Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)
- Thread starter inverted_helix
- Start date
The problem, to me, is that this is what would be considered "narrative failure". Or, more simply, bad writing. It's something where I would absolutely criticize a work for being unable to create a character that is an actual character, and not just a vehicle for the whims of an author who can't decide what he wants to do.
The flaw is because of the disconnect between the players and the characters of the quest. We are creating an action ex nihilo, without proper justification or motivation, and doing so in the middle of an encounter. This is always a risk in voted-for social interactions, because the majority on one vote and the majority on the next vote don't have to have even remotely similar goals or approaches to the problem. However, the fact that it's a mechanical risk doesn't change the fact that I find it unacceptable within the story context.
Your statement is made with the assumed context of a single individual, or otherwise consistent group, holding a given position. What we have here is one step removed from that, because the assertion is being made from the moral/political positions of the players rather than of the characters within the setting.
I'm not sure if you missed the earlier edit, but I did note that it was possible to justifiably react to the event as a separation of who is making the assertion. Conveniently, Mami wasn't the one handling the negotiation, so she can legitimately assert her authority to countermand a previous statement. But regardless, there has to be some rationalization for why we'd change our stance.
So no, I'd not agree to changing the position "just because". If you want to make that change in position, you also have to be able to show why. Yes, as an empire quest, such things typically aren't considered relevant. But I think we've evolved past the trivializations of a standard empire quest.
Addendum: Just because I don't agree with the manner in which it's being proposed doesn't mean I'm against the idea itself.
Also, yes, I'd consider the previous vote to be viewable in the same way, however I can actually see someone like perhaps Kyouko making a case for the threatening posture. It does complicate the perception of our authority structure to have to regularly counter an already accepted stance, but maybe it can be treated like LordSquishy here on SV. And of course one must also question whether this is actually our true stance, given the previous vote was 6 to 2 in favor of the threat version.
How would apologizing make it harder to negotiate in the future? Personally, I would prefer to talk with people who are capable of admitting to mistakes instead of just pretending they never happened and leaving it ambiguous as to whether they still agree with what they said.
Because we realized that our previous stance was a mistake. People change their minds about things when they have more time to consider them. This doesn't make us an inconsistent character, it just makes us someone who can recognize their mistakes in retrospect and decide to do something about them.
It's an interesting opportunity though. Given the failure of our earlier, more optimistic projections in clearing Tokyo, there's going to be an evolution in the mindset of the Serenes especially given stress due to combat fatigue (we are not used to these higher stake combat missions) and the dramatic influx of refugees potentially causing unrest and friction as they trickle in.
Our puella are juggling a lot of roles, saying that the stress got them to make a bad decision (frustration making you make veiled, somewhat passive aggressive threats because that is your default behavior when pressured) is not impossible in the slightest.
Apologizing is a tricky thing though because we presumably have someone else doing the negotiating because a) Mami trusts them, b) Mami is not 100% comfortable with contract negotiations.
What might allow everyone to save face is a no strings attached gesture of support that is not simply a verbal apology. What form that support might take I am not sure.
Sorry if I misunderstood something, I am not 100% sure I am all caught up.
Our puella are juggling a lot of roles, saying that the stress got them to make a bad decision (frustration making you make veiled, somewhat passive aggressive threats because that is your default behavior when pressured) is not impossible in the slightest.
Apologizing is a tricky thing though because we presumably have someone else doing the negotiating because a) Mami trusts them, b) Mami is not 100% comfortable with contract negotiations.
What might allow everyone to save face is a no strings attached gesture of support that is not simply a verbal apology. What form that support might take I am not sure.
Sorry if I misunderstood something, I am not 100% sure I am all caught up.
Guys, I think we're getting a bit far ahead of ourselves. Here's what we actually voted for:
There was certainly nothing like the implied threat that I wanted to make, that if Sachiko makes such an (to me) outrageous offer as asking for infinite money in the middle of a national disaster it would be widely seen as war profiteering and, should Tokyo fall as a result, their group would be first in line in the resulting blame game.
There was no threat made, real or implied. The only possibly controversial suggestion we made was that Magick Corp should take some share of the sudden refugee glut that all of ex-Tokyo Japan is facing and, if and when they demured, as they did, we suggested that maybe instead of taking on additional refugees they can do something else to help, from the perspective that the refugee problem is, like Tokyo itself, a shared existential problem facing the entire country, not just the Serenes.
There was certainly nothing like the implied threat that I wanted to make, that if Sachiko makes such an (to me) outrageous offer as asking for infinite money in the middle of a national disaster it would be widely seen as war profiteering and, should Tokyo fall as a result, their group would be first in line in the resulting blame game.
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It's not infinite money. It's not even really that much more money than she's giving you. Betting on black on the roulette wheel would be a better way to make money.
