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Type Moon General

And Hercules would actually be best summoned as an Archer. Berserker is kind of his worst class to be summoned as, truth be told. He could have stood a decent chance against Gilgamesh if he was summoned as literally any other class.
 
I still don't understand why people keep on hating Fate!Shirou. Like, most of them keep on thinking "This Shirou is so damn whiny, pathetic, and sexist." Does everyone only watch DEEN F/SN or something? Because I'm pretty sure there are reasoning for all of those in the VN, and he developed into the most sane Emiya Shirou (debatable, admittedly, but I don't count HF!Shirou as Emiya Shirou as he threw away his old ideals).

For the latter, I'm pretty sure that that's just his hypocritical decision, the story even pointed out to it. Not to mention there's the whole Japanese 'women should be feminine thing', meaning they should act like normal women acts at the very least and strive to be a yamato nadeshiko, until they get married after which they get to reign the household (no, really, pretty much all monetary matters are held by the wife).

As for the former two... this Shirou is the least power-level-tastic among all the Shirou, and he's also the one that is most well-adjusted among all the other Shirou. Also, there's this one awesome scene in VN where he dealt with his survivor guilt. The only one to have done so.


"Ah—haa, haa, haa, ah—"
All I can hear is my own breathing now.
I might have a fever that could burn someone to ashes, as it feels like my brain is already melting and pouring out of my ears.

'stop stop stop stop'

"Ha—haa, ah, haa, ha, ah—"
Something's wrong. I don't have a brain anymore, but my body still keeps telling me about the pain and my head accepts it.

'Help help help help'

"Ah—, haa, ah, haa, ha, ha—"
My head isn't the only thing that's empty.
I don't know where my heart or stomach are either.
The nausea is unbearable. There's nothing left to throw up, but the nausea increases without limit.
I endure the infinite repetition with gritted teeth.
…I can stay conscious. It's my pain, so only I have to endure it. There's no problem there.

'Give it back give it back give it back give it back'

"Ha—ah, ah, haa, ha, ah—"
So, the problem is the voices.
My head is empty and I can only hear my breathing, but these voices still echo in my head.
I don't even need to think whose voices they are.

'It hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts'

"Ha—aah, haa, ah, ah—"
I'm going mad.
Every time I hear their voices, I'm stabbed in the chest.
It's not scary.
I just don't have any way to atone to them.

'hey hey hey hey'

"Aah—ah, haa, haa, ah—"
No matter how much they beg for help and no matter how much I want to help them, I can't help them.
I won't ask them to stop calling to me.
It's just that no matter how much they call, I can't help them.
—That's why…
I think I'll go crazy if this continues.

'Return it return it return it return it'

"—haa, ah, ah, guh—!"
No matter how much they ask, I cannot assent.
All I can do is to end it for them.
I can only fix the contradiction of the living dead.
I can only make the creator of this hell atone for his sins.
I…
…Can't take back any sad events or miserable deaths.

—That's my limit.
A superhero only exists to straighten out what has already happened.
…Who was it that said that?
Since I denied those words, I am being cornered right now.

To be honest, I want to run away.
I have no way to save them.
I can only listen to them. I have no miracle to grant them.
I don't have enough power to deny his claim that a superhero is only so strong.
…Then, if…
If I had a miracle that could save them, would I use it—?
[...]



"You—!"
"Do not worry. I only wish to hear his answer.
The Holy Grail only answers those who wish for it. It must interest you whether your Master is appropriate for the Holy Grail or not."

"—That is useless. Shirou does not seek the Holy Grail.
My Master is not as lowly as you."

"Yes, he said so at the start.
—But that will not be his true opinion. As every man has his darkness, this man also has a dark side.
For instance, did this boy truly curse nothing on that day ten years ago? Is he not shaking it off by forgetting what lay ahead?"

—.
Hold on.
What's he saying?
The fire ten years ago has nothing to do with this.
This is meaningless.
Nothing should come out of it.



My back arches.
My mind reverses like electricity is running through it.
—In place of my fading mind, a red vision appears.

Stop.
Stop.
Stop.
Stop. Stop. Stop.
Stop, stop, stop, stop, stopstopstopstopstopstopstopstop…!!!!
There's no meaning in this.
No one will be saved if I remember this now—!





I walked alone.
I sought help and I wanted someone to save me, so I kept walking, not looking to the side.
Stop.
All the while.
How could I think that no one was asking for help from me, when I could still move?
Stop.

'help help help help'

Yeah, I noticed.
There's no way I couldn't have noticed…!
I walked though it all.

I ignored the voices sobbing in pain.
I ignored the voices going mad trying to escape.
I ignored the screams of those not wanting to die.
I ignored the pleas of mothers wanting me to take their children.

I even ignored the dying eyes that could not ask for help.
I kept walking, only seeking help for myself—!

