Shepard Quest Mk VI, Technological Revolution

As for how to prevent Hanar civilization from collapsing: they want to build everything over seven years, right? That gives us plenty of time to build a separate set of factories in Hanar space, employ Hanar to build their own new ships and ground forces, and generally help the Hanar people out while making a respectable profit for ourselves.

Do we really need to build factories in Hanar space? This
Actually the Hanar have suggested that they lease you a shipyard or two so that you can start selling them those ships sooner.
would probably be more then enough. Two Medium Shipyards would be able to pump out 309 Zama per year. Over seven years that is 2,163 Frigates. Given that would be a full 36% of all the ships of the Hanar plan on building:
This includes seven brand new Dreadnought class vessels, as well as five to six thousand other combat vessels and numerous additional support craft.
I think that should suffice.

The big problem is going to be cutting enough of our techs loose from Alliance-only status to make our offerings compelling to the Hanar. Gigawatt lasers will be paramount in this consideration, as it will allow us to give the Hanar a dreadnought-crushing fleet without breaking their budget. Frankly lasers as offensive weapons are mostly a gimmick anyway; every starship in existence already has the capability of producing rudimentary TIR shielding, so it's only a matter of time until lasers are once again ineffective against capital ships.

Eh. The Hanar are already very interested in the Zama. It offers advanced MACs*, 30LY/day FTL Drives, Cyclonic Barriers, and hyper-modularity allowing for easy upgrading in the future.

*I can't find the numbers on the RoF increase, although I think it was 10x normal speed, but here is the quote that says we have it:
The part you're proudest of is the vastly increased rate of fire for the spinal gun. Thanks to the arc-reactor, the spinal's capacitors can be recharged so fast that the main limiting factor is the rate a new round can be loaded into the gun.

Repulsors, on the other hand, may not be as important; we can probably license the Salarian high-yield ion drive instead, improve on it a little with our metamaterials, and get a respectable drive without releasing that technology to a wider market.

Eh. It's great for bulk-hauling but an Ion drive will never be a combat engine.

As to the bleakness I'm not sure how much the money from the Hanar is going to effect the near term development of your production.

Well let's throw some math at the problem and see what comes out.

At 77 Zamas per quarter with the initially proposed price (41,400,000,000cr) less the unit cost (18,047,610,000cr) we'd be looking at 1,798,134,030,000cr per quarter. If we assume the rent on the shipyards is say 10x their upkeep (2x 50,000,000,000cr) then we're looking at a profit of about 1.7 trillion per quarter. Meanwhile if charged standard market price (55,560,000,000cr) then we'd be making 2.79 trillion per quarter.

So in effect we'd be gaining an extra trillion credits per quarter by increasing the price. Assuming we start getting paid in 2174-Q4 this would be the effect on our income for the next two years:
Quarter Quarterly Profit (Discount) Quarterly Profit (Standard) Percentage Increase
2174-Q4 4,828,605,857,970 5,918,925,857,970 123%
2175-Q1 5,993,797,785,940 7,084,117,785,940 118%
2175-Q2 7,180,254,513,910 8,270,574,513,910 115%
2175-Q3 9,585,468,041,880 10,675,788,041,880 111%
2175-Q4 11,990,690,369,850 13,081,010,369,850 109%
2176-Q1 14,395,921,497,820 15,486,241,497,820 108%
2176-Q2 16,801,161,425,790 17,891,481,425,790 106%
2176-Q3 19,206,410,153,760 20,296,730,153,760
106%
of course this is somewhat deceptive since it doesn't take into account the increase in production, and hence income, we can get out of each extra trillion credits. If you factor that in we're looking at at least +7.8 trillion, +15.6 trillion, and +23.4 trillion in 2176-Q1/Q2/Q3 respectively.

Still all that being said I don't think it's going to be that significant a benefit. I'll do a write-up on it later.

Recall that it takes 3 quarters for a Factory III (no trying to cheat by building lots of Factory Is please?) to come online.

Hm. We need 100 Factory Is to each III. A hundred of those clock in at 4 billion, 4x as much as a Factory III, and require 200 million in upkeep, 4x as much as a Factory III, but honestly that seems like a perfectly reasonable exchange for getting them operational 3x faster. In the two extra quarters of use we'd get at least an extra 15.6 billion credits which more then makes up for the increased cost and offsets the increased upkeep for the next 15 years. The only real issue would be the massive increase in area.

@Hoyr - Would there be any delays or cost increases to stacking Factory Is atop each other? I figure we could quite easily build stacks of 25 without issue.

The question is will your ability to produce war materials be a major bottle neck at that point? Which depend on how the war goes. It could have devolved to mostly planetary battles at that point. Or it may not.

I doubt it will be an issue. We can fairly easily pump out 40 Light Laser Pyndas per quarter with just our in-house production capacity. At that rate we could replace the entire Alliance frigate fleet within 8 years. In 6 quarters time we'll have our first Shipyard III up and operational at which put we can pump out 309 LLPs per quarter. So running the math:
  1. 0 + 40 = 40
  2. 40 + 40 = 80
  3. 80 + 40 = 120
  4. 120 + 40 = 160
  5. 160 + 40 = 200
  6. 200 + 40 = 240
  7. 240 + 309 = 549
  8. 549 + 309 = 858
  9. 858 + 309 = 1,167
  10. 1,167 + 309 = 1,476
10 quarters (2.5 years) isn't bad to replace the entire frigate fleet. Especially since we, as I mentioned earlier, will likely get access to other shipyards.

I seem to recall plans in the works to massively expand production in the near future. I imagine some one would have to spend a lot of time looking at table and doing extimates on the duration of the war to find out how much it matters. As well as figuring out the relative impact of the contract on PI's finds. (Not doing that now... some one else can if they wish.)

Definitely plans to do that. The only question is if Factory IIIs can be used to pump out starship parts or if Shipyards are required. Depending upon the answer we might have to postpone Project Earthfall a quarter and instead go with Shipyards Everywhere and throw up a hundred small Shipyards scattered across Human space.

No...? You just have to build some thrusters, put them on a relay and move it. (Political/PR issues may apply.) No research project needed. If someone really wants to they can be super-nerdy and attempt to math out the details of such an op. Usually I ask for a design description for what ever people want to build and treat that as an omake spent to complete the design.

Eh. It seems like a pretty simple project. You build a gigantic scaffold with a bunch of claps that can latch onto the Relay then attack a massive Repulsor on it. At a (very) rough guess I'd peg a Mass Relay at around 675 billion metric tons. A 500m Repuslor would 625gN of force for an acceleration of ~1mm/s. While that's quite low it would get the Relay up to 31.5km/s after a year and cover a distance of 13.8 light-minutes.

Of course the problem is such a Repulsor would cost 1.25 trillion credits, 7.5 million production, and require 17.5PW of power. Which in turn would need an Arc Reactor costing 52.5 billion credits and 262,500 production.

