The problem with Cauldron is that they have a watered down version of this
It makes it difficult to argue about them, especially since you don't know where their knowledge begins and ends.
Worm Morality Debate Thread
- Thread starter SolipsistSerpent
- Start date
It makes it difficult to argue about them, especially since you don't know where their knowledge begins and ends.
Polokun
Dragonheart
For the record, I was just playing devil's advocate over why I think Taylor and Tagg's actions are equally valid in their POV, even though I consider both vile for doing them.
Except they're not. The difference is that Tagg is a law enforcement officer trying to put down a criminal and Taylor isn't.
Either Tagg is worse because of that. Or Taylor is.
They're not equal either way.
- Location
- Patriarchova
No they don't. Contessa explicitly doesn't know how to kill Scion and is letting Doctor Mother, a random lady off the street, call the shots.
Ah, fair enough.
But look at it from Taylor's perspective. Tagg is working for Alexandria, who is an accessory to mass murder and torture if not an active participant in it herself. Tagg and Alexandria threaten her family and friends, and then make Taylor think that they've killed her best friend and lover. She has no reason to doubt that they would actually do this, because she already knows that Cauldron has done much worse.
Her reaction, based on what she knew, was understandable. Its unfortunate that Tagg was manipulated into this position by his superiors who wanted Taylor to kill or maim him so they could Birdcage her. I see him as less a villain and more a useful idiot who got taken advantage of...assuming he was bluffing when he threatened her dad, of course. If he wasn't, my sympathy for him is nonexistent.
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It doesn't matter to the point? They don't have to know. Contessa can also explicitly model events that she can't see.
So they're better off than just about anyone else information wise. So if Contessa says that keeping the apocalypse secret is in their interests how do you argue? Sure, she's not absolutely sure but she's more likely to be sure than anyone else alive and it is thus reasonable to follow her advice.
On top of that there's the issue of stakes. Because of the stakes it is justifiable to seize every possible advantage.
Combine these problems and you have the Cauldron Dilemma. It's veeery difficult to make an argument.
I thought we were talking about the threats?
Alexandria didn't threaten her father at the same time as the Undersiders because she was using her father as a psychological thorn. It seems the whole timeline is fuzzy. This must have happened after Taylor was captured. But...it would surely have been before but they didn't discuss her identity until after Tagg outed her and she surrendered.
As for the Undersiders...well, tough? She said "capture or kill". If criminals are killed resisting arrest then tough.
Taylor is of course a person. She's free to feel sad. But that's not really important since the Undersiders are not innocent.
Danny being killed would be a justification. Brian? Nah.
Polokun
Dragonheart
Keeping in mind her "Friends" are also confirmed criminals.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Considering that Alexandria said in as many words that she would kill some of the Undersiders without needing to just to punish Taylor? Yes, yes it would be a fucking justification.
I also think its absolutely insane that you're demonizing Taylor while defending Cauldron.
Thrice.Great
Full of Various Wiles (Verified God)
- Location
- the Noosphere
So you think crimes DO change severity depending on who commits them or is affected. I see.
Polokun
Dragonheart
When you get down to it, Cauldron, and Doctor Mother especially, is pretty much what Taylor would be like if she were at such a bigger scale/stakes.
No. I was just making a point that they're still criminals regardless if they're also Taylor's friends.
- Location
- Patriarchova
I see them as what she ran the risk of becoming (and arguably did become at the end) throughout the story.
Polokun
Dragonheart
Brings a whole new side of discomfort when you remember just how cold DM pretty much was.
I absolutely defend Cauldron. But not right there. What I said was that Cauldron was essentially granted authorial fiat magic powers that make discussing their actions super difficult.
What it boils down to is: Cauldron does stupid things. Either it's so stupid it's authorial fiat or some arcane message from PtV stopped it.
The discussion ends up being: why would they do something so stupid? Meh, magic powers or the author wanted a superhero setting and used magic powers to make it happen.
'
I don't really recall demonizing Taylor. Let's not use inflammatory language. I asked you multiple times to name the incident. In the absence of the incident I said that she's not morally right to kill a law enforcement officer for killing her criminal friends but the law enforcement officer would be wrong to kill an innocent. Where is this demonizing?
Also: not what Alexandria said.
Then:
So even Tattletale, who is a threat, was supposed to be captured.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Right. The difference is that DM defended her Hard Decisions to literally her dying breath, while Taylor - after almost dooming the world - realized that it was the wrong way to do things and instead used her powers to teach and show the other capes how to beat Scion.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Then I think you've missed the entire point of the story.
Don't feel like trawling through Worm right now for the specific line where Alexandria said she'd kill some of the Undersiders for the hell of it, but I read it just a few days ago. You'll have to either take my word that its in there, or not.
I think I can decide how to feel about things. The author is dead.
Besides, there is such a thing as a limited defence. I was quite clear about what I was talking about in this thread. And it has nothing to do with this.
Or... you can take my word, considering that I actually took the time to provide quotes?
And I just finished looking through the chapter. She's literally only in that chapter so...yeah.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Why even mention the possibility of killing them unless you're using it to intimidate someone else and threaten their friends? I mean, it's a known possibility that in any cape fight there might be lethal violence done in self-defense, but she's clearly bringing it up as a threat. Plus, she doesn't sound like she's the one who feels threatened and is going to be sadly forced to kill one of them if they 'resist arrest.' She's the one turning their arrests into a pressure-game when if she really wanted to end the US criminal empire she'd just capture them all, call the PRT, round them up and call it a day.
Instead she played bullshit, quasi-legal at best games.
Instead she played bullshit, quasi-legal at best games.
