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What are controversial gaming opinions you have?

My controversial gaming opinion is that I don't find Velvet Crowe's outfit sexy, just cool :V

(I'm sure quite a few people got their rocks off from it, but it just somehow completely missed me. Probably in part because I'm a sucker for scrappy outfits)

On a different note, I just can't get into Disgaea 2. Not entirely sure why, maybe the whole setup with the primary characters doesn't click for me for some reason.
 
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So to continue the discussion of Fanservice I think a example of "Fanservicy" being detrimental to a thing comes from
Dark Souls II & III, it really relies too much on "callback" (especially III) course some "callbacks" are really good (again see IIIs final boss) but you still need too not rely on your past whilst going forward, it runs the risk of tainting the new ideas you create



Edit: and whilst I'm at it the best Fanservice moment in the soulsbourne series is
Ludvig... Just a the moment his sword falls from his sheath and it's revealed it's literally "The Moonlight Greatsword" from past games is a moment in Bloodborne that sticks in my memory, the entire tone of the fight completely changes in this phase as your no longer fighting a mere beast but a great warrior

I'm also a sucker for synced boss music which this fight always seems to have

(Here's someone's attempt to fight him with the music accidentally synced to Ludvig's attacks, music is usually synced enough but this is pretty cool)

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7n1qe2ZSTPA&pp=ygUTTHVkdmlnIHRoZSBhY2N1cnNlZA%3D%3D
 
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Terrabrand said:
let's check that, shall we?

Two options for 'the first response': either my first response to you in this conversation chain, in which I do not in fact use the word dick at all, or the response to your response, in which I use the common phrase 'dick move', and do not, in fact, literally call anyone in particular a dick at any point.
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Second reply. I apologize.

Rather than actually engaging with my criticisms of specific, actual behavior you have engaged in.

Like. There is one person constantly describing the entirety of the other person's behavior with a pile of 'you're bad, so I can ignore you!' word piles, and refusing to pay any attention to the points. It is you. I have pointed out specific ways you have behaved, and outlined how those are kinda jerk things, if you think about it.
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I acknowledge what you're saying, and I appreciate actually being able to have an actual conversation. Now that you're actually ready to talk, i'm more than happy to do engage.

I understand the points you made. I disagree. I don't think it is wrong to encourage those who want to see more a specific type of media to engage in the creation of that media. That should be a universally wonderful thing, but you might disagree. Could my initially response of "make it" be read as crass? Sure. I'll admit I could have been a bit more eloquent in saying that, but I didn't think it was going to spawn flames. It was just a concise way of saying this. So, i'll admit some fault there, I could have been more wordy and explained what I meant more. I just really didn't think it was a big deal.

So yeah, I hear what your saying. I even agree that some other supportive things could ALSO be said. I don't believe NOT choosing to say those extra things was in any way bad. I made a quick, simple point. You can disagree with that. You are entitled to your opinion. The aggressive response was absolutely uncalled for.

I'm not particularly interested in discussing the other things. I don't know there's much else to say.

I apologize if any offense was taken. It certainly was not intended. I still believe you came in way too hot for absolutely no reason, but given how hot-headed the response was, i'll try to ensure to not just say one supportive thing and try to figure out what else might also be supportive as well.
 
Evilchumlee said:
I understand the points you made. I disagree. I don't think it is wrong to encourage those who want to see more a specific type of media to engage in the creation of that media. That should be a universally wonderful thing, but you might disagree. Could my initially response of "make it" be read as crass? Sure. I'll admit I could have been a bit more eloquent in saying that, but I didn't think it was going to spawn flames. It was just a concise way of saying this. So, i'll admit some fault there, I could have been more wordy and explained what I meant more. I just really didn't think it was a big deal.
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Yes it did come off "dog-whistly" and I'm glad you apologized for that,
anyway I... Think I agree with the "make it" strategy, I don't think things are gonna change until us and talented creatives change it, definitely want society to be allot less prudish for everyone, contrary to the G.O.P Sex and nudity aren't "evil", the sooner we as a society fixes such things the happier people will be.

