Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

What should I do regarding a change in system?

  • Notgreat's proposed simplification of hunting, leave rest intact.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Chapter system vastly simplifying everything.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .
So, musing overnight while in bed, and assuming the current events are connected to the Kaori kidnappers, I realized there's a series of events that fully explains the current situation (all the way to why demon bombs were used). Of course I have no idea how valid it is, given that we're still lacking information, but I'll likely write it out as an omake anyway (or rather, try to recreate what went through my head, since it's all jumbled up now).

If this is valid, I'm pretty sure we can get through this without a war, though it will take some pretty fancy negotiating on Mami's part. Of course there's a few variations on who played what part, some of them trickier than others.

I can explain my reasoning directly, or you can wait for the omake.
 
The following is pure speculation, premised on the following clues:

1) Mariko and Sora's soul gems were stolen; they weren't killed. That implies future ransom demands, which implies that the enemy wants something beyond merely driving us out.

2) Ayako's dropped phone call. While frustrating from a planning perspective, it is also quite suspicious.

3) Two stealth specialists were not able to avoid an ambush — though only one of them needs to fail; if one gets caught up in the fight, the other is likely to stay to help, negating any stealth utility.

4) The previous conflict here also involved ransoming someone, by a group of young, desperate girls.

5) It's been long enough since that incident that the greens involved should be vets by now.

6) Three of the four girls stationed here were (tangentially) involved in the previous incident. Kyouko is the target of fear/grudge, while Mariko and Ayako were coerced into joining us, and have connections with the girls who were involved in the previous kidnapping.



Base events:

Naru - Lead of green kidnapper group; egalitarian, but annoying
Sasami - Named green in the kidnapper group; powers of getting people to like her/do what she wants
2 more greens - considered 'deadweight', but Naru would try to support them


Leader of this new group: Either Naru or Sasami. Sasami has a power that lends itself towards control, but the behavior of the group fits Naru much more (aggressive, power-focused).

Naru was upset about Sasami not talking to her after the kidnapping event. It's likely they reconciled, but Naru still feels strongly for the other girl (perhaps subtly enhanced by Sasami's power). Aside: Sasami's powers likely make it such that most or all of their group feel strongly for her, and thus are quite willing to push hard against a larger and more dangerous group for her sake.


Tentative cautionary thought - Ayako could be acting as a double agent right now. I expect her to supply 'suggestions' about how we might proceed. Leverage against her would be Mariko. Evidence: the abandoned telephone call. Connection between Ayako and Naru, based on omakes. The Serenes are currently in a position where they can afford the loss of a few cubes, so she may be willing to arrange events (such as herself and Mariko both being on site) in exchange for not allowing things to go too far.


Projected situation:

Sasami got caught up in a fight with demons that left her near-dead, to the point of needing to separate her soul gem from her body. Think completely torn to shreds.

Naru's group has focused solely on building up power — obvious offensive abilities, not support abilities like healing (whether deliberately or through happenstance).

Without a proper healer, restoring Sasami's body is a long and arduous process, likely consuming many grief cubes (several dozen are likely to be needed by the end of it). This cost can't be supported by the group. They need more territory, or more cubes, or a healer.

Naru's personality clashes with others; she just doesn't do diplomacy well. She won't have any alliances that she can call on for assistance in this matter.

For all that she's built up her group, this is just one of many problems that are the 'fault' of the Yellow Demon and her organization. In particular, if Iwata hadn't been taken from them, they might potentially be able to pay the cube cost of restoring Sasami (at least in Naru's mind).

That cube cost is blood money, to her. Burning through these cubes that they can't really afford to spend, while the Serene group continues to sit pretty in Naru's former territory. She wants revenge, and she wants them to pay for the pain and risk and possible losses they've suffered. But mostly she wants them to pay for the loss of Sasami.

The demon bombs are symbolic. They're the cubes that had to be used trying to heal Sasami, and, even if the Serenes never find out why, they're a way to share the pain, a way to hurt the Serenes using the very thing that was taken from Naru in the first place (both the territory and Sasami).