'wait wait wait wait'

I was tired of looking at corpses.
I was already tired of seeing people die in pain.
I thought I couldn't save them.
I thought they would die no matter what I did.
That's why I never stopped.
—Stop.

'Give it back give it back give it back give it back'

I thought I had to live even a second longer because I had to go that far.
If there were people who died without being able to do anything,
As long as I could do something, I thought I had to live.
—Stop.

But my heart was almost crushed.
I held back my tears and walked on in search of an escape.
It was hard to live on while ignoring the pleas for help.
I knew…
It would be easier if I apologized, so I never apologized.



'it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts'

…And as I wished, I alone was saved.
The only ones at the hospital were children unfortunate enough to be in areas near where the fire occurred.
I didn't want to know about it, but the man in the white coat told me.
In that area.
I was the only survivor.

—Stop already

I saw people dying in pain.
I saw just as many sad people.
Because there was a funeral for all those who died in a big building.
Every kind of sadness and affection for those that died.
I thought that…

—Just stop.

'Hey hey hey hey'

I had to remember every single bit of it.
It's only natural.
That many people wanted to be helped, and not one of them had their wish granted.
So—since my wish was granted, I thought it was only natural for me to take on their deaths.

No.
I could not hold my head up unless I thought so.

—No more…

'Give it back give it back give it back give it back'

That's why I frantically chased after Kiritsugu.
For those I couldn't save and for the things I couldn't do, I admired a superhero who could save someone.
What was me crumbled away as I ignored the pleas for help.
I kept moving forward with an empty mind.
No more.

'Please please please please……!'

The people I didn't save taught me that I had to go on.

…What was lost within all that?
I just thought about going forward in place of all the people that died.
I couldn't think of anything else.
I sealed any memories before that so that I would never think about them.

People kinder than anyone else.
Memories of those who were my parents.
So as not to recall them and go back…
…I sealed them tight, thinking I was already dead.
—Don't open it.

It's not painful.
Emiya Shirou was happy, being adopted by Emiya Kiritsugu.
So—

"So...
"You have never thought it was a mistake?"

I'm telling you, don't open that—!

"—!"
Pain.
The pain in my chest pulls me back to reality.

"Ha—ah, gu—!"
My nausea doesn't stop.
My limbs are numb, and my head is burning.
My breathing is ragged.

'Return it return it return it return it'

Their voices are echoing in my head.

"Ha—guh…!"
…I throw up blood.
Is it because my body is dying or because I cannot endure those voices?
My chest hurts.
My chest hurts.
My chest hurts.
I can't plug it even if I try.
What hurts is the pain inside.
It will keep hurting as long as the memory is there, and it will never heal.

"—"
Is it an illusion?
I see a figure that should not be here.
"—! Guh—!"
So, I have to bear this.
I can't think about wanting to die.
If she is here even in illusion—I have to act like I'm all right

"—It is a deep wound. It will be painful if it is not healed. You should not end your life bearing that."
I hear the priest's voice.
The voice is totally unlike him, filled with compassion.

"You said you do not need the Holy Grail.
But is that true? If you can redo what happened ten years ago, will you not seek the Holy Grail?
You can save everything that was lost in that incident.
You can eliminate that disaster, not associate yourself with Emiya Kiritsugu, and be your true self.
Is that not the only way to save yourself?"

Redo the incident ten years ago…?
Redo myself who survived by not saving anyone?
No, more than that, if I could make that incident as if it never happened so that no one would be hurt

"—Why…"
I shake my head.
I reject that vision with my burning head.
I spit at my own weakness.
Because—

'It hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts'

...I hear their voices.
My fingers feel the wet floor.

...Help.

They all want to go back to that day.

"—"
…Yeah. I wanted that too, though it can't have been as bad as you guys.
Even after Kiritsugu adopted me.
I went to the burned field often to look at the scenery.
I went to the place where nothing remained, opened the door that didn't exist, walked through the hallway that didn't exist, and smiled at my mother who wasn't there anymore.

…I wanted to return to the days before it happened.
I awaited the day when I would wake from this bad dream.
That didn't happen and I accepted reality.
But if I could obtain a world where it didn't happen and where nobody got hurt, that would certainly be

"Now, answer. If you wish for it, I shall give you the Holy Grail."
The priest with the Holy Grail says so.

'return it return it return it return it'

If I wish, these voices will go away.
Orphans like me. If fate had taken a slight turn, I would be there as well.
So I don't even need to think about this.
I don't need… to think about it, so why…?

"—I don't need it. I can't wish for such a thing."

I stare straight at the dead corpses.
And I reject them.

—That is my answer.

It doesn't matter what the Holy Grail is.
I can't wish to regenerate the dead nor to change the past.

"…Right, you… can't redo the past.
The dead won't come back. What's done cannot be redone. I can't wish for such a thing."

My cheeks are hot.
Every time I say such a miracle is impossible, tears pour out from vexation.
I wonder why 'miracles' wishing for such normal happiness are too much for people.