I might have mentioned this before, but I've been sort of assuming that most of our production buildings owe 50% of their current upkeep cost to personnel and the rest to materials (replacement parts for machines, etc), while everything under the "Additional Buildings" heading--Admin buildings, training grounds, etc--owes 90% of its upkeep cost to personnel and only 10% to materials. Sound fair?
Uhh.... doesn't sound unreasonable. IDK @UberJJK what do you think?

Eh. I'm not too sure on that. Take one of our Factory IIIs for instance; it requires two hundred million in upkeep per year so if half of that went to personnel that's a hundred million. Even our Researchers only get 80k/yr, which on reflection seems low so they definitely deserve that pay rise, but if we say the average wage for Factory personnel is 100k/yr then we'd need a thousand employees to hit the 100mill mark, two thousand for the more reasonable 50k/yr, which seems like a lot considering all the advanced automation our factories are supposed to have.
 
our Researchers only get 80k/yr, which on reflection seems low
Aren't we assuming for this quest that 1 credit is approximately equal to one modern dollar. Seems to me that 80k represents something like the average of a new scientist getting 40k a year and senior ones being close to 200k. I don't know what american scientists get, but it seems pretty good.

They are definitely due cost of living rises though.
 
What will the rest of the Citadel do? Why do you make it sound like it's an Alliance/Batarian war? Shouldn't big three jump to our side?
I get that they wouldn't want to be at the front lines, but shouldn't they at least declare their support? If they don't, then what is the reason behind the treaty of Farixen?
Plus Batarians opened a relay with full knowledge of the consequences. Humans got blitzed for doing much less.
Be fair; we don't know what the Council will say yet. The Council isn't stupid; for all that they pretend to be autocratic dictators that can do whatever they want with impunity, even they can't ignore that the Batarians managed to use a secret Relay to hijack the Relay network; if they manage to ignore that less than 20 years after the Turians attacked humanity in the First Contact War the treaties holding the Citadel together wouldn't be worth the bits they were encoded with. They have to respond immediately, overwhelmingly, and effectively to this, or else abdicate all claims to authority that don't originate from the barrel of a gun.

Do we really need to build factories in Hanar space? This
would probably be more then enough. Two Medium Shipyards would be able to pump out 309 Zama per year. Over seven years that is 2,163 Frigates. Given that would be a full 36% of all the ships of the Hanar plan on building:
I think that should suffice.
Well, possibly. Remember that PI is the only one building our super-generalist, super-agile, build-anything-anywhere no retooling time factories, with everyone else taking quarters to years to retool even between known product lines; that's why we have to pay so much for our Production. How long is it going to take to retool a Hanar shipyard to produce our designs, when 50-75% of the basic materials are completely unknown to their scientists, let alone their mechanical engineers? Would it be faster or slower than just building the factories ourselves?

Eh. It's great for bulk-hauling but an Ion drive will never be a combat engine.
Combat speed, sure, but here I'm thinking strategic speed, which, granted, is more important for offensive roles than defensive, but is still important. More important is that pushing for cheaper laser frigates over expensive and less effective (for now*) dreadnoughts is going to save the Hanar economy, which will be a major feather in the Alliance's cap regardless, and the opportunity of a lifetime for whichever diplomat is assigned to negotiate concessions from the Hanar government in exchange for access to an important Alliance strategic weapon.

*In any case, laser weapon technology has a limited shelf life, and is extremely unlikely to be of any use against the Reapers, so we may as well work to push it out as quickly as we can.

Eh. I'm not too sure on that. Take one of our Factory IIIs for instance; it requires two hundred million in upkeep per year so if half of that went to personnel that's a hundred million. Even our Researchers only get 80k/yr, which on reflection seems low so they definitely deserve that pay rise, but if we say the average wage for Factory personnel is 100k/yr then we'd need a thousand employees to hit the 100mill mark, two thousand for the more reasonable 50k/yr, which seems like a lot considering all the advanced automation our factories are supposed to have.
Well, maybe. Again, keep in mind these are super-generalist, super-agile, build-anything-anywhere no retooling time factories unlike anything that could possibly exist in reality or even anywhere else in the ME universe; CHA probably gets the same amount of Production capacity out of a quarter the materials cost and a tenth or a twentieth the personnel cost; it's how they remain profitable at all at the margins they charge, when PI charging such a low markup would actually bankrupt us.

In our factories they're 3D-printing giant nuclear missiles, healing nanites, or 100 meter frigate superstructures out of materials that didn't even theoretically exist three months ago, to do things that weren't theoretically possible three weeks ago, to fit design specs that were emailed to their secure server last night. That kind of bullshit, Star Trek-tier engineering talent doesn't come cheap, and it isn't something that can really be automated. We probably do have design engineers at our factories that make more than our scientists (who definitely have different pay scales depending on team role, and probably don't have 20 people per team either since they're not split into 4 teams to cover a 24/7 shift; 10-15 is probably closer to the mark here), and they're worth every penny given our habit of dropping a design in their lap that couldn't exist yesterday and expect them to ship it as a finished product by the close of business today.
 
Last edited:
*In any case, laser weapon technology has a limited shelf life, and is extremely unlikely to be of any use against the Reapers, so we may as well work to push it out as quickly as we can.

I forgot to argue this before; I'm not so sure. Yes TIR is the perfect defense against lasers however it comes with some significant downsides. Most notably that it renders the ship completely blind to the outside world and it traps all the ship's radiated heat inside. So barring more PI tech, most notably QECs and our various heat reducing stuff, it's something that can only be used for brief bursts. That's an issue considering you can't detect lasers until they've already impacted.
 
Well, possibly. Remember that PI is the only one building our super-generalist, super-agile, build-anything-anywhere no retooling time factories, with everyone else taking quarters to years to retool even between known product lines; that's why we have to pay so much for our Production. How long is it going to take to retool a Hanar shipyard to produce our designs, when 50-75% of the basic materials are completely unknown to their scientists, let alone their mechanical engineers? Would it be faster or slower than just building the factories ourselves?
You are not wrong. But you are also not right.
Other companies generally roll out products so slowly that they can afford to specialise individual factories to build specific things.
We also have the option to build specialised factories, however we have chosen not to do this because our production on any given turn can be very different from the last and thus we might be facing significant production maluses. We have considered building a specialised factory for Arc Reactors as we have a constant minimum production that we'll have to assign to them however we sort of decided that the massive amounts of production that space stations can provide are more useful for us.

Basically we can safely assume that the Hanar shipyards that we will be leased will be 'standard' ones like we would produce. There is nothing inherently different about our factories as far as game mechanics are concerned.
And that PI engineers and scientists will be there to oversee the production, that's just common sense.
 
