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Type Moon General

Squirtodyle said:
"They turned king arthur into a woman and made porn of her" is not remotely the same as "they took an existing character with dark skin and gave him an alt where for no conceivable reason they made him white".

This isn't even how Fate usually whitewashes—Ozy was one of the few actually dark skinned characters in the series, and they decided to create an alternate colour scheme for him that for absolutely no reason made him white. That's pretty fucked!
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They did it because people like to play around with character color palettes when they get bored of the same old, now and then. They did it because (at least historically) their primary audience, Japanese gamers, haven't tended to read more into palette swap DLC than "oh neat, a new look option for my favorites!" He still is a dark skinned character. That hasn't changed. The default is still the default and will remain the default.

I don't think that's fucked at all honestly, but I doubt either of us will change our minds
 
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Landb said:
They did it because people like to play around with character color palettes when they get bored of the same old, now and then. They did it because (at least historically) their primary audience, Japanese gamers, haven't tended to read more into palette swap DLC than "oh neat, a new look option for my favorites!"
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Okay, and even if all of this was true...

Whitewashing is still bad? It doesn't matter if they didn't think too much about it, because it's still bad?

Like, can you at least agree on that premise, that whitewashing is actually a bad thing and maybe from there come to understand that people actually have a legitimate grievance with it when they complain, and they're not just being dumb?
 
Squirtodyle said:
Okay, and even if all of this was true...

Whitewashing is still bad? It doesn't matter if they didn't think too much about it, because it's still bad?

Like, can you at least agree on that premise, that whitewashing is actually a bad thing and maybe from there come to understand that people actually have a legitimate grievance with it when they complain, and they're not just being dumb?
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They haven't whitewashed him. Ozy is still dark skinned. Jeanne is still white and blonde. The character has not been changed by the existence of an entirely optional alternate skin. Call me when Ozy Blanc starts being the version that shows up most often in story content.
 
Alts can just be alternate costumes, why did it need to change the skin color of characters?

Also this conversation would be a lot more pleasant if you took it down a notch and not call the people criticizing "deranged" or "pearl clutching". It's pointless escalation.
 
all fictions said:
Alts can just be alternate costumes, why did it need to change the skin color of characters?

Also this conversation would be a lot more pleasant if you took it down a notch and not call the people criticizing "deranged" or "pearl clutching". It's pointless escalation.
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Yeah, like I think this is a nothingburger (it's just some skin for a game a total of 8 people play, they didn't retroactively change Ozy or smt) but the tone is a little too confrontational.
 
Rule 2: Don’t Be Hateful - When discussing the quite sensitive subjects of race and whitewashing characters in fiction, this tack is not desirable
all fictions said:
Alts can just be alternate costumes, why did it need to change the skin color of characters?

Also this conversation would be a lot more pleasant if you took it down a notch and not call the people criticizing "deranged" or "pearl clutching". It's pointless escalation.
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That's fair. Honestly I think I'm just so exhausted by arguments over the skin color of fictional characters (rather than literally anything else about them) that I go in hackles raised at this point. It wasn't helped by this one seeming especially mountains-from-molehills thanks to it being DLC alts in an Arcade spinoff rather than changes to the actual default (or only) version of the character.

While I stand by the thrust of what I've said, I could've been more polite.
 
TBF within an east Asian context the issue is probably less about racelifting people but perpetuating the colorism-weird Korean beauty product cosmetic industrial complex where girls are made to feel bad if they spend more than 5 second recieving UV radiation and must put the snail slime on their skin or else they get the hose again.
 
From as far as I know, from the past, to have a lighter tone of skin than others is a wealth sign in asian countries. Even before white imperialism.

So, to say it's whitewashing is a little bit too early, except if people want to dismiss others cultures.
 
Suppose I were to make the history of the Nasuverse as it were until 2011 - except, the world is Earth Bet. How would I start doing that?
 