"The Holy Grail makes that possible. Everything will be as you wish."
The priest says so.
But I can't agree.

Even if I could redo the past, I must not take back what has already happened.
Because if I do that, everything would be a lie.
Those tears.
Those pains.
Those memories.
—That cold reality that hurts my heart, all of it.

There were people who died in pain. There were people who risked their lives to save others.
There were people who mourned for the deaths.
But then, if everything were taken back and it did not happen, where would all of those go?

The dead people would not come back.
Reality cannot be overturned.
To continue on remembering the pain and the weight… isn't that how lost things remain?

…People will eventually die, and death itself is sad.
But pain shouldn't be the only thing that remains.
A death is painful, but it also leaves behind bright memories.
As I am bound by these people's deaths…
As I am protected by my memories of Kiritsugu…
I believe memories become constraints and change the people living now.

…Even if…
They are memories that will eventually be forgotten.

"—This path... I don't believe it's the wrong one."
"—I see. Then you..."
"I don't need the Holy Grail. I can't stray from my path for the people I've left behind."

I declare so within my pain.
I control the pain and my fading consciousness, and manage to stay up on my knees.

Then, I finally realize.
…I can't hear the voices.
The voices aren't echoing anymore.
…I don't know how they took my answer.






"—"
The anger she bore until just a moment ago has disappeared.
She is at a loss for words, staring at her Master.



With his bloody body.
With his ragged breath.
Controlling his tears.



He has apologized to everything he has stepped on, but he still declares that he will not change his path.

"—"
Her vision wavers.
She cannot breathe right either.
She knew of his past.
As Emiya Shirou has seen Saber's past, she has also seen his.

That is why she thought he would nod.
No, she thought he had to nod.
She wanted to say that it was not his fault.
If he could hear, she wanted to say that it is not something Emiya Shirou should be burdened with.

But still, he denied it.
No matter how painful the past,
…One cannot redo it.
I just love that scene. It's like an accumulation of Shirou's conclusion on all other routes rolled into a single scene.

In addition to that, he has someone to love who loves him back (HF) and he still follows his ideals (UBW), which if you ask me is what makes Emiya Shirou truly Emiya Shirou. Oh, and this Shirou is the only Shirou to have ever reached Avalon, which is basically an eternal private heaven for both Shirou and Saber if I get things correctly. And that's not mentioning how to reach it.

People can say that they like UBW or HF Shirou better, but I would still argue that Fate!Shirou is at least as good if not better than all of them. I like him the most, actually, and I will admit that a lot of it was because of that scene. There is simply something admirable in looking at a temptation that speaks to the core of your being and saying no to it as you remain true to your beliefs. Not that the other Shirou aren't admirable (UBW!Shirou looked at the consequence his choice will bring him and still follows his path because it's the right path, and HF!Shirou can say damn to all consequences if it means saving the people that are genuinely important to him), it's just that this one is my favorite among the others.

note: sorry for the long post, but I just can't hold it anymore with how many people saying they hate Shirou. Their opinions are theirs, true, but I honestly felt like they didn't even read the VN, which is probably true because at least they would say that either HF or UBW was okay, but Fate!Shirou still gets the most flak from so many people when I like him so much.
 
Last edited:
horngeek said:
The Eizenbern are brilliant at self-sabotage, news at 11. :p
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

"We have recruited Emiya Kiritsugu to serve as the Einzbern Master. He is a merciless killer who will use any means necessary to achieve his goal. Now, what ancient hero shall we summon for his Servant?"

"Oh, I know! The super honorable and chivalrous King
Of Knights!"

And then that gal was hoisted onto the other Einzberns shoulders and carried around the castle in triumph while they hailed her as the most brilliant mind of her generation.
 
Last edited:
Feng Lengshun said:
I still don't understand why people keep on hating Fate!Shirou. Like, most of them keep on thinking "This Shirou is so damn whiny, pathetic, and sexist." Does everyone only watch DEEN F/SN or something? Because I'm pretty sure there are reasoning for all of those in the VN, and he developed into the most sane Emiya Shirou (debatable, admittedly, but I don't count HF!Shirou as Emiya Shirou as he threw away his old ideals).

For the latter, I'm pretty sure that that's just his hypocritical decision, the story even pointed out to it. Not to mention there's the whole Japanese 'women should be feminine thing', meaning they should act like normal women acts at the very least and strive to be a yamato nadeshiko, until they get married after which they get to reign the household (no, really, pretty much all monetary matters are held by the wife).

As for the former two... this Shirou is the least power-level-tastic among all the Shirou, and he's also the one that is most well-adjusted among all the other Shirou. Also, there's this one awesome scene in VN where he dealt with his survivor guilt. The only one to have done so.


"Ah—haa, haa, haa, ah—"
All I can hear is my own breathing now.
I might have a fever that could burn someone to ashes, as it feels like my brain is already melting and pouring out of my ears.

