Worm Morality Debate Thread

Gain what? The PRT basically has nothing at this point. What could they possibly have to negotiate with? Taylor has gone out of her to way to basically say anything the PRT can do, they can do better/more brutally.
There are plenty of things that the PRT can give them and that they want. Or did you forget one of the reasons Taylor try to hand herself over? Things like pardon, honest deals, allowing them to piggyback on PRT infrastructure to go into Endbringer fights around the world. Eventual transition and cooperation when it comes to defending the city against villain groups that are much worse, because the Undersiders know that they can't keep the city by themselves.

That said, that is a lot to give. And the potential for talks to break down and for negotiations to reach a stalemate is very real. But even in that case, the PRT's best play is to just play turtle, not to force a confrontation. Hunker down and hold what territory they can hold. Stay safe while watching on as the Undersiders get weakened down by rivals. In which case, once a certain amount of time has pass, the PRT could try to negotiate once again, but this time in a position of strength with the Undersiders seeking them for help. Or if the Undersiders are weak or distracted enough and their rivals are down and the opportunity present itself, then they could roll in with everything and claim back the city. Either way, it has much less risk of hurting the PRT than forcing a direct confrontation against them would do.

There is also another possibility. That the Undersiders keeps winning and never needs help and the PRT in Brockton Bay just keeps on looking impotent and weak. Which would certainly be troublesome, however again in the strategic and grand scale, the damage that would cause pale in comparison to the damages that doing a direct attempt on Skitter while clearly breaching the Endbringer truce would do to the PRT and the worldwide effort against the Endbringers.

So when it comes down to it. It is frankly in the best interest of everyone to get some kind of compromise going on. It might or might not happen, but it is the best outcome either side could hope for.
 
There is also another possibility. That the Undersiders keeps winning and never needs help and the PRT in Brockton Bay just keeps on looking impotent and weak. Which would certainly be troublesome, however again in the strategic and grand scale, the damage that would cause pale in comparison to the damages that doing a direct attempt on Skitter while clearly breaching the Endbringer truce would do to the PRT and the worldwide effort against the Endbringers.
Its also quite possible that the PRT could end up looking so weak that they`ll have no choice BUT to go to all out war.
 
Its also quite possible that the PRT could end up looking so weak that they`ll have no choice BUT to go to all out war.
No, that would be the worst combination of options. Not only would it cause the PRT to look weak, it makes them look desperate, at the end of their wits, and it damages efforts against the Endbringers, and then it forces Tattletale to reveal the dirt on Alexandria and whatever else dirt she's managed to get, and it would piss off people within the PRT and Protectorate, further dividing the Heroes.

I'm assuming that if things get bad enough, they'll either just accept the lose, get out of Brockton Bay and refocus efforts and attention on another city, rebuilding their reputation, which they needed anyways internally. Or they'll just blame everyone on the Brockton Bay Branch, throwing their names under the bus in order to preserve their reputation. But again, that is in the worst possible situation, which is very unlikely to happen for a number of reason, one of which is that neither the Undersiders nor the BB PRT wants such a thing.
 
No, that would be the worst combination of options. Not only would it cause the PRT to look weak, it makes them look desperate, at the end of their wits, and it damages efforts against the Endbringers, and then it forces Tattletale to reveal the dirt on Alexandria and whatever else dirt she's managed to get, and it would piss off people within the PRT and Protectorate, further dividing the Heroes.

I'm assuming that if things get bad enough, they'll either just accept the lose, get out of Brockton Bay and refocus efforts and attention on another city, rebuilding their reputation, which they needed anyways internally. Or they'll just blame everyone on the Brockton Bay Branch, throwing their names under the bus in order to preserve their reputation. But again, that is in the worst possible situation, which is very unlikely to happen for a number of reason, one of which is that neither the Undersiders nor the BB PRT wants such a thing.

I honestly doubt the PRT would ever do any of this, or what you mentioned before, even if it wasn`t Tagg in charge. All this does is give the Undersiders more weight and power and privilege then they already have, basically letting the PRT hand their perks on a silver platter rather then actually fight for it as in canon.

I disagree with how Tagg decided to choose specifically to use Taylor`s name, but negotiation with such a weak hand and in such a weak position wouldn`t be a good choice either. The PRT would have to at least push back just as hard to put them on an even keel before negotiations can be brought up.
 
