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Xoroth said:
I thought the Mordred as the rebellious son was pretty tied to the versions containing Lancelot? Though considering how many versions there are I'm sure someone made one like that without Lancelot.
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Mordred the traitor first appears, as far as we know, in the Historia Regum Britanniae (though the character and his death at Camlann is significantly older). The earliest appearance of Lancelot is in Erec and Enide, written about 35 years later.
 
I mean, saying Lancelot is the French shitty self-insert OC OP fanfiction is not wrong....

Its part of why reading Old Arthurian tales got really boring, Just expect Lancelot to win everything always.
 
Ford Prefect said:
What's that saying? You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a Gilgamesh apologist.*

I've not been shy about my position that the longer Fate wears on the worse the additional material is. The franchise today is extraordinarily clarified compared to how it was back in the early 2000s, and that clarification hasn't really made it any better. All the new metaphysics don't really add anything, and most importantly the more time we spend with certain characters, the harder it is to like the direction being taken. I like Gilgamesh as a character, because he's a highly effective villain in the arcs in which he is the villain - he works well as a foil to both Saber and Shiro, and his megalomania matched with his overwhelming strength makes him entertaining to watch. And his defeats are very satisfying as a result. I don't really like Gilgamesh the interstellar king of gold who rules over the infinite potential of the human race.

There are other characters like this as well, though the reason why it's bad differs. I don't like the increased clarity surrounding Camelot, because that clarity stemmed from parts of the Arthur myth I don't particularly like, and see as basically medieval French fanfiction.

In saying all that, the longevity and financial success of the franchise has also produced stuff I like, so you win some you lose some :V

*Then again, CHAOTIC GOOD lol
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I personally feel like gil having everything humans ever made via the power of retcons in his vault takes away from the accomplishments of humans buts that just me, also the fact noone can agree whether gil has intangible NPs or him having things like gram or things from other mythologies

also cause it makes gil vs fights completely cencerous.
 
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Fate/Zero's first volume came out in December of 2006. Realta Nua was intended for a 2006 release but was delayed until 2007. The OST art was probably based on the design work that Takeuchi was doing for Urobuchi at the time.
 
Zap Rowsdower said:
I'm still pissed that he has the youth potion.

Like, him failing to get the youth potion and in the process learning humility and responsibility is the entire point of the ending of his Epic. Him not getting it being canonical is even acknowledged in Fate/Zero with the Catalyst for his summoning being the First Snakeskin from the snake that stole it from him!
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Gilgamesh is the godamn rpg player who collects a lot of shit but never use it

Of course he would go back and try to get it again

 
Ford Prefect said:
Mordred the traitor first appears, as far as we know, in the Historia Regum Britanniae (though the character and his death at Camlann is significantly older). The earliest appearance of Lancelot is in Erec and Enide, written about 35 years later.
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But wasn't he not Arthur's son in that version? I remember reading somewhere that the earliest versions of Mordred have him be just another knight of the round table or Arthur's nephew.
 
all fictions said:
No, it pretty much is. Basing this on a single work of Chrétien (which he didn't even complete possibly out of disinterest) when he wouldn't give Lancelot the time of day in his other works is just bad.
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I'm not basing it on a single work. I'm basing it on a trend in Arthurian work in general. Lancelot is always successful in his quests, (likely due to just being the protagonist maybe), but he barely has trouble till him loving the King's wife is revealed.
 
BrokenAscendent said:
I'm not basing it on a single work. I'm basing it on a trend in Arthurian work in general. Lancelot is always successful in his quests, (likely due to just being the protagonist maybe), but he barely has trouble till him loving the King's wife is revealed.
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How can the dude who repeatedly fail the Grail Quest always be successful in his quests?
 
all fictions said:
How can the dude who repeatedly fail the Grail Quest always be successful in his quests?
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The only reason Lancelot can't get the grail is because his son gets to find it because its destiny.

Other than that, where has Lancelot ever really faltered? Even the issue with Guinevere generally ends with them either living their lives out in monasteries or together.
 
I'm not super familiar with Arthurian myths because they're booooooring but Lancelot in the Arthurian Myths and Lancelot in Fate are two different beasts. Arthurian myth Lancelot is just kinda yanked across the moral spectrum by the writer and who/whatever they're being paid to write for, maybe.
And then Fate Lancelot is yanked around, not for any moral statement but because Gen Urobuchi really likes guns and he really doesn't seem to like Arturia. Unless Urobuchi views disliking Arturia as a moral principle.
 