'stop stop stop stop'

"Ha—haa, ah, haa, ha, ah—"
Something's wrong. I don't have a brain anymore, but my body still keeps telling me about the pain and my head accepts it.

'Help help help help'

"Ah—, haa, ah, haa, ha, ha—"
My head isn't the only thing that's empty.
I don't know where my heart or stomach are either.
The nausea is unbearable. There's nothing left to throw up, but the nausea increases without limit.
I endure the infinite repetition with gritted teeth.
…I can stay conscious. It's my pain, so only I have to endure it. There's no problem there.

'Give it back give it back give it back give it back'

"Ha—ah, ah, haa, ha, ah—"
So, the problem is the voices.
My head is empty and I can only hear my breathing, but these voices still echo in my head.
I don't even need to think whose voices they are.

'It hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts'

"Ha—aah, haa, ah, ah—"
I'm going mad.
Every time I hear their voices, I'm stabbed in the chest.
It's not scary.
I just don't have any way to atone to them.

'hey hey hey hey'

"Aah—ah, haa, haa, ah—"
No matter how much they beg for help and no matter how much I want to help them, I can't help them.
I won't ask them to stop calling to me.
It's just that no matter how much they call, I can't help them.
—That's why…
I think I'll go crazy if this continues.

'Return it return it return it return it'

"—haa, ah, ah, guh—!"
No matter how much they ask, I cannot assent.
All I can do is to end it for them.
I can only fix the contradiction of the living dead.
I can only make the creator of this hell atone for his sins.
I…
…Can't take back any sad events or miserable deaths.

—That's my limit.
A superhero only exists to straighten out what has already happened.
…Who was it that said that?
Since I denied those words, I am being cornered right now.

To be honest, I want to run away.
I have no way to save them.
I can only listen to them. I have no miracle to grant them.
I don't have enough power to deny his claim that a superhero is only so strong.
…Then, if…
If I had a miracle that could save them, would I use it—?
[...]



"You—!"
"Do not worry. I only wish to hear his answer.
The Holy Grail only answers those who wish for it. It must interest you whether your Master is appropriate for the Holy Grail or not."

"—That is useless. Shirou does not seek the Holy Grail.
My Master is not as lowly as you."

"Yes, he said so at the start.
—But that will not be his true opinion. As every man has his darkness, this man also has a dark side.
For instance, did this boy truly curse nothing on that day ten years ago? Is he not shaking it off by forgetting what lay ahead?"

—.
Hold on.
What's he saying?
The fire ten years ago has nothing to do with this.
This is meaningless.
Nothing should come out of it.



My back arches.
My mind reverses like electricity is running through it.
—In place of my fading mind, a red vision appears.

Stop.
Stop.
Stop.
Stop. Stop. Stop.
Stop, stop, stop, stop, stopstopstopstopstopstopstopstop…!!!!
There's no meaning in this.
No one will be saved if I remember this now—!





I walked alone.
I sought help and I wanted someone to save me, so I kept walking, not looking to the side.
Stop.
All the while.
How could I think that no one was asking for help from me, when I could still move?
Stop.

'help help help help'

Yeah, I noticed.
There's no way I couldn't have noticed…!
I walked though it all.

I ignored the voices sobbing in pain.
I ignored the voices going mad trying to escape.
I ignored the screams of those not wanting to die.
I ignored the pleas of mothers wanting me to take their children.

I even ignored the dying eyes that could not ask for help.
I kept walking, only seeking help for myself—!

'wait wait wait wait'

I was tired of looking at corpses.
I was already tired of seeing people die in pain.
I thought I couldn't save them.
I thought they would die no matter what I did.
That's why I never stopped.
—Stop.

'Give it back give it back give it back give it back'

I thought I had to live even a second longer because I had to go that far.
If there were people who died without being able to do anything,
As long as I could do something, I thought I had to live.
—Stop.

But my heart was almost crushed.
I held back my tears and walked on in search of an escape.
It was hard to live on while ignoring the pleas for help.
I knew…
It would be easier if I apologized, so I never apologized.



'it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts'

…And as I wished, I alone was saved.
The only ones at the hospital were children unfortunate enough to be in areas near where the fire occurred.
I didn't want to know about it, but the man in the white coat told me.
In that area.
I was the only survivor.

—Stop already

I saw people dying in pain.
I saw just as many sad people.
Because there was a funeral for all those who died in a big building.
Every kind of sadness and affection for those that died.
I thought that…

—Just stop.

'Hey hey hey hey'

I had to remember every single bit of it.
It's only natural.
That many people wanted to be helped, and not one of them had their wish granted.
So—since my wish was granted, I thought it was only natural for me to take on their deaths.

No.
I could not hold my head up unless I thought so.