Edit: I don't mean to come off as "Woa unto us" but Capitalism and "Conservativism" rot and destroy creativity, so I try to find comfort in media and political discussion, I would rather not "throw the baby out with the bath water" so too speak when it comes to Fanservice
 
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Yeah, sure, let's just "make it".
I'm sure we all have a few billion dollars in our back pocket.
The "make it" strategy relegates anything not straight white male aimed into non main stream, making it difficult to actually get it to the intended audience, and very easy to drown out and ignore by the main stream media.

And, as already pointed out, people are "making it", that does not mean we should just shut up about the failures of big publishers or the way media treats women.
Because the problem with characters like Jack andQuiet is not that they show skin.
 
Valmond said:
Yeah, sure, let's just "make it".
I'm sure we all have a few billion dollars in our back pocket.
The "make it" strategy relegates anything not straight white male aimed into non main stream, making it difficult to actually get it to the intended audience, and very easy to drown out and ignore by the main stream media.

And, as already pointed out, people are "making it", that does not mean we should just shut up about the failures of big publishers or the way media treats women.
Because the problem with characters like Jack andQuiet is not that they show skin.
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...Yes... That's really the unfortunate reality, we just gotta try I think until it works (obviously don't bankrupt yourself doing it, that wouldn't be worth it) I mean as a favor think about what a straight woman would like if your comfortable with creating that.

From then on it's unfortunately a coin flip if it becomes a sensation or a bust, there's really no good strategy I can think of right now to fix this double-standard other than just keeping it in mind when your creating something

Edit: the closest thing I can think of as a attractive sensation for women is the "Love interest's" from "The Twilight Saga"
 
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Wateryblue said:
...Yes... That's really the unfortunate reality, we just gotta try I think until it works (obviously don't bankrupt yourself doing it, that wouldn't be worth it) I mean as a favor think about what a straight woman would like if your comfortable with creating that.

From then on it's unfortunately a coin flip if it becomes a sensation or a bust, there's really no good strategy I can think of right now to fix this double-standard other than just keeping it in mind when your creating something

Edit: the closest thing I can think of as a attractive sensation is the "Love interest's" from "The Twilight Saga"
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People are trying it.
Telling people to "make it" instead of criticise media is not only insulting because it implies they are not, but also completely ignores the realities of publishing.
Unless the idea is to try to silence those who dare criticise the way media, especially, but not limited to, video games, i have no idea what is the fucking point of it.
 
Valmond said:
And, as already pointed out, people are "making it", that does not mean we should just shut up about the failures of big publishers or the way media treats women.
Because the problem with characters like Jack andQuiet is not that they show skin.
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And I accidentally skimmed over this part of your post due to my awful internet connection.

Critiques are always welcome so long as they are fair and not directed at anyone, people are of course free to disagree but that comes with the "territory"...that is all... This would've been in my other post but now I've got "egg on my face"
 
Valmond said:
People are trying it.
Telling people to "make it" instead of criticise media is not only insulting because it implies they are not, but also completely ignores the realities of publishing.
Unless the idea is to try to silence those who dare criticise the way media, especially, but not limited to, video games, i have no idea what is the fucking point of it.
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Again sorry for accidentally talking past ya...

Yep publishing is very bizarre and obtuse, you can literally give them "gold" and then they'll just... Do nothing with it or worse they "sit" on the I.P you gave them and do nothing with it (so many I.P fell victim to that stupid practice)
 
Clown Bean said:
I'm actually interested in this study, if you can find it or know where to look? I know that Teen Titans, Young Justice, et al. get cancelled for unclear reasons, and that the prominent theory, or at least a common theory, from fans is that this was because they appealed to female audiences due to things like gender stratification (I forget the exact term) and belief that men and women inherently should like different things, and I think it's probably the most plausible explanation for the trend, but I don't think I've seen something that explicitly laid out the argument with actual proper evidence rather than just suspicions and what logically seems to be true?
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I had to look into this because it's been a while, but apparently Young Justice's cancellation didn't have anything to do with that (Paul Dini, whose words were interpreted as suggesting this, didn't even work on the show). By all accounts YJ seemed to just be doing poorly any way you slice it. But Dini specifically mentioned that executives don't value a female audience, because they don't buy the toys that are made for the show the way boys do.