BrokenAscendent said:
The only reason Lancelot can't get the grail is because his son gets to find it because its destiny.
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Nope, it's because his sinful relationship with the queen prevents him from ever seeing or reaching it.
BrokenAscendent said:
Other than that, where has Lancelot ever really faltered?
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In Cligés (one of those Chrétien's stories), Lancelot is listed as one of the knights the titular Cligés and story's hero must defeat at a tournament, which he does.
BrokenAscendent said:
or together.
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Literally never saw that.
 
all fictions said:
Nope, it's because his sinful relationship with the queen prevents him from ever seeing or reaching it.

In Cligés (one of those Chrétien's stories), Lancelot is listed as one of the knights the titular Cligés and story's hero must defeat at a tournament, which he does.

Literally never saw that.
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Hmm. I don't remember reading about him ever trying for the grail, so I'll believe that.
As for the Cliges, This is a case where Lancelot isn't the hero, so of course he loses, thats just generally how these tales go.

Honestly, if I learned anything from reading arthurian literature, its that I can't believe people payed for entertainment at that level.
 
I thought the Arthur-cucking Mary Sue Lancelot stories are different set from the Lancelot-bashing Purity Sue Galahad stories.
 
Seihai-kun said:
I thought the Arthur-cucking Mary Sue Lancelot stories are different set from the Lancelot-bashing Purity Sue Galahad stories.
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It has been a while, they kinda blend together eventually.

Like all that bad nasu fanfiction I read all those years ago.

I still think Dame Ragnell was one of the nicer stories.
Doubt shes famous enough to be a servant though.
 
Xoroth said:
But wasn't he not Arthur's son in that version? I remember reading somewhere that the earliest versions of Mordred have him be just another knight of the round table or Arthur's nephew.
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He was Arthur's nephew in the Historia, but there's an earlier mention in which proto-Mordred's relationship with Arthur was unclear save that both of them fell in the Battle of Camlann.

If I'm remembering right, Mordred's Arthur's nephew rather than Arthur's nephew/son in the Welsh stories, but he might have had an antecedent in the form of Amhar, one of Arthur's sons who had been killed by him for reasons that haven't been passed down to us.
 
What annoys me with the use of "sue" for Lancelot (and Galahad for that matter) is that not only is it inaccurate as only one work in the entire canon portrays Lancelot as perfect with no flaws (including the adultery), but also that people call him sue simply because he is most recent and remembered, when other knights qualify just as much since him being a sue seems predicated upon the fact that he is called the Round Table and the world's best knight, yet nobody seems to remember that this title was passed around a lot depending on the Arthurian work.

The title of "best knight" of King Arthur (and the world) was always fluctuating before even the creation of Lancelot. It was used interchangeably between either of the earliest knights, Kai or Bedwyr/Bedivere, in Welsh poems. Then it was given to Gawain in later literature, followed by Peredur/Percival, then Lancelot, and only then Galahad.

Yet nobody calls them Mary Sues aside from Galahad. Talk about consistency.
Seihai-kun said:
I thought the Arthur-cucking Mary Sue Lancelot stories are different set from the Lancelot-bashing Purity Sue Galahad stories.
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Arthur-cucking Lancelot and Lancelot-bashing went hand in hand in all the works following the Knight of the Cart, regardless of Galahad, so both elements are inseparable. Then you have the works with no cuckoldry at all like Lanzelet, which is early enough to lead to speculations that both it and Knight of the Cart took inspiration from an earlier unknown source the character of Lancelot came from.
 
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Don't know if this has been posted yet, but some info from BL on recent interludes.

GensouR-1 said:
So according to Drake's interlude,Pioneer of the Stars is less about overcoming the impossible and more about solving problems that is preventing human civilization and technology from progressing to the next stage,to get the skill you have to solve the problem using existing resources and technology(one's level of mystery is irrevelant) and then the consenquences of solving it has to spread to other human beings for it to become common sense to elevate humanity to the next level.
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And from Brynhildr's

GensouR-1:
Also someone on the JP side of twitter said that Bryn's new interlude mentioned that western paganism(Norse,Celt,etc) disappeared/died off in 1000 BC,Ophelia's Lostbelt diverged from the Pan-Human History at the same date,so Getterdamerung is most likely a Lostbelt where they didn't die and survived instead.

Lobo: The interlude is name "Dear my little sister", remember that mention in Bryn's profile of Altera been her elder sister? Well, its brought back and the Santa version considers herself that at least
-When Da Vinci is infodumping (hologram Da Vinci in the snowy background part) she mentions the 1000 ac and the texture but also: Ragnarok, Muspelheim and Katla (volcano) (even its eruptions documented since 930)
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Presumably they mean the prototypes for the Nordic/Celtic gods? Also, there was some talk about the Western European Mythology Texture.
 
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