I honestly doubt the PRT would ever do any of this, or what you mentioned before, even if it wasn`t Tagg in charge. All this does is give the Undersiders more weight and power and privilege then they already have, basically letting the PRT hand their perks on a silver platter rather then actually fight for it as in canon.

I disagree with how Tagg decided to choose specifically to use Taylor`s name, but negotiation with such a weak hand and in such a weak position wouldn`t be a good choice either. The PRT would have to at least push back just as hard to put them on an even keel before negotiations can be brought up.
You are correct, however the issue is how to push without pushing too much. The situation with BB and the Undersiders is frankly one that could completely destroy the PRT if handle it wrong and there a lot of ways for things to go wrong and not many that I see for it to go right when it comes to pushing.

In such a situation, they are not left with any good choices so much as the least sucky choice. And the least sucky choice with the least risk is probably to just either try to negotiate or let them have the city, neither of which are good by any definition, but at least they won't have horrifically bad consequences if things go wrong.
 
The problem is, you said it yourself that they need/want the PRT Infrastructure. So TT's threats of blackmail could be partially hollow. At the very least, it just ruins my already sour opinion of the Undersiders more so if they would be that petty to destroy the entire worldwide organization, and thus put the world that much more in danger.
 
The problem is, you said it yourself that they need/want the PRT Infrastructure. So TT's threats of blackmail could be partially hollow. At the very least, it just ruins my already sour opinion of the Undersiders more so if they would be that petty to destroy the entire worldwide organization, and thus put the world that much more in danger.
Oh certainly, her threats are hollow. So long as they don't fuck with her and her friends, she won't fuck with them. That's an entirely human thing to do. But it is also a human thing to do for the PRT to not take the risk with this shit. And it is also human for the Undersiders to keep up the mask that they will do it, because they know it protects them from large scale attacks from the PRT. So really it becomes a game of chicken, one that is certainly unsustainable, because really, they are playing with MAD on, and no one wins in that. So in that case, the safest thing for both side to do is to leave each other alone and to not fuck with each other and maybe try and get good relationships back up again, and then negotiate, because hostilities between them hurts everyone and benefits no one.
 
Oh certainly, her threats are hollow. So long as they don't fuck with her and her friends, she won't fuck with them. That's an entirely human thing to do. But it is also a human thing to do for the PRT to not take the risk with this shit. And it is also human for the Undersiders to keep up the mask that they will do it, because they know it protects them from large scale attacks from the PRT. So really it becomes a game of chicken, one that is certainly unsustainable, because really, they are playing with MAD on, and no one wins in that. So in that case, the safest thing for both side to do is to leave each other alone and to not fuck with each other and maybe try and get good relationships back up again, and then negotiate, because hostilities between them hurts everyone and benefits no one.
Its also a very human thing to decide that you'll have to make the first move.
 
And what should the first move be?
Not sure, but just waiting or negotiating at the time in question doesn't seem viable to me. Especially IC as the Undersiders (especially Taylor) has basically come off regularly as untrustworthy and manipulative. Even on a strictly objective view, I still wouldn't trust them to negotiate fairly.
 
Not sure, but just waiting or negotiating at the time in question doesn't seem viable to me. Especially IC as the Undersiders (especially Taylor) has basically come off regularly as untrustworthy and manipulative. Even on a strictly objective view, I still wouldn't trust them to negotiate fairly.
Without a viable first move to push things to their advantage that won't start a chain reaction that would wreck themselves in the process, then the PRT is basically forced into a position where their least sucky choices are to either wait it out or negotiating.
 
Without a viable first move to push things to their advantage that won't start a chain reaction that would wreck themselves in the process, then the PRT is basically forced into a position where their least sucky choices are to either wait it out or negotiating.
So the choice is either negotiate with a known, criminal warlord who's known to be untrustworthy and will very much get the sweet end of the deal, making you overall weak. Or, you try for a chance to stop said criminal once and for all and try to get some strength back that your organization desperately needs.

Yeah, I'd pick the latter in a heartbeat.
 
Its also a very human thing to decide that you'll have to make the first move.

Insofar that being really stupid is human, sure.

Look, the choice ultimately boils down to two options. Do you want to fight and possibly die, and definitely fuck up the city even more. Or do you want to not die, and not make things harder for the people still living in the city?

Does your personal podunk brand of morality give a shit about the well being of actual people who will get caught in the crossfire of a moral crusade or not?
 