Their first demand is territory; they want the Serenes out. The soul gems are used as barter. The reason they want the territory, though, is the cubes, and I suspect they would accept the cubes as a counteroffer, since it gets them the same (or more, with our hunting techniques) cubes, but without the hunting effort. However, in this case it's not just a matter of survival of the group as a whole; it's a matter of what the cubes are intended to be used for — Sasami's recovery.

Naru cannot ask for help on the healing; she would never lower herself to beg from those who usurped her territory, who she views as a bunch of bullies (even if later information from Ayako and Miyako might contradict that; first impressions are hard to break). Taking the territory back is also "just deserts" for the Serenes.

What Mami needs to do is negotiate with Naru during the ransom discussion, to the point she triggers Naru revealing what she really wants, but in a way that allows Naru to make it a demand rather than a request. For realism's sake within the negotiation, this information can't be revealed to Mami beforehand; even if Taura is aware of the real situation, she likely will refrain from telling Mami (particularly as that allows Mami to truthfully deny any mind-reading knowledge being used against the other group), instead trusting in Mami's ability to get to the core of the matter.

Healing by a specialist (Sayaka will likely be there, and recognizable both as a healer, and as the one who healed Sasami before) could do in a matter of minutes (maybe up to an hour?) what would take a non-specialist months, and at a cost of only a handful of cubes instead of dozens. (Get the spare cubes from Kyouko, as a counterpoint to the original incident.)

Naru gets back what is truly important to her — one of the people she most cares about — without losing face, and far quicker than could be done with the brute force method of either taking the territory or demanding grief cubes.

We set up a wary and cautious alliance with them, where Naru can still play the tough girl, demanding respect and recognition as an independent group, and favors from the Serene, while slowly being allowed to feed into Mami's philosophy of protecting and caring for the girls in her organization above all else. Because Naru does care about her girls; she was just put in a position where she doesn't have the luxory of being 'nice'.

Putting this here to explain my line of thought. Not sure how long it will take to write the omake, so might as well put this up. Will find out if it's close or way off after the next update.
 
The following is pure speculation, premised on the following clues:

1) Mariko and Sora's soul gems were stolen; they weren't killed. That implies future ransom demands, which implies that the enemy wants something beyond merely driving us out.

2) Ayako's dropped phone call. While frustrating from a planning perspective, it is also quite suspicious.

3) Two stealth specialists were not able to avoid an ambush — though only one of them needs to fail; if one gets caught up in the fight, the other is likely to stay to help, negating any stealth utility.

4) The previous conflict here also involved ransoming someone, by a group of young, desperate girls.

5) It's been long enough since that incident that the greens involved should be vets by now.

6) Three of the four girls stationed here were (tangentially) involved in the previous incident. Kyouko is the target of fear/grudge, while Mariko and Ayako were coerced into joining us, and have connections with the girls who were involved in the previous kidnapping.


Putting this here to explain my line of thought. Not sure how long it will take to write the omake, so might as well put this up. Will find out if it's close or way off after the next update.

Hmm... I wouldn't be surprised if Naru, and even Sasami might be involved in this. I think theorizing that Sasami is severely injured is a big leap in imagination. Not impossible but no real evidence for it. More probable would be seeking "revenge" for the other two girls who might have died.

As for Ayako, I could see Kyouko deciding to keep an eye on her but probably not mention her suspicions to anyone else.

Also... not really in the mood for negotiations either. Which, by the way, fits Naru to a tee. Instead of opening negotiations first before taking hostile actions, she instead tries to seize hostages and then negotiate. Which means that Mami who would have been willing to talk and cooperate, instead ends up fighting.
 
I think theorizing that Sasami is severely injured is a big leap in imagination. Not impossible but no real evidence for it.
It's definitely a leap, but it fit so well with why they would be using the demon bombs as harassment that everything fell into place after that. About half of the above speculation didn't realize itself until after I'd made that jump.