1) Batarians practice spacemagic slavery that somehow allows them to at least locally outcompete Alliance. There was this jointly colonized batarian-human planet where alliance-affiliated firms tried to institute indetured servitude because they couldn't compete with batarians without it
You've mentioned this a number of times before. What the Codex entry actually says is:
A consortium of corporations and corrupt politicians, fearing batarian economic competition due to their custom of legal slavery, passed a resolution that abolished the minimum wage - effectively relegalizing slavery on a human-dominated world.
Note: "fearing", not "experiencing", and "effectively" not "actually".

Did you know there is a significant fraction of people in the US today (read: the Republican Party, who regularly receive ~40-45% of the popular vote in most elections and manage to win majorities in some votes) who want to repeal the minimum wage in this country now, due to fears of competition with low-wage workers in China and Mexico driving jobs overseas? The quoted line has nothing to do with "space-magic slavery is economically viable" and everything to do with "stupid people doing stupid things out of fear".
I forgot to argue this before; I'm not so sure. Yes TIR is the perfect defense against lasers however it comes with some significant downsides. Most notably that it renders the ship completely blind to the outside world and it traps all the ship's radiated heat inside. So barring more PI tech, most notably QECs and our various heat reducing stuff, it's something that can only be used for brief bursts. That's an issue considering you can't detect lasers until they've already impacted.
While true, I have to wonder how hard it would be to "pulse" TIR shields: have the TIR part on for ~70-90% of the time, and off only when the sensors are taking a reading? Or maybe have TIR over most of the ship, with out-rigger drones set to make pulse-transmissions of sensor data during the times when the shield is off?

It could be made to work, and be effective even if not 100%.

We also have the option to build specialised factories, however we have chosen not to do this because our production on any given turn can be very different from the last and thus we might be facing significant production maluses.
Actually we don't have that ability anymore; the GM cut us off to simplify the paperwork. Other companies can and do specialize, however: we know CHA does or they would literally be losing money with every Gladius sold, and we know that retooling is a significant time sink for other companies because H&K spent a quarter retooling their power armor factories in order to produce our Legion, despite the fact that most of that design was using normal materials and known design methodologies. Imagine having to produce a LIte Laser Pynda, just a month or so after half the technology was invented.
 
Last edited:
Of the top of my head estimates, feel free to indicate errors.

So roughly speaking fleet size parity, but the Hegemony has a disadvantage in economy and technology, which means that unless the Hegemony manages to defeat the Systems Alliance very quickly the SA is liable to win in the long run.

Oh look, they failed to destroy Mindoir, and probably failed to destroy Earth's industrial base.

Space is neither empty nor safe.

True, but if 20 years is the maximum reasonable service life of a military space frame why is that the Migrant Fleet has had ships, including implied military ships, that have lasted centuries?

4) Pretty sure that humans were economically propped up (by asari), while batarians faced centuries of economic pressure.

This is quite plausible.

Maybe we can ask SA parliament to broker some deals with the Hanar in exchange for making the fleet affordable. That way the Hanar get the fleet and stay stable and the SA gets trade deals or military access or something.

That's quite reasonable really, but it will depend on how the Illuminated Primacy reacts to the attack on the SA. If the IP decide to try and get closer to the SA as well I can see that happening.
 
I forgot to argue this before; I'm not so sure. Yes TIR is the perfect defense against lasers however it comes with some significant downsides. Most notably that it renders the ship completely blind to the outside world and it traps all the ship's radiated heat inside. So barring more PI tech, most notably QECs and our various heat reducing stuff, it's something that can only be used for brief bursts. That's an issue considering you can't detect lasers until they've already impacted.

I do not think that heat is that big issue for Reapers. They are basically centuries (or at least decades in the case of PI) ahead in ME tech compared to anyone(Leviathans does not count, since the made them).
 
I think the one thing that the Batarians will exploit the hell out of to compensate for their disadvantages will be their special Relay allowing for far superior maneuvering around most defenses. Also on a side note I fully expect them to field armies of slaves with cheap guns as cannon fodder, naturally they'd strap explosive collars to them to keep them in line.
 
Also on a side note I fully expect them to field armies of slaves with cheap guns as cannon fodder, naturally they'd strap explosive collars to them to keep them in line.
It does not help much against Arc reactor powered barriers.

Just to defeat a single solder in a 1st model Legonary, you need at least squad worth of firepower.
 
It does not help much against Arc reactor powered barriers.

Just to defeat a single solder in a 1st model Legonary, you need at least squad worth of firepower.
True but as I said the slaves would be fodder, literally there to add more bullets and bodies to your side. Plus if they go really sick and throw child slaves on the pile it will cause Alliance soldiers to hesitate and damage moral.
 
@Hoyr Let's address the elephant.

What will the rest of the Citadel do? Why do you make it sound like it's an Alliance/Batarian war? Shouldn't big three jump to our side?
I get that they wouldn't want to be at the front lines, but shouldn't they at least declare their support? If they don't, then what is the reason behind the treaty of Farixen?
Plus Batarians opened a relay with full knowledge of the consequences. Humans got blitzed for doing much less.

To address this out of order:

I'm talking about it being SA vs BH because as of this exact moment that's all it is. I mean I haven't mentioned any of the Batarian puppet states or their "allies" that have declared (officially or other wise) on you as well or any of that stuff either.

The ban on opening relays only applies to Primary Relays you can open all the secondary ones you like. (Additionally if you can prove you know where the Primary Relay goes you can open it.) On top of that it's a Citadel law that applies in Citadel space, which the rest of the galaxy seems willing to roll with. Primary Relays only link to a single partner. Secondaries can target any secondary relay in range so this could have been done with a hidden secondary relay. Not illegal is a bit worrying that such a thing exists assuming that's what happened. (It's not what happened, the Alpha Relay has been in uses for years, it just has an extra mode.)

The Treaty of Farixen is a mutual agreement to not have an arms race with an agreed upon ratio of power. It's enforced by economic/political power namely if you don't follow it you don't get a Citadel embassy and thus don't get to add items to the agenda of the Council and get kick out of the Citadel system. If one was at war with a party that didn't follow it (either as a signatory or just as a polite nod to the Citadel) then a nation would have good cause to call on aid. (Also in case of an existential war it would probably be suspended) In addition the need for dreadnoughts is actually low enough that many don't build all the ones they can so frankly no one cares that much. The treaty is purely an arms control agreement made after the Krogan rebellions. Unless someone has to many dreadnoughts it probably won't come up unless something like the Rachni, or Krogans happens again (or the Reapers).

I point you to the Geth invasion of 2183 in canon. Which could be sum up as, "You can take them, you've been saying how ready you are for the galactic stage right? We don't want to piss of the Terminus powers and us moving a fleet in there would do that." (Personally I believe that this was quickly followed by back room panicking about the Geth invading enmass and later lots of sighs of relief that the Geth were only playing around) Of course there may have been a fair amount of political issues at home where politician feared calling on/receiving the aid of alien powers for fear of losing support (Yay politics).

