I dunno if a reprocessed person can be considered a real person though; there is a reason why it's used as a punishment
I don't think there's any doubt that many reprocessed are, in fact, people; there's a lot of possibilities short of Series P.

For instance, I don't think there's any question that Rose is a person.

That said, they (pretty much by definition) aren't the same people. And I'm willing to treat potential people a lot more cavalierly than actual ones.
 
I don't think there's any doubt that many reprocessed are, in fact, people; there's a lot of possibilities short of Series P.
For instance, I don't think there's any question that Rose is a person.
That said, they (pretty much by definition) aren't the same people. And I'm willing to treat potential people a lot more cavalierly than actual ones.
Oh, certainly; I agree there are degrees of reprocessing.
But frankly, I don't see veteran Rogue Council agents getting any option better than Series P-ification.
And I don't consider those to be people.
 
Donald's Decision
[X] Execute (+Feeling Moderately Less Awful)
->[X] And always feel a little doubt over whether you could have managed to argue them down when they insisted on high-level reprocessing
-->[X] Talk to Kessler about it. He indicated that he understands some of what you are going through and could probably provide some good advice. Also, after this, you are going to need a drinking buddy who can keep up with you.

The Next Step
[X] Syndicate: Quid Pro Quo

The carrot here isn't those resources at the end. It's keeping the Union moderate. That's what we were pushing for during our Werewolf Hunt, and seems to be a major goal of ours in the long term. Let's keep with that.
 
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[x] Execute (+Feeling Moderately Less Awful)
[x] And always feel a little doubt over whether you could have managed to argue them down when they insisted on high-level reprocessing

[x] Dealing with Little Miss Fanfic
[x] Poor Hannah, dragged onto a vacation with a bunch of minders, even if they are very good-looking combat constructs
[x] Maybe she should consider a career in science fiction?

[x] Henriette confronting Rose about her nature as a horrible sadistic sexmurder monster
[x] And making Rose cry
[x] And accepting her as she is

[x] Syndicate: Quid Pro Quo
 
I'm going to make an argument in favor of [] Execute that isn't simply "let's not cause internal problems for our amalgam" or "oh no, let's not put Donald under more pressure."

The shadow war we're having with Threat Null at the moment is about philosophies. Ethics. Feelings.

If we think that grinding away all human emotion, individuality, etc in the name of greater power and efficiency is the right way to do things, we have a standing invitation available. Two, even!

But so far we've been about not trying to force people to be what we want them to. Making compromises to make others buy into what we want to do rather than spending the effort to make them into a square peg that fits in a square hole. See: Donald, Rose, Henriette, Serafina. We've made that work.

And all of that counts when we're trying to influence the Union away from Threat Null.

To win our war, here, we have to walk a path that isn't the one Threat Null offers, and make it work. Prove that it can work. Every time we default to using Threat Null's methods, we're saying "we're irrationally throwing a tantrum because we don't like the way Control is doing things, but when it comes down to it, they're right."

And so we should oppose the use of Series P and similar because using hard power costs us in soft power: if even Jamelia has problems with Series P - if Kessler and Donald object to "reprocessing" - we can expect that moderate Traditionalists will have even worse reactions.

We don't want to find our hypocracy being used as a focus for Mind effects against our team the next time we get in a fight with Panopticon.
 
Okay, so Rose destroyed a Paradox Spirit with her bare hands. Wat.

[X] Spare

The Actual Vacation
[X] Dealing with Little Miss Fanfic
->[X] Poor Hannah, dragged onto a vacation with a bunch of minders, even if they are very good-looking combat constructs

Why do her minders have to be stupidly good looking Progenitors? Stupid Progenitors.

[X] Henriette confronting Rose about her nature as a horrible sadistic sexmurder monster
->[X] And making Rose cry
->[X] While attempting to accept her as she is

Henriette cannot into counseling. Go and study your hyperpsychology texts properly, Henriette!

[X] Henriette/Antoinette working up the courage to talk to Kessler about the Bad Old Days of Iteration X
->[X] All the shiny toys in the Union aren't worth losing your soul.

