She's using two Kaleidoscope powered toys to boost up an instance of Heaven's Feel and an instance of Denial of Nothingness and then crossing the streams.

The odds of it not blowing up catastrophically is negligible.

instance of Denial of Nothingness

Wait. What.

From what I remember Miyu's family are just naturally occuring living Grails. Shirou even mentions to Julian. The parents 'wished' for their children to grow up strong and healthy
 
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Then you're the kind of person who'd kidnap a small child and murder her for the sake of stopping global warming. Congratulations, I guess?

And yes, if I were her brother or boyfriend or just a random person with a shred of decency, I'd absolutely get in your way.

I mean, your premise is that it's evil to risk or outright give up on the lives of many people when you can instead kill a few people. When did it stop being evil to kill a few people? You're just choosing degrees of evil. When do you stop? Do you balk at killing 499,999 people to save 500,001? When did morality become democratic? When did the value of life become weighted by numbers? Are two people worth more than one? Is a child worth less than an adult? How many convicted rapists add up to a school teacher or nurse? How many limbs can you amputate before a mercy-kill is the right way to go? Can you show me your working in the margins?

Why the hell should Shirou agree to let a pack of scumbags murder his little sister? Because "lives will be saved"? Fuck off with that.

Kiritsugu was a dumbass who died from a literal overdose of edge, and even he managed to work this out at some point.
Doesn't what's-his-name want to save the world? As in, unless he sacrifices Miyu everything dies in nuclear hatefire or whatever?

That is not the same as Kiritsugu's retarded actions or even "chose few to save many" examples you put up. Of course, hero will come up with third option villain conveniently overlook because plot, but in both of his choices Miyu dies, except in one rest of world doesn't die together with her.
 
Doesn't what's-his-name want to save the world? As in, unless he sacrifices Miyu everything dies in nuclear hatefire or whatever?
It's ??? with heavy Notes references, so it's really only as much 'end of the world stopping' as Amakusa's MO was; maybe a little more.

That is not the same as Kiritsugu's retarded actions or even "chose few to save many" examples you put up. Of course, hero will come up with third option villain conveniently overlook because plot, but in both of his choices Miyu dies, except in one rest of world doesn't die together with her.
It's still thematically the same because the core premise is still 'Will you commit evil to bring salvation?' and we've already seen what happens when you try that in the Nasuverse. Narratively speaking, it's infinitely safer to just take your lumps and carpe diem rather than freak out over the future and some larger abstract 'salvation' or 'damnation'.
 
That is not the same as Kiritsugu's retarded actions or even "chose few to save many" examples you put up. Of course, hero will come up with third option villain conveniently overlook because plot, but in both of his choices Miyu dies, except in one rest of world doesn't die together with her.
Even if Miyu dies, it is the same "sacrificing few to save many" thing, though. In one choice, Miyu dies now, in the other she lives to see the end of the world and dies with everyone else, as everyone else. If that makes it somehow different from Kiritsugu's actions, then there cannot be such a thing as "sacrificing few to save many" because everyone will die eventually. Your logic is faulty, Wolfy. At least bring the future generations into the argument if you want it to hold.

Besides, Shirou wishes to send Miyu to another world so that she doesn't die along with the world so no, she doesn't die in both cases.
 
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From what I remember Miyu's family are just naturally occuring living Grails. Shirou even mentions to Julian. The parents 'wished' for their children to grow up strong and healthy
Oh yeah, that's another thing; wishes seem to work best when you just wish for not-massive fuckhuge sweeping changes and/or abstract conceptual bullshit. Drake was perfectly ok with just wishing for the pirate's life with her grail, Miyu's family never had anything bad happen to them with their wishes for their kids to be ok, and Fragments revealed that if Arthur's wish is granted there it'd create a singularity like the GO singularities and while the World can handle one of those it's still a big no-no; hence why Manaka's bringing the apocalypse so she can make a new world in Avalon for Arthur.

It's pretty safe to assume that Artoria's wish would probably end up along similar lines because it's the same wish and we've already seen that one singularity basically gives the world a year before it's gotta be fixed. It's probably safe to assume that Julian's probably gonna end up running into a similar sort of problem that all the other people trying to fix things with massive sweeping wishes end up running into.
 
instance of Denial of Nothingness

Wait. What.

From what I remember Miyu's family are just naturally occuring living Grails. Shirou even mentions to Julian. The parents 'wished' for their children to grow up strong and healthy
Wish granting mechanism, but it's not Materialization of Souls. It's just Something from Nothing.
 
