Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

What should I do regarding a change in system?

  • Notgreat's proposed simplification of hunting, leave rest intact.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Chapter system vastly simplifying everything.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .
I'll readily admit I do not understand this.
We are an extremely powerful group. We have 5 Elites and 44 Veterans. Very few groups can match that kind of strength (none that we know of).

We have sometimes done diplomacy through intimidation, but that's it
And you're saying that that's not forcibly taking over someone else's territory?
I looked over our past history and found the following diplomatic operations:
Turn 8: +1V (5 T) Diplomacy
Turn 8: +2G (3 T) Diplomacy + Intimidation (being a MG is dangerous)
Turn 11: +1G (3 T) Diplomacy + 1G driven off
Turn 12: +3V (5 T) Diplomacy
Turn 16: +1G (2 T) Diplomacy
Turn 18: +3V +7G (10 T) Diplomacy
Turn 20: +2V +1G (6 T) Intimidation + 4G driven off
Turn 23: +1E (8 T) Diplomacy
Turn 24: +1G (1 T) Diplomacy
Turn 25: +1V (1 T) Diplomacy
Turn 26: +1E +8V (12 T) Diplomacy

We recruited a total of 33 girls and 68 territories and it looks like we resorted to intimidation for 5 girls and drove off 5 girls (for a total of 12 territories). So we have used intimidation and force in the past, but only in less than a fifth of the cases (and the Iwata case in particular had extenuating circumstances). The Serene choose to expand by pure diplomacy most of the time.

Edit: total numbers by force/intimidation
Personnel = 5/33 = 15%
Territory = 12/68 = 17%
 
Last edited:
Well, really what it shows is that dice can be extremely fickle. If helix rolled a 1 on "how well did they pull off the kidnapping", then clearly something disastrous happened, but it says absolutely nothing about "how far they were willing to go".

If a rock hits your windshield on the highway, causing you to swerve, and ending up in an 18-car pileup, that doesn't mean you were willing to cause the injury and death of dozens of people; it means the dice gods hate you.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding MG untransformed resilience, but you'd have to be pretty freaking deadly to kill one. Unless it killed them too, I find it pretty unlikely that she'd die fully unintentionally.
And yes, it does men you were willing to cause the injury and death of dozens of people- but it's a small enough chance that every driver is willing to do that.
And you're saying that that's not forcibly taking over someone else's territory?
Indeed. One is "We'd like you to join us. Look at the power we have. You don't want to be our enemy."
The other is "We're kicking you out. If you want to fight us, feel free."

Very different. We only did the latter once twice, against a group that had already initiated hostilities (edit: and once against a green who was at war with another green, thanks bonnerunner)
 
Last edited:
Given that violence has been rather strongly hinted by invertedhelix to be ineffective in this case, the above cannot really be considered. So, barring that, what strength?
The relevant quote is this:
Though also attempts to wield the bigger stick in this situation aren't likely to work well. Also surprises me how people are going for that style of diplomacy considering they've been playing the true good route so far.
I'm not sure what this means, to be honest. When it comes to war, it's almost universally true that the side with the most powerful guns and the most soldiers wins. But inverted_helix was talking about diplomacy, not war. The "big stick" approach being useless would require that either our opponents think that they can hide from us or else they think that we are not willing to go to war or else they think that they can beat us. If our opponents actually can beat us, then we do not have a position of strength, but I find that possibility to be unlikely (due to the size of our group and the tactics of our enemy). It's more likely that our enemies are assuming that we cannot or will not be able to use that strength against them. In this case, we would still be negotiating from a position of strength, it's just that our opponents would be willfully ignoring that strength.

You say that you don't want to enter diplomacy unless we have a position of strength or at least equivalence. I agree. However, it seems that the problem is not our strength (in and of itself) but rather our opponents' perception of that strength. Do you have any ideas on how we might change that before we start talking to them?
 