DINI: "They're all for boys 'we do not want the girls', I mean, I've heard executives say this, you know, not [where I am] but at other places, saying like, 'We do not want girls watching this show."

SMITH: "WHY? That's 51% of the population."

DINI: "They. Do. Not. Buy. Toys. The girls buy different toys. The girls may watch the show—"

SMITH: "So you can sell them T-shirts if they don't—A: I disagree, I think girls buy toys as well, I mean not as many as f***ing boys do, but, B: sell them something else, man! Don't be lazy and be like, 'well I can't sell a girl a toy.' Sell 'em a T-shirt, man, sell them f***ing umbrella with the f***ing character on it, something like that. But if it's not a toy, there's something else you could sell 'em! Like, just because you can't figure out your job, don't kill chances of, like, something that's gonna reach an audi—that's just so self-defeating, when people go, like… these are the same f***ers who go, like, 'Oh, girls don't read comics, girls aren't into comics.' It's all self-fulfilling prophecies. They just make it that way, by going like, 'I can't sell 'em a toy, what's the point?'

DINI: "That's the thing, you know I hate being Mr. Sour Grapes here, but I'll just lay it on the line: that's the thing that got us cancelled on Tower Prep, honest-to-God was, like, 'we need boys, but we need girls right there, right one step behind the boys'—this is the network talking—'one step behind the boys, not as smart as the boys, not as interesting as the boys, but right there.' And then we began writing stories that got into the two girls' back stories, and they were really interesting. And suddenly we had families and girls watching, and girls really became a big part of our audience, in sort of like they picked up that Harry Potter type of serialized way, which is what The Batman and [indistinct]'s really gonna kill. But, the Cartoon Network was saying, 'F***, no, we want the boys' action, it's boys' action, this goofy boy humor we've gotta get that in there. And we can't—'and I'd say, but look at the numbers, we've got parents watching, with the families, and then when you break it down—'Yeah, but the—so many—we've got too many girls. We need more boys.'"

SMITH: "That's heart-breaking."

DINI: "And then that's why they cancelled us, and they put on a show called Level Up, which is, you know, goofy nerds fighting CG monsters. It's like, 'We don't want the girls because the girls won't buy toys.' We had a whole… we had a whole, a merchandise line for Tower Prep that they s***canned before it ever got off the launching pad, because it's like, 'Boys, boys, boys. Boys buy the little spinny tops, they but the action figures, girls buy princesses, we're not selling princesses.'"
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After Dini's comments, the argument I did see about the motivation for gender stratification is that the more you can break up your audiences into highly specific demographics, the more optimally and efficiently you can monetize them. Because you don't have to worry about maintaining the appeal to multiple demographics at once, you can go full steam ahead on one strategy (one that will presumably result in a more "potent" product than if you hedged between multiple different appeals).

I'm not sure where I'd look to for actual evidence of this approach in action beyond what Dini said (I have no particular reason to doubt him). But it makes intuitive sense as a motivation, and I think what people miss when they say that something was discontinued even though it was popular/profitable is that companies view these things not just in terms of profit but in terms of opportunity cost. Even if something is bringing in profit, if they think its resources could be used elsewhere to make more profit, they'll see this as effectively losing money.
 
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I'll believe fan service equality is a thing when i start seeing gogo-boy, leather daddy, and kink outfits for masculine characters and no I am not joking. I want expressions of masculine sexuality that are foreign to, if not outright hostile to, the sensibilities of straight men.
 