More probable would be seeking "revenge" for the other two girls who might have died.
Revenge is an easier excuse, but just doesn't fit with the ransom action. If you want to make someone pay for deaths, you work on killing them, not taking hostages. There's only a point in hostages if you want something in exchange, and nothing we could give in exchange would mean anything for girls who'd died. Plus it's weaker narratively because the girls were never named.

Pure revenge also doesn't fit with the Ayako and Mariko discrepancies, though I'll grant that those issues could be pure coincidence.

As for Ayako, I could see Kyouko deciding to keep an eye on her but probably not mention her suspicions to anyone else.
Quite likely.

Also... not really in the mood for negotiations either.
Negotiations aren't just for when it's convenient for us. The true importance of negotiations only arises when it's difficult.

Frankly I won't be satisfied with less than complete subjection and absorption of the entire enemy group. That probably means having to deal with imprisonment and parole tactics. It's going to be a very difficult proposition and will probably result in a lot of the grief spiraling, but it has to be done.
This, I believe, would lead to the complete destruction of our group — not necessarily to enemy action, but rather to the loss of the ideal. Resorting to violence so quickly and easily without actually determining the source of the conflict, and so casually accepting grief spiraling as a side effect, undermines significant aspects of what the Serene was built on.

If this were a simple assault with deaths incurred, sure, start up the war engine. But there are too many hints that there is more going on behind the scenes, and we already know we're woefully blind to what else is going on in the world.
 
Also, from a Doylist perspective, something that requires going to war is not a mini-turn event. There has to be some means of resolving this.
 
I say we only go to war if negotations fall through. The Serenes are supposed to be better, so let's try to resolve this peacefully.
 
This may seem a bit brutal. But you've kind of failed to ask (what I at least thought) an increasingly obvious question over the past several turns. And this event is kind of coming at it obliquely. Though as more details emerge you'll probably have a clearer understanding of just what it was you've been forgetting.
Is this a question about the world/mechanics that the players should have been asking the QM, or a question about the diplomatic/political situation in Iwata that the Serene should have been asking?

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I'm suggesting that area 11 through area 1 are now one area under control of one group. Hence a willingness to challenge us, and the source of all the threats against us.
I don't think they are the same group. We successfully scouted Area 11 and Area 12 and found that they are the same group, but saw no evidence that it goes farther than that. And there is room for at least one area (perhaps two) between Area 11 and Area 1.

Frankly I won't be satisfied with less than complete subjection and absorption of the entire enemy group. That probably means having to deal with imprisonment and parole tactics. It's going to be a very difficult proposition and will probably result in a lot of the grief spiraling, but it has to be done.
I agree.

I'm not inclined to negotiate, personally.
The primary value of negotiation is the opportunity for intelligence gathering that it would present. Currently we only have suspicions, we don't know for sure who is responsible, nor how strong they are, except that they have at least 8 members who are appear to be pretty experienced. If our opponent is Naru, then she has not only survived and gained experience, but also found backup.

Since our primary suspect is Naru, we should ask Ayako about her and the other 3 greens. One of them might have been the clairvoyant sniper or the teleporter.

[X] Get Ayako focused on the here and now. This isn't over yet, and Mariko isn't dead yet.
[X] Get the bodies off the street and back into the apartment.
[X] Have Ayako attempt to identify where the attackers went, and see if she can sense Sora or Mariko's soul gems.
[X] Call Mami and tell give her a report of the current situation.
-[x] We'll need a healer with the detachment — someone who can preserve the bodies without the soul gems to animate them.
-[x] We are going to want Taya brought in to help find the enemy.
-[x] Be sure to bring our public contact phone line. Since they didn't destroy the soul gems, we should probably expect ransom demands, and that line is the most likely means of contact.
[x] Work with Ayako on at least getting visual identification of any of the attackers she saw. If she knows who any of them are, even better.
-[x] Ask what she knows about Naru and the other 3 girls that were kicked out of Iwata.
 