It's ??? with heavy Notes references, so it's really only as much 'end of the world stopping' as Amakusa's MO was; maybe a little more.
So extinction of 99,99% of humankind, i presume.
Even if Miyu dies, it is the same "sacrificing few to save many" thing, though. In one choice, Miyu dies now, in the other she lives to see the end of the world and dies with everyone else, as everyone else. If that makes it somehow different from Kiritsugu's actions, there is no such thing as "sacrificing few to save many" because everyone will die eventually. Your logic is faulty, Wolfy. At least bring the future generations into the argument if you want it to hold.
Wow, that's some next level reaching.

That girl is dead. Choosing to kill her yourself instead of waiting for the end of the world as we know it means that you, your friends and family and entire fucking humanity won't die together with her because you wanted to let her see the end for some reason.

Future generations are irrelevant here.
Besides, Shirou wishes to send Miyu to another world so that she doesn't die along with the world so no, she doesn't die in both cases.
But what's-his-name also wants to send her to the next world! :V
 
That girl is dead. Choosing to kill her yourself instead of waiting for the end of the world as we know it means that you, your friends and family and entire fucking humanity won't die together with her because you wanted to let her see the end for some reason.
Hahaha

We're all dead in the long-term, dude. By your logic, murder that produces any sort of abstract long-term gain whatsoever is totally justified, no matter how small, because that person was dead already (in the distant, yet-to-be-determined future), so there's no sin in it. By your logic, we ought to wipe out a few countries right here and now to slow down global warming.
 
Hahaha

We're all dead in the long-term, dude. By your logic, murder that produces any sort of abstract long-term gain whatsoever is totally justified, no matter how small, because that person was dead already (in the distant, yet-to-be-determined future), so there's no sin in it. By your logic, we ought to wipe out a few countries right here and now to slow down global warming.
That's fucking dumb.

Am i supposed to take equating death from aging and literal fucking apocalypse seriously?
 
Hahaha

We're all dead in the long-term, dude. By your logic, murder that produces any sort of abstract long-term gain whatsoever is totally justified, no matter how small, because that person was dead already (in the distant, yet-to-be-determined future), so there's no sin in it. By your logic, we ought to wipe out a few countries right here and now to slow down global warming.
Such a shame that methods that can do that in a reasonable time frame don't leave a lot of bodies or hurts the environment way too much, else we can use them to feed the trees.
 
Wait, what?
...I suspect we'll be seeing Proto!Arthur in the upcoming Camelot Singularity.
Not in the mood looking through the Fragments translation, if it's even there at that point; but here's a summary:
You from Beast's Lair said:
so didn't post this before because i wasn't sure what sakurai was getting at but re-reading it I gets it.
So after para gets his jimmes rustled, he asks if Arthur's wish is something necessary, basically what does Beast have to do with Arthur's wish.
And then Manaka says that in fulfilling Arthur's wish, the Humanity Foundation might not fully break, time space may be kinda okay because it's just one singularity. And this is kinda seen in GO when just Fuyuki is the only singularity and humanity is okay until next year.
So because of this, Manaka isn't sure that Arthur's wish will be granted.
In comes solution Beast. Destroy the world. All the people who are still alive will go to Avalon and Arthur will be King of the new BRITAIN!!!!!!!!!
You're a genius Manaka, a bloody genius.
Wait.

How is she going to make sure that they all get sent to Avalon instead of reentering the cycle of transmigration and having their Origins recycled?
You from Beast's Lair said:
she's gonna kill everyone right.
But like there are people who are going to survive right.
Those people go to Avalon somehow and are allowed to be ruled by Arthur.

That's fucking dumb.

Am i supposed to take equating death from aging and literal fucking apocalypse seriously?
Amakusa was also trying to save mankind by doing all the shit he did and basically manipulating and being willing to sacrifice fuck knows how many innocent people to achieve his goals. And Twice's goals of perpetual war to advance mankind were proven to be right even if fucking horrifying. And Saber's proven wrong to want to undo her past to make her kingdom better via using the Holy Grail.

The point is that the little things validate or invalidate the big things; it's literally shown in how Zouken, who wanted to save the world, eventually became a scumbag because he focused on that large goal to the point of ignoring everything else and became a literal bag of dickworms. Twice, Amakusa, and Julian all make that exact same mistake for different reasons and with different results, but it's still the same damn mistake. Shit, even Saber and Touko make that mistake and either learn from it or just get rekt by their opponent with the opposite stance and perspective.

This shit was all the way back in goddamn Tsukihime and Notes; the former having Shiki who went out and enjoyed life because his eyes and Aoko taught him how important life and living is, and Notes is literally 'SoL where eldritch abomination learns what it is to live from last average joe while the world continues to die around them'.

