We are even going to benefit from it. Since our plan is that the Dual Monarchy will probably implode from the war and that will allow us to basically declare independance.so plenty of places, like Union, shouldn't be directly affected by the war.
We are even going to benefit from it. Since our plan is that the Dual Monarchy will probably implode from the war and that will allow us to basically declare independance.so plenty of places, like Union, shouldn't be directly affected by the war.
As QM, I agree, it would be....disapointing if conflicts were the fruits of conspirations manipulating people.Mmm, from what we seem to see of the supernatural thus far, there's a lot less "ancient immortal conspiracies" going around, and a lot more hives and packs of occult activity and monsters and a mess of people who have sold out to said occult activity for either survival or power and have far more "local" agendas.
There are exceptions to this like the Scholomance, but the Scholomance appears to be tied to a location, or at least a geographical region that's a longstanding hotspot (in fact, I wonder if the Scholomance might be the Balkans' equivalent to the Witch: a powerful practitioner of the Occult aligned with the dark forces but powerful enough to be a Patron in their own right.)
I feel like the 30 Years War will be a lot less ancient conspiracies going around and a lot more packs of ghouls caused by people eating the dead out of desperation, individual necromancers taking advantage of the dead (as seems to have happened during the Black Death), and this or that group within the HRE and/or Dual Monarchy trafficking with dark forces during the war out of a desire to gain an advantage, rather than having already been in bed with them before the war even started.
It feels like it cheapens things if there's ancient conspiracies actively spoking the wheels as the norm. Things like the Great Western Schism and the sheer bloodshed of the 30 Years War ought to have been fuckups because people fucked up, not because some puppetmaster was pulling the strings. Having "the 30 Years War is so bad because there's some rogue Knights Templar going around actively trying to maximize the amount of sin" feels like it's trying to deflect responsibility from all the non-occultist people who chose to do all those things with zero occult influence.
Yes, a somewhat sad story...and one that had different consequences in the QuestFrance.Anything involving the original Knight's Templar does need to have them be immortal (or at least have a long lifespan), since they were completely dissolved 300 years before the story. It is actually sort of sad how it happened.
It is a story of a loss of purpose and betrayal. Their purpose as an order was to fight to fight the enemies of Christianity and secure the Holy Land, but they were unable to hold that land. At the same time, they became one of the largest banking organizations from donations and protecting the money of pilgrims. It turns out that having a bunch of well armed people without purpose and a bunch of money is a bad combination when around paranoid kings.
Philip IV of France pressured Pope Clement V into dissolving the order, which he did. While many Templar where able to join other orders, many where arrested in France on trumped up charges. A lot of accusations of heresy and blasphemy ending with burning at the stake followed. Officially, an investigation by the Church found them to have done no wrongdoing, and Jacques de Molay, the Last Grandmaster, along with the rest of the Templar leadership was absolved of all charges.
Do I think that some of them would be pissed off enough at France to turn against God? Yes. Do I think that most of them would continue doing good in the name of Christ? Also yes. It would be cool to see ex-Templar in a new order hunting down corrupted ex-Templar in a sort of secret war.
The transfer of power from the Catholic Church to the monarchal state is probably one of the most interesting and impactful series of events in RL and Quest. France was sort of the pioneer in it, but the real big events are happening at the time of the quest.Yes, a somewhat sad story...and one that had different consequences in the QuestFrance.
OTL, the fate of the templars is part of the centuries long process of concentrating power in the hands of the french Monarchy, by beginning to align the clergy to the King.
In the QuestWorld, it also began to bound the anti-supernatural Ordrers to the Monarchy, mainly through control of the assets financier them in France.
Then, after the Hundred Years Wars, thoses royally funded Orders were more or less forced to break with the Church when the King's Church was founded.
To be fair, as I recall things were already pretty bad in the Late Ming era; it wasn't a case of "everyone was at peace and thenOh boy, the 30 Years War except worse because the Dual Monarchy is also likely to explode is gonna be fun.
...Come to think of it, the Manchu/Qing are gonna rise in another 7-8 years and kick off that hellwar against the Ming, so it's about to really suck to live in China to.
Yep, and the Templar Blackguards (working title) fall into that final category. They're not a traditional organization, more like a bunch of independent diabolists who share similar motives and abilities. The closest they come to coordinating is when an established Blackguard tells a new arrival to ply their trade elsewhere.Mmm, from what we seem to see of the supernatural thus far, there's a lot less "ancient immortal conspiracies" going around, and a lot more hives and packs of occult activity and monsters and a mess of people who have sold out to said occult activity for either survival or power, but are largely independent of one another.
Agreed, which is why they don't operate at that scale. Never have, never will. They simply increase the warcrimes coefficient for troops that they command and, to a lesser extent, those they fight alongside.It feels like it cheapens things if there's ancient conspiracies actively spoking the wheels as the norm. Things like the Great Western Schism ought to have been fuckups because people fucked up, not because some puppetmaster was pulling the strings and making things worse.
