Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)
- Thread starter inverted_helix
- Start date
And you were confused as to why I would think differently, and I was explaining why.
@inverted_helix - What was the coverage rate for non-clairvoyant dispatchers?
Also, what would be the rate on clairvoyant dispatchers that were paired with a teleporter?
Why wouldn't we want Nagoya to get a majority? We have much better a relationship with them then with anyone else.
Also, we probably shouldn't be inviting in other groups without talking to Nagoya about it. Hiko is probably fine, since we need her artifact, but telling a group we have no relationship with and who contributed nothing to feel free to grab some territory seems likely to go down poorly.
Hmm it's tricky balancing prices against so many factors. Another consideration is I had to consider possibility of another bargaining round. I have to consider whether you guys will actually have interest in rentals of things she could make and what prices would be reasonable for both sides.
The original was 10.
Doesn't really help them because they're more limited by scan rate rather than range.
Obviously we would be asking them to contribute something. Otherwise we wouldn't do it.
Still not sure if buying the artifact is a prerequisite to rentals or not.
OK, supposing we only get the Yokohama area, and that the 40 refugees are part of the 50%, and that the clairvoyant rate is the same for the other 60. That gives us 7-8 new clairvoyants, capable of covering 140-160 territory. Would then need another ~5 non-clairvoyants to cover the rest of the territory.
Or, more generally, we'll need about 12 dispatchers for every 200 territory, if the clairvoyant rate remains constant at that level.
Would also need 4 teleporters for that much territory (1 teleporter per 50 territory).
Need 30-35 workers for every 100 meguca (200 territory). These would use up most of the greens.
That leaves about 50 meguca for actual hunting, plus any training.
1 elite, 5 experienced vets, and 40 untrained vets could hunt 200 territory up by about 6-7 DS.
Drop it to 37 untrained vets, and it would be +5 DS. That's enough to rebalance DS in 3-4 months, probably, which is on par with the training time.
This could leave 16 meguca units out of 100, which would be enough to train half the group using 4 experienced vets.
So for every 200 territory (assuming 50% meguca), 9 of our own vets can help hunt and train with the group, and keep it stable long enough to train up half the group in about the time it takes to get DS back to 0. That makes it safe for that group to hunt while the other half is trained.
Thus we'd need a total of 27 of our existing vets involved in territory expansion of up to +600 total territory. We'd be hard-pressed to free up more than 20, but we'd also have the newly trained refugees that could help with part of that, so it's conceivably possible, as an upper limit.
400 territory would be more comfortable than 600. 200 is much more doable than I earlier figured, so should probably be considered our baseline expected growth. I would expect us to get more than 100 new recruits, though, so leaning towards 400 on that side, too. Good to know that we can handle 600 if we get that many recruits, though.
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That's because I'm thinking about it. Leaning towards yes it's a prerequisite. Mostly for balancing between the two deals.
You're welcome to do another round of negotiating if you want though. I halfway expect it.
Once at DS 0, we can hunt every 100 territory block while keeping DS 0 with 17.5 trained vets (hunting solo with at least 4% armor), 6 dispatchers, and 2 teleporters. Net harvest of 94 cubes. 25.5 total meguca, so 51 meguca per 200 block, out of 100 available.
We'll need more armor by the time we get to that point. Between $56k and $168k if we get full kevlar sets, for between 200 and 600 territory.
Of course, Kyuubey might decide to drop a bunch of new contractees on us during all this. That helps in some regards, and hurts in others (mostly money).
So the money issue is the elephant in the room, now. We need boatloads of it.
Recruits, cost and upkeep:
100: $55k, $35k
200: $110k, $70k
300: $165k, $105k
And the upkeep costs are probably higher than that, to cover other amenities that we'll need to buy for each House. Not to mention higher still if we get houses instead of apartments.
Add it to existing population upkeep, and putting everyone in houses, and we're looking at:
200: $78k/month
300: $117k/month
400: $156k/month
Edit: Add an extra $6k to $12k per month to account for housing buffer space. It's not included in the numbers below.
No matter how many new recruits we end up with, we need Kyouko's church as a meeting place/dorm. There are just too many people, now. If I remember correctly, it was $750k to both buy and renovate.