The lesson is that you can't lose sight of the little things in pursuit of the greater goal, otherwise you invalidate that greater goal, or just lose sight of it completely and end up with something completely different.
 
That's fucking dumb.

Am i supposed to take equating death from aging and literal fucking apocalypse seriously?
Prisma Illya 3rei said:
"It's apparently summer in this country, yet it's snowing. Do you get it now? The Earth's axis is out of alignment, and sudden changes in the environment and such are already happening worldwide. You saw for yourselves. Even the coastline has gone through a tremendous transformation. This world's end is near. At worst, it won't last another ten generations."
Oh, look at that, you don't know what you're talking about.

Let me put on my surprised face.

Even if you did have a clue, all you're doing is adding the question of "length" to the weight of a human life. A little girl's life has no inherent value because she's going to die soon? How soon does it need to be? A year? Ten years? Are terminal cancer patients disposable, or people with brain conditions that might kill them in twenty years or ten minutes or never? Are people who live unhealthily and so are shaving decades off their lives less human and valuable than people who keep themselves trim and maintain a healthy vegan diet?

If we assume I live to be 100 years old (by no means a guarantee), I've got only 75 years left in me. So is sacrificing me a totally different prospect depending on whether the apocalypse is 70 or 80 years from now?

If I tell you that the world is definitely absolutely 100% going to end in 1000 years if you don't cap your little sister right now, how is that qualitatively different than if it's going to end in 1 year? It's not. Your stance is incoherent, because you're approaching this emotively instead of building on a clear axiom - in Shirou's case, "there is nothing worth sacrificing my little sister for, and also Julian is a murdering shitheel".
 
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@Revlid

Shit, I totally forgot about that; thanks for quoting that bit. That makes it exactly the same as Twice and Amakusa; saving the world from a nebulous and distant 'doom' by doing whatever it takes in the present to accomplish it.

Ten generations is basically 1,000 years in this day and age, give or take a few decades or so. That's not some ticking time bomb with seconds left on the clock, that's a bomb that hasn't even been completely triggered yet or just now started counting down.
 
@Revlid

Shit, I totally forgot about that; thanks for quoting that bit. That makes it exactly the same as Twice and Amakusa; saving the world from a nebulous and distant 'doom' by doing whatever it takes in the present to accomplish it.

Ten generations is basically 1,000 years in this day and age, give or take a few decades or so. That's not some ticking time bomb with seconds left on the clock, that's a bomb that hasn't even been completely triggered yet or just now started counting down.
IIRC his argument was that there wouldn't be enough magical energy left in the world to save it by magecraft later on...and also that they only got one shot at a grand ritual solution because its going to use up all the remaining mana anyway to try.

Which is to say, he's gambling the whole world on a wishing device and his own skill. If he fails, you don't have a thousand years to adapt and engineer a non-magic based solution to the world ending. It just ends.
 
Oh, look at that, you don't know what you're talking about.

Let me put on my surprised face.
I literally started this discussion asking for context on situation since i lacked it.

Then i went on arguing hypothetical apocalypse specifically because no one managed to give me a bloody context.
Even if you did have a clue, all you're doing is adding the question of "length" to the weight of a human life. A little girl's life has no inherent value because she's going to die soon? How soon does it need to be? A year? Ten years? Are terminal cancer patients disposable, or people with brain conditions that might kill them in twenty years or ten minutes or never? Are people who live unhealthily and so are shaving decades off their lives less human and valuable than people who keep themselves trim and maintain a healthy vegan diet?

If we assume I live to be 100 years old (by no means a guarantee), I've got only 75 years left in me. So is sacrificing me a totally different prospect depending on whether the apocalypse is seventy or eighty years from now?

Your stance is incoherent, because you're approaching this emotively instead of building on a clear axiom.
Human's value is entirely dependent on others. On its own it has no inherent value, since universe is a cold bitch, but it has value to people around you. To certain person, some lives are simply way more valuable than others. You give way more fucks about your friends and family than you do for some random guy dying in Africa.

"Length of life" is irrelevant concept here, and i honestly don't understand why you cling to it so much. You want to stop death of people you care about because you don't want them to die - they mean more to you regardless of "length". You are trying to assign some sort of objective value to every human, failing to realize that its worth is subjective to each human and ever changing.