—No more…

'Give it back give it back give it back give it back'

That's why I frantically chased after Kiritsugu.
For those I couldn't save and for the things I couldn't do, I admired a superhero who could save someone.
What was me crumbled away as I ignored the pleas for help.
I kept moving forward with an empty mind.
No more.

'Please please please please……!'

The people I didn't save taught me that I had to go on.

…What was lost within all that?
I just thought about going forward in place of all the people that died.
I couldn't think of anything else.
I sealed any memories before that so that I would never think about them.

People kinder than anyone else.
Memories of those who were my parents.
So as not to recall them and go back…
…I sealed them tight, thinking I was already dead.
—Don't open it.

It's not painful.
Emiya Shirou was happy, being adopted by Emiya Kiritsugu.
So—

"So...
"You have never thought it was a mistake?"

I'm telling you, don't open that—!

"—!"
Pain.
The pain in my chest pulls me back to reality.

"Ha—ah, gu—!"
My nausea doesn't stop.
My limbs are numb, and my head is burning.
My breathing is ragged.

'Return it return it return it return it'

Their voices are echoing in my head.

"Ha—guh…!"
…I throw up blood.
Is it because my body is dying or because I cannot endure those voices?
My chest hurts.
My chest hurts.
My chest hurts.
I can't plug it even if I try.
What hurts is the pain inside.
It will keep hurting as long as the memory is there, and it will never heal.

"—"
Is it an illusion?
I see a figure that should not be here.
"—! Guh—!"
So, I have to bear this.
I can't think about wanting to die.
If she is here even in illusion—I have to act like I'm all right

"—It is a deep wound. It will be painful if it is not healed. You should not end your life bearing that."
I hear the priest's voice.
The voice is totally unlike him, filled with compassion.

"You said you do not need the Holy Grail.
But is that true? If you can redo what happened ten years ago, will you not seek the Holy Grail?
You can save everything that was lost in that incident.
You can eliminate that disaster, not associate yourself with Emiya Kiritsugu, and be your true self.
Is that not the only way to save yourself?"

Redo the incident ten years ago…?
Redo myself who survived by not saving anyone?
No, more than that, if I could make that incident as if it never happened so that no one would be hurt

"—Why…"
I shake my head.
I reject that vision with my burning head.
I spit at my own weakness.
Because—

'It hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts'

...I hear their voices.
My fingers feel the wet floor.

...Help.

They all want to go back to that day.

"—"
…Yeah. I wanted that too, though it can't have been as bad as you guys.
Even after Kiritsugu adopted me.
I went to the burned field often to look at the scenery.
I went to the place where nothing remained, opened the door that didn't exist, walked through the hallway that didn't exist, and smiled at my mother who wasn't there anymore.

…I wanted to return to the days before it happened.
I awaited the day when I would wake from this bad dream.
That didn't happen and I accepted reality.
But if I could obtain a world where it didn't happen and where nobody got hurt, that would certainly be

"Now, answer. If you wish for it, I shall give you the Holy Grail."
The priest with the Holy Grail says so.

'return it return it return it return it'

If I wish, these voices will go away.
Orphans like me. If fate had taken a slight turn, I would be there as well.
So I don't even need to think about this.
I don't need… to think about it, so why…?

"—I don't need it. I can't wish for such a thing."

I stare straight at the dead corpses.
And I reject them.

—That is my answer.

It doesn't matter what the Holy Grail is.
I can't wish to regenerate the dead nor to change the past.

"…Right, you… can't redo the past.
The dead won't come back. What's done cannot be redone. I can't wish for such a thing."

My cheeks are hot.
Every time I say such a miracle is impossible, tears pour out from vexation.
I wonder why 'miracles' wishing for such normal happiness are too much for people.

"The Holy Grail makes that possible. Everything will be as you wish."
The priest says so.
But I can't agree.

Even if I could redo the past, I must not take back what has already happened.
Because if I do that, everything would be a lie.
Those tears.
Those pains.
Those memories.
—That cold reality that hurts my heart, all of it.

There were people who died in pain. There were people who risked their lives to save others.
There were people who mourned for the deaths.
But then, if everything were taken back and it did not happen, where would all of those go?

The dead people would not come back.
Reality cannot be overturned.
To continue on remembering the pain and the weight… isn't that how lost things remain?

…People will eventually die, and death itself is sad.
But pain shouldn't be the only thing that remains.
A death is painful, but it also leaves behind bright memories.
As I am bound by these people's deaths…
As I am protected by my memories of Kiritsugu…
I believe memories become constraints and change the people living now.

…Even if…
They are memories that will eventually be forgotten.

"—This path... I don't believe it's the wrong one."
"—I see. Then you..."
"I don't need the Holy Grail. I can't stray from my path for the people I've left behind."

I declare so within my pain.
I control the pain and my fading consciousness, and manage to stay up on my knees.

Then, I finally realize.
…I can't hear the voices.
The voices aren't echoing anymore.
…I don't know how they took my answer.