Anyway based on may understanding, The actions of the big three:
To start of with none of the have any formal alliance with the SA, their trade partners and the rulers of (for lack of a better term) an economic zone the SA really likes being a member of. So they actually have zero obligation to get involved. The SA has NO ALLIES. Unless there's a canon source I missed?

The Salarians would avoid committing to any conflict in an major way for as long as they can. That doesn't mean they wouldn't have the STG support the side they liked more though. As well as the usual politician says we're cheering for you stuff and some sorts of aid.

The Asari are a direct democracy and like any stable democracy it's designed to be slow unless it's very important. There's going to be arguments, debates, votes. Some of the individual governments and huntress bands may make up their minds on the issue long before the collective Asari Republics do.

The Turians are the most unified and militaristic group their the most ready, willing and able of the big three to get into a war. However they don't really like humanity of the SA they think they're rash, impulsive, and really need to get knocked down a peg or two. Humanity has been expanding far more rapidly than anyone expected into the Terminus, sure you've got a better rep on the "humans are aggressive front" than canon*, but the inability to defend it's colonies makes the SA look like idiots to the Turians.

*Human these days rep is more extremely expansionist, ambitious and very aggressive when pissed off.

The biggest problem is the fact that the three of them hate and fear true war to a fault. They've seen the results. Ganging up on the Batarians is very likely to cause them to try to take everyone they can down with them. MAD doesn't work when the other guy is already being destroyed. Bad enough to begin with, but if they know where more "hidden" relays are... (or if whatever trick the Batarians used can reach them) then that could mean terrible things. Oh and there afraid of pissing of the Terminus powers which moving fleets into that area would apparently do (Number one reason I dislike ME2, they made the Terminus lame and made a lot of the plot of ME1 sound silly)

I'm going to address this stuff and the impact of your past actions on this in the next news section.

*I can't find the numbers on the RoF increase, although I think it was 10x normal speed, but here is the quote that says we have it:

I am 99% certain that is correct.

@Hoyr - Would there be any delays or cost increases to stacking Factory Is atop each other? I figure we could quite easily build stacks of 25 without issue.

*Does a lot of thinking, and uses a spread sheet* Okay so here's the thing... your main limit these days is time. Money is less of a thing it'll come with time. Dropping build time to much... is going to have an overwhelming feedback effect. You can pull of something like Earthfall at least 3 more times (Thessia, Sur'Kesh, Palivan). Letting you get the benefit near instantly? Oh fucking hell no, doing this would basically give you what you want two quarters early and it's almost three! x4 cost/upkeep isn't a penalty when it doesn't hurt you in anyway and in fact helps. There will be no faster building of factories at least with out a lot of spreadsheet work. What was the profit you got on production to credits for citadel arc-reactors sales again? I mathed with the base exchange value... or the ship one that'd be good too.

On a side note you can have ~140,000 ground factories max galacticly until you create a few fully populated core planets (How you'd do that I do not know) or convince me to raise the limit some how.

Hmm... sad, this sort of thing might have been an interesting tech for a Research Hero.

Definitely plans to do that. The only question is if Factory IIIs can be used to pump out starship parts or if Shipyards are required. Depending upon the answer we might have to postpone Project Earthfall a quarter and instead go with Shipyards Everywhere and throw up a hundred small Shipyards scattered across Human space.

We've talked about this IIRC. The answer is yes, but some % should be shipyards IDK... lazy answer 10% (Or something, maybe 5%?)

Eh. I'm not too sure on that. Take one of our Factory IIIs for instance; it requires two hundred million in upkeep per year so if half of that went to personnel that's a hundred million. Even our Researchers only get 80k/yr, which on reflection seems low so they definitely deserve that pay rise, but if we say the average wage for Factory personnel is 100k/yr then we'd need a thousand employees to hit the 100mill mark, two thousand for the more reasonable 50k/yr, which seems like a lot considering all the advanced automation our factories are supposed to have.

Could you two debate it for me please? :)

Be fair; we don't know what the Council will say yet.

Neat fact the Council has no legal ability to tell their governments what to do. Generally their governments go along with whatever they say though.

See Council response to the Geth and Saren for some insight on the Council's response. Of course it maybe different because of the current circumstances.

even they can't ignore that the Batarians managed to use a secret Relay to hijack the Relay network

Uh the Batarians have literally done nothing wrong (that anyone can prove), other than stating a war. I'm very confused as to were this came from. In summary the laws are don't activate Primary Relays if you don't know where they go. Don't cause harm to the Relays we need them (no trying to break them, no experimenting with the control switches etc). Whatever happened didn't break those Relays and the Batarians could have found out how to do something odd without breaking the laws. If whatever the Batarians did can be used against more than the SA it's a threat sure... but it's not breaking a law. Not that the Batarians are members anymore so the laws don't count for them. The Citadel isn't willing to enforce their laws in the Terminus by force most of the time, nor is it their job to protect the Alliance.

Unless I missed detail in canon about those laws... pretty sure I got everything.

if they manage to ignore that less than 20 years after the Turians attacked humanity in the First Contact War

The first contact war on the other had was the Turians directly responding to a Primary Relay in Citadel Space being activated. Even them though it was found that the Turians went to far an they agreed to pay reparations. I would have to wonder what would have happened if the Turians hadn't invaded.

Edit: Any updates have been delayed by math and reviewing ME's political situation. *Sigh*
 
Last edited:
That reminds me....

If we take what happened to Pluto when the Charon Relay 'snapped' back into position, it's likely that any ME field the Mass Relay generates does not lower it's overall mass.

Or at least, not enough for it to have zero effect on planetary bodies.

Wouldn't that mean that a Gravitational Wave Sensor grid would be able to pick them up, once you track down all the exoplanets in the system and modify the calculations?

Heck, if you're lucky, you would probably get a unactive Mass Relay on your first try.
 
While true, I have to wonder how hard it would be to "pulse" TIR shields: have the TIR part on for ~70-90% of the time, and off only when the sensors are taking a reading?

The real question if how effective that would be. As I understand it the current paradigm of using lasers in wide-beam mode to burn out shield emitters combined with the lasers being turreted rather then fixed makes dodging pretty damn hard. So from that perspective it's likely an all or nothing situation.

Plus we're all ignoring the fact that TIR is a 1,600RP tech. That's a sign it's a really complex and advanced piece of technology. For comparison things like Artificial Biotics and power armor with FTL drives are at the same level.

True, but if 20 years is the maximum reasonable service life of a military space frame why is that the Migrant Fleet has had ships, including implied military ships, that have lasted centuries?

The Migrant Fleet is full of ships that are basically held together with duct tape. There is a reason they do terribly against the Geth, besides the Geth just being badass. I also suspect that 20 years is probably more the point the ship needs a complete overhaul and that Batarians economy and government is such that it is both economically and politically easier to 'decommission' ships for 'civilian' use instead of giving them the repairs needed to bring them up to being truly military grade.

