Polokun
Dragonheart
Except Taylor! Who is so good, good, good.
Worm Morality Debate Thread
- Thread starter SolipsistSerpent
- Start date
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Except Taylor! Who is so good, good, good.
No one has ever said that. Taylor is a human being just like everyone else. She has done good things and bad things. Some of which are justified, but it does not change the fact that she did do them. Yet at the same time we cannot ignoring what caused her to arrive at this point. The Good does not erase the bad, just as the bad does not erase the good.
Polokun
Dragonheart
Yeah, but they were justified to her, so that makes it ok! All the so called "bad" is really just misinterpreted good! We should all be just like her, killing who we believe to be bad, mutilating people we believe to be morally wrong, extorting and blackmailing to get what we want (Which is good stuff, so it's totally ok!)
Thrice.Great
Full of Various Wiles (Verified God)
- Location
- the Noosphere
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Again, no one said that. Either stop freaking out, or stop strawmanning.
Saying someone is only ever right and good is just as false and damaging as saying that someone is only ever wrong and bad.
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Polokun
Dragonheart
Why? What could possibly be damaging about saying Taylor is absolutely good in everything she does and everyone who opposes her are just wrong/misinformed/evil because all Taylor has ever been is just one big victim who deserves nothing but praise?
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Because moral absolutism and a pure Black and White mentality has been the root cause of many horrific phenomenons in human history, even just in the last few decades. It's a poisonous mindset that does far more to harm discourse, the ability to handle and understand situation and the human race as a whole.
Polokun
Dragonheart
Ah! But we're just talking about Taylor! A singular instance and not just all of humanity! And she is absolute good during the entire story and is a pinnacle of all that is right in the world.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
How long are you going to keep on this charade of strawmanning? You could try to actually address my points intelligently.
Polokun
Dragonheart
Well, I've never once seen a real instance of people ever saying anything she did was bad or not justified at all. So that means in total, she's good!
- Location
- Patriarchova
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Her enslaving of every Cape still left alive was horrifying and the fact that it had good reason and saved the universe didn't mean it wasn't something that should have been punished. I think that having her powers taken away and being locked up in another universe was a fitting punishment, and since you don't believe in murder, Polokun, and you know there's no more Birdcage, I hope we could at least agree on that *one* point.
Polokun
Dragonheart
Naaaah. It was totally justified there too, cause capes would have just run away and died horribly unless she brought everything under her guidance and knowledge to keep everyone safe that what she was doing is right.
And that extends to all her worst supposed crimes too.
Because killing someone is totally ok as long as you can justify it.
.....
*sigh*
Do you know how physically ill I felt saying that last line? Believe it or not, I'm honestly crying right now.
Thrice.Great
Full of Various Wiles (Verified God)
- Location
- the Noosphere
Then maybe you need to stop posting in this thread. If having your moral framework challenged is this upsetting for you, then you need to stop torturing yourself and just avoid topics like this.
- Location
- Patriarchova
And here you're lying. Because I have said, if not directly to you then at least in conversations that we were both there for, that Taylor robbing the bank was wrong.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Agreed, she *thinks* she has justification, and considering she's underaged if caught she wouldn't be thrown in prison forever, but that was wrong and she was wrong to do so. I sympathize with her, of course, but that doesn't stop me from making moral judgments about her.
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
I say it was a shitty thing to do to the person who saved you, she let them go in the end after all. Punishment is stupid compared to rehabilitation anyway besides her brain was melting and she was unable to talk,read or write or otherwise communicate so she could'nt ask for any permission anyway and she could likely claim temporary insanity at least.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Which is again, your selective memory at work. Since I personally have said, just in the last thread before this one, that her actions as Weaver post time skip, while perhaps Justified are still not good.
Saying that something is justified does not mean that it is good. But it also does not mean that it is evil.
And if you want another reason as to why you only ever hear people talking about the justifications behind her actions, well to be frank it is because you are shit at debating. You constantly focuses on the minor things or the wrong things to try and paint her as an monstrous entity. You ignore whatever good she ever did and paints a narrative of her as a monster. But in doing so, you are often wrong and incorrect, something that most people can easily see.