"—"
The anger she bore until just a moment ago has disappeared.
She is at a loss for words, staring at her Master.



With his bloody body.
With his ragged breath.
Controlling his tears.



He has apologized to everything he has stepped on, but he still declares that he will not change his path.

"—"
Her vision wavers.
She cannot breathe right either.
She knew of his past.
As Emiya Shirou has seen Saber's past, she has also seen his.

That is why she thought he would nod.
No, she thought he had to nod.
She wanted to say that it was not his fault.
If he could hear, she wanted to say that it is not something Emiya Shirou should be burdened with.

But still, he denied it.
No matter how painful the past,
…One cannot redo it.
I just love that scene. It's like an accumulation of Shirou's conclusion on all other routes rolled into a single scene.

In addition to that, he has someone to love who loves him back (HF) and he still follows his ideals (UBW), which if you ask me is what makes Emiya Shirou truly Emiya Shirou. Oh, and this Shirou is the only Shirou to have ever reached Avalon, which is basically an eternal private heaven for both Shirou and Saber if I get things correctly. And that's not mentioning how to reach it.

People can say that they like UBW or HF Shirou better, but I would still argue that Fate!Shirou is at least as good if not better than all of them. I like him the most, actually, and I will admit that a lot of it was because of that scene. There is simply something admirable in looking at a temptation that speaks to the core of your being and saying no to it as you remain true to your beliefs. Not that the other Shirou aren't admirable (UBW!Shirou looked at the consequence his choice will bring him and still follows his path because it's the right path, and HF!Shirou can say damn to all consequences if it means saving the people that are genuinely important to him), it's just that this one is my favorite among the others.

note: sorry for the long post, but I just can't hold it anymore with how many people saying they hate Shirou. Their opinions are theirs, true, but I honestly felt like they didn't even read the VN, which is probably true because at least they would say that either HF or UBW was okay, but Fate!Shirou still gets the most flak from so many people when I like him so much.
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You're not the only one. I'm much less bothered about the flak he gets, but I still feels as if he deserves more praise. Besides, Fate has the most bittersweet ending, with HF Normal coming in close behind.
 
That's what Realta Nua is for. And by the way one person included it in his list of reasons why Nasu is most likely a Christian by the way, what's with the whole "God does not guarantee you will live in happiness but only that you lived a good life and that true happiness only exists in heaven," vibe, he said.
 
Feng Lengshun said:
That's what Realta Nua is for. And by the way one person included it in his list of reasons why Nasu is most likely a Christian by the way, what's with the whole "God does not guarantee you will live in happiness but only that you lived a good life and that true happiness only exists in heaven," vibe, he said.
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Really? I thought that the Nasuverse god was supposed to not care about humanity at all. That said, it does kind of make sense in light of the RN ending.
 
Let me search for it... found it:

James D. Fawkes said:
It's not like it's an official statement or anything, but the hints are there if you look for them.

Too tired to remember all the points right now, but...

Okay. You guys know why magic is such a Bad Thing in Christianity, and basically every Abrahamic religion in the world, right?

To be clear, it's not that magic is considered inherently bad. The reason is because humans can't do magic on their own; magic is just a higher, supernatural power performing "miracles." Theurgy, in other words. That's still not bad. What's bad is that there are only two sources for this magic: God and demons.

Now, God doesn't share his magic unless he likes you and has a plan for what you're going to be doing with it. That's where we get Saints and stuff. If he intended for you to have it, he'll give it to you, but if not, then he's not giving you any, no matter how much you plead.

The Devil and demons, on the other hand, are perfectly willing to hand over some magic and do a few things for you - provided you give them your soul or your virginity or something. That's why you'd get burned for performing magic way back when, and probably where that infamous line in the Old Testament comes from. If you got convicted of being a witch, that meant you were in league with the devil and deserved to be shunned, at the very least, by any good Christian.

So then, in the Nasuverse, Demons are spawned by human desire and suffering. Basically, "If you don't live a good life, you're inviting demons to take advantage of you." That's a very Christian message.

Secondly, in Nasuverse, there are no happy endings. There are vaguely "good" endings, but there's no such thing as a happily ever after, and the only thing that even really resembles it (Realta Nua Fate Epilogue) requires Saber and Shirou to die first. That's also a very Christian message: God never said He would make sure you found happiness. He just said you would live a good life if you lived in His name.

Thirdly, there are no "real" gods. The closest thing you get on Earth is Divine Spirits, but they're not omnipotent. They've got some incredible powers, especially the higher level ones, and they even have some reality warping hax, but they don't reach the level of "Let there be Light" God.

In fact, the "Let there be Light" God in Nasuverse is Akasha and "whatever" lies there. So Akasha is God.

Fourthly, and most importantly, all magecraft is Theurgy. There are no "invented" spells, there's only "rediscovering mysteries," and all mysteries radiate out from the Root. Ergo, all magecraft leeches off of stuff from the Root, and since the Root is God, all magecraft is essentially Theurgy.

