- Location
- The Hague
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Controversial gaming opinion: video games are good.
What are controversial gaming opinions you have?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Foamy.
Kreia and KOTOR 2 subverted your expectations. That means they're good.
Subverting expectations in and of themselves is always narratively satisfying.
()
Shush you, you have a spinal reflex to dislike anything popular
ZerbanDaGreat
Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S
- Pronouns
- They/them
Ha.Shush you, you have a spinal reflex to dislike anything popular
The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
- Location
- Califat de Chats
Kreia's a very well-written villain who you know is a villain and can't do anything about because she takes extensive steps to stop you until circumstances finally override her. She'd be poorly written if she were a hero or meant to fool you, the audience. But she's not.
That's what makes Kreia such a good villain - she firmly and fundamentally believes that she is the greatest intellectual power in history. But she's not and you can crumble everything she works for before her very eyes in the space of less than a day after she spends years setting it up if you so choose because of it.
That's what makes Kreia such a good villain - she firmly and fundamentally believes that she is the greatest intellectual power in history. But she's not and you can crumble everything she works for before her very eyes in the space of less than a day after she spends years setting it up if you so choose because of it.
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
Yeah, but like... he's the thing.
What are KOTOR 2's themes? Well, I'd argue that some of them are:
- The Jedi are actually a highly flawed institution blinded by dogma who don't hold a monopoly on being right and good, and half the time cause their own problems.
- Viewing the world through the lens of a manichean good vs evil war between space wizards is an incomplete and harmful way of viewing the world.
- That defining yourself purely in terms of your allegiance in space wizard war is stupid and makes you an incomplete person.
This sounds like a big old fuck you deconstruction of Star Wars, but I think it really isn't. It's a criticism of the general ideas of Star Wars media, sure, but it's not that far off from some of the subtext in the OT.
Like, In the OT the Jedi aren't really shown to be the great heroes were lead to assume they are. Obi-Wan is a liar, both he and Yoda actively want Luke to kill Vader despite being his father. In the final confrontation Luke as a Jedi straight up fails to actually achieve anything, rejects the mission given to him by masters, and it's his connection with his father, the thing that goes beyond the conflict between Jedi and Sith that ends up saving him, sand all the normal people in the rebellion are the ones who end up actually beating the Empire.
Star Wars fans like to pass off Vader's betrayal of Sheev as, like, "oh he turned back to the light side" or "The Emperor was controlling the battle the entire time with his mind" but that's not the shit we see go down on the screen. Vader didn't save Luke because he magically saw the light, he did it because he didn't want to see his son fucking deep fried by an evil wizard, and he broke the script of the Space Wizard war to stop it.
The Prequels, as poorly constructed as they were go balls deep into this if you stop bitching about the overuse of CG for ten seconds. The Jedi are explicitly a bunch of weird, jerk monks working for a crumbling corrupt social orddr. Anakin was never even that great a guy in the first place and his fall was the result of the Jedi being a bunch of fuckups who can't raise children right. Like, the line "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" wasn't Lucas being a big dummy, it was just him being bad at dialogue while trying to get across that the Jedi are kinda bullshit.
Then you have all the material that sprung up around the movies, which took a lot of shit from the films totally at face value building up a cargo cult understanding of it's own franchise, and then projecting itself retroactively onto the movies. Which is the stuff that KOTOR 2 is criticizing, and in the process being more thematically faithful to the original materiel
TL;DR: KOTOR2 isn't wrong, it's the entire rest of the media franchise that's wrong.
Also Kreia isn't supposed to be a best gal who's right about everything nor is she supposed to be just totally evil and everything she says is just bullshit because she's evil. All she's doing as a character is talking about stuff to get the player thinking.
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The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
- Location
- Califat de Chats
No, the themes of KOTOR 2 are what you are in the dark and how you choose to act when everything is at its worst. You can choose to be an omnicidal maniac who kills random people for little to no reason. Or you can listen to and follow Kreia. Or you can completely disregard her and absolutely refuse to bow, and to pick up your lightsaber and get on with things. Save the galaxy, build your own Jedi order in your own way, patch together the republic and absolutely refuse to cede an inch to the ways of the spiteful shitheel who won't stop yammering in your ear. Spoiler alert: the best ending comes from doing the latter.
KOTOR 2 is a direct acknowledgement that Star Wars doesn't work in real life, but that simultaneously, Star Wars is not real life and does not need to follow its rules.
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- Location
- Kiln of the First Flame
I'm probably making a terrible decision here joining a forum to participate in a Star Wars debate, but Kotor 2 is one of my favorite pieces of fiction, so ehh.
Now its been a number of years since I last played both 1 and 2, so I'm going to miss a lot of critical details here and there, but I was under the impression that Kreia's goal at the end of the game wasn't to kill the force. She even states that it is a little hypocritical of her to do so given how dependent she herself is on it. The entire final battle is just another final trial done in a very Sith-like fashion as Kreia wants to sever the force bond between herself and Jedi Jesus because she ultimately accepts that what the exile taught/learned himself was far more important than whatever she could instruct him.