It's still an unnecessary level of hostility to take with an ally, considering that she's lending us money at break-even rates.
Honestly I haven't written anything on this quest in about a week and I'm this close to just pulling the plug on the whole negotiation and having you just deal with the consequences of not having money in order to just be done dealing with the arguing about it. It's so frustrating and hard to work up motivation to write at this point.
OK, very simple vote.
[X] Accept Sachiko's counter offer.
-[X] Have Mami there personally for the finalization, to smooth over any negotiation issues that might have come up due to the vets' inexperience.
[X] Accept Sachiko's counter offer.
-[X] Have Mami there personally for the finalization, to smooth over any negotiation issues that might have come up due to the vets' inexperience.
Wait, the vote is still happening?
I'm not sure if I quite understand the mechanics of this negotiation - is someone there in person, and if so, how are they going to call Mami over? Are we going back and forth like some sort of high stakes game of broken telephone?
I'm not sure if I quite understand the mechanics of this negotiation - is someone there in person, and if so, how are they going to call Mami over? Are we going back and forth like some sort of high stakes game of broken telephone?
Typically, votes continue until an update gets posted.
I think we're communicating by phone/email/etc. Presumably Mami has to be involved at this point anyway, since she has to sign the contract.
[X] Accept Sachiko's counter offer.
-[X] Have Mami there personally for the finalization, to smooth over any negotiation issues that might have come up due to the vets' inexperience.
Strangely enough, there is hardly any arguing over what to do, as everyone has been for accepting the deal.
Since Mami was sent off to HC to train this month, she hasn't been immediately available for a lot of stuff. Instead, a vet (or multiple vets, depending on how the time is distributed) has been handling the discussions with Sachiko. Having Mami there 'personally' means having at least one evening where Mami reviews the deal personally with Sachiko. Whether it's in person, or over the phone, it's pretty much the same either way.
- Location
- A friendly desert community
[X] Accept Sachiko's counter offer.
-[X] Have Mami there personally for the finalization, to smooth over any negotiation issues that might have come up due to the vets' inexperience.
-[X] Have Mami there personally for the finalization, to smooth over any negotiation issues that might have come up due to the vets' inexperience.
No. The only way that this is worth infinite money is if our growth for the rest of infinity is the same as our/Sachiko's discount rate. This is incredibly unreasonable for her. For us...possibly, but unlikely. With our emphasis on taking care of our girls rather than expanding economically, I'd be surprised if our (long term) beat our discount rate. Thus while we're technically losing more money than she's gaining in NPV (ah finance), it shouldn't be an infinite amount.
I still disagree with this (E: Not the infinite money bit). Jobs and growth, man, jobs and growth
.Especially when taking into account the fact that this is probably a greater loss from us than it is a gain for her (as we'd likely have a lower discount rate).
But anyway, can't remember exactly what was in the counter offer, but I can't remember anything actually objectionable in there. I mean, I'm not 100% happy with it, but I'm not going to be 100% happy with anything, just out of a general desire to optimise and discuss things
. So, I guess I'll go with:[X] Accept Sachiko's counter offer.
-[X] Have Mami there personally for the finalization, to smooth over any negotiation issues that might have come up due to the vets' inexperience.
Bar any other options/considerations. Honestly, I'm a bit with inverted helix here, just in that I think we should probably just finish this and move on. The issues with it are unlikely to come up at the current scale of the quest (and mightn't come up at all, with the quest dying/game over being very real possibilities anyway) and they're not massive issues either. It's likely to be a OK to great option short term, and is only going to be a poor option long term (and even then, it's potentially still going to be OK). And if we've gotten long term, we're doing pretty good.
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I hate necroing without having a story post. Let me admit right off the bat that seeing the little banner at the bottom makes me terribly disinclined to post.
Anyway though I finally got nudged into coming back to this (at this point everyone probably expects my months long gaps in motivation), reviewed where we were at and realized that the hunting plan immediately fails.
I really hate that I didn't catch it when it was actually going around the first time. I got too heated and too caught up in arguing to actually look at the hunting plan, but I really should have focused on the actual plan instead of arguing. I am really terrible about getting sucked into arguments to the point of irrationality sometimes.
As a sort of apology for the failure and for the two month gap. Let me illuminate the issue a bit more than you'd normally get.
If you executed your plan as stated:
Which isn't to say that all the Youma in Tokyo are teleporters. It was actually very vaguely hinted about in the turn 34 when I said that the Incubators mentioned that the Class 4 was moving around Tokyo. Demon intelligence scales up per level. The Class 4 pushed the Class 3s around a bit.
A Class 0 is basically plantlife, Class 1-2 lower animals, Class 3 pack behavior and primitive planning, Class 4 around human. Somewhat smoother transitions than this implies at the edges though.