He's very roundabout about it, and he disguises it very well with Eastern and Shintoistic logic, but when you peel that all away and hit the bare bones, you get a very Christian philosophy.
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Feng Lengshun said:
Let me search for it... found it:
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This explanation reminds me alot of the various meanings that fans come up with in Evangelion, ie trying to find a pattern even if there isn't one. That analysis disregards the various Buddhist and Shinto elements that Nasu puts in his stories in favour of finding the ones that most fit Christian philosophy. I won't deny that it is possible that Nasu intended it this way because he's a big fan of Christian philosophy, but it is also equally likely that he constructs his stories with those elements simply because those elements make a good story.
 
A Nation's Virtue said:
Really? I thought that the Nasuverse god was supposed to not care about humanity at all.
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Yeah, as was explained in DDD:
fuyuki wiki said:
God

神 - Kami

(General rendition/imagery of God - probably matches with the Church version - in DDD)

If God's a phenomenon that's perfect and flawless while omniscient and omnipotent, demons are phenomena that are absurd and nontangible while human and incompetent.

Back in the old days, demons used to be thought of as messengers of God, but God and demons are completely different; how people are suffering under demons isn't being heard by him.

Since demons are incompetent, they hang around humans, but God doesn't care about humans. Doesn't care about faith and no interest in how humans have fun or suffer; since of course, he just needs himself. That's what it means to be omniscient and omnipotent.

So the only thing he has ever had to say to us is "Bug off, don't bother me."

Which would be the general gist of what Kinoko wanted to say in DDD.
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Which is one of the biggest reason I disagree with the underlying Christian narrative, along with the themes of Kara no Kyoukai, which are as far from Christianity as you can get (disregarding the Catholic Reien Academy which doesn't mean much to the overall matter).
 
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Feng Lengshun said:
I still don't understand why people keep on hating Fate!Shirou. Like, most of them keep on thinking "This Shirou is so damn whiny, pathetic, and sexist." Does everyone only watch DEEN F/SN or something? Because I'm pretty sure there are reasoning for all of those in the VN, and he developed into the most sane Emiya Shirou
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I don't dislike Fate!Shirou, I dislike Fate as a whole because one of the big central things is Saber and Shirous romance and just...no. There are a huge number of problems with how that romance is handled, not the least of which is it handles Saber's character very poorly and the route is sexist in the most obnoxious way possible. I mean, it has it's good moments, but overall it just doesn't have the consistancy of UBW or the Chemistry of Heaven's Feel.

(debatable, admittedly, but I don't count HF!Shirou as Emiya Shirou as he threw away his old ideals).
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I always took away from the entirety of F/SN that Shirou wasn't capable of sustaining being the person his ideals demanded of him. He would always burn bright and then die out, doing good at the price of himself. I joke about him being a good waifu, but honestly thats because of all the roles he might fill that one seems to suit him best. He never seems upset when he's providing for people, and my take is that in HF he understands he doesn't have to save everyone to be a net-good on the world.

Basically I feel like for Shirou, Kiritsugu's promise was poision, something that might make the world a better place but would always destroy him. He just isn't the kind of person who can maintain it.

It's not like it's an official statement or anything, but the hints are there if you look for them.

Too tired to remember all the points right now, but...
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This whole argument, while vaguely interesting, isn't really very strong, and kind of feels like trying to apply their own understanding onto something. I doubt it's intentional, but it has a lot of problems.

So then, in the Nasuverse, Demons are spawned by human desire and suffering. Basically, "If you don't live a good life, you're inviting demons to take advantage of you." That's a very Christian message.
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This for instance is just silly. "Negativity breeds negativity" is not some uniquely christian message, and people attributing that negativity to spirits or demons summoned by said isn't ether.

Secondly, in Nasuverse, there are no happy endings. There are vaguely "good" endings, but there's no such thing as a happily ever after, and the only thing that even really resembles it (Realta Nua Fate Epilogue) requires Saber and Shirou to die first. That's also a very Christian message: God never said He would make sure you found happiness. He just said you would live a good life if you lived in His name.
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Also I'm not sure what they're definition of 'Happily Ever After' is but I'm going to say that for the most part Ciel True, UBW True, UBW Good and HF True are all happily ever after. I want to say some of the Far Side routes in Tsukihime fit as well, but like those take a lot of suffering to get to, and really only Hisuei could be argued. Still, the idea that there is no Happily Ever after is kind of really weird.

Thirdly, there are no "real" gods. The closest thing you get on Earth is Divine Spirits, but they're not omnipotent. They've got some incredible powers, especially the higher level ones, and they even have some reality warping hax, but they don't reach the level of "Let there be Light" God.