We need to expand Serena's housing space, which means we need to move to the abandoned village. A minimum of 2 houses, but might as well look at 3, at $50k each. More would be better. Probably looking at up to $750k for the entire village (somewhere around 10-15 houses).
$500k for the new restaurant that we were already scouting for. That gives us a nice bit of cash relative to our previous situation, but we need a ton more, now.
Courier expansion. Original estimates were $50k for expanding into Yokohama. Not sure if that included expanding further into the downtown area. Would not be surprised if it went up to $100k for the larger area.
Going for everything, and ending up with 300 new recruits, would be $2.4 million, and needing to be pulling in an extra $105k per month on top of any loan repayments ($45k/month for $2.4 million at 4% over 5 years). Drop to $1.8 million ($33k/month loan payment) if we don't fully renovate the village.
Baseline upkeep (breaking even) would be $201k/month with 300 new girls in full housing, with the max loan. $190k with the more conservative loan.
Max can be made by 137 workers making $1500 per month. We currently have 20 in such jobs, and could expect 10 more in the new restaurant, so 107 more would need to be found or created in the courier expansion. We're currently getting about 10 couriers per 1 million population (maybe a little less), and 600 territory would be 12 million. Surprisingly, it might actually be possible once fully expanded.
Of course, that wouldn't happen instantly. 2.4 million and only upgrading 3 village houses would give 3 months of buffer.
If we got 200 recruits/400 territory, the upkeep numbers wouldn't be much different. It would still only be able to buffer for 3 months with the above loan conditions.
And of course all that only gets us to break-even levels. We desperately need new avenues to reach net positive.
Cube prices are going to drop through the floor. However even allowing them to stay at $1000 per cube means we'd need to sell like 2500 for that amount of money.
If we don't use RT on the underleveled territory, we'll lose out on a lot of cubes. A 200 territory hunted from -20 to 0 would yield 400 cubes. Using RT, it would yield 533 cubes. If we actually had the people to do it, we could harvest up a net 1250 cubes (after upkeep and stuff) from 600 territory, plus our existing territory. A shame to lose all that value, but it's more important to get things up to at least -10 quickly. That's still going to be tight, with our numbers. My numbers last post only added +5 DS per month, but we might need to hit +10.
Call it an even 2.5 million that we need to look for. Our only hope on that for now is probably Sachiko. We also need to find some new type of income, because even with this massive expansion, we're still only barely breaking even.
Alternative: Pretend we're not doing anything to improve things, and only get the bare minimum. We still need $500k for the restaurant, and $100k for the village, and $320k for the 300 new recruits (including armor), and $100k for the courier expansion. That means $1 million just for an absolutely bare-bones, no cushion loan.
So if we're already looking at the range of "millions", might as well get enough to make things substantially better. How much leverage is supporting the Magick Company getting some extra territory worth?
We'll need more armor by the time we get to that point. Between $56k and $168k if we get full kevlar sets, for between 200 and 600 territory.
Of course, Kyuubey might decide to drop a bunch of new contractees on us during all this. That helps in some regards, and hurts in others (mostly money).
So the money issue is the elephant in the room, now. We need boatloads of it.
Recruits, cost and upkeep:
100: $55k, $35k
200: $110k, $70k
300: $165k, $105k
And the upkeep costs are probably higher than that, to cover other amenities that we'll need to buy for each House. Not to mention higher still if we get houses instead of apartments.
Add it to existing population upkeep, and putting everyone in houses, and we're looking at:
200: $78k/month
300: $117k/month
400: $156k/month
Edit: Add an extra $6k to $12k per month to account for housing buffer space. It's not included in the numbers below.
No matter how many new recruits we end up with, we need Kyouko's church as a meeting place/dorm. There are just too many people, now. If I remember correctly, it was $750k to both buy and renovate.
We need to expand Serena's housing space, which means we need to move to the abandoned village. A minimum of 2 houses, but might as well look at 3, at $50k each. More would be better. Probably looking at up to $750k for the entire village (somewhere around 10-15 houses).
$500k for the new restaurant that we were already scouting for. That gives us a nice bit of cash relative to our previous situation, but we need a ton more, now.
Courier expansion. Original estimates were $50k for expanding into Yokohama. Not sure if that included expanding further into the downtown area. Would not be surprised if it went up to $100k for the larger area.