Now the way this factors in is there's basically no non-teleporters near you to attack. You could go across to the opposite side of Tokyo to seek them out, with the issues of crossing or long distance travel far around the edge of Tokyo through tons of other territories and on such a long path that we're talking noticeable commute costs (or through the center of Tokyo which is at least a bit shorter but has its own problems).
You could also go straight back for more attempts at anti-teleporter attacks.
Oddly helpful for him to post and relieve me of issue of it being 2 months without a post, lol.
Anyway though I finally got nudged into coming back to this (at this point everyone probably expects my months long gaps in motivation), reviewed where we were at and realized that the hunting plan immediately fails.
I really hate that I didn't catch it when it was actually going around the first time. I got too heated and too caught up in arguing to actually look at the hunting plan, but I really should have focused on the actual plan instead of arguing. I am really terrible about getting sucked into arguments to the point of irrationality sometimes.
As a sort of apology for the failure and for the two month gap. Let me illuminate the issue a bit more than you'd normally get.
If you executed your plan as stated:
You'd pretty much immediately discover that all the youma on your side of Tokyo are teleporters. (Which is all you'd get normally but I'm being nice so I'll continue.)
Which isn't to say that all the Youma in Tokyo are teleporters. It was actually very vaguely hinted about in the turn 34 when I said that the Incubators mentioned that the Class 4 was moving around Tokyo. Demon intelligence scales up per level. The Class 4 pushed the Class 3s around a bit.
A Class 0 is basically plantlife, Class 1-2 lower animals, Class 3 pack behavior and primitive planning, Class 4 around human. Somewhat smoother transitions than this implies at the edges though.
Now the way this factors in is there's basically no non-teleporters near you to attack. You could go across to the opposite side of Tokyo to seek them out, with the issues of crossing or long distance travel far around the edge of Tokyo through tons of other territories and on such a long path that we're talking noticeable commute costs (or through the center of Tokyo which is at least a bit shorter but has its own problems).
You could also go straight back for more attempts at anti-teleporter attacks.
This was also something I forgot over the past two months.
Oddly helpful for him to post and relieve me of issue of it being 2 months without a post, lol.
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Just after Turn 31 there was 1,000 Puella in Tokyo and 40 Class 3s:
Latest, after last threadmarked item, numbers list the girls at:
There don't seem to be any numbers for Youma so I'm instead going to work back from the 40 from before Turn 31 and count up all the Youma we know have died since then:
20 Normal Youma + 20 Teleporters
18 Normal Youma + 20 Teleporters
17 Normal Youma + 20 Teleporters
16 Normal Youma + 20 Teleporters
15 Normal Youma + 20 Teleporters
14 Normal Youma + 20 Teleporters
12 Normal Youma + 20 Teleporters
10 Normal Youma + 20 Teleporters
25% of 40 = 10 which fits with the number I worked out.
After that initial assault there have been, as far as I can tell, no Youma kills. So the population should stand at 10 normal Youma and 20 Teleporter Youma.
Plus any breeding that's been going on in the meantime, though that at least should have been sharply curtailed when they were running patrols.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!! Nuke it! Nuke it! NukeItNukeItNukeIt!!
We're seriously talking about a hostile human-or-better intelligence here, with physical capabilities that easily dwarf ours; the most rational response is to nuke it from orbit, then continue nuking until we're certain the thing is dead. I had no idea the demons' intelligence could ever scale that high, and I expect the Incubators don't either, or Tokyo would--and should--already be destroyed. Hostile emergent AIs are worse than grey goo scenarios in terms of extinction level events; forget humanity, something like this is a threat to the Incubators.
I thought Youma only spawned when the DS was high enough, IIRC 10+, while in Tokyo it's more in the -20 range. So we should be dealing with a fixed population.
...unless your telling me Youma can reproduce (hopefully through Mitosis)!?
@inverted_helix calls it "meiosis":
There are a few other posts detailing the process if you search, though we don't have much information on it yet. Presumably when the Class 3s are doing pair patrols and/or running the rapid response teams they don't "feed" as much; hopefully this should have curtailed their reproduction.
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Unitveras
"Return to nothingness!"
- Location
- Tatsumiyajima
Plus any breeding that's been going on in the meantime, though that at least should have been sharply curtailed when they were running patrols.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!! Nuke it! Nuke it! NukeItNukeItNukeIt!!
We're seriously talking about a hostile human-or-better intelligence here, with physical capabilities that easily dwarf ours; the most rational response is to nuke it from orbit, then continue nuking until we're certain the thing is dead. I had no idea the demons' intelligence could ever scale that high, and I expect the Incubators don't either, or Tokyo would--and should--already be destroyed. Hostile emergent AIs are worse than grey goo scenarios in terms of extinction level events; forget humanity, something like this is a threat to the Incubators.
Well....shit. If this is the moment where everyone dies. What do you think we should do (or at least try to do) before we all finally kick the bucket?