If the other party resorts to tactics like this as a first action, their demands in negotiations are likely to be unreasonable.

Sure, but we should wait to find out that the demands actually are unreasonable. If it is the, highly unlikely, case that they just want healing, then that's a reasonable desire even if it doesn't warrant kidnapping our people. If they do demand unreasonable things, then the benefit to having negotiated is that we know who attacked us and won't go harring off to strike at the wrong people.

I frankly see no downside to negotiation other than not getting to immediately indulge in outrage.
 
And if they use the negotiations to overwhelm and capture the diplomatic party too?
It's ironic that you're worried about this considering that this is exactly what we did in the previous negotiation. If the other party is Naru (or has heard about our "negotiations" with Naru), then they're going to be the ones who don't trust us to hold honest negotiations; they'll do everything remotely if possible (e.g. talk to us on the phone and tell us to drop off the cubes at such-and-such location and then they'll mail the gems to us or something like that).
 
It's ironic that you're worried about this considering that this is exactly what we did in the previous negotiation. If the other party is Naru (or has heard about our "negotiations" with Naru), then they're going to be the ones who don't trust us to hold honest negotiations; they'll do everything remotely if possible (e.g. talk to us on the phone and tell us to drop off the cubes at such-and-such location and then they'll mail the gems to us or something like that).
Unless I'm mistaken, they have always been the first to initiate hostilities.
 
You make the call to the kidnappers and offer to pay them the two grief cubes, and two girls will meet with them to make the exchange. They seem a bit surprised at the prospect of two, but after a bit of hurried whispering they agree to the meet. Luckily for you they agree to meet in a warehouse rather than someplace public.

Shinobu manages to jump the six of you including Kyouko into Iwata in a single trip that leaves her panting and her soul gem tarnished, but you didn't want to risk more than one teleport, as they were fairly detectable to a magical girl's mystical senses and if she took multiple trips it might tip them off to your numbers. Though admittedly it was unlikely this particular group would pick up on that.

Kaoru and Taura carry the precious cartons of grief cubes under their arms to the drop location while the rest of you find an adjacent rooftop to hide on. Taura links you into her own senses so you can observe. Three girls show up to the drop and Kaoru immediately questions them about where Kaori is, which virtually guarantees they think about it. Next to you Kit touches Shinobu and they vanish, presumably to Kaori's location.

You on the other hand take that as your cue to launch yourself from the rooftop through a very unfortunate window and into the group of girls. Taura and Kaoru admit it was kind of abrupt and halfway terrifying even for them how in the space of an eyeblink they'd gone from conversation to the three opponents being trussed up in ribbons. The gap between an elite and a green is simply insurmountable. They had no time to even react to your dynamic entry. Kyouko scoffs from behind you commenting that you've gone soft for simply tying them up.

It's a few more minutes of anxious waiting before Shinobu pops back into existence with Kaori, Kaoru, and the fourth green. There's a lot of blood. You find yourself wishing that you'd brought a healer with you. Kaori has a rather disturbing slice across her abdomen dripping blood, and the fourth green is missing a hand. Both wounds are tied off with a bit of gauze. Kaoru rushes Kaori and holds her tightly enough you expect that would stem the bleeding on its own.
We faked the "negotiation" and used Telepathy/Teleportation/Violence to ambush them.
 
I am referring to them abducting one of our group beforehand.
Which is exactly the same situation that we're facing right now. Our enemies have valid cause to expect us to be untrustworthy and violent in a negotiation. If they ask for a face-to-face negotiation, it would only be because they either do not know about our reputation (unlikely) or else they are preparing a counter-ambush. So I expect that the other group and/or our group will insist on doing the negotiations remotely.
 
If the other party resorts to tactics like this as a first action, their demands in negotiations are likely to be unreasonable.
On the contrary, it speaks to what they feel is necessary to be in a position to make any demands at all.