Going for everything, and ending up with 300 new recruits, would be $2.4 million, and needing to be pulling in an extra $105k per month on top of any loan repayments ($45k/month for $2.4 million at 4% over 5 years). Drop to $1.8 million ($33k/month loan payment) if we don't fully renovate the village.
Baseline upkeep (breaking even) would be $201k/month with 300 new girls in full housing, with the max loan. $190k with the more conservative loan.
Max can be made by 137 workers making $1500 per month. We currently have 20 in such jobs, and could expect 10 more in the new restaurant, so 107 more would need to be found or created in the courier expansion. We're currently getting about 10 couriers per 1 million population (maybe a little less), and 600 territory would be 12 million. Surprisingly, it might actually be possible once fully expanded.
Of course, that wouldn't happen instantly. 2.4 million and only upgrading 3 village houses would give 3 months of buffer.
If we got 200 recruits/400 territory, the upkeep numbers wouldn't be much different. It would still only be able to buffer for 3 months with the above loan conditions.
And of course all that only gets us to break-even levels. We desperately need new avenues to reach net positive.
Cube prices are going to drop through the floor. However even allowing them to stay at $1000 per cube means we'd need to sell like 2500 for that amount of money.
If we don't use RT on the underleveled territory, we'll lose out on a lot of cubes. A 200 territory hunted from -20 to 0 would yield 400 cubes. Using RT, it would yield 533 cubes. If we actually had the people to do it, we could harvest up a net 1250 cubes (after upkeep and stuff) from 600 territory, plus our existing territory. A shame to lose all that value, but it's more important to get things up to at least -10 quickly. That's still going to be tight, with our numbers. My numbers last post only added +5 DS per month, but we might need to hit +10.
Call it an even 2.5 million that we need to look for. Our only hope on that for now is probably Sachiko. We also need to find some new type of income, because even with this massive expansion, we're still only barely breaking even.
Alternative: Pretend we're not doing anything to improve things, and only get the bare minimum. We still need $500k for the restaurant, and $100k for the village, and $320k for the 300 new recruits (including armor), and $100k for the courier expansion. That means $1 million just for an absolutely bare-bones, no cushion loan.
So if we're already looking at the range of "millions", might as well get enough to make things substantially better. How much leverage is supporting the Magick Company getting some extra territory worth?
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I'm not sure what you're imagining here. With Hiko's artifact, we should be able to finish this off without additional help. Nagoya's already talked to everyone else and been rebuffed anyway.
Wasn't one of the problems in Tokyo that Kyubey was running out of girls to contract?
Running out doesn't mean none left. There's still lots of greens. Just see the 39 that decided to run and join us this month.
I wouldn't expect a lot, but I wouldn't be surprised to see an extra 20 dropped on us for every 100 we recruit.
Next problem: What to do in Tokyo next month.
Hiko backed off from providing her bugeisha, given the high pressure against it in Haman's vote, even though he allowed that there were workable safe conditions.
It will probably take two months to train our girls to handle the artifact on their own. We can use the battery system until then (or maybe the bugeisha some of the time, depending on tactics used). If we still expect to have to deal with youma for a couple months, and get to the beholder on the third month, that's still acceptable.
Power transmitter array isn't practical at 1 km distance, so probably won't end up with that. Anything close to the center, but outside the interdiction zone, is vulnerable to approximate teleportation, and we don't want to leave a team out there.
That means the support team will have to always be with Serena. (The new girls can't be expected to handle protecting the battery+artifact on their own, so Serena can't use the full-power approach on her own.)
We don't know if there were any encounters this month. Should probably assume that if there were any, it just negated the natural reproduction rate. So we're dealing with 10 normals and 20 telepoters next month.
Transport of the battery will be interesting. It's liable to be a target after the first few runs, if it's at all detectable. A large mana battery is probably detectable. The entire support group will have to move with it, while Serena get teleported around their movement.
Hitting the north side of Tokyo, as per Haman's suggestion, is probably good.
First instance will be confusion. The supporting youma will be pounding away, trying to get through the interdiction barrier. Will the battery be enough to defend against that? Definitely no more than one attack attempt per day, to allow a full recharge before attempts.