It seems quite likely that what we're dealing with is a medium-sized team (6 to 12) of elites who have complementary wish magic and no home territory to threaten, that move about the country to attack 'soft' groups that hold enough territory to have a good-sized stockpile of Grief Cubes.
 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding MG untransformed resilience, but you'd have to be pretty freaking deadly to kill one. Unless it killed them too, I find it pretty unlikely that she'd die fully unintentionally.
Or maybe she slipped out of their grasp, ran into the street, and got hit by a bus. (For death: they panicked and ran, while the soul gem ended up fully corrupting itself trying to heal her body.) Maybe someone swung a sword at her, she raised her hand against that, and it hit the ring in exactly the wrong way, shattering the gem. Maybe they pulled her into an alley that was in the middle of a yakuza shootout, ending in either of the above types of fatalities.

There are many creative ways things could have gone badly and ended in her death, without needing specific intent.

As for degree of resilience, I'm assuming something on the scale of Batman-like: very strong, very fast, can take a hit, but you can't just ignore a car running into you or something like that (with allowances for individual girls' powers for all stats). @inverted_helix can clarify if this is significantly off.

And yes, it does men you were willing to cause the injury and death of dozens of people- but it's a small enough chance that every driver is willing to do that.
I'll grant that as technically true, though if you want to carry it that far, that means you're implicitly accepting that you could kill or be killed by anyone, every second of your entire life. At that point the entire statement loses any meaning.

To clarify, by "willing to" (as in your original statement and my following post), I assume that that carries with it the meaning of active intent.

Indeed. One is "We'd like you to join us. Look at the power we have. You don't want to be our enemy."
The other is "We're kicking you out. If you want to fight us, feel free."
You're missing, "You're joining us. If you want to fight us, feel free, but it won't matter."

Regardless, all three of them are forceful takovers. The only differences are the outcome for the other party, and whether you have to actually fight to enforce the threats. Beyond that, it's just what words you choose to use, and whether you'll carry through on your threat (which, based on Haman's general approach, we would have).

This is to be distinguished from violent takeovers, where the pretty word phase is skipped and you go straight to fighting. Force is distinct from violence.
 
Or maybe she slipped out of their grasp, ran into the street, and got hit by a bus. (For death: they panicked and ran, while the soul gem ended up fully corrupting itself trying to heal her body.) Maybe someone swung a sword at her, she raised her hand against that, and it hit the ring in exactly the wrong way, shattering the gem. Maybe they pulled her into an alley that was in the middle of a yakuza shootout, ending in either of the above types of fatalities.

There are many creative ways things could have gone badly and ended in her death, without needing specific intent.

As for degree of resilience, I'm assuming something on the scale of Batman-like: very strong, very fast, can take a hit, but you can't just ignore a car running into you or something like that (with allowances for individual girls' powers for all stats). @inverted_helix can clarify if this is significantly off.

I'll grant that as technically true, though if you want to carry it that far, that means you're implicitly accepting that you could kill or be killed by anyone, every second of your entire life. At that point the entire statement loses any meaning.

To clarify, by "willing to" (as in your original statement and my following post), I assume that that carries with it the meaning of active intent.
Well, not knowing the details of what would've happened we can't really say. I too would like additional information about untransformed resilience. I'd argue that if you're attempting a kidnapping against someone who could fight back then you're accepting that someone might die, as the risk is significant. It's all about the probabilities, and if you try to rob a bank with a gun, you're responsible if you accidentally kill someone, even if you meant it to just be for intimidation.

You're missing, "You're joining us. If you want to fight us, feel free, but it won't matter."

Regardless, all three of them are forceful takovers. The only differences are the outcome for the other party, and whether you have to actually fight to enforce the threats. Beyond that, it's just what words you choose to use, and whether you'll carry through on your threat (which, based on Haman's general approach, we would have).

This is to be distinguished from violent takeovers, where the pretty word phase is skipped and you go straight to fighting. Force is distinct from violence.
Going by boonerunner's list, that happened all of twice (turn 8 and the kidnapping). The vast majority of our diplomacy has been just that- us being nice and giving them benefits, and them agreeing with us.
 
It seems quite likely that what we're dealing with is a medium-sized team (6 to 12) of elites who have complementary wish magic and no home territory to threaten, that move about the country to attack 'soft' groups that hold enough territory to have a good-sized stockpile of Grief Cubes.