Of course it was supposed to get to Taylor.Who cares?
Cop: tell us where to find the drugs or we'll raid all your stash houses and, if any of your thug friends try to hurt us we'll be forced to shoot back. The consequences will be on you.
Cop2: Your husband is on the run and he's shooting cops. Tell him to come in because, if he keeps shooting cops they'll return the favor.
Clearly there's a chance that the thug friends or husband will die. That's just obvious. There's a difference between that and "I will roll a die and kill your friends".
You're absolutely right that she has her own ends. But that's kinda irrelevant to Taylor's actions or position.The claim was that Taylor was in some way justified because Alexandria threatened to kill her friends just cause. Since the evidence for that is...pending and the opposite case has some evidence behind it and her friends were actual threats...I don't really care.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I mean, I don't disagree in some sense that there was a lot of crazy shit happening around Alexandria's death. In a just world she'd have been tried for War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity, taken up against a wall once found guilty, and shot. That'd be the ideal end for Alexandria, with prison sentences or worse for most of Cauldron, since what they are doing is slavery, crimes against humanity, and various flavors of war-crimes, in addition to the numerous, numerous 'smaller' crimes that Alexandria has aided and abetted.
There's also the fact that as part of the threat, Alexandria isn't actually threatened. It's clear she's an arrogant SOB, considering how much she underestimated Taylor's ability to actually hurt her, so I don't buy for a moment that there is literally *any* situation she can imagine where she's genuinely threatened enough to use lethal force.
Imagine if the cops in those scenarios wore power-armor so strong that the criminals literally couldn't HURT them, would it then be justified if in "self-defense" they wound up killing some of the 'bangers?
Edit: Additional proof that she in no way felt threatened enough to justify self-defense. She's the one that turned it into a game of taking one every so often. If she really felt as if exposing herself to them was a risk that could have justified self-defense, then she has no reason to play games with their lives (and her own) when a single tactical strike would have decreased both *her* and *their* chances of deaths.
There's also the fact that as part of the threat, Alexandria isn't actually threatened. It's clear she's an arrogant SOB, considering how much she underestimated Taylor's ability to actually hurt her, so I don't buy for a moment that there is literally *any* situation she can imagine where she's genuinely threatened enough to use lethal force.
Imagine if the cops in those scenarios wore power-armor so strong that the criminals literally couldn't HURT them, would it then be justified if in "self-defense" they wound up killing some of the 'bangers?
Edit: Additional proof that she in no way felt threatened enough to justify self-defense. She's the one that turned it into a game of taking one every so often. If she really felt as if exposing herself to them was a risk that could have justified self-defense, then she has no reason to play games with their lives (and her own) when a single tactical strike would have decreased both *her* and *their* chances of deaths.
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She outright says that TT knows her weaknesses AND that she's worried about the situation (not just physical threats but the sort of thing Taylor did to Coil to get him to show her Tattletale or what people claim TT did to Amy).
But you know the funny thing? Alexandria doesn't actually kill the first person that threatens her. She says that the first Undersider she captured tried to drown her. But it didn't work yet they're not dead. So she's clearly willing to put up with people trying to kill her if they're not a big enough threat. Of course, she doesn't kill anyone at all so I'm not sure it matters, from her perspective (clearly it does from Taylor's), and that's where the cops vs. bangers analogy breaks down.
It's a possibility. And one that's there because,well, shit happens. The Undersiders especially have spent time munchkining their way to victory. It's a way to tell Taylor:"you might have a plan, but I'm not just going to sit around and take it. If you do come up with something dangerous I'll kill you. Weigh your chances of victory against your desire to see your friends die and make a choice."
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
No in a JUST world Cauldron would never have needed to do those things and people would have worked with them to try and find solutions that don't involve doing all that stuff. They TRIED doing things the right way and failed (also because they were going about things the wrong way and never realized Scion's avatar wasn't his main body" so over the course of nearly 30-40 years they grew callous and detached from the suffering they had inflicted because they were too obsessed with SAVING HUMANITY! and seeing all their hopes and dreams go down the shitter thanks to the Endbringers.
I'm pretty sure that they knew that the avatar wasn't his body. I'm pretty sure that they also chose not to work with people. It was because of PtV but it was their choice.
Cauldron were screwed because everyone was screwed by default. The same info that made Contessa kill Eden is what stopped her from being able to kill Scion. She saw that Eden was a monster with limited emotions.Trying to bully Eden to death would be stupid. So when she saw Scion she couldn't know that his emotions were actually a real weakness until AFTER the fight had started. So there was no way to plan for it.
Scion lost because Taylor was able to track him across realities and see his reaction to various things (and this only happened because Cauldron killed Eden) and put together a full picture. By the time that happened it was far too late to come up with new plans.
Ughh, I know I'm going to regret this, but
Wrong on multiple counts. It was on the second sojourn to remove an Undersider from the field, and the Undersiders weren't the ones to try drowning Alexandria on that run. It was the Ambassadors.
No, last I heard, he's quite alive -.-
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
Because everyone would DIE because Mass panic/idiot shortsighted politicians and yes it was "their choice" just like how if a guy is told that if he wants to escape to safety he can just run through a minefield that will will ABSOLUTELY kill him is totally a valid "choice".
The Ambassadors weren't the target were they? She likely showed up for her target and there they were.
But that said, you're right. Perhaps, in the sham scenario, she totally killed some of the Ambassadors and chose not to mention it because...lol, supporting characters. Or perhaps Taylor would think that, which is the important bit.
And no, I'm not being sarcastic. She could do that.
YMMV on if Taylor assumed that she did of course.