Second might see more focused attempts (and we probably want a proper bugeisha team for this run, to make sure it doesn't run out of power), but third and following attempts should see fewer attempts to penetrate the interdiction. Attempts to teleport 'near' the interdiction should be seen soonish, likely around attempt 5 or so.
Assuming they're staying in pairs, three kill runs in the north should do, killing 6 youma. After that, leave the area alone, and avoid any attacks for a while. This should also pre-empt their attempts to teleport 'near' the interdiction.
After that, I would say go back to the southwest area where we started, and take out two groups on that side. This assumes most of the youma have congregated more on the north/east side of Tokyo, as sort of prep for more north-side attacks.
If so, clear the south/west area of a couple patrols, and do some normal hunting on any low DS areas.
Be something like: North on days 1/4/7, south on days 15/20, and 10 days of hunting at the end of the month. That would clear out 10 more youma.
What happens if we're attacked by a near-teleport team that runs in after they teleport close?
Option 1: Drop the interdiction and teleport-evac out. Probably a bad idea, as that will tell the youma that they can force the interdiction off, and they can have additional teams ready for when it goes down.
Option 2: Kill with Serena at full power. With the interdiction up, the teleporting demons are not only unable to escape, their power is mostly useless. As we know from our own teleporters, that becomes intrinsic to the way they fight, and being unable to teleport would basically cripple them. Since the near-teleport team would necessarily be teleporters, putting them in Serena's max field just makes them sitting ducks. Will likely heavily overload the artifact, though, and won't be able to do this with the bugeisha team present, so hope we have enough power to get through it.
Being unable to teleport with the battery is really annoying. It makes a lot of the tactics dangerous or potentially ineffective.
We won't be able to teleport-drop in on a youma group while using the battery. If we have to run in manually, the teleporters are free to flee as long as they are outside the interdiction field. They could even call in reinforcements before we reach them, meaning we'd be running right into a team of ~6 youma. Serena's full aura should still allow us to take them down as long as we're going all-out on attack, and can finish before the battery wears out, but there's a lot of unknowns there.
Our best bet is going back to the lure technique. Of course they may not chase if we're luring them to Serena. If we lure to the support team, we could still drop Serena in via teleport, and immediately activate the artifact, but we'd be betting on our reaction time vs the youmas'. (Need to test how long the artifact takes to take effect.)
Will leave this thought train here.
Hiko backed off from providing her bugeisha, given the high pressure against it in Haman's vote, even though he allowed that there were workable safe conditions.
It will probably take two months to train our girls to handle the artifact on their own. We can use the battery system until then (or maybe the bugeisha some of the time, depending on tactics used). If we still expect to have to deal with youma for a couple months, and get to the beholder on the third month, that's still acceptable.
Power transmitter array isn't practical at 1 km distance, so probably won't end up with that. Anything close to the center, but outside the interdiction zone, is vulnerable to approximate teleportation, and we don't want to leave a team out there.
That means the support team will have to always be with Serena. (The new girls can't be expected to handle protecting the battery+artifact on their own, so Serena can't use the full-power approach on her own.)
We don't know if there were any encounters this month. Should probably assume that if there were any, it just negated the natural reproduction rate. So we're dealing with 10 normals and 20 telepoters next month.
Transport of the battery will be interesting. It's liable to be a target after the first few runs, if it's at all detectable. A large mana battery is probably detectable. The entire support group will have to move with it, while Serena get teleported around their movement.
Hitting the north side of Tokyo, as per Haman's suggestion, is probably good.
First instance will be confusion. The supporting youma will be pounding away, trying to get through the interdiction barrier. Will the battery be enough to defend against that? Definitely no more than one attack attempt per day, to allow a full recharge before attempts.
Second might see more focused attempts (and we probably want a proper bugeisha team for this run, to make sure it doesn't run out of power), but third and following attempts should see fewer attempts to penetrate the interdiction. Attempts to teleport 'near' the interdiction should be seen soonish, likely around attempt 5 or so.
Assuming they're staying in pairs, three kill runs in the north should do, killing 6 youma. After that, leave the area alone, and avoid any attacks for a while. This should also pre-empt their attempts to teleport 'near' the interdiction.
After that, I would say go back to the southwest area where we started, and take out two groups on that side. This assumes most of the youma have congregated more on the north/east side of Tokyo, as sort of prep for more north-side attacks.