Zablorg said:
I had to look into this because it's been a while, but apparently Young Justice's cancellation didn't have anything to do with that (Paul Dini, whose words were interpreted as suggesting this, didn't even work on the show). By all accounts YJ seemed to just be doing poorly any way you slice it. But Dini specifically mentioned that executives don't value a female audience, because they don't buy the toys that are made for the show the way boys do.
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Yeah, makes sense, thanks for the heads-up. The problem is that obviously the execs are typically going to make sure nobody involved actually says that, so unless somebody involved in the project both knows that this is the case, likely to be really rare, and is willing to come out with it and likely sink any future attempts to work with Cartoon Network or whoever, it's hard to know for sure. But appreciate the links and the Dini quote, that's useful.
 
Clown Bean said:
Yeah, makes sense, thanks for the heads-up. The problem is that obviously the execs are typically going to make sure nobody involved actually says that, so unless somebody involved in the project both knows that this is the case, likely to be really rare, and is willing to come out with it and likely sink any future attempts to work with Cartoon Network or whoever, it's hard to know for sure. But appreciate the links and the Dini quote, that's useful.
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I do wonder how many toys were of girl characters, though. I know that's been an issue in some cases, that they have lots toys of the boys and almost none of equally prominent girls on the show, and then blame not buying toys on gender differences rather than only one audience being catered to.
 
ApocalypticFish said:
My controversial gaming opinion is that I don't find Velvet Crowe's outfit sexy, just cool :V

(I'm sure quite a few people got their rocks off from it, but it just somehow completely missed me. Probably in part because I'm a sucker for scrappy outfits)
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The cool part deffo is, I think. Her default outfit has pretty strong skank stripper vibes, more than anything. I don't really find it to be sexy, either, though. Like, the boob window and the spraypaint shorts are there, but it looks like she failed a scavenging roll in a thrift shop more than anything, and it just... doesn't appeal. I've seen folks rock that kind of look pretty hard, but Velvet don't. Ain't cool, either, just. Awkward? Something like that.

... it's honestly the major reason I keep just not playing Berseria. Initial reaction to the character design was a resounding meh, more or less, despite hearing decent things about it otherwise. Picked up it and Zestria in some kind of bundle a couple years back and I've played them all of 7 minutes since.

S'occasionally bugged me a bit, too, I've been wanting to try a non-handheld Tales game that's more recent than the PSX for a while now, but I keep installing the two, then just kind of looking at them and never actually pressing play...
 
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Frumple said:
Her default outfit has pretty strong skank stripper vibes, more than anything. I don't really find it to be sexy, either, though. Like, the boob window and the spraypaint shorts are there, but it looks like she failed a scavenging roll in a thrift shop more than anything, and it just... doesn't appeal.
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So I got curious, and looked it up.

I think my impression is basically "okay, this is her so called 'battle damage' sprite, where's her original one? Wait, you mean this is it?"

-Morgan.
 
Great Greedy Guts said:
I do wonder how many toys were of girl characters, though. I know that's been an issue in some cases, that they have lots toys of the boys and almost none of equally prominent girls on the show, and then blame not buying toys on gender differences rather than only one audience being catered to.
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You are obviously correct about cool toys of female characters, but the "show was cancelled because of low toy sales" is not about the toys of the show that was cancelled
I cannot link the source because it was on twitter several years ago, but according to Kelly Turnbull, the toysale calculations are about the toys advertised in the ad breaks around the show in question, this leading to shows that do not have toys being cancelled for low sales as well. They are using weird statistics and projections no one normal understands.
 