Incredibly awkward moment between Serafina and Donald would be hilarious. I mean, Donald just killed his ex-girlfriend and is now with the adoptive mother of the Progenitor combat construct who might have a thing for him. Unfortunately we can only vote for three things, and this would probably be highly embarrassing and problematic if it got out.

[X] Panopticon: Parlay

Going to vote for the nice, not-so-relaxing (incredibly stressful) tea session/office politics session/hyperpsychological mindgame/mutual dismantling session/snarkoff.
 
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Donald's Decision
[X] Spare (+Resources)
->[X] And make some token protests
-->[X] Tip off a Syndicate economics-modelling programme which you happen to know is looking for assets to try to prevent future economic collapses through intensive future-forecasting and information gathering. The least you can do is try to get her used in a way which will actually help the Masses, rather than just as another programmed weapon.
->[X] And have Rose assure you it was the right decision
-->[X] Don't take that reassurance very well. This, more than Rose flipping out and killing a Paradox Spirit with her bare hands, reminds you of how different the two of you are.


The Actual Vacation
Choose two or three things to happen and/or to write-in about.

[X] Serafina warming up to Donald
->[X] At least giving him a chance with her daughter. As friends.

[X] Henriette confronting Rose about her nature as a horrible sadistic sexmurder monster
->[X] And accepting her as she is

[X] Henriette/Antoinette working up the courage to talk to Kessler about the Bad Old Days of Iteration X
->[X] All the shiny toys in the Union aren't worth losing your soul.

Antoinette would be neat, I agree, but I think she'd be more influential outside our Amalgam than in it.

As for the mission, I'm leaning towards [ ]Quid Pro Quo, but I'm honestly not sure.

EDIT: Changed votes. ES is right about what Donald would do, and we need a stable amalgam more than we need Little Miss Fanfic.
 
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[x] Spare (+Resources)
[x] And make some token protests
[x] And drink a lot to forget what you did
[x] And have Rose assure you it was the right decision​
We're in the middle of a Tribunal and I don't think we can give anyone excuses to doubt us right now. I'd be tempted to let the ex make her own choice, if we had a way to justify it, but we don't want Antoinette or security camera footage showing the world. Maybe inform them what's going to happen with a threat to shoot them if they try to escape? That seems doubtful.

[x] Henriette confronting Rose about her nature as a horrible sadistic sexmurder monster
[x] And accepting her as she is​
Rose-Henriette interactions are interesting and we haven't had enough of them.

[x] Henriette/Antoinette working up the courage to talk to Kessler about the Bad Old Days of Iteration X
[x] Was that the Pogrom?! What. Just... what.
[x] There are enemies that need killing, right? That's what Iterators are for, after all.
[x] But was it really like that? No mercy, no regret, just Death To Deviants?​

This seems like the most in character way to address this, and it probably should be addressed.

[x] Dealing with Little Miss Fanfic
[x] Poor Hannah, dragged onto a vacation with a bunch of minders, even if they are very good-looking combat constructs
[x] Maybe she should consider a career in science fiction?​
Little Miss Fanfic is going to get drafted for the obligatory beach volleyball game, and there's nothing she can do about it. Muahahaha! Later, we can trade her and a Hitmark to the Void Engineers for Elsa.

Okay, so some of this is that the other two options aren't very good. While Antoinette's sphere's are great, her character is terrible for our group. She's Henriette + Primium manufacture - Every opportunity for character growth in the last year. She has a useful role here in London that I don't think we want to take her away from, and she hurts the political power of the amalgam if she goes with us. As for the Serafina-Donald Interaction, I'm just not that thrilled with it.

As for our last choice, what exactly does "And if it takes Serafina and her troubling anti-Progrom tendencies out of the question in a way which creates zero suspicions of foul play... well that's just fine for him." It seems like he's asking us to kill Serafina, but that can't be right. Maybe he's hoping we all die? Avoiding the other three options makes this tempting, but I'm still rather leery of it.
 
As for our last choice, what exactly does "And if it takes Serafina and her troubling anti-Progrom tendencies out of the question in a way which creates zero suspicions of foul play... well that's just fine for him." It seems like he's asking us to kill Serafina, but that can't be right. Maybe he's hoping we all die? Avoiding the other three options makes this tempting, but I'm still rather leery of it.

I'm guessing a Uriah Gambit. The rest of our amalgam may or may not be collateral damage, but Rose almost certainly will.
 