But like I said, its been a while since I played the game (I really need to play the restored content mod). Just saying that you shouldn't take Kreia's "kill the force" at 100% face value. The only bigger contrarian than her is Chris Avellone.
Now its been a number of years since I last played both 1 and 2, so I'm going to miss a lot of critical details here and there, but I was under the impression that Kreia's goal at the end of the game wasn't to kill the force. She even states that it is a little hypocritical of her to do so given how dependent she herself is on it. The entire final battle is just another final trial done in a very Sith-like fashion as Kreia wants to sever the force bond between herself and Jedi Jesus because she ultimately accepts that what the exile taught/learned himself was far more important than whatever she could instruct him.
But like I said, its been a while since I played the game (I really need to play the restored content mod). Just saying that you shouldn't take Kreia's "kill the force" at 100% face value. The only bigger contrarian than her is Chris Avellone.
BrokenAscendent
Unum prae omnibus aliis
- Location
- Auld Lang Syne
People choosing to spend their money reasonably on gacha games are not foolish, bad with money, or crazy.
Hm, okay, I kind of jumped from tangent to tangent, so let me make myself a bit clearer.
Basically, I do like being the person who can tilt things in one direction or another. Maybe I'm a heavy hitter, maybe I just For Want of A Nail things enough for the person I like to be able to take power. I don't want to be the person in power, who ascends to leadership by being just that awesome. I want to make the person I like take power instead.
Or rather, I wouldn't mind taking power for myself, it's just that I don't trust most games with making you feel like you have that level of power rather than just giving you a shiny title. (I mean, most games aren't going to give you a bunch of different options for a complicated Mage's Guild Simulator that only unlock once you complete one optional questline to become the Archmage. So they maybe give you a couple neat job perks and then you don't have any authority at all, and get assigned a bunch of busy work.) Making the person I like take power feels cool, and the game makers can reasonably make dialogue for whatever policies that person being in charge would have, so you can see the impact you've had. Being in charge and then getting told that another settlement needs my help makes me feel annoyed. People can say you're having such an impact, but it's rare that a game will actually make you feel like your actual orders or policies are having an impact. You can have guards say, "Hey, you're the archmage, right? That was some real impressive work you did with *Insert Apocalyptic Scenario Here* ." But you never really see, "Hey, my cousin got into the college with your scholarship program. He seems to be enjoying himself."
(One of the closest I've seen is NWN 2, and a major part of that is less, actual policies, and more occasionally forgoing adding another +1 to your armor instead of improving the roads. But you can see something of an impact! Your guards are significantly more useful if you've been training and equipping them well than if you've just neglected them. It's not great, but off the top of my head, it's the only example I can think of right now where something like that happens without it explicitly being a fundamental part of the game mechanics.)
I'd be much happier making the person I want to win win than I would be actually winning myself if my theoretical leadership just leaves me feeling like a lackey. (Imagine being President and getting told by the Vice President that, "there are some random thugs that need dealing with. Yeah, get out there and do it. What, you want to have other people do it instead? Do you just want to leave those people defenseless, Mister President? Just go and save those people, I'll give you twenty bucks." Compare that to meeting the President, who you put into office, and he says , "Hey, I've got a job and you're the only one I can trust to do it. Go take out these thugs." It involves just as petty a job, but one of them is way less irritating than the other.)
It just seems like it's easier to make playing Kingmaker give the player feeling of power than it is to actually feel like a person whose title grants them more influence than the bodycount they needed to earn that title.
- Location
- Texas, US
Kreia ultimately wants the Exile to make their own decision. Kreia loves the Exile, that is her strongest motivation. The Force is not going away but the fawed teachings of the Jedii and Sith are.
The Exile is now free to forge a new and better way.
Also importamt is how you are given multiple chances to try and finish her off at the end. Even as a Dark Sider, I would never do that. I always tried to talk her down. She is verty proud of you if you do that. Made me feel all warm n fuzzy.
- Location
- Kiln of the First Flame
Am I the only one seeing some rather Nietzschean ideas in kotor 2? From the way the game treats the exile and the way talks about him at the end, it kind of seems like he is some sort of Jedi Ubermensch or something.
Then again, I only discovered Nietzsche a few months back, so I could just be going through a phase where I see Nietzsche in everything and I do mean everything.
- Location
- Texas, US
Well the Force is a problem. It doesnt support Nietzsche's will to power theory at all. It is also different from Arthur Schopenhauer's theory of the Will-to-Life which I think is a better metaphysical doctrine than the will to power. If you havent, be sure to check out Schopenhauer. He was a big influence on Nietzsche and is a great philosopher in his own right.
But anyway, whether they took some ideas from Nietzsche I think it is very possible. Existentialism is all the rage in popular fiction.
Also you might enjoy this video
- Location
- Kiln of the First Flame
I'll have to check that out some other time since it is 2 hours long.
Let me return the favor: Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II
Also thread tax while we are on the subject of kotor, but the Revan twist from the first game wasn't particularly great.