No. We are dealing with a bunch of zero population zealots who think they are saving magical girls by stealing their soul gems and forcing them into hibernation so that there are lower levels of active magical girls so that Demon Strength will not increase to the levels that generate Class 3 Demons.

Now maybe they have some thought of awakening magical girls in hibernation if the magical girl population falls below sustainable levels. However the fact they are leaving behind bodies makes that impossible and implies that they plan this to be permanent and are only avoiding smashing soul gems so that they can claim they aren't killing someone.

Probably at least one of them is an Elite.

There will be no negotiations, and no demands, because our enemy does not care about that. They just want to permanently "hibernate" girls. Thus they have already achieved their goal and if Ayako fails her search roll to find them then Sora and Mariko will become Snow White and Sleeping Beauty.

I guess we will need to build glass coffins for them.

Essentially they will become the equivalent of people in permanent comas. We'll have to decide if we continue paying the upkeep to keep their bodies alive in the hope that someday we find this group and recover their soul gems.
 
Last edited:
You're missing, "You're joining us. If you want to fight us, feel free, but it won't matter."
Note that the way that intimidation was phrased in Turn 8 was "Being a magical girl is dangerous. You're just two naive girls on your own and you're likely to get yourself killed. You're not obligated to join us, but we are strongly encouraging you to do so." Mechanically speaking, the intimidation was a modifier to the diplomacy roll, so the girls actually did have a choice. They weren't happy about the situation at the time, but they are happy now and have been working at completely safe jobs since they were recruited. Odds are fairly high that they would have died on their own.
 
Given that violence has been rather strongly hinted by invertedhelix to be ineffective in this case, the above cannot really be considered. So, barring that, what strength?
Many forms of strength to be considered:

Military strength: The amount of active combative power that we can field. We're moderately good here, mainly due to the size of the organization. We are still limited, though, because a large chunk of the organization is tied up in mundane jobs that we'd be very reluctant to lose. An independently wealthy group, or one primarily criminal in nature, would be able to field the vast majority of their populace.

Political strength: The strength of bonds formed with other groups that would be willing to lend their assistance in matters civil or military. We are very weak in this regard, as we have only just barely started reaching out to other groups, rather than absorbing them wholesale.

Strength of reputation: What we are known for, and how well we are known, for the purposes of affecting how other groups would approach us. Influenced by consistency of action and spread of information. The tribal nature of meguca means that strength of reputation will be low for all groups. It's unlikely that we have any specifically known traits, instead having a spotty record known to a few groups.

Leadership strength: The cohesiveness of the group, and willingness to follow their leader. Based partly on the perceived capabilities of the leader to make the right decisions for the group. Very strong, as we have tight bonds throughout, and Mami is a naturally strong leader.

Morale: The degree to which the group members believe in themselves and each other, and are willing to put themselves at risk for orders or what they believe is right. Moderately good, though weakened at the moment.

Moral strength: A philosophical position that allows one to stand true to their beliefs, and where those beliefs align closely enough with the opposition that they can be used as leverage in arguments. This changes depending on which group is being compared, and how well our actions match up to the proposed philosophy.

Intelligence: Sufficient understanding of the opponent that you can anticipate their actions and reactions, and allocate your own forces to best offset or undermine the opponent's strength. For us, essentially none at the moment.

Resources: 'Economic' strength. Production capability, monetary funds, and other mundane capabilities. This might include connections to politicians or organized crime, as well. Provides the ability to outmaneuver the enemy in the economic space. For us, mediocre at the moment.

Information: Knowledge gained through research, study and practice. A valuable trade resource that spans the mundane and magical. We have a few tricks, but overall I'd rate us as moderately weak.

Overall, lots of potential strength, but not a whole lot of actualized strength. However, from an outside perspective with limited knowledge, you'd still want to be pretty cautious. Size alone means you don't want to act rashly. Take advantage of that by upholding the image of strength, while hiding the weaknesses.

Going by boonerunner's list, that happened all of twice (turn 8 and the kidnapping). The vast majority of our diplomacy has been just that- us being nice and giving them benefits, and them agreeing with us.
Indeed, but the original statement was against an argument implying that we were too good to ever do something like that, by ignoring that it ever happened.