CorEagle said:
Suppose I were to make the history of the Nasuverse as it were until 2011 - except, the world is Earth Bet. How would I start doing that?
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At a baseline level, you wouldn't. Aliens coming to destroy the planet tend to get blasted to bits by Excalibur.

If you wanted to ignore that, then you'd have to reconcile the fact that magi are probably vastly more knowledgeable about shards and powers and whatnot than anyone in Worm canon is, and the fact that major disasters and threats in Fate timelines tend to be responded to by applications of the Counter Force and Counter Guardians.
 
Squirtodyle said:
If you wanted to ignore that, then you'd have to reconcile the fact that magi are probably vastly more knowledgeable about shards and powers and whatnot than anyone in Worm canon is, and the fact that major disasters and threats in Fate timelines tend to be responded to by applications of the Counter Force and Counter Guardians.
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Oh, I don't mean the magi society. I meant the anime, visual novels, game series from Nasu.
 
I kinda had a similar problem when thinking about how to incorporate the Land of Oz for my Glinda and Ozma Servant sheets, and I figured Reverse Side wouldn't work since most of the travel to Oz is done by air (though someone suggested making the twister a space-time warp).
So what I decided to do was Elder Scrolls it, i.e., not give a definitive explanation, but establish several in-universe theories that people think could explain it, like some say it's a Marble Phantasm, a variant Reality Marble, and expanded 'entrance' to the Reverse Side, or a cut-off dimension like the Wandering Sea
 
CorEagle said:
Oh, I don't mean the magi society. I meant the anime, visual novels, game series from Nasu.
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Uh. If you just wanted to introduce it as fiction, well, people will just treat it as such? If you're introducing magic alongside the Fate media, people shall definitely notice, but be discovering stuff from scratch unless you're bringing the Nasu societies and such of magus along as part of the world's history.

Others have already mentioned why it breaks Worm's plot, though.
 
Squirtodyle said:
Like...in universe fiction?
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Yep. Here's what I've got fo far. I'm trying to essentially make a "history" of the show which is showed through PHO interludes for BCF. (Source: LordRoustabout)

Avalon: Web of Magic as a replacement for the Nasuverse (which would not exist on Earth Bet due to the collapse of Japan). The rough idea was that the series Princess Gwenevere and the Jewel Riders was much bigger on Earth Bet, leading to its sequel series Avalon: Web of Magic becoming a long-running animated series rather than a series of young adult novels. The project was handed to Kinoko Nasu who basically turned it into Fate with the serial numbers filed off. The production team included a lot of Japanese animators who had immigrated to America. They were throwing everything they had at the project to try to make a name for themselves, leading to a high quality and massively popular series.

the suggested details fall in line with what had already been established in the story, and that they be reasonable for the work in question. The series would have run on cable on Saturday nights, so would have been less restricted than a lot of other children's shows. It would have been known for pushing the boundaries of Standards and Practices on occasions, but everything would still have needed to be fit for US broadcast.

The broad summary of the details of the show, as established so far in the story and WoG posts:
The series followed from Princess Gwenevere and the Jewel Riders with Kinoko Nasu making several massive retcons:
-All the magic jewels in the original series (including the Sun Stone, the Heart Stone, and the Moon Stone) trace their origin to Kischur Zelretch.
-Princess Gwenevere was revealed to be a True Ancestor (His way of backdooring in a version of Arcueid Brunestud)
-Tamara was actually a homunculus
-Fallon (Aisha's favorite character) was killed by an Irish Lancer and later became a counter-guradian before being summoned as a servant
The characters from Web of Magic (Emily Fletcher, Adriane Charday, and Kara Davies) were used as stand-ins for Fate characters Nasu had already planned out (Rin Tohsaka, Sakura Matou, Illyasviel von Einzbern).
Shirou Emiya's character still existed relatively intact in personality and abilities, but with the name changed to Shawn Emiya (Causing Nasu to die a little inside). You also had an Archer equivalent.
Artoria was included with largely the same abilities, origin, and characterization.
Gilgamesh was also present as an antagonist in the series.
The Grail war existed as a major plot in the series, though Masters were referred to as Summoners and Servants were called Heroic Spirits.
Servants still had skills and abilities with letter ranks.
At least one film for Web of Magic: Apocrypha was released.
Web of Magic: Extra existed as a gacha mobile game with different plots (conflicting) depending on the region it was released in.
 