Insofar that being really stupid is human, sure.

Look, the choice ultimately boils down to two options. Do you want to fight and possibly die, and definitely fuck up the city even more. Or do you want to not die, and not make things harder for the people still living in the city?

Does your personal podunk brand of morality give a shit about the well being of actual people who will get caught in the crossfire of a moral crusade or not?
You know for someone who complains I see everything as simple black and white terms, you seem to latch onto that the entire situation can be simplified to just two choices.
 
Honestly, the MBT`s seem unnessisary. Either scare the kids to get them to disperse, or quickly fly up and over them to grab Taylor out of the crowd before they can react.
I was referring to the Dragon suit as an MBT equivalent. And how the fuck do you plan on flying over the kids indoors?
 
So the choice is either negotiate with a known, criminal warlord who's known to be untrustworthy and will very much get the sweet end of the deal, making you overall weak. Or, you try for a chance to stop said criminal once and for all and try to get some strength back that your organization desperately needs.

Yeah, I'd pick the latter in a heartbeat.
You forgot all the consequences that comes with the latter. So let me just quote myself.


So assuming this is still Worm and Skitter?

Well first I have to take into account the Unspoken rules. Since right now, the PRT and the Protectorate is extremely weakened and divided in the aftermath of Edchina. I have to consider if we could take the hit that breaking the secret identity rule would cause to the Endbringer Battles and wheter or not taking out Skitter and only Skitter like this is worthwhile.

Now, on one hand, this could be the PR boost we need to restore confidence among the public both locally and nationally, a show of strenght and confidence, unite some factions within the organisation, booster recruitment in the future and potentially allow us to take back this city with the Criminal faction left leaderless, if we move quick enough and powerful enough that the locals who do support them end up not mattering.

On the other hand, I have to remember a few important facts. One, the Undersiders enjoy relatively large support among the locals, so moving to take them out could run into opposition, which could become disastrous if my attempt at capturing her ends up in a situation where my forces are seen opposed to the civilian population. Two, even without Skitter the Undersiders are a veteran group of villains with some very scary powers and they could do a lot of damage in retaliation. Grue can turn off all communications in the city and out of the city, Regent can take over people's bodies and considering how long he's had his own territory he likely has a number of patsies he could use for some very nasty shit which could not only hurt us, but with some smart planning on their parts turn the public against us. Bitch's dogs are basically walking tanks that are superbly agile, but while they can hit very hard they are actually the least dangerous things in this situation. No, the most dangerous one is Tattletale, who potentially has a mountain full of blackmail info that she could use to utterly ruin us, that's not counting the one fact that every Undersider knows, the identity of the Ex-Director. If that were to go out, then we would take irreparable damages. Beyond that, if we break the rule on secret identities, well she'll break them, not only painting big targets behind our heroes's backs, but also making future recruitment to be an utter bitch.

That's also not taking into account that the respect secret identity rules is crucial to the Endbringer defense. By using her secret identity, I would be telling all the villains that I would just catch them and fuck the truce. Meaning that they wouldnt help. Not only would that result in far more deaths and destruction among normals, but my own Capes are going to be bleed dry which further weakens us.

All in all, it seems that a direct confrontation is very much not only supoptimal, but also very much not worth it. Especially when in a school full of teenagers, thus full of cameras, witnesses and also potential collateral. Now in Tagg's defense, he is a military man, so I assume that he was aware of all of this. Otherwise he'd be stupid. So he was likely manipulated by Dinah and since she is the most powerful thinker precog, I would probably listen to her advice. Then again, we don't know for sure what kind of questions he asked her and how he asked her, and again how she responded the questions. So it's possible that a man who is less rash with a less militant background could have seen the trap and avoided it.

That would be my primary criticism of him. He acted too rashly and while Dinah did manipulate him, it is very possible, considering what we know of her powers and his personality that her answers led to him assuming things. So a much more subtle sort of manipulation that only made him want to do what he was already doing to do. In which case, maybe he just didn't care about the consequences, was more focused on the battle than the war. Anyways he had Skitter's identity, meaning that he now had leverage over her, that's something that he could have kept in his pocket and reserved for a more appropriate situation. Or used to directly or discreetly contact her, and thus forcing her to the negotiating table, proving both that I do have leverage, but also that I am perfectly willing to talk and not be stupid.