There's an element of the discussion about fanservice and gendered double standards that strikes me as a little defensive. I don't think that the discrepancy between the ideal of gender having an equal playing field and the reality of gendered depictions of fanservice is a particularly difficult concept to grasp, nor do I think the former is not an ideal to strive for. I guess it's just that when I see people argue that common instances of male fanservice are the same as female fanservice, I register a sense of defensiveness. Like, I think there's a degree to which people who make that argument are attempting to articulate their resentment in a way palatable (or at least perceived to be palatable) to their target audience, the target audience in this case being the community on SV.

Here's the thing: I like girls, I like fanservice, and I recognize that there are gendered issues surrounding that intersection. I'm pretty open about this. I hold a somewhat cozy position of "fanservice is fine, I don't want it to go anywhere, but we need increased awareness and media literacy of how it interacts with real-world gender inequality". And I'm sympathetic to the idea that people can get defensive or resentful at perceived attacks on the things they enjoy. I don't agree with it, but I understand why people might think their preferences are coming under attack by a fandom that seems to be increasingly hostile towards female fanservice. I don't think making a stand on that preference necessitates obfuscating it under the omission of real-world gender issues, though. Like, @DestinyPlayer just outright said they like fanservice, and so did I. It's fine to like fanservice, really. Just exercise media literacy, accept that people are coming at this from different perspectives, and understand that not everyone is going to agree with your subjective preferences.
 
Squirtodyle said:
I've watched Hellsing, Alucard does not. He, on occasion, evokes the ideas of vampiric seduction through mind control, but that's it. It's not the same thing as being actually seductive and desirable.
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SAD!! You make Alucard sad😢.

:V

(In all seriousness I respectfully disagree with you on that, I consider myself Straight but even I feel like I have a "guycruch" so to speak on that Vampire, many others seem to find Alucard as extremely attractive both genders in fact)
 
Wateryblue said:
SAD!! You make Alucard sad😢.

:V

(In all seriousness I respectfully disagree with you on that, I consider myself Straight but even I feel like I have a "guycruch" so to speak on that Vampire, many others seem to find Alucard as extremely attractive both genders in fact)
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I mean, yeah, I also think Alucard is extremely hot!

The thing is, there's a difference between "a character being attractive" and "a character being used for fanservice". One is a general thing, the other is active intent and ideally thought going into it. Alucard is extremely attractive, but the core part of Alucard is that he's a power fantasy. He's the strongest thing in the series and knows it, and even the hypergigabrain plan to kill him only put him out of commission for 30 years and then made him even stronger when he came back. Alucard is attractive, but that attractiveness is something that underlies that fantasy. Wouldn't it be cool to be as strong as Alucard? Wouldn't it be even cooler if you were as strong as Alucard and also super hot?

You don't watch Hellsing because Alucard is being put in situations designed to titillate people attracted to men, you watch Hellsing because it's fun to watch an overpowered abomination of a vampire fight vampire Nazis.

Alucard carries a vibe of vampiric seduction because he is a vampire, but it's not really a focal point of anything, and even then there's an underlying current of predation because vampiric seduction always has that. It's part of what makes him powerful - and that's not to say that someone powerful can't be fanservicey, there's plenty of ways to do fanservice of men that involves them being powerful or in control or domineering or whatever, but Alucard isn't it. He is a hot guy, but that's all.
 
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Wateryblue said:
SAD!! You make Alucard sad😢.

:V

(In all seriousness I respectfully disagree with you on that, I consider myself Straight but even I feel like I have a "guycruch" so to speak on that Vampire, many others seem to find Alucard as extremely attractive both genders in fact)
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personally when i say fanservice character i mean the kind of shit you don't want your parents walking in on. If someone sees bayonetta poledancing that's a whole other story from alucard just being a guy. fanservice isn't "character i've formed an emotional connection to and developed feelings for" its "no mom its not that kind of game " i want there to be no ambiguity. if mortal kombat gets feminine stripper ninjas then by god i want raiden in a thong. give me cut outs. where are the crop tops. leather harnesses. those shirts where it's only sleeves and shoulders and nothing else. men likers are starving out here. we gotta make our own damn food its crazy.
 
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