If it is the, highly unlikely, case that they just want healing, then that's a reasonable desire even if it doesn't warrant kidnapping our people. If they do demand unreasonable things, then the benefit to having negotiated is that we know who attacked us and won't go harring off to strike at the wrong people.
Just as a note, I quite doubt that 'healing' will be what they demand. I suspect that that is their ultimate goal, but that the demand will be the means by which they can accomplish it (ie: cubes, or the territory to gain cubes from), in a rather brute-force approach. Figuring out the actual goal they want to accomplish would be part of making the negotiations solvable.

This is a standard pattern I see in all aspects of customer/tech support (ie: where people demand something be done): they don't actually understand the root problem they're trying to solve, or decide they've already figured out how to solve it, and just want the means to accomplish that. For my part on the programming side, I have to break what they say down into tiny pieces to figure out what they're really asking for, in order to build an actual solution that isn't just a band-aid patch.

Since our primary suspect is Naru, we should ask Ayako about her and the other 3 greens. One of them might have been the clairvoyant sniper or the teleporter.
I think this might be a bit of an OOC action. A lot of the reason we suspect them is due to omake knowledge, and is not something Kyouko would be aware of. Kyouko can be suspicious, and maybe ask leading questions, but direct questions like that seem out of place.

Unless I'm mistaken, they have always been the first to initiate hostilities.
Depends on how you define 'hostilities'. There are definitely different tiers, and Kaori's initial kidnapping was about as low as you can get on that scale, while the response escalated well above that. They (assuming this is Naru) have escalated sufficiently beyond that scale that it's not possible for the Serene to counter-escalate to the same degree and retain any degree of safety.

Basically, "If you want to play the game that way, we can play it too." The demands in the Kaori incident were actually quite reasonable (explicitly noted as such in the update); the Serenes were just in a position where we flat out couldn't afford it. If you go back and look at it, they were essentially asking for 1 cube to make up the deficit of what they couldn't afford (4 girls in a 3-territory), plus one cube for the hostage that they intended to keep to ensure we kept paying. Given that the second cube was one that we had to pay anyway (ie: Kaori's normal upkeep), it was literally a demand for 1 cube per month to keep a girl from dying. And we came down on them like a ton of bricks, and kicked them out of their territory and home.

So the idea that they might hold a rather lasting grudge, and that any action they take is going to have a significant number of safeguards, is something that should take no effort at all to see.

As for the idea of starting a fight to capture their seeds or whatever? The instant we show that we literally cannot be trusted to negotiate in good faith, I'm betting those soul gems get crushed. There's just no point in even trying to work with someone like that. (and by 'someone' I mean 'us')

If this is Naru, and if they have been in contact with Ayako and Mariko, they will have been told that Ayako and Mariko, at least, believe the hype — that the Serene are the 'good guys'. If Ayako is acting as a double agent, and Mariko's capture was accepted as part of the deal, they're putting their lives on the line in their faith that Mami will pull through and prove them right. If she goes murderhobo....
 
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On the contrary, it speaks to what they feel is necessary to be in a position to make any demands at all.
And you expect us to negotiate "in good faith" with them? How can you see that succeeding?

So the idea that they might hold a rather lasting grudge, and that any action they take is going to have a significant number of safeguards, is something that should take no effort at all to see.
Yes, I am very well aware of that. Do give me some credit, please.
 
And you expect us to negotiate "in good faith" with them? How can you see that succeeding?
By people reacting well to others that act in good faith? And because acting in bad faith is a great way to fail and kill people?

I'm defining the minimum 'success' as retrieving the soul gems of the hostaged girls, and no one dying. There are a variety of methods of achieving that goal.

The only safe way to succeed while acting in bad faith is to have overwhelming superiority, such as was the case in the first kidnapping. That is patently not the case now. Acting in bad faith is an extremely dangerous approach, and almost guaranteed to cost us far more in the long run (in lives, faith, and morale), solely to assuage some people's egos.