Also on a side note I fully expect them to field armies of slaves with cheap guns as cannon fodder, naturally they'd strap explosive collars to them to keep them in line.

Luckily this is already a problem we faced on Anhur. It's why the Tribulus Drone:
PI-SDC-02A
Role -
Anti-Personnel and Anti-Vehicle duties

Weaponry
  • 6x 800kN Repulsors
  • 6x Containment Foam Sprayers
  • Containment Foam (700L)
Defensive Systems
  • 6x 800kN Repulsors
Power System
  • 1x Paragon Industries Arc Reactors (25GW)
Engine System
  • 6x 800kN Repulsors
Additional Systems
  • Advanced Paragon Industries VI system providing full Fire Control as well as Remote and Autonomous operation.
Cost - 1,700,000cr
Production - 11pr

Description:
Designed to harmlessly incapacitate enemy combatants with Paragon Industries' revolutionary Containment Foam the Tribulus is the solution to the age old question of how to morally fight a conscript army. At the same time the Tribulus is so much more. From stopping vehicles in their tracks, to creating makeshift barriers, to safely containing violent mobs the Tribulus is one of the most versatile drones in existence.

I had to do a bunch of messing around with numbers to get the current set but I'm quite happy with it.

Mass:
A 25GW Arc Reactor is 5 times more powerful then a normal Arc Reactor which means 5x the volume and hence 5x the mass so with a 5GW Arc Reactor massing 1kg a 25GW one masses 5kg.

Similarly a 800kN Repulsor is 32x larger then a 25kN Repulsor for 32x the mass. Giving us 32kg per Repulsor or 192kg in total.

With some googling I found an expanding foam with a density of ~0.9kg/L so at 700L we get exactly 625kg.

All Combined we get 822kg.

Acceleration:
Force = Mass * Acceleration
Acceleration = Force / Mass

Force = 800,000N
Mass = 822kg

Acceleration = 800,000/822
Acceleration = 973m/s/s

I think being able accelerate almost as fast as a Sprint Missile is more then enough for a dodge based vehicle.

Volume:
So I went with a one cubic meter volume since I wanted to ensure there was sufficient carrying capacity for the Tribulus to have some combat endurance. With normal Repulsors and Arc Reactors each having a volume of 0.000524m^2 the larger versions here would have volumes of 0.016768m^3 and 0.00262m^2 respectively.

That gives all six Repulsors plus Arc Reactor a volume of 0.103228m^2 leaving 0.896772m^2 for other stuff. I figured that with sprayers, tanks, pipes, electronics, ect about 80% of the remaining volume could go to the actual containment foam.

That gives us 0.7174176m^3 or 717.4176L which I rounded down to 700L.

Cost:
The Repulsors and Arc Reactors were the easy bits. Repulsors are each 32x the base (1,600,000cr + 9.6pr) and the Arc Reactor is 5x the base (250,000cr + 1.5pr) for a combined cost of 9,850,000cr + 11.1pr. That left the question of the Containment Foam and Sprayers.

I figured my best bet was going with the numbers for the Flamer. Six Flamers comes to 30,000cr + 0.5pr. Added in to the Repulsor + Arc Reactor cost gives 1,630,000cr and 10.1pr. I figured upping it to 1,700,000cr and 11pr would cover any Containment Foam not already covered in the cost of the Sprayers.
was created. ParSec should have 5,000 by the end of the quarter and we can easily produce more for both them and the Alliance if needed.

I point you to the Geth invasion of 2183 in canon. Which could be sum up as, "You can take them, you've been saying how ready you are for the galactic stage right? We don't want to piss of the Terminus powers and us moving a fleet in there would do that." (Personally I believe that this was quickly followed by back room panicking about the Geth invading enmass and later lots of sighs of relief that the Geth were only playing around) Of course there may have been a fair amount of political issues at home where politician feared calling on/receiving the aid of alien powers for fear of losing support (Yay politics).

I suspect that we mostly a case of "HOLYSHITGETH!!!" on the Council's part. They probably threw humanity to the wolves Geth for two reasons:
1) The Geth hadn't actually done anything that serious yet. Sure attacking Eden Prime wasn't great but it's only got 3.7 million people, even factoring in Therum (34,000 ), Feroes (300), and Noveria (361,400) that puts the total at barely over four million people being threatened. It's not like they were even bombing the planets from orbit. So in reality at most a hundred or two thousand people had be killed or really had their lives threatened. That ain't much to the trillions living in Citadel Space.

2) From the above the Council was likely hoping that the Geth would be content with fucking with the Humans, who (going by their reputation) likely did something to provoke the Geth anyway, and go home after their fun was done. Half a million, even a million, people is a very cheap price to pay for keeping a Von Neumann swarm from exterminating everyone. They were willing to let hundreds of millions of Quarians die in the Geth War for what were very probably the same reasons.

The biggest problem is the fact that the three of them hate and fear true war to a fault. They've seen the results. Ganging up on the Batarians is very likely to cause them to try to take everyone they can down with them. MAD doesn't work when the other guy is already being destroyed. Bad enough to begin with, but if they know where more "hidden" relays are... (or if whatever trick the Batarians used can reach them) then that could mean terrible things. Oh and there afraid of pissing of the Terminus powers which moving fleets into that area would apparently do (Number one reason I dislike ME2, they made the Terminus lame and made a lot of the plot of ME1 sound silly)

Except, as I've mentioned before, if you look at the background stuff of ME1 it really felt like the Council was trying to use the Alliance to destroy the Hegemony, much like they did with the Krogans against the Rachni, since the centuries of trying to diplomatically stop the Batarian's slaving ways had already failed. The whole Reaper thing just derailed a decades, at least since 2160 with them tactically approving/supporting human expansion into the Skyllian Verge, long plan to provoke such a war. The fact that such a war would likely cripple the Alliance, in canon anyway, for years/decades while they recovered was probably considered a bonus.

So I'd say it's less a matter of them not wanting such a war and more that their plans have finally been fulfilled. There is no way the Council will intervene now that their plot to eliminate the Batarians as an issue without needing to lift a finger is finally underway. About the only downside for them would be that if anything the Shepard_Quest!Alliance is going to grow stronger not weaker from this. Even that is offset by the improved reputation of humanity and that they still have a number of diplomatic tools with which to keep the Alliance happy, like making someone the first human Spectre.

*Does a lot of thinking, and uses a spread sheet* Okay so here's the thing... your main limit these days is time. Money is less of a thing it'll come with time. Dropping build time to much... is going to have an overwhelming feedback effect. You can pull of something like Earthfall at least 3 more times (Thessia, Sur'Kesh, Palivan). Letting you get the benefit near instantly? Oh fucking hell no, doing this would basically give you what you want two quarters early and it's almost three! x4 cost/upkeep isn't a penalty when it doesn't hurt you in anyway and in fact helps. There will be no faster building of factories at least with out a lot of spreadsheet work.