What that does is that your shit arguments makes people who actually agree with you on her shittiness and how some her actions while justified are still bad, well you force them to have to actually argue against you. This is why I've talking about you Polokuing your arguments and your side of the debate. Because there exists good points and arguments to be made against Taylor. You just taint the waters so much and get things wrong to the point that even those who agrees with you do not want to support your argument, either because they are factually wrong or irrelevant, so they have to be against you, even if in the root of their minds they do agree with your basic point.
It's like if I was for abortion and I started calling foetus cancerous mass of flesh that does nothing and only ruins lives and that all babies should be killed, and calling everyone that is for abortion weak or males bastards. Obviously, not only am I wrong and offensive and ignoring the good points of the other side, but I've also alienated those who agree with me on this. Because 1)They do not want to be seen agreeing with me and 2) I'm so bad at this that they are driven to try and correct me even though they are on my side.
The same applies if I am against abortion and I started calling everyone who is for terrible heartless monsters with no souls who are taking lives away. I would be so wrong and so offensive that people on this site who agrees on the principle that abortion is bad would be horrified and wouldn't support me and would also argue against me to try and correct me.
I think there is a term for this, but I don't remember what it was.
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- Location
- Patriarchova
Wait, seriously?
Okay, I'm not sure how you managed to get so emotionally invested in a piece of media you don't even like, but try to calm down. We're having an internet argument about a story with superheroes and giant monsters in it. Try not to take this conversation so seriously, its really not that serious.
Yup. If it was up to me, she'd have been tried as a minor and sentenced to however much jail/juvie time and mandatory therapy the law requires. Honestly, that probably would have been good for her as well.
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Warning: Warning
- Location
- Southern Virginia
warning
Polokun, I think you can use a break from the thread to chill out before you go any further. This kind of internet drama meltdown is not acceptable and if continued will proceed to a point where you eat points. Everyone else should return to topic.
Thrice.Great
Full of Various Wiles (Verified God)
- Location
- the Noosphere
So that just happened.
On the Golden Morning topic, Khepri's actions are basically the most immoral things possible based on a Kantian ethic.
Actually, a lot of the ethical failings in worm seem to be more of the Kantian variety, which is to say that it seems Wildbow might see the violation of another person's agency as the worst kind of evil. The Trio, The Case 53s, Cauldron in general, Coil's treatment of Dinah, the kind of body horror that Amy and Bonesaw evoke, and the terror of Ziz are all based on the idea of turning other people into means to an end.
Which of course means that when she becomes Khepri, Taylor becomes something the setting has spent a fair amount of time building up as the ultimate in 'evil' in order to accomplish her goals.
Thoughts?
Also, bonus:
On the Golden Morning topic, Khepri's actions are basically the most immoral things possible based on a Kantian ethic.
Immanuel Kant said:
Actually, a lot of the ethical failings in worm seem to be more of the Kantian variety, which is to say that it seems Wildbow might see the violation of another person's agency as the worst kind of evil. The Trio, The Case 53s, Cauldron in general, Coil's treatment of Dinah, the kind of body horror that Amy and Bonesaw evoke, and the terror of Ziz are all based on the idea of turning other people into means to an end.
Which of course means that when she becomes Khepri, Taylor becomes something the setting has spent a fair amount of time building up as the ultimate in 'evil' in order to accomplish her goals.
Thoughts?
Also, bonus:
Something I think Sophia would totally misinterpret for herself to use as a justification for her actions.Immanuel Kant said:
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Kantian ethics are BULLSHIT. Any ethical system that seriously puts a plan that successfully prevents somewhere upwards of 10^30 deaths as being worse than doing nothing and letting those people die is worthless.
Interestingly enough, I agree that Tagg would have been justified in executing Taylor in self-defense once she started moving bugs. Or at the very least pulling out a gun and telling her to cut that shit out, now, or else he would definitely shoot her and then following up on it if she kept at it.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
I think that's a point that everyone agreed on. The fact that he didn't do that once the bugs did try to fuck him over suggest to me that Alexandria had basically ordered him to not kill Taylor before they started, probably so that they can blackmail her to work for them.
Dirty and amoral for sure, but it was not a bad plan and had it worked, it could have been a great coup for them. Tagg probably should have wore something protective though.
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Thrice.Great
Full of Various Wiles (Verified God)
- Location
- the Noosphere
I guess Kant never had to deal with supergods trying to blow up the planet. Because then he might have added an exemption or two?