If the demands are unreasonable, we negotiate until they are reasonable. If they cannot be negotiated with on the surface, figure out the underlying motivations and work from there. If it is fundamentally impossible to come to terms, then there is war. Every step of the way must be accomplished in good faith, though, or we become the villains.
 
Since our primary suspect is Naru, we should ask Ayako about her and the other 3 greens. One of them might have been the clairvoyant sniper or the teleporter.
I think this might be a bit of an OOC action. A lot of the reason we suspect them is due to omake knowledge, and is not something Kyouko would be aware of. Kyouko can be suspicious, and maybe ask leading questions, but direct questions like that seem out of place.
The primary reason that we have to suspect Naru is not from an Omake, but from the basic facts: we kicked 4 girls out of this area 7 months ago who were involved in a kidnapping and now somebody is causing problems in the area. It's also not unreasonable to assume that Kyouko knows that Ayako was one of the girls who was "recruited" from this area and would therefore have some knowledge about the 4 girls who were kicked out.

If the demands are unreasonable, we negotiate until they are reasonable. If they cannot be negotiated with on the surface, figure out the underlying motivations and work from there. If it is fundamentally impossible to come to terms, then there is war. Every step of the way must be accomplished in good faith, though, or we become the villains.
Our opponents attacked us without provocation or warning using demons and deadly force and kidnapping. It's already war. We might be able to negotiate a cease fire, but those negotiations would necessarily need to be done remotely because neither side trusts the other. I don't recommend negotiating in bad faith (i.e. we shouldn't promise anything in the negotiations that we aren't willing to actually follow up on), but I hold little hope that the negotiations will succeed in ending the conflict. To be honest, it seems like a long shot that we will actually be able to retrieve Mariko and Sora alive.
 
Personally, I think I'm in support of the classic 'speak softly and carry a big stick'. Also, getting known for massive retaliation/disproportionate retribution is a good way to enforce peace. Risky, but in an organizational manner we kinda are in a state of constant MAD- defense is far harder than offense. Make it known that we are advocates of diplomacy but that if diplomacy fails/they strike first, they will be ruthlessly crushed.

Also, I just realized something that's slightly worrying. We know from simple math that Kyouko must have a stash of ~100 cubes. (see below). Where is she storing them? We know that cube storage is actually a big deal, and her old state of homelessness makes it unlikely that she found somewhere actually secure.

It could just be game mechanics and they're all gone now, but I'm rather worried about that many cubes located in unknown locations throughout our territory. Even though they're not depleted, I'd much rather them stored somewhat securely. I have no problem with Kyouko keeping a personal store of a couple years, but this is quite frankly ridiculous. If an enemy with clairvoyants scouts them out, they'll be able to sustain harassment operations in our territory far longer than we'd be able to do to them.


Math: Kyouko was harvesting 8 cubes/month, and using 2 cubes/month. She was gaining 6 cubes/month for an unknown amount of time, but it had been roughly 1.5 years before we contacted her, giving 18 months at 6 cubes/month=108 cubes stashed. It was ~2 years until we actually recruited her, and she gave us 27 cubes. (turn 23) We should expect a minimum of 80 and likely many more cubes stored/spread in her territory.
 
Also, I just realized something that's slightly worrying. We know from simple math that Kyouko must have a stash of ~100 cubes. (see below). Where is she storing them? We know that cube storage is actually a big deal, and he state of homelessness makes it unlikely that she found somewhere actually secure.
We also know that Mami knows how to store them safely, and presumably Kyouko does as well (quite possibly taught by Mami). If she stored them in the basement of her church or something like that, the odds of anyone stumbling across them by accident (clairvoyant or otherwise) is infinitesimal. It's not something I'd worry about, but I suppose checking with helix helps make sure it's not a potential issue.

When does this quest take place again? Is it possible to call in a favor from Homura?
It's post-Madokami. Homura exists, but while Homura would know of Mami and Kyouko and Sayaka, none of them have ever met her in this timeline (that we know of).
 
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