In hypothetical scenario where world would end tomorrow if Miyu is not sacrificed, both parties would be correct in their actions. What's-his-name cares more about himself, his family/friends and the world than he does for Miyu and he is right for trying to sacrifice her to save all that, while Shirou cares only for his sister, as she is more valuable to him that everyone else combined(value of human life is not stackable, which is why "a million is statistic" exists. You probably care more for your parents than you do for continent-worth of unknown people) so he is correct to give them middle finger and ship her off world.

From their personal perspectives, anyway.

As for actual scenario, i still don't know enough to make educated comment, but it does seem rather improbable that he can't come up with another solution that would resolve this situation without sacrifice in a thousand years. Not to mention that value of world in that timeframe should be lesser than one of his friend's(?) sister.
 
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Meanwhile Ilya was going "if you can't save the world AND your loved ones you just aren't using enuff dakka"
Oh hi there Nanoha. When did you get here and why is your outfit pink?
IIRC his argument was that there wouldn't be enough magical energy left in the world to save it by magecraft later on...and also that they only got one shot at a grand ritual solution because its going to use up all the remaining mana anyway to try.

Which is to say, he's gambling the whole world on a wishing device and his own skill. If he fails, you don't have a thousand years to adapt and engineer a non-magic based solution to the world ending. It just ends.
So what I'm seeing here is that he's completely ignoring science's ability to find a solution to a problem that is, at it's core, scientific. Instead he's focusing on the inability of magic to do anything when he knows that magic is the one dying out. (I'm including Magic, magecraft, and everything mystical here so don't call me on my semantics.) From what I'm hearing is that he's acting like the usual arrogant clock tower Mage and I feel no guilt in hearing that Shirou is wrecking his plans.
 
So what I'm seeing here is that he's completely ignoring science's ability to find a solution to a problem that is, at it's core, scientific
Actually, the universe Miyu comes from is like an earlier Extra or Notes- the world is dying, and presumably the Dead Apostle Ancestors' ritual is the cause.

Which means it isn't really something science can stop, just prepare for and adapt to.
 
Oh hi there Nanoha. When did you get here and why is your outfit pink?
Ilya's colors ARE white and pink like Nanoha's...

Actually, the universe Miyu comes from is like an earlier Extra or Notes- the world is dying, and presumably the Dead Apostle Ancestors' ritual is the cause.

Which means it isn't really something science can stop, just prepare for and adapt to.
Of course, in Notes it just means humanity goes transhuman and fucks off into the cosmos.
 
Wow, that's some next level reaching.

That girl is dead. Choosing to kill her yourself instead of waiting for the end of the world as we know it means that you, your friends and family and entire fucking humanity won't die together with her because you wanted to let her see the end for some reason.

Future generations are irrelevant here.
Revlid beat me to quoting Julian so I won't bother repeating why future generations are very much relevant here.

That aside, what kind of dumb logic is that? "That girl is dead"? No, for fuck's sake, she isn't. She's alive and healthy, standing right before you. And you are suggesting that it is right to kill her if that saves the world? That is not a justification, it's an excuse. Excuse for your own weakness, inability to find a better solution or even just accept that you are committing yourself to evil because you want to live a while longer, or for your children to have a shot at life.

But looking at the later posts, at this point, this is becoming not a discussion about a Type-Moon work but rather, a general discourse on ethics and morality, something I'm disinclined to argue due to the sheer amount of time it can take.

So what I'm seeing here is that he's completely ignoring science's ability to find a solution to a problem that is, at it's core, scientific. Instead he's focusing on the inability of magic to do anything when he knows that magic is the one dying out. (I'm including Magic, magecraft, and everything mystical here so don't call me on my semantics.) From what I'm hearing is that he's acting like the usual arrogant clock tower Mage and I feel no guilt in hearing that Shirou is wrecking his plans.
No. In Miyu's world, Gaia is dying. Science as we know it can't do shit about that because Gaia's will is what enforces physical laws. Without it, the world as we know it simply crumbles away and all scientific constants are liable to become unknown variables, if they even retain any kind of meaning. And I won't even delve into the fact that the collapse of Gaia's RM leaves the planet completely unprotected from incursions of Lovecraft-esque eldritch abominations from beyond that are vaguely alluded to in the setting.
 
Actually, the universe Miyu comes from is like an earlier Extra or Notes- the world is dying, and presumably the Dead Apostle Ancestors' ritual is the cause.

Which means it isn't really something science can stop, just prepare for and adapt to.
Ah. Someone said he wanted to stop global warming or some such. Or maybe I just derped on reading comprehension there.
Ilya's colors ARE white and pink like Nanoha's...
Nanoha's outfit is white with blue and gold. I'm pretty sure she never wore pink. Her magic is pink but that's about it.
 
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