Doing some possible FGO fic musing, and was just wondering if we ever got clarification on some things.

It's said that the Servants that the MC uses in battle aren't usually the actual Servants, but rather, a summoning of their "essence" in a sort of battle-only manifestation (which is somewhat implied to possibly weaken them?) and as such, when they die, the essence just scatters and returns to the actual Servant who remains in Chaldea. Exceptions to this are Mash (obviously), Servants encountered in the Singularity/Lostbelt, and the other miscellaneous reasons (Lostbelt spoilers: Karna, Rama, and Nezha being summoned in full in the India Lostbelt, and Avicebron being summoned in Russia for example).

I sort of assume it's probably some sort of "just so the Servant doesn't get lost in full" deal or some such, but I don't think we're ever told what the reason is?

In any case, when a Servant dies then (the actual Servant, not the essence) such as Da Vinci, Holmes, or any of the Servants that die in a Lostbelt such as Spartacus, Avicebron, etc, is there a reason why Chaldea doesn't use the Spirit Origin backups to just re-summon them? The actual Spirit Origin itself breaks, I would think, and disappears with the Servant, but the whole backup briefcase thing has all of that data right? Like the point of the briefcase was for re-summonings after Chaldea was put on ice at the start of Part Two, right?
 
WildCardFool said:
In any case, when a Servant dies then (the actual Servant, not the essence) such as Da Vinci, Holmes, or any of the Servants that die in a Lostbelt such as Spartacus, Avicebron, etc, is there a reason why Chaldea doesn't use the Spirit Origin backups to just re-summon them?
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Given half of those are field summons rather than random CF ones, my understanding is that they implicitly do offscreen for events and the like; IIRC there's just a general policy that Servants that die in the main plot probably won't be used more for the main plot.
As to the other two options, they're not actually Servants tied to Chaldea; Vinci technically is using doll shennanigans, while Holmes is of course an Apostle(and precisely nobody believes he's actually dead.
 
After learning from where Lancelot originated from I've come to two questions which i implore somebody here to answer.

Firstly has anyone in any Type-Moon work referred to Lancelot as the knight of the cart?

Also anybody done a RIder!Lancelot where he gets the titular cart?
 
You're going to have to elaborate further on Lancelot 's appearance in Mario Kart, I'm unaware of it.
 
Grue said:
You're going to have to elaborate further on Lancelot 's appearance in Mario Kart, I'm unaware of it.
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Lancelot comes from the novel "Lancelot, le Chevalier de la Charrette" or in english "Lancelot, the Knight of the Cart" in which he rides in the back of a cart, a punishment usally reserved for criminals but he has taken upon himself due to how much of a simp he is.

It's actually somewhat of a running joke in the novel where people keep bringing it up to Lancelot.
 
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Mahoyo preorders for the limited edition are now available on Amazon (currently seem to be US only?), and the trial version of it is available on the Playstation store and Nintendo estore. It's a grab bag of scenes from the early chapters intended to give the general feeling of Mahoyo, fairly short in length.
 
What does it mean when a character is said to be omnipotent and higher-dimensional? Goetia was referred that way but he needed a massive energy source to go back to the Genesis so he clearly couldn't do everything so as it to be omnipotent in the truest sense of the word.
Kiara in Tsuki Re is also stated to be omnipotent in this dimension with higher-dimensional awareness but it's also stated she is still bound by matter and this universe (which I assume is the human universe of awareness?), and I assume the same thing held true for Goetia.
But it's still kinda weird for them to be called omnipotent. Does it have to do with the law of equivalent exchange? You basically need a massive source of energy to actually enact things because otherwise the world or universe itself denies it?
 
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