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Controversial gaming opinion: video games are good.
What are controversial gaming opinions you have?
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While that can be the case I don't think the issue is as pronounced with the kinds of interactables that you normally see get the painted treatment. Things like ladders and breakable boxes are just things you have explore in a given space. For example I have object highlighting off in STALKER 2, and I wouldn't say too much changes in practice because snooping around the corners of grimy rooms is basically the whole appeal of that game, but if a game relies on it a lot for traversal that can maybe be an issue.
Map markers you do have to be a bit more careful with though, yeah. Ghost Recon Breakpoint is a much more interesting and enjoyable game if you switch waypoints off, but that's a fully featured option which gives you clues about the location of objectives so you can plan where you will search and be able to use the map to localise where something is. Not every game can necessarily do this, but it does I think highlight how nav markers can be something of a crutch. You don't necessarily have to go as far as giving each player a protractor like Arma Reforger, but navigation can be more mechanically satisfying than it is. This is just my personal view but I do think that the proliferation of map markers is part of why the open world map has lost a lot of its lustre for people.
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It works really well within the game's aesthetic of course, but the other thing that makes it work is that part of mastery of that game is learning when to ignore the signposts.
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I mean... there's always the "only place torches on the right side of whatever cave you're exploring so that, whenever you want to find the way back, you just follow the left sided torches" option? That's a pathfinding tool, and in fact one of the oldest ones in existence most likely.
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Relatedly, I think that the backlash against realism in games, apart form feeling a little like shadow boxing, often misses that a realistic version of a given thing is usually more mechanically interesting than a more abstracted one. Certainly they can be more complex and so might be undesirable from a design perspective, depending on your development objectives, intended audience, etc, but there's typically more to engage with. Stuff like magazine tracking instead of floating point ammunition values, armour penetration or locational damage instead of health values, being able to steal radios in Arma instead of voice chat being psychic communication, these can add a lot of texture. It's not suitable for every game but I think that there's a lot more space than people realise.
The thing that always stands out to me in this regard is how you don't automatically reload in Helldivers and can dry fire. That is to me the most interesting thing in that entire game lol, and one of those things that reminds me that the developers expected the game to be pretty niche.
The thing that always stands out to me in this regard is how you don't automatically reload in Helldivers and can dry fire. That is to me the most interesting thing in that entire game lol, and one of those things that reminds me that the developers expected the game to be pretty niche.
For caving, you actually have most of the navigation tools I could think of - torches and signs.
However, minecraft also has an outdoors.
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Torches and signs also work there.
Pave a road, or at least clear out a pathway and put signs pointing towards places. It's just that most people (me included) are too lazy to do it lol.
Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
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you use noticeable landmarks like interesting-looking terrain, and build single block towers every once in a while to guide your way back
I mean, you can, sure. Or you can build highways in the air. But I didn't say 'there is no way to find your way in Minecraft'.
Telling me how to navigate without any tools is completely missing the point, thanks.
I have, in fact, quite a bit of familiarity with doing that.
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You did say however "but you pretty much are limited to memory or out-of-game notes as pathfinding tools.". Which implies the nonexistence of such tools.
Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
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If you want to insist that 'build a road' constitutes "pathfinding tools", fine. Have fun with completely ignoring the subject.
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...yes, it is a pathfinding tool. Literally, in fact, and one of the oldest pathfinding methods that humanity ever invented.
What the hell do you think even was the purpose of roads back in history? It wasn't exactly designed for vehicles before there were any vehicles in existence.
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Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
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what are you considering a "pathfinding tool" here?
edit; if you're qualifying torches and signs as "pathfinding tools" in caves, how are similar tools for the surface (roads/trail markers/landmarks) not falling under the same umbrella term?
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Also, lodestones exist, and as of one of the recent snapshots they're going to require just an iron ingot in the middle instead of a netherite one, so. Tools!
Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
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doesn't count, not a "pathfinding tool"
That's a incredibly boring navigational tool, but yes.
I'm not sure how this could escape anybody reading the post, but the point was that I wanted navigation to be an interesting activity. Not that I thought it was impossible to find your way around in Minecraft.
Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
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thank you for actually explaining what you meant
Literally the first words of the post were "I want more games that make navigation interesting"
Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
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Didn't say you explained it well, but still I acknowledge there was an attempt.
You kept going on about things that did or did not count as "pathfinding tools", without any sort of qualifiers about the experience beyond "torches and signs count in caves." Whenever it was pointed out the ways you can navigate on the surface, you just kept looping back to "not a pathfinding/navigation tool" and nothing else.
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I haven't played Monster Hunter but nothing I've seen of it looks remotely like a Soulslike in gameplay. So no, I don't think this makes sense.
Souls being directly inspired by MonHun is not particularly controversial, there's a ton of developer cross pollination and From actually made a tactical spinoff MonHun game!
You should play MonHun, it's kind of the OG Commitment Action + Rolling Around Dodging Stuff game.
Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
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Which is a Phantasy Star Online ripoff if that is the level of inspiration that counts.
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I probably will get around to it, that said if MH's only similarity is that it's action and involves dodging then that sounds like my skepticism was totally justified. That's only a small part of the Soulslike formula, hence why Lies of P can exist with its massive deemphasis on dodge rolling.
PSO is a massive inspiration for both of them for sure!
I'm not sure why you're acting so hostile? Quite a few MonHun bosses could fit perfectly well into Dark Souls as well as the reverse, same with Lies of P (that you can play through basically as a MonHun Lance user, parries and sidesteps and pokes)
cB557
voOOP
Specifically the focus on relatively slow combat with very high commitment to actions for both the player and the enemy, leading to a stronger focus on learning patterns, tells, and how to get safe openings through them feels similar in Dark Souls and Monster Hunter. When I first was getting into Monster Hunter I thought of it as almost being a Dark Souls boss rush game.