I figured as much when I did the math. With that 10% mix of Shipyards to Factories you mentioned we could easily build 72,000 Factory Is over the next two quarters, limiting factor being income, and be pumping out 392 LLPs per quarter starting 2175-Q1 with about half that production coming online in 2174-Q4.

What was the profit you got on production to credits for citadel arc-reactors sales again? I mathed with the base exchange value... or the ship one that'd be good too.

We sell Arc Reactors to Citadel Space for 250,000 a pop. That means Gen Is give 666,666.67cr/pr and Gen IIs give 3,133,333.33cr/pr.

Could you two debate it for me please? :)

I'm always happy to debate things like this.

Edit: Any updates have been delayed by math and reviewing ME's political situation. *Sigh*

You're the one who decided a war was a good idea! Don't you know? War is just another political tool, albeit a high-risk/high-reward one. Of course you're going to have to do a ton of analysis and review of the political environment of the Mass Effect universe.
 
How valuable would a shipbuilding contract for the Migrant Fleet be?

Also, you know what would be interesting? If we told the Hanar to like, slow down their military buildup, they have time, and also I wonder if we would be able to get the Hanar to think about getting their new navy recruits to do time as "unpaid interns" on persec ships.
 
On the subject of the alliances - by the time of the first game humans had at least something resembling an alliance with turians. You don't participate in joint military R&D and build secret ships together without something like one.

Also, a thought - how were batarians planning to get back to their territory? Ok, they got to Earth using Alpha Relay bypassing everything else. Let's assume they are at least somewhat successful in their first strike. Or even not, but aren't completely destroyed. How are they going back? Even if they steamroll human opposition while they retreat, what does their path not take them through any asari/turian/salarian territory at all?
 
On the subject of the alliances - by the time of the first game humans had at least something resembling an alliance with turians. You don't participate in joint military R&D and build secret ships together without something like one.

Also, a thought - how were batarians planning to get back to their territory? Ok, they got to Earth using Alpha Relay bypassing everything else. Let's assume they are at least somewhat successful in their first strike. Or even not, but aren't completely destroyed. How are they going back? Even if they steamroll human opposition while they retreat, what does their path not take them through any asari/turian/salarian territory at all?
I think they were trying to simultaneously cripple the Alliance by taking chokepoints and destroying industries, and to create beachheads. No need to head back to Batarian territory when you can just continually pour reinforcements through. They can go back when the war's won.

EDIT: Given The Alliance's economic and technological advantage the Batarians can't hope to win a protracted war. Their only chance of winning was to strike critical blows in the opening phase of the war. Since that failed miserably, the Hegemony is on borrowed time at best.
 
Last edited:
Uh the Batarians have literally done nothing wrong (that anyone can prove), other than stating a war. I'm very confused as to were this came from. In summary the laws are don't activate Primary Relays if you don't know where they go. Don't cause harm to the Relays we need them (no trying to break them, no experimenting with the control switches etc). Whatever happened didn't break those Relays and the Batarians could have found out how to do something odd without breaking the laws. If whatever the Batarians did can be used against more than the SA it's a threat sure... but it's not breaking a law. Not that the Batarians are members anymore so the laws don't count for them. The Citadel isn't willing to enforce their laws in the Terminus by force most of the time, nor is it their job to protect the Alliance.
The problem is that the Batarians bypassed Arcturus to attack Earth. Arcturus was built specifically because it was a choke point: Charon, as described, is actually a primary relay, since it only has one destination (Arcturus), which is weird and indicates that Sol probably has a few secondary Relays frozen out in the Oort Cloud somewhere, but that's how the topography works out. What the Batarians did just flew in the face of 2,000 years of Council understanding of how the Relays operate. From their perspective, the Batarians just worked out how to change how a Primary Relay works, which means the Council should be shitting themselves over whether the Batarians are about to take their grievances over hundreds of years of Council sanctions and declare war on the galaxy, destroying the Relay network in the process.

On top of that is the fact that the Batarians, upon invading the garden world Mindoir, unleashed a swarm of nuclear weapons. Yes, they weren't large enough to technically be Tier III WMDs, indeed, they weren't even fission nukes, but Landing and the surrounding farmland at least are going to be glowing in the dark for the next 100 years without serious cleanup efforts. We're just lucky that we have Peak Human ready to keep everyone in the city from being affected by chronic radiation exposure. Makes me wonder how much of Earth is irradiated at this point.

Yes, there's ways for the Council to weasel their way out of having to do anything in response, but what's being made clear here is that the Batarians don't seem to have any problem violating both the letter and the spirit of the rules of war, as have been set down since the Krogan Rebellion. Not acting quickly and decisively in this matter, especially when the Council did act quickly and decisively during the First Contact War against the very species who is being victimized here, again, is going to confirm in most people's eyes that the Council is either completely incompetent as a whole, or has a specific, unseemly anti-human bias at a time when humanity is being fashionably perceived as a persecuted minority who have done nothing to deserve the trials and tribulations heaped on their heads.

So I'd say it's less a matter of them not wanting such a war and more that their plans have finally been fulfilled. There is no way the Council will intervene now that their plot to eliminate the Batarians as an issue without needing to lift a finger is finally underway. About the only downside for them would be that if anything the Shepard_Quest!Alliance is going to grow stronger not weaker from this. Even that is offset by the improved reputation of humanity and that they still have a number of diplomatic tools with which to keep the Alliance happy, like making someone the first human Spectre.
Which would be perfect, except the Batarians screwed everything up, as they are wont to do, by escalating in such a way as to destabilize the entire galaxy. In other words, the Council signed up for a proxy war between space-Iran and space-Israel, but now space-Iran has actually nuked space-Israel. What is the rest of the galactic community going to do now?

The real question if how effective that would be. As I understand it the current paradigm of using lasers in wide-beam mode to burn out shield emitters combined with the lasers being turreted rather then fixed makes dodging pretty damn hard. So from that perspective it's likely an all or nothing situation.
The idea here is to lower the power that can be delivered to the defender's emitters, thereby lowering the effective range of the laser weapons back to the "knife fight" ranges that starships normally operate at. This really only applies to the current "gigawatt lasers and nothing else" tech level; once we pick up UV lasers we'll be able to outrange an enemy's MAC weapons even with this hacked-together 90% solution. That's actually why I want to pick up UV lasers ASAP; I figure it'll take about 6-9 months before the Batarians figure out this 90% TIR shield, and we need to have a response ready.