As for our last choice, what exactly does "And if it takes Serafina and her troubling anti-Progrom tendencies out of the question in a way which creates zero suspicions of foul play... well that's just fine for him." It seems like he's asking us to kill Serafina, but that can't be right. Maybe he's hoping we all die? Avoiding the other three options makes this tempting, but I'm still rather leery of it.
He's a hardliner who would apparently like to be rid of potentially influential bleeding-hearts like Serafina. But he doesn't want it badly enough to actually actively kill them. Either she completes the mission or she fails horribly and dies. For an extra bonus she can complete it and die! It's a win-win! Unless she fails and manages to not die. That would be a lose-lose.
 
Donald's Decision
[*] Execute (+Feeling Moderately Less Awful)
[*] And always feel a little doubt over whether you could have managed to argue them down when they insisted on high-level reprocessing
Not much to add here that hasn't been said.

The Actual Vacation
[*] Actually formally recruiting another princess for the Belltower Home of Broken Girls
I've enjoyed the Henriette/Antoinette interaction thus far and that my main reason for voting for this. But a note to those saying that the sphere overlap is a bad thing: it also allows for easy match up for in concert effects, which given the way the dice seem to hate us, is a very nice thing to have.

[*] Henriette confronting Rose about her nature as a horrible sadistic sexmurder monster
[*] And accepting her as she is
This has been building for a while, and now seems a good point to address it since Henriette might have a new partner in snark. ...No, we really should not put Henriette, Rose and Antoinette all on the same mission with Jamellia, no matter how hilarious it would be.

[*] Henriette/Antoinette working up the courage to talk to Kessler about the Bad Old Days of Iteration X
[*] All the shiny toys in the Union aren't worth losing your soul.
This sounds cool. The past is always interesting, and having the girls learn a bit about why the senior members of the group really don't like those days is always a good thing, given Threat Null.

The Next Step
[*] Progenitors: The Heist
Going to deviate from everyone else's voting here because while the impending Syndicate strife Bad, I can't help but recall the last time we left a Threat Null agent free while we focused on other important stuff. I seem to remember it ending in 15 Biovargs hooked into an infinite power source. Lets not give our friendly neighborhood transhuman the chance to set the plot of Prototype underway while we're dealing with other stuff. One Case Ragnarok was bad enough.
 
How much can amalgam 451 protest high level reconditioning? It's not certain they'd be series-p. They could just be memory wiped and become a construct like rose.

Which is horrible, but they'd still be people.

Even if the p-series gives jamelia the creeps, rose doesn't. So there's levels of reconditioning that the amalgam would probally find better than execution.

Before voting on that, i'd like to know if these two get an automatic 'fate worse than death' regardless of how donald protests. Because if they can have new lives as something not horrible, than i'd rather not kill them.

It feels like there's an assumption that donald will automatically fail. Except it's from his pov and he's an unreliable narrator...so maybe not.
 
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In that case, let's not do that.
I'm not so sure, at least we know what we are getting into with this mission. Given that our mission options seem to be:

Progenitor: Attempt a near suicide mission only the main character could succeed on.

Panopticon: Attempt to not be convinced that Panopticon is full of great people who do great things.

Syndicate: Blow up the Syndicate at the behest of the Hardliners.

Syndicate: Shoot the enemies of the corrupt leadership.

That first one doesn't seem so bad.
 
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Anyway, first part. Donald's Virtue is Machine and his Vice is Hedonist - when it comes down to it, in times of uncertainty, he'll either Increase the Decadence Budget or power on through, overcoming his human weaknesses. It's who he is. He'll look at things and go "I hate the fact that I can see that she's done terrible things, that because she committed a terrorist act using Chechen patsies in the UK the UK is going to go and back Russia to the hilt, and that... fuck it, I'd be selfish if I wasted the potential asset just because we slept together in the past".

So he'll spare. He'll feel terrible about it, and he'll also take some certainty from the fact that "Personal isn't the same as importance" (regenning 2wp) and then later feel bad about it. And he'll try to channel this personal sacrifice into helping people. Like by petitioning Jamelia to get some mundane assets from the +Resources so he can channel those assets into good causes and try to undo the bad that both he and Karen did.