If so, clear the south/west area of a couple patrols, and do some normal hunting on any low DS areas.
Be something like: North on days 1/4/7, south on days 15/20, and 10 days of hunting at the end of the month. That would clear out 10 more youma.
What happens if we're attacked by a near-teleport team that runs in after they teleport close?
Option 1: Drop the interdiction and teleport-evac out. Probably a bad idea, as that will tell the youma that they can force the interdiction off, and they can have additional teams ready for when it goes down.
Option 2: Kill with Serena at full power. With the interdiction up, the teleporting demons are not only unable to escape, their power is mostly useless. As we know from our own teleporters, that becomes intrinsic to the way they fight, and being unable to teleport would basically cripple them. Since the near-teleport team would necessarily be teleporters, putting them in Serena's max field just makes them sitting ducks. Will likely heavily overload the artifact, though, and won't be able to do this with the bugeisha team present, so hope we have enough power to get through it.
Being unable to teleport with the battery is really annoying. It makes a lot of the tactics dangerous or potentially ineffective.
We won't be able to teleport-drop in on a youma group while using the battery. If we have to run in manually, the teleporters are free to flee as long as they are outside the interdiction field. They could even call in reinforcements before we reach them, meaning we'd be running right into a team of ~6 youma. Serena's full aura should still allow us to take them down as long as we're going all-out on attack, and can finish before the battery wears out, but there's a lot of unknowns there.
Our best bet is going back to the lure technique. Of course they may not chase if we're luring them to Serena. If we lure to the support team, we could still drop Serena in via teleport, and immediately activate the artifact, but we'd be betting on our reaction time vs the youmas'. (Need to test how long the artifact takes to take effect.)
Will leave this thought train here.
You seemed to not want them. To her providing them was originally contributing to your fight, they're all quite combat capable.
You were brainstorming measures for when you thought the artifact itself couldn't be teleported just fine, this is merely another option with its own constraints. I mean she's effectively given you several different options for how to make things work. In some ways better than what you originally hoped for even because this could work without the support team potentially which you would have needed in the original case of it being some form of training anyways.
And this is actually a huge advantage over the way you were developing your own teleport interdiction. Because with that method they could still tele-dodge within the barrier, they just couldn't teleport out of the barrier. With Hiko's anti-teleport tech they can't tele-dodge.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Zero. I want to make diplomacy more costly for how much effort it takes me, not less.
It did include Downtown. Since I was the one proposing it, and I was always for Yokohama + Downtown being our target.
This makes me lean towards buying it.
We do need it eventually. But do we need it immediately? Can't we order some of this in stages so that we can handle cash flow?
It seems to me that the Tokyo priorities would be:
Stage 1 (Month One): Cellphones and Courier Expansion
Cellphones so that everyone starts thinking as part of a group, ect. Courier Expansion to get more money coming in so we have the cash flow for everything else. Goal is to hunt up to -10 DS.
Stage 2 (Month Two and Three): Apartments and Allowance/Basic Equipment.
Focus on Training, Hunt keeping DS even at -10. Get apartments (major impact on morale). Basic equipment will allow hunting more safely, and continues to build a sense of a team, alternative is Allowance.
Stage 3 (Months Four to Six): Basic Equipment/Allowance, and Improved Housing.
Complete Training, Hunt DS up to 0, and prepare to start Rotating Tactics. See about getting some houses to serve as a core location to operate from. Additional organization of the team.
Stage 4: Advanced Armor, Purchase Kyouko's Church, create Advanced Training facility/meeting place.
Creates a larger involvement of the girls in the rest of the group.
Something like that.
I'm assuming that we will have already done the work for the 2nd Restaurant and Serena's village in a previous action before starting the big Tokyo project.
See, it's doable. We just have to be careful about it.
We'll see, let's find out how bad the situation is before we commit to an approach here.
I'm sure we can find more options.
I see we are thinking along the same lines. Worse case we could mortgage the territory cube production or something.
See Kinematic's post above. It's not just cleaning up Tokyo, it's what comes after.
- Location
- Head in the clouds
With the teleportation denial artifact, if we use it, we need to train our teleporters how to dodge manually. Let's not lose more girls than we have to.
Hmm.