No. We are dealing with a bunch of zealots who think they are saving magical girls by stealing their soul gems and forcing them into hibernation so that there are lower levels of magical girls so that Demon Strength will not increase to the levels that generate Class 3 Demons.
Very likely, though the probing action last month leaves me slightly uncertain. Our Iwata territory is very small, and surrounded by numerous other groups. They'd need to know that we have a split territory for it to make sense, and they'd have to ignore the surrounding groups to go after us specifically. Unless they already have. That might be something for Mami to find out while talking with 11 and 13.
 
We are dealing with a bunch of zero population zealots who think they are saving magical girls by stealing their soul gems and forcing them into hibernation so that there are lower levels of active magical girls so that Demon Strength will not increase to the levels that generate Class 3 Demons.
That's one possibility which "makes some horrible twisted sense in a way that is extremely rational but horrible for all that it's rational. Canon Mami might have been proud. Kyuubey would be if he had such things as emotions."

But it still doesn't make sense. The Serene carefully control the Demon Strength in their territory so that it cannot build to levels that would generate Class 3 demons. And we currently have more cube income than we have girls to support. If the girls who attacked us have this philosophy, then they're either stupid or misinformed. I'm inclined to think that inverted_helix has something else in mind.
 
Last edited:
No. We are dealing with a bunch of zero population zealots who think they are saving magical girls by stealing their soul gems and forcing them into hibernation so that there are lower levels of active magical girls so that Demon Strength will not increase to the levels that generate Class 3 Demons.

Do we actually know this or is this speculation?
 
But it still doesn't make sense. The Serene carefully control the Demon Strength in their territory so that it cannot build to levels that would generate Class 3 demons. And we currently have more cube income than we have girls to support. If the girls who attacked us have this philosophy, then they're either stupid or misinformed. I'm inclined to think that inverted_helix has something else in mind.
It also doesn't make sense from the perspective that:
  • We have no motivation to reduce hunting levels just because we lost a couple girls; the extra cubes just get banked.
  • Kyuubey is very likely to replace the magical girls with new recruits, negating any possible benefit to removing those two from the pool.
The only valid approach with that philosophy would be to completely wipe out entire groups, as it would take a while before Kyuubey's replenishments would bring the population back up.

If this is a wandering group, it's almost a requirement that they will have already hit at least one of the surrounding group territories. If our diplomatic attempts end up wandering around a completely empty zone, we'd have confirmation on that.

If it's one of the existing neighboring territories... Well, this just seems too practiced an action to be a new group with some zealot leader that just popped up. It doesn't seem like something that could grow out of a stable neighboring area.

And, as usual, they just have too much information about us (eg: the exact location of our base apartment) while we know almost nothing about them. Very frustrating.

Do we actually know this or is this speculation?
Speculation.
 
And, as usual, they just have too much information about us (eg: the exact location of our base apartment) while we know almost nothing about them. Very frustrating.
Considering that they appear to have a very talented Clairvoyant (i.e. the sniper) and we already know that they were in our territory last month in order to drop off the demon bomb, it seems likely that they scouted us out at the same time.
 
Given that violence has been rather strongly hinted by invertedhelix to be ineffective in this case, the above cannot really be considered. So, barring that, what strength?
Well he didn't say that; he said we were being awfully bloodthirsty, and the attackers will have a justification that PMMM-Mami might have agreed with. I'm skeptical, but we'll see.
 
As for degree of resilience, I'm assuming something on the scale of Batman-like: very strong, very fast, can take a hit, but you can't just ignore a car running into you or something like that (with allowances for individual girls' powers for all stats). @inverted_helix can clarify if this is significantly off.
Batman is a terrible metric for comparison. I mean if you look at some of his bits in the Justice League just his mere surviving the shockwaves from enemies throwing down with Superman makes him pretty ridiculously sturdy.

A more reasonable example would be along the lines of saying that they can do the things a typical action movie hero (which claims not to have any superpowers) can do. You know, jump from a two story building without breaking stride, take a bullet to anywhere besides the head or heart and keep fighting, etc. If you get hit by a car you may roll across the roof and manage to keep running if it's not going very fast. Kind of the range that is superhuman when you think about them doing it on a regular basis, but not to the point where you just immediately call bullshit on them being mundane humans (since humans actually can rarely manage such things).

