bit) and that a Pilgrimage is a rite of passage into adulthood and as such probably not going to take more than 5 years, you'd get 20 000 000 quarians /100 (lifespan) * 5 (percentage of time max spent on Pilgrimage) about 100 000 quarians on Pilgrimage at any single moment in time at the most.

It's wrong of course, but for an estimate it's good enough.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

There's 17 million, if what the wiki says is correct, so a bit lower than that.

 

[Hazard]

There's 17 million, if what the wiki says is correct, so a bit lower than that.

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We also have no clue as to the actual quarian lifespan and how long a Pilgrimage takes. This is most likely the upper bound.

 

[TheEyes]

We also have no clue as to the actual quarian lifespan and how long a Pilgrimage takes. This is most likely the upper bound.

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I'd call your assumptions a lower bound, really. There's no way the average Quarian lifespan is 100 years: they're so immune-compromised that linking the suit environments of two Quarians who both grew up in sterile environments is considered a dangerous, potentially deadly trust exercise. At the same time, a five year Pilgrimage also seems extremely short. Ten seems more the mark: remember that a Quarian on Pilgrimage is expected to bring back something of significant value, like a ship, and even a cheap used ship can run into the tens of millions of credits.

Also, I think your math is wrong. 100,000 is only 0.5℅ of the Quarian population; I think you were looking for 5℅, a number I still see as too low.

 

[Hazard]

Ten seems more the mark: remember that a Quarian on Pilgrimage is expected to bring back something of significant value, like a ship, and even a cheap used ship can run into the tens of millions of credits.

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Then quarians as a species out do the volus' propensity for sheer economic chops. Bringing in a new ship should not be considered something a single quarian is expected to bring in, the sheer value discrepancy is too great. Rather, if a new ship is brought in it's most likely a concerted effort by dozens if not hundreds of quarian pilgrims.

The 'things of value' that a Pilgrim usually brings is going to be information. Like claims that the Migrant Fleet can jump, or good deals for used parts. Everything else is just implausible due to sheer bulk, expense and other problems of acquisition and transportation.

Also, I think your math is wrong. 100,000 is only 0.5℅ of the Quarian population; I think you were looking for 5℅, a number I still see as too low.

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... Yup, my math is wrong. Roughly a million would be about right, probably less.

 

[Tabron89]

Mind you, bringing back a used ship usually means that the person to fetch it becomes the new captain.

It's implied to be a very rare occurance, though.

Who knows how they got their hands on them: Blackmail, finding one in a breakers yard somewhere, given one for outstanding work, got into a card game and kept winning, got into a firefight with slavers and ended up taking their ship.....could be anything.