Plus we're all ignoring the fact that TIR is a 1,600RP tech. That's a sign it's a really complex and advanced piece of technology. For comparison things like Artificial Biotics and power armor with FTL drives are at the same level.
That's TIR stealth; basically the Normandy. I'm talking about TIR shielding, which isn't even listed separately as a tech, but Hoyr previously mentioned it's somewhere around a 400RP tech.
Also, you know what would be interesting? If we told the Hanar to like, slow down their military buildup, they have time, and also I wonder if we would be able to get the Hanar to think about getting their new navy recruits to do time as "unpaid interns" on persec ships.
Um, definitely no to the later; right now we don't want to do anything that can even casually be considered slavery or indentured servitude, given our strident anti-slavery stance, and unpaid interns at a multi-trillion credit company won't play well.

And we actually want the Hanar to have their military buildup; they'll be a useful ally, now that they're engaging in ways that the Alliance can support more openly. We just want them to do it in a way that won't cause the total economic collapse of their civilization.

How valuable would a shipbuilding contract for the Migrant Fleet be?
Depends on what you mean. The Quarians learn starship engineering from the cradle; a Quarian on her Pilgrimage likely knows more about engineering than a human engineer is ever likely to learn in his lifetime. Quarian engineers would be awesome employees at our super-agile factories, and their researchers are likely to have unique insights in our labs. At the same time, the Quarians as a whole have a not-undeserved reputation as technology thieves, and are the people who hung a Sword of Damocles over the entire galaxy in the form of the Geth. The later have gotten the Quarians obsessed with redeeming themselves, to the point that they make what the rest of the galaxy see as ill-advised attempts to probe and study the Geth in order to control or destroy them.

Basically: it's a delicate situation.

And we like the Geth. They do not intentionally infiltrate.
They actually do; along with other Geth, Legion is, at this very moment, infiltrating the Citadel extranet in order to research the organic species of the galaxy. In canon he sort of "goes native" and becomes a Shepard fan, even wearing a salvaged piece of Shepard's armor on the mission where he's recruited for ME2.
 
Last edited:
Would selling the frigates to the Hanar via a financing agreement be out of the question? Doesn't break the bank, and let's them do the buildup at max speed.
 
Um, definitely no to the later; right now we don't want to do anything that can even casually be considered slavery or indentured servitude, given our strident anti-slavery stance, and unpaid interns at a multi-trillion credit company won't play well.
I don't mean in an indentured servitude way, I mean letting some approved, volunteering, aspiring hanar recruits run(float?) around on some ParSec ships during learning the ropes. We wouldn't send them into battle, they'd just hang around on the ships during initial working up, training, and trials just to help them get used to working on a warship. We could at least offset some of the costs of training, save the Hanar some money.

It would also help our argument to get them to slow down their buildup to just as many ships as they have trained crews. We can limit the number of crews at a time "to ensure quality of education" in case their economy starts straining.

They actually do; along with other Geth, Legion is, at this very moment, infiltrating the Citadel extranet in order to research the organic species of the galaxy. In canon he sort of "goes native" and becomes a Shepard fan, even wearing a salvaged piece of Shepard's armor on the mission where he's recruited for ME2.
If It's in plain sight, it's not infiltration.
 
When have they done that?
Just now:
As you work you hear the sound of several loud explosions. Your comm activates, "Doctor, that was the enemy using fusion missiles to blast the drone wall. Are those missiles working? I have a feeling they maybe needed soon"

"Yes, just finishing with the anti-fighter missiles, they'll work on missiles well enough."

You look over the situation. The attacking fighters have no reason to enter range of Landing's GARDIAN weapons; atmospheric missiles have the range to be fired well out of GARDIAN laser reach. This allows the fighters to attack repetitively with impunity.

When the first wave of missiles, totaling nearly four thousand neared the wall of drones several exploded into shaped cones of super-heated plasma just before the range of the drone's repulsors. The Aspidai's shields could not survive the blast, opening a gaping hole for the missiles to stream though.

-103 Aspidai
-207 Accipiters


The GARDIAN lasers destroyed large parts of the missile swarm assisted by several drones deployed to guard the installations. However, a few got though detonating into spears of hyper-velocity plasma which slam into the shields of Landing's GARDIAN laser installations. The shields on the installation closest to the landed carrier have failed and the carrier's guns have begun to target the installations directly.

Commander Mihailovic has pulled the drones further back into the envelope of the GARDIAN system's lasers, making it harder for missiles targeted at them to reach them, but also reducing their ability to counter missiles attacks.

A second wave of missiles is launched from a new group of fighters, no doubt the first is rearming. Again the lasers eat into the swarm depleting their numbers, ten Hydra missiles add their firepower to stopping the swarm. This time the missiles are stopped before they can hit any of their targets, but the carrier's guns still pound the installations. Should the GARDIAN installations fail under this barrage Landing will no doubt fall no long after.

-10 Hydras

The good news is that in space another enemy cruiser and frigate have been destroyed. One of your Pyndas has been forced to pull back under heavy fire, but will probably return before long.

There is a brief period where nothing happens as the carrier drops more troops and the fighters rearm. However, the pause does not last for long, a third wave of missiles is inbound.
The Batarians just launched tens of thousands of fusion warheads at Landing. Now, sure, they're not planet-killers; heck, they aren't even fission bombs that leave atomized heavy elements everywhere. Unfortunately, relativistic plasma streams still poison the environment thanks to nuclear transmutation. Landing and the area around it is now a Superfund site, including our parents' farm which is not going to be suitable as farmland any time soon. Landing itself is only inhabitable because PI can provide medical nanites to prevent and reverse the damage from long-term radiation exposure that will occur from living there, and can probably adapt our Bioforming tech to slowly leech the irradiated contaminants from the soil over months and years instead of decades.
 
Last edited:
I forgot to argue this before; I'm not so sure. Yes TIR is the perfect defense against lasers however it comes with some significant downsides. Most notably that it renders the ship completely blind to the outside world and it traps all the ship's radiated heat inside.

Both TIR designs discussed trap the heat in the TIR layer not with the ship. Purging that layer safely is rather important.

I suspect that we mostly a case of "HOLYSHITGETH!!!" on the Council's part. They probably threw humanity to the wolves Geth for two reasons:

I do consider that part of the reasoning. However the Council isn't willing to send a single SA stealth ship to check out a potential superweapon that requires getting close to the Terminus/Traverse border to take a relay. So the not pissing of the Terminus must be a core factor. It's also called out in some of the description of the political landscape of the Traverse in ME1.

Except, as I've mentioned before, if you look at the background stuff of ME1 it really felt like the Council was trying to use the Alliance to destroy the Hegemony, much like they did with the Krogans against the Rachni, since the centuries of trying to diplomatically stop the Batarian's slaving ways had already failed.

The only thing I've found is the Council being okay with the SA colonizing the Attican Traverse because they can stabilize the Region without pissing the Terminus powers off. If you have any references souces for the Hegemeny being a target I'd be all ears.