I get the intention but there has to be a better way of doing that than inserting a character who's a mindless contrarian determined to criticize your decisions regardless of what they actually are. It's why Avelone's favored characters feel completely hollow. Ulysses' criticism of the NCR was stilted and generic compared to that offered by, for example, Cass. Kreia's suggestions were outright insane, like when she claimed I should have forced a random dock worker to fight a criminal gang to save his girlfriend. He's a dock worker. It's not his responsibility to fight.
The Victorian
Elven Supremacist
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
People say that Kreia is trying to get the Exile to question his beliefs...I say she's gaslighting him, hoping to corrupt him into embracing her blighted, diseased worldview. It's why she gets so angry when you try to show her mercy at the final confrontation, because it's an ultimate rejection of her philosophy.
I mean, just look at her character design - she looks like a combination of Obi-wan and Palpatine. She's a corrupting influence through and through.
- Location
- Kiln of the First Flame
Your not wrong. Didn't Avelone himself state that he wished to tone Kreia done in hindsight? I like the man's writing, but sometimes... he just doesn't make any sense to me. Like, after writing four dlcs devoted to the idea of "letting go" and stop Idolizing the past, Avelone wants to nuke the fallout world and reset to year zero?
I don't remember that particular side quest with the dockworker off-hand. Was it one of the ones on Telos?
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Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
I'm not sure it's even that forward-thinking, honestly. As a nihilist there are genuinely no good outcomes in her eyes, and her goals are so large that anything about dockworkers or charity is probably something she sees as a waste of her time. At the end of the day the Force and the world are still there, taunting her by their existence. She's angry you took the time on something that isn't her vendetta, and nothing of what she says, either way, is anything more than a justification for that anger. Kreia isn't a chessmaster trying to manipulate you. She can't be because doesn't believe in the pieces having meaning and the very idea of the board exists drives her to murder.
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ZerbanDaGreat
Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S
- Pronouns
- They/them
I think he said that in general he regrets the edgy bashfic feel of KOTOR 2 and wishes he could've done it more subtly. But in fairness he apparently consumed all extant Star Wars media as research prior to writing it, including the Holiday Special and various EU books, so it's no wonder that amount of SAN loss turned him into Darth Nihilus trying to suck the very Force energy from the entire franchise.
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
Tangentially, I actually really like KOTOR2 in one aspect: a lot of the dialogue choices had no impact whatsoever, which is actually a great way for me to really feel like I can roleplay out my character without feeling constrained by worrying about the gameplay consequences. I could have my character change their mind due to the events of the story, and it won't be taken as a sudden betrayal of everything that went before by the other characters.
Halcyon Days
Velothi
- Location
- US
Minor nitpick but the Exile is canon female.
KingseekerFreyr
Currently kingseeking...
- Location
- In a void!
Kreia is better then most Author Avatars because you can go through the entire game just shitting on everything that she believes in and at the end of the game, you can completely and utterly crush her hopes and dreams by destroying her academy on Malachor V. And the game will not punish you for it.
Not that I won't because I actually like Kreia, because at the end of the day, Kreia is trying to solve in-universe problem with the Force and it's constant need for "balance".
Not that I won't because I actually like Kreia, because at the end of the day, Kreia is trying to solve in-universe problem with the Force and it's constant need for "balance".
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
It kind of reminds me of the SWTOR Imperial Agent storyline, where the antagonists are also trying to solve the problem of why these opposing societies of space wizards keep trying to plunge the galaxy into devastating wars over and over again.
They're the antagonists because their solution is to control the galaxy from the shadows instead of letting the space wizards do it, but seeing as the Imperial Agent has been shat upon by both Jedi and Sith alike by this point in time, the player is probably more than a little sympathetic to the question.
- Location
- Washington DC, United States
I think the problem with a lot of RPG dialog systems is that they try to make it into too much of a system.
Dream Logic
An offseason swallow
- Location
- In transit
I've been playing Cultist simulator and seeing the critical reviews...I wonder if we played the same game.
If you are going to give me no instruction and a big alchemy kit to muddy my way through then you can't reasonably expect me to stay on top of the meaningless buzz work.
The Game needs a card sorter and either a record of various results or some other tool to help keep track of what you've tried and what the results were.
Without it, it's just plain horrible.
If you are going to give me no instruction and a big alchemy kit to muddy my way through then you can't reasonably expect me to stay on top of the meaningless buzz work.
The Game needs a card sorter and either a record of various results or some other tool to help keep track of what you've tried and what the results were.
Without it, it's just plain horrible.
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
I actually really like RPGS that impose a bit of backstory on the player because it feels like it gives the character grounding in the world and story stuff to actually interact with. In Divinity Original Sin 2 I just abandoned the idea of creating a custom character because they'd have so much less stuff to interact with in the story and it's interesting doing your own interpretation of an existing character.
This is actually one of my issues with Shadowrun: Hong Kong.
This is actually one of my issues with Shadowrun: Hong Kong.
The games makes a point to mention that your character was in prison for years before the actual story, which is a great hook. I was waiting the entire game for the conversation with Duncan where I talk about some of the fucked up experiences in prison and divulge some juicy character depth, but it just doesn't happen. It feels like a waste.
Doesn't it also give you a couple of options to lie to him about your background, even though you as the player don't even know it yourself?