And he'll try to get Karen used for something like "her brain used in a supercomputer" rather than just Series-P combat asset use, because the former can be used to help the world more than just another obedient killer.

Donald's Decision

[X] Spare (+Resources)
[X] And make some token protests
[X] Tip off a Syndicate economics-modelling programme which you happen to know is looking for assets to try to prevent future economic collapses through intensive future-forecasting and information gathering. The least you can do is try to get her used in a way which will actually help the Masses, rather than just as another programmed weapon.​
[X] And have Rose assure you it was the right decision
[X] Don't take that reassurance very well. This, more than Rose flipping out and killing a Paradox Spirit with her bare hands, reminds you of how different the two of you are.​

Donald has a not-very-pleasant decision he has to make right here and now, in this garage filled with choking smoke. Rose is distracted as she pillages the LX-5 for medical supplies and Henriette and Antoinette are trying to fix the damage to the car so they can get out of here.

Which means he is momentarily not being watched.

Karen, as the woman he knew, is dead either way. Either he kills her now, or everything that made her her gets killed. Because the Union won't forgive something like this. The young ones... well, lots and lots of Technocrats spent a while as RDs. They're young. Brittle. And the Union knows how powerful forgiveness and kindness - tempered with implicit threats - can be.

But Karen? No. She won't change sides. She was a hardliner back in 2006, but not so hardline as to join the Rogue Council. Now she's only got more extreme. He could cut her throat with a bit of shrapnel, or break her neck and claim it was the impact from the Machine. Let her die herself.

Donald sighs. But he can't romanticise what she's done. He can remember their time together, yes. He can also remember the sound of gunshots from elsewhere in the hotel. This is going to be headline news as a terrorist attack on British soil. Since she used Chechen patsies, even more innocents are going to die as the West backs Russia further. She was more than willing to use teenage girls as young fanatics. And - he sighs again - he's focussing his thoughts on her. It'd be hypocritical in the extreme to still hand in the Trenchcoat Guy, but not her, just because they'd dated for a while.

He hates himself for this line of thought. It's why he's not really all that sad that he's been sidelined for promotions in the Syndicate, because it means he's in a position where he doesn't need to make this kind of decision much.

But here and now, he has to put his own feelings up against the cold logic and harsh realities of what she's done. And when he says it like that, no matter how much he hates himself for it, the choice is clear.

[Donald - Machine Virtue]

Personal isn't the same as important.

Donald squares his jaw. That's another debt on his conscience, and he's going to have to work to pay it off. But he'll live with it, just as he has with every other little compromise he's made. And one way he can do that is to stop the Union from using what they'll make from Karen as just a pet killer. He'll try to channel her towards a programme which will help the Masses. Like her brain being used in a hypertech computer designed to stop economic collapses. Maybe if he can have her used in something which'll pay off her debts for all the deaths she's caused, he won't feel so bad.

He looks around the smoke-choked garage, and locks eyes with Kessler, who's staring at him. "Doesn't feel great, does it?" the hulking man says. He's clearly been watching Donald. Drawing his own - accurate - conclusions about what's going through his head.

"No," Donald says wearily.

Kessler massages his brow. "I was back in 1991," he says softly. "My UDEI glitched and locked off all my more recent memories. I," he chuckles softly, "I thought Antoinette was her mother, and Henriette was her father. Alvin was a great flyboy. I'll need to go look up Comptroller Sylia and talk about ol' times." He sighs. "Guess I'm feeling a bit melancholic. Things were easier back then."

Donald stuffs his hands in his pockets. "I wouldn't know," he says. "I was still in junior school." He pauses. "So I guess things were easier. The worst I had to worry about was my math teacher."

"Ouch, man. Cold. Very cold."

The two men know this shallow display of humour is just an attempt to distract themselves. They still do it.
 
Donald's Decision
[ ] Execute (+Feeling Moderately Less Awful)

Shit. Okay, ES has convinced me.