If you get hit by a fast moving bus you're still dead.

the fact they are leaving behind bodies makes that impossible
I'm not sure where you get that idea. I mean manufacturing a new body is entirely in the possibility space. And there are alternatives. You aren't dealing with conventional medicine here. Your veteran class healers can replace a limb that's just gone, not reattach a severed limb but generate an entirely new one that's identical to the original, in a matter of minutes. The brain meat of a meguca is not quite the difficulty of replacement it would be in a normal human either. All memory and personality has been offloaded to their soul gem, so it's not like you have to know how to encode memory into the brain and know the memories to encode.

No. We are dealing with a bunch of zero population zealots who think they are saving magical girls by stealing their soul gems and forcing them into hibernation so that there are lower levels of active magical girls so that Demon Strength will not increase to the levels that generate Class 3 Demons.
Anyways this is actually a very interesting idea that tempted me to substitute this for what I've actually had going on for a little while, but think I'll pass. The real situation is a bit more complex.

Considering that they appear to have a very talented Clairvoyant (i.e. the sniper) and we already know that they were in our territory last month in order to drop off the demon bomb, it seems likely that they scouted us out at the same time.
Yep.

Well he didn't say that; he said we were being awfully bloodthirsty, and the attackers will have a justification that PMMM-Mami might have agreed with. I'm skeptical, but we'll see.
I'm not a good writer so I often stumble about, but supposedly practice improves skills, so we'll see how this goes. Also Mami here is in a very different headspace than she was in canon obviously, the world hasn't been trying nearly as hard to crush the hero out of her after all.

Though I can already see ways I could have handled this better in hindsight.
 
Last edited:
Which means they may have a somewhat skewed view of our capabilities. I mean, our Iwata Territory has like what, less than ten people?
Kaori, Ayako, Mariko, and Akane are the ones that spend the most time there. Though Akane spends more time in your main territory now because of her duties at the restaurant.

Standard total complement there is around 5 veterans as you don't have any green positions out there. You try to get Ayako and Mariko to socialize more with the group and cycle them back to main area sometimes, but don't want to force them any further and such cycling is disruptive. Sora seems to get along with Mariko quite well at least and takes duty there a lot. Often have a teleporter as the final person simply because self-only teleport is cheap enough that they can come back to HQ easily since you have more population in Iwata than jobs. Largely because you specified after the kidnapping you were going to get an apartment there and station more vets to keep a better eye on Kaori.

Kyouko being down there at this time is luck.

Also trying to claim this enemy group knows everything was rather ludicrous from my side of the table. Their scouting wasn't very good either.
 
Last edited:
Batman is a terrible metric for comparison. I mean if you look at some of his bits in the Justice League just his mere surviving the shockwaves from enemies throwing down with Superman makes him pretty ridiculously sturdy.
Maybe I should say the theory of Batman (ie: human in top physical condition), rather than Batman in practice (being able to survive things even a top human shouldn't be able to). An action movie hero is a better example of what I was going for, though, so that's fine.
 
Also trying to claim this enemy group has knows everything was rather ludicrous from my side of the table. Their scouting wasn't very good either.
Yay! We're not the only ones in the dark! :)

My frustration was more lack of information in general, particularly compared to the opponents, when I've had several ideas on the burner to help improve our intelligence; it's just going to take several months to get any of them up to speed, so it's a bit of them catching us while we're still trying to put on our pants.
 
Which means they may have a somewhat skewed view of our capabilities. I mean, our Iwata Territory has like what, less than ten people?
That brings up an interesting point. Our scouting failures have all resulted in us getting caught, which is somewhat unrealistic given that meguca who aren't transformed are hard to distinguish from regular girls. It probably would have been more realistic for failures to give little or no information, and only critical failures resulting in getting caught, or maybe false information.
 
We don't have your perspective though. Until the recent posts, it appeared to be quite the successful operation for them. In any event they still know more about us than we them.
In-character, we know basically nothing about them, while they (apparently) knew our local base's location, our patrol schedule, and which girls were most valuable and vulnerable.

Out-of-character... we know basically nothing about them.
 
Back
Top