Risky? Certainly, but by questioning the Wards and the local PRT, and Dragon and Defiant, I could probably tell that she would be willing to talk. And this has less chances of going wrong and hurting the entire organisation than just brute forcing the issue.

When attacking is only going to end up making you even weaker and destroy your ability to do anything on a grand scale, then you don't pick the latter. Because the costs are way too high.

Now all actions have consequences. However, it just happens that while both options are costly, the former costs far less than the latter and won't leave you as a wreck unable to do your duty.

You can also regain the organisation's strength through negotiating with the Undersiders. It's risky, but in the event of failure, the consequences are basically non existent when compared to the consequence of trying to take them out and failing.

Now, if you can give me an attack strategy that would neutralize all the risks or at least have a good chance of doing so, then by all means. Let me see it. If not, then practicality have to be used.
 
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Now, if you can give me an attack strategy that would neutralize all the risks or at least have a good chance of doing so, then by all means. Let me see it. If not, then practicality have to be used.
I'll admit, I can't think of something. But to be frank, the entire situation as is as a reader, just makes me see the Undersiders as incredibly unsympathetic and made me wish they'd honestly lose.

I know that's just an opinion of the situation and not exactly helpful, but that's simply what I find myself taking away from all this.
 
I still don't get why the Undersiders are unsympathetic during the Warlord Arc. Specifically Taylor.

From the actual canon, Taylor does these things:
• Finds housing for refugees
• Takes care of orphans with PTSD
• Provides gainful employment
• Provides food
• Organizes clean-up crews
• Curtails violent gang behavior
• Holds a Barbecue
• Stops Mannequin from killing everyone
• Uses nonlethal takedowns (mostly)

I get that she uses a "Might is Right" approach, but technically so does the PRT and Protectorate.

Does the fact that a legal body considers Taylor a criminal outweigh the good she's doing? There are many times throughout human history that figures have done positive things for their communities and been labeled criminals for it. Should we always trust a government to provide our morality for us?

These aren't attacks on anyone, I'm honestly trying to crowdsource opinions here.
 
Polokun has a tendency of solely focusing on Taylor's bad actions, to an obsessive degree, and either forgetting or ignoring the good she did. As he likes to build a narrative that she's a monstrously horrible person while ignoring the complexities inherent in humans.
 
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Polokun has a tendency of solely focusing on Taylor's bad actions, to an obsessive degree, and either forgetting or ignoring the good she did. As he likes to build a narrative that she's a monstrously horrible person while ignoring the complexities inherent in humans.

To be fair, people forgetting or misremembering facts in the story that are inconvenient to their super amazing personal interpretations is pretty common. How many people remember that Tattletale was flat out organizing and working in a literal refugee pavilion? With little to no actual super villain nonsense involved? Oh what's that? Fucking no one?

It's just that here its taken to completely crazy levels that make me wonder whether there's something else going on that driving the hate-on.
 
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I still don't get why the Undersiders are unsympathetic during the Warlord Arc. Specifically Taylor.

Well, for one there's the whole Warlord thing. For another all the damage they cause while under Coil's command. Once he's gone they admittedly mellow out a little, but by then I'm way more supportive of the heroes' desire to take the Undersiders down than I am of the Undersiders themselves.

Seriously, I can appreciate that Taylor tries to be good, but she needs to have way more conversations with the people who think what she's doing is not okay instead of surrounding herself with yes-men.
 
Well, for one there's the whole Warlord thing. For another all the damage they cause while under Coil's command. Once he's gone they admittedly mellow out a little, but by then I'm way more supportive of the heroes' desire to take the Undersiders down than I am of the Undersiders themselves.

Seriously, I can appreciate that Taylor tries to be good, but she needs to have way more conversations with the people who think what she's doing is not okay instead of surrounding herself with yes-men.

As this is a morality thread, I will now ask the question that is sort of important.

What is "Good"?

Because we all keep using that word and I'm not sure we all mean the same thing when we say it.
 
As this is a morality thread, I will now ask the question that is sort of important.

What is "Good"?

Because we all keep using that word and I'm not sure we all mean the same thing when we say it.

To me, it's not just about doing good, but also actually trying to BE good. And not just being good when it's convenient, but also when it's the harder/not so easy choice.

As in not considering yourself above good and evil, murdering people on their knees, blackmailing and extorting to get what you want, etc.
 
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