This is the Citadel channeling the SA's expansionist tendencies against the more aggressive factions of the Terminus which maybe what you're remembering:
"Unwilling to engage in an all-out war against the Terminus Systems, the Citadel has adopted a military non-interference policy in the region. However, the Council makes no objection to the Systems Alliance's expansion in the Traverse, because the large Alliance Navy can settle unstable regions without the Council needing to get involved."

Here's the rough timeline of SA/Hegemony interaction:
2157 First Contact War Occurs
2157- Humanity begins rapid expansion (and gets a bad reputation for being aggressive/expansionist)
Early 2160's Humanity rapid expansion reaches into the Skyllian Verge an area the Hegemony has been colonizing and developing.
2160's SA and Hegemony clash over Verge colonization. The Hegemony is unable to stop SA expansion. Unwilling to commit to a war the Hegemony resorts to funding raiders.
2170 Mindoir Attacked
2171 Unable to militarily stop human expansion into space they consider theirs the Hegemony asks the Citadel to declare the the space an area of "batarian interest". The Council says no* and the Hegemony leaves the Citadel in protest.
2171-2176 Hegemony funds raiders and the SA engages in a pirate suppression campaign.
2176 Hegemony funded Terminus Factions annoyed at the suppression campaigns attack Elysium in the Skyllian Blitz.
2178 The SA's anti-pirate campaign culminates in an assault on the moon of Torfan.


Stuff in italics has been effected by the quest if not completely butterflied away.

*Up until this point the we have no evidence of the Council supporting the SA over the Hegemony for anything. Here though we must wonder, why? Here are some options which are not necessarily exclusive or extensive: 1) The Council doesn't want the Batarians to expand. Possible but there's still the entire Traverse for them to go to. 2) The Council doesn't like the Batarians. Well duh there's a lot of bad history there. 3) The Skyllian Verge is large and declaring it all to be the Batarians' would be silly. 4) The Council didn't want to annoy the SA pointlessly. Humanity had shown at that point it was relentlessly expansionist and the Skyllian Verge is the closest part of space that has good places to colonize. Banning humanity from the area entirely would needlessly piss them of.

Ultimately I just don't see the Council using the SA as a tool against the Batarians at least an more than nations usually do. As far as I can tell the SA did a lot of things that pissed the Batarians off (recall that SA and Hegemony space overlap a lot) and the Council denied an unreasonable demand from a group they didn't like. If the Batarians had asked to divy up the Verge in a diplomatic conference... well that might have worked.

Unless I missed something...?

You're the one who decided a war was a good idea! Don't you know? War is just another political tool, albeit a high-risk/high-reward one. Of course you're going to have to do a ton of analysis and review of the political environment of the Mass Effect universe.

I did the political review because I was super confused by people thoughts. It doesn't match what I had in memory. I've only found evidence to reinforce my original thoughts. Hell turns out that the Citadel Council is basically a trade zone/economic area and diplomatic body that you have to follow the laws of to get the benefits of (Temptation to make EU, EEA and EFTA comparisons rising).

The math was expected of course. :)

Also, a thought - how were batarians planning to get back to their territory? Ok, they got to Earth using Alpha Relay bypassing everything else. Let's assume they are at least somewhat successful in their first strike. Or even not, but aren't completely destroyed. How are they going back? Even if they steamroll human opposition while they retreat, what does their path not take them through any asari/turian/salarian territory at all?

Nope the path back home doesn't go though any other races space. Hegemony space and Alliance space are basically inside one another. If you were to color a map it would be an ugly intermix of the two powers colors. The entire conflict is largely over some of the worst border gore ever.

On the subject of the alliances - by the time of the first game humans had at least something resembling an alliance with turians. You don't participate in joint military R&D and build secret ships together without something like one.

They're trade partners some parts of the government is trying to play nice with while at the same time both populations have a fair number of people that don't like the other side. The Codex specifically calls out the SA not having an alliance with the Turians or Salarians as of 2183 mostly due in no small part to racism. Nothing is specifically said about the Asari, but I'm leaning toward them also being trade partners.

The problem is that the Batarians bypassed Arcturus to attack Earth. Arcturus was built specifically because it was a choke point: Charon, as described, is actually a primary relay, since it only has one destination (Arcturus), which is weird and indicates that Sol probably has a few secondary Relays frozen out in the Oort Cloud somewhere, but that's how the topography works out. What the Batarians did just flew in the face of 2,000 years of Council understanding of how the Relays operate. From their perspective, the Batarians just worked out how to change how a Primary Relay works, which means the Council should be shitting themselves over whether the Batarians are about to take their grievances over hundreds of years of Council sanctions and declare war on the galaxy, destroying the Relay network in the process.

I may have been wrong about Charon only having one destination. I had always had the weird impression that it did and had been treating it as one in quest, however when I tried to verify that I was right I only found evidence that Arcturus was the first place the SA went. Consider that in RL Arturus is 36.7 Ly away which would be the most pointless primary relay ever (the rest of the Arcturus Stream is much further out). In addition the galaxy map has the earth relay linking to several areas other then Arcturus, not a good source but it is interesting (Or maybe the local cluster has a several Primary Relays in it?). So my bad... I think it's a actually a Secondary, don;t think it changes much other than a couple of lines... Feel free to correct me though.

Yes it's concerning that the Batarians having some secret way around, but they aren't destroying the Relays. They all still work. Yes people understanding of how the system works is upset. But the Batarians haven't broken anything. Where are you getting the whole "destroying the relay net work in the process". Worst case (assuming the Charon relay is a Primary) the Batarians figured out how to make a primary relay receive like a secondary relay mode for a bit (It worked exactly like it used to after the Batarians left). Note that all the relays primary and secondary are identical in appearance. Thus the conclusion would be that relays were always meant to switch modes. To bad they didn't come with a manual. :) Thankfully the network appears to be mostly self-sustaining.

That's TIR stealth; basically the Normandy. I'm talking about TIR shielding, which isn't even listed separately as a tech, but Hoyr previously mentioned it's somewhere around a 400RP tech.

There is a good anti-laser shielding tech living in Dor's tree too. It's probably the best you'll get with ME fieds.

When have they done that?

In the attack they used a lot of something based on the Casaba Howitzer design. In short its a bomb powered particle beam. However he design uses a fusion warhead and mass effect field. The design is a great for atmospheric missiles as it gives the missile "range". You anti-ship missiles use a more developed version of this technology.

If the fusion warhead used D-He3 then there would be no direct neutron or gamma ray production, however some secondary reactions may produce neutrons. In a stable reaction its about 5% of the energy. (Note that in the RL warheads the D-D or D-T reactions are 80% to 66% neutrons regardless of stabilitiy) This isn't a stable reaction so less neutrons would be produced. It's not a lot of fallout but the numbers will add up to a bit. Note that a large number of the missiles were destroyed and thus did not cause any fallout. They all did have a small amount of eezo though.
 
Back
Top