[X] Spare (+Resources)
[X] And make some token protests
[X] Tip off a Syndicate economics-modelling programme which you happen to know is looking for assets to try to prevent future economic collapses through intensive future-forecasting and information gathering. The least you can do is try to get her used in a way which will actually help the Masses, rather than just as another programmed weapon.​
[X] And have Rose assure you it was the right decision
[X] Don't take that reassurance very well. This, more than Rose flipping out and killing a Paradox Spirit with her bare hands, reminds you of how different the two of you are.​

The Actual Vacation
[X] Serafina warming up to Donald
[X] At least giving him a chance with her daughter. As friends.​

[X] Henriette confronting Rose about her nature as a horrible sadistic sexmurder monster
[X] And accepting her as she is
[X] Which makes Rose cry (happy tears!)
[X] Which Serafina mistakes for the unhappy kind.
[X] Awkwardness ensues.​

[X] Henriette/Antoinette working up the courage to talk to Kessler about the Bad Old Days of Iteration X
[X] All the shiny toys in the Union aren't worth losing your soul.​

These seem amusing selections that resolve several of the awkward tensions in the Amalgam.

The Next Step
[ ] Progenitors: The Heist

Yeah, let's stay out of the Syndicate shakedown town. And stay the fuck away from the General.

Edit: No no no no no, staying away from General good, staying away from I-50-B31 better.
 
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[X] Spare (+Resources)
[X] And make some tken protests
[X] Tip off a Syndicate economics-modelling programme which you happen to know is looking for assets to try to prevent future economic collapses through intensive future-forecasting and information gathering. The least you can do is try to get her used in a way which will actually help the Masses, rather than just as another programmed weapon.
[X] And have Rose assure you it was the right decision
[X] Don't take that reassurance very well.

The Actual Vacation
[X] Serafina warming up to Donald
[X] At least giving him a chance with her daughter. As friends.

[X] Henriette confronting Rose about her nature as a horrible sadistic sexmurder monster
[X] And accepting her as she is
[X] Which makes Rose cry (happy tears!)
[X] Which Serafina mistakes for the unhappy kind.
[X] Awkwardness ensues.

[X] Henriette/Antoinette working up the courage to talk to Kessler about the Bad Old Days of Iteration X
[X] All the shiny toys in the Union aren't worth losing your soul.

The Next Step
[X] Progenitors: The Heist
 
Donald squares his jaw. That's another debt on his conscience, and he's going to have to work to pay it off. But he'll live with it, just as he has with every other little compromise he's made. And one way he can do that is to stop the Union from using what they'll make from Karen as just a pet killer. He'll try to channel her towards a programme which will help the Masses. Like her brain being used in a hypertech computer designed to stop economic collapses. Maybe if he can have her used in something which'll pay off her debts for all the deaths she's caused, he won't feel so bad.
I note that we continue to move our Construct closer and closer to a fusion of Euthanatos and Technocracy. It helps that the Euthanatos are more about morals and philosophy than defining how reality functions. I wonder if they could eventually be brought into the TU fold. It's not like it'd be hard for them to function on a technological paradigm.

Anyway, perhaps Donald would feel a bit better if he used hyperstatistical future modelling to assure himself that he's doing the best he can. It might provide a bit of solace latter. Or not.

[X]Spare
Because I think it's more interesting narratively
 
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I note that we continue to move our Construct closer and closer to a fusion of Euthanatos and Technocracy. It helps that the Euthanatos are more about morals and philosophy than defining how reality functions. I wonder if they could eventually be brought into the TU fold. It's not like it'd be hard for them to function on a technological paradigm.

Anyway, perhaps Donald would feel a bit better if he used hyperstatistical future modelling to assure himself that he's doing the best he can. It might provide a bit of solace latter. Or not.

[X]Spare
Because I think it's more interesting narratively

That's not what defines the Euthanatos. What defines the Euthanatos is twofold:

1. Being told that you are inherently worthy of judging the worth of others-your opinion automatically carries more weight than the teeming masses by virtue of being Awakened

2. A requirement for a strong sense of absolute personal morality. The Euthanatos respect personal moral decisions even if other parties would consider them abhorrent. If you kill in the dictates of fate-you can't be wrong, for that would imply that fate was wrong to Awaken you.

FYI: Not even the infamously corrupt Syndicate had one of their leaders end up being basically Nephandi and running a Nephandic operation for centuries. This should tell you something about the Euthanatos and it's not nearly as flattering as they'd like it to be.
 
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