In fact, the "Let there be Light" God in Nasuverse is Akasha and "whatever" lies there. So Akasha is God.
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"There are no 'true' gods and Akasha is the centre of the universes cosmology QED Akasha is god."

Overall, I think the writer is warping the ideas to fit his view. They're starting with the idea 'Nasu has a Christian message" and forcing the facts to fit rather then the other way around.
 
anisarian said:
"There are no 'true' gods and Akasha is the centre of the universes cosmology QED Akasha is god."

Overall, I think the writer is warping the ideas to fit his view. They're starting with the idea 'Nasu has a Christian message" and forcing the facts to fit rather then the other way around.
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Wow, I must have watched one too many videogame reviews in the past few days, because I saw that as "QTE Akasha", and I was like:

"...You reach Akasha through a quick time event? o_O"
 
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Silver W. King said:
Wow, I must have watched one too many videogame reviews in the past few days, because I saw that as "QTE Akasha", and I was like:

"...You reach Akasha through a quick time event? o_O"
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Naturally. And since most Magi are technology phobic, and those that aren't tend not to care about the Root anyway, it's no wonder so few Magi ever reach Akasha. Because to do so, they need video game knowledge! It makes perfect sense!
 
In regards to Shirou (said the poster whose freshest memories are of the Unlimited Blade Works movie) my problem with him is, well...

He's just kinda vaguely filling this protagonist shaped hole in the story. Rin, Cuchulain, Saber, even Kuzuku...all these people have interesting stories I'd like to follow, and instead I'm stuck with this guy.

I have similar issues with a lot of recent action movies, you get actors like Mickey Rourke, Liam Neeson, and Stephen Lang in supporting roles and then Bland Stubbly Caucasian Male Lead gets all the screen time.
 
Wade Garrett said:
He's just kinda vaguely filling this protagonist shaped hole in the story.
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Pretty much this, but I only apply it to the Fate route. In there, Shirou is as close to the generic boy protagonist of the average eroge VN as possible. They tease us about Shirou's personality and depth, but in the end the route as a whole boils down to romancing Saber, or at least that's the impression it left on me.

UBW and HF on the other hand, do work on exploring Shirou and adding to his character. He stops being generic in those two routes.
 
Wade Garrett said:
In regards to Shirou (said the poster whose freshest memories are of the Unlimited Blade Works movie) my problem with him is, well...

He's just kinda vaguely filling this protagonist shaped hole in the story. Rin, Cuchulain, Saber, even Kuzuku...all these people have interesting stories I'd like to follow, and instead I'm stuck with this guy.

I have similar issues with a lot of recent action movies, you get actors like Mickey Rourke, Liam Neeson, and Stephen Lang in supporting roles and then Bland Stubbly Caucasian Male Lead gets all the screen time.
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Only really apply to Fate route though - though Realta Nua Last Episode makes his position shot up a lot more since it means the would follow said ideals, searching for Saber nonstop.

UBW and HF show us just how abnormal he really is.
 
I'm actually pretty skeptical about James' theory, but I decided to post it to get you guys' opinion on it.

As for Fate!Shirou, personally, I felt like it's best seen as a full circle thing. See, when I first read the route, I was pretty meh too. It's not bad... but not as good as the latter one and the romance felt like it works mostly because of how Saber was very inexperienced in dealing with romance and her previous experience in Holy Grail War (which it probably is) kind of like how Zerban joked that Philia only want to be with Kirito only because she didn't have contact with another human for two months.

I chalked it to Nasu trying to salvage his old scenario (Fate/Prototype) and the need to explain the premise, but I still wasn't very impressed. Then I decided to re-read the VN. Everything that happened took a deeper meaning due to my greater understanding of Shirou and what could have happened to him. The romance still kind of... uh... but seeing how much damaged Shirou was, it feels kind of cute to me, like seeing two people trying to learn how to walk together or something like that. It just felt better after knowing the rest of the story for me.

Still, I maintain the opinion that the route order should have been Fate>HF>UBW because it would give a more uplifting message that way and UBW Good Ending is pretty much the Good Ending of F/sn where everyone is likely to be happy. Except for Sakura, maybe though since the Grail is dismantled making Zouken not have something to fight for anymore, *shrug* maybe even her.

Wade Garrett said:
He's just kinda vaguely filling this protagonist shaped hole in the story. Rin, Cuchulain, Saber, even Kuzuku...all these people have interesting stories I'd like to follow, and instead I'm stuck with this guy.
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Maybe because Shirou as a protagonist relies a lot on his monologue. I mean, his characterization relies very much on knowing that he is hurting himself, and how he progress from there. As another person has said, he's like a robot that admires humanity, and he's also a sword that needs a concrete purpose and maintenance so that he doesn't break (or get forged into an even better sword). It's like seeing someone trying to be a human, and remembering his conditions, that's not too far off the mark.

Still, those all relies on monologue and following what he's doing and thinking closely, which the anime aren't very good at conveying.
 
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