I'd say that housing has to come before (or at least at the same time as) the courier expansion. There might be ways around it (automatic cleanup from transforming? public bathhouses?), but trying to get people into work when they don't yet have a place to live sounds like a really bad approach.
How much of the welcome cost is the cell phone? I know the welcome package was basically cell phone + bicycle + shield. Was something like $150 for the bike, $70 for the shield? So $30 for the cell phone?
As long as we're doing the teleporting with the hunters, we can live without the bike. Can't do without the shield+cell phone, though. Might be able to skimp, and only get the shield for the half that are in hunting/training, while the job hunters don't really need it. On the other hand, the job hunters will want the bikes.
If we get shields for half, bikes for the other half, and cell phones for all, that's $140 per girl, or $14k per 100.
Shifting from apartments to houses is largely transparent, so we can start at the apartment level. That's first/last month's rent at $125 per girl, so $25k per 100. Add in buffer space, and it's $30k per 100.
Armor purchases can be delayed. That won't really be applicable until we get DS up close to 0, and by then we'll have gone through the training phase for about half of them.
Hunting 200 territory with an even RT split would require 37 sets of full kevlar for the upswing side, and 12.5 leather/hard leather for the downswing side. About $64k per 200 territory. That'll come into play a few months from now.
If we handle the restaurant and village acquisition as a separate action before the Tokyo expansion, that will be ~$650k on its own. The restaurant can cover that loan payment itself. Basically, get the loan, and have the next month having the restaurant set up and the village houses rebuilt, in parallel with the Tokyo cleanup. We can probably get a net $12k per month from that, after the loan is deducted.
If the courier expansion is $50k for the entire package, including into downtown, then total immediate expenses at the start of the Tokyo expansion would be:
$50k (couriers) + $44k/100 meguca
+100 = $94k
+200 = $138k
+300 = $182k
Note that we may need to plan on $53k per 100 meguca, to cover any new contractees (up to +20%) that Kyuubey brings in on top of those in Tokyo itself.
So $210k would cover the immediate costs of 300 new meguca, plus another 60 that Kyuubey brings in. That's enough to get the bare minimums set up for them.
Upkeep cost would be $125 rent + $100 food + $100 stipend + $10 equipment + $20 phone = $355 per month per girl
Absolute worst case would be 74 base + 40 refugees + 300 recruited + 60 Kyuubey contractees = 474 girls, which is an upkeep cost of $168,270 per month. Call it $175k because of other bits I'm not including (cable, Akiya house, current houses instead of apartments, etc).
Existing income plus the new restaurant could maybe hit $50k. An extra $125k per month could be had with 85 workers making $1500 per month. If population scales, the courier business could employ about 100 in a region with 600 territory. (We currently have 9 in about 50 territory, given that the Seto territory expansion failed.) We can easily field that many greens.
Middling case would be 74 base + 40 refugees + 200 recruited + 40 contractees = 354 girls, which is an upkeep of about $130k per month. Would need to make an extra $80k per month (and preferably $100k). Again, quite viable, assuming the courier business scales up.
And then there's the Sakura Church. $750k. We need to have a net profit of $15k per month (10 girls working) just to afford this. Seems feasible if the courier system works well enough.
So:
Month 35: Restaurant/Village work
Month 36: Serena moves into village, restaurant opens
Month 37: Kill beholder (hopefully)
Month 38: Tokyo expansion, courier expansion — need $250k (Or just get the full 1 mil?)
Month 39
Month 40: ~Sakura church? Need $750k
Month 41: Tokyo should be stable
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We don't use teleporters in the Tokyo fights. They're too much of a risk vs the beholder, so we don't allow them to fight there at all.
Unitveras
"Return to nothingness!"
- Location
- Tatsumiyajima
Is there info on the Beholder's capabilities?
Or did I just skim through again?
Some info on turns 31 and 32, when speaking with Nagoya and Kyuubey.
- Location
- The Beach
Problem is we are generally limited to jobs teenage girls can reasonably take.
Random Brainstorming:
Landscaping
-Relatively easy to do. Probably pretty niche, especially in urban areas but rural zones should be moderately lucrative though, every little bit counts.
Anndd uh, I got nothing. We've been so far limiting ourselves to service jobs, maybe we can rent a booth at a flea market and have girls make knickknacks or something to sell as supplementary income.