To be fair to Philip IV, no polity, either back then or today, should be comfortable with well-armed and influential groups outside their authority operating within their borders. Those that are comfortable with that situation tend not to last too long as polities. Bonus points for the County of Champagne, where the Templars were headquartered, being ruled by Philip IV's son.It turns out that having a bunch of well armed people without purpose and a bunch of money is a bad combination when around paranoid kings.
I'd add "take credit for those tendencies " and "be scapegoated for those tendencies" to that list. In the former case taking credit for major events is a decent way to garner fear and prestige. My personal headcanon is that just about every wannabe diabolical cabal with any connections to Venice took credit for the disaster of the Fourth Crusade, to the point where it became a cliche.As QM, I agree, it would be....disapointing if conflicts were the fruits of conspirations manipulating people.
Human greed and hatred exist without the supernatural, the supernatural merely use and encourage those viles tendances.
If I may, I would like to respond to your comment with my own attempt to clarify certain potential issues.I also just don't think the organization as you've described them would have the institutional capacity to last for as long as you seem to have them doing while retaining any sort of coherency.
Judging by the example of the Witch, I feel you'd have at most, a knight/diabolist with the actually correct origins and a bunch of unrelated people putting on airs (and maybe the occasional apprentice who catches his eye.) This seems to fit with our limited perspective on powerful diabolists: They're either individuals of extreme power like the Witch, Dracula, Tamurkhan (and those latter two may not even be in the same category as the former), or in the rare cases where they are institutions like the Scholomance, they seem to take a more scholarly bent, because actually going out and actively fucking with things has a strong possibility that those things start fucking with you to fatal results.
That more scholarly (or religious) mantle where the priority is gaining and retaining knowledge is something I feel is essential for a group trafficking in something as fundamentally unstable as the occult can actually maintain enough coherency that you can keep calling it by the same name. Because otherwise the elders and wise die off too quickly (if not to enemy action, then each other or their own fuckups) to properly indoctrinate their acolytes and disciples and the group as a whole rapidly loses institutional strength and coherency until it's just a bunch of individuals who at one point wore similar clothes. And at that point it feels ridiculous to even group them under the same title unless it's specifically talking about the past tense.
Like, something about the base concept of the Templar Blackguards as you've described them just rubs me the wrong way in "that's really not how an occult group should work..."
Hmm, maybe I should write up another effortpost on my conception of the different hostile occult forces based on Union's own encounters and what we know of the wider world.
Yeah, I'm starting to see that pure vengeance upon everyone remotely connected to their fall doesn't serve shadowy immortal warrior-diabolists too well as a motive in terms of narrative. If I go through with this idea, I'll likely rework them into undead revenants. Such monomania is well within their wheelhouse, and it would likely fit their ability set better as well. I'd like to hear the thread's thoughts on the matter though.My problem with the Blackguard in its current form is motivation. Any organized group needs to have an ideology or goal that gets them to work together and attracts people to them. Causing chaos, conflict, and sin are more of means to an end, byproduct, or personal goal.
Also, they would need to figure out some sort of uniform that isn't mostly black. The Knights Hospitaller already have that covered.
Yes, undead would be better.Yeah, I'm starting to see that pure vengeance upon everyone remotely connected to their fall doesn't serve shadowy immortal warrior-diabolists too well as a motive in terms of narrative. If I go through with this idea, I'll likely rework them into undead revenants. Such monomania is well within their wheelhouse, and it would likely fit their ability set better as well. I'd like to hear the thread's thoughts on the matter though.
Yeah, I'm starting to see that pure vengeance upon everyone remotely connected to their fall doesn't serve shadowy immortal warrior-diabolists too well as a motive in terms of narrative. If I go through with this idea, I'll likely rework them into undead revenants. Such monomania is well within their wheelhouse, and it would likely fit their ability set better as well. I'd like to hear the thread's thoughts on the matter though.
Alright, I'm going to make a pitch for you. The righteous knights returned from the dead to enact their vengeance against those that wronged them for accusing them of heresy, killing them, and denying them a Christian burial. It goes well with the legend of Jacques de Molay, the Last Grandmaster, cursing Philip IV and his descendants while on his pyre.Yes, undead would be better.
Perhap evil ghosts possesing people, their minds slowly crumbling from years of parasitic unlife.
It's been about 300 years since the Templars were disbanded. At this point I doubt there will be anything except hatred and a need to corrupt left. Or at least that's what I'll probably be aiming for.Yes, undead would be better.
Perhap evil ghosts possesing people, their minds slowly crumbling from years of parasitic unlife.
Eh, even if the story of Molay's death curse is true in-universe, it was obviously effective enough that it wouldn't need any help from the unquiet dead. Plus, I really want to emphasize that the vast majority of Templars remained loyal even in the face of certain death. As is, I'll probably need to use the guys who turned traitor to bulk up the numbers.Alright, I'm going to make a pitch for you. The righteous knights returned from the dead to enact their vengeance against those that wronged them for accusing them of heresy, killing them, and denying them a Christian burial. It goes well with the legend of Jacques de Molay, the Last Grandmaster, cursing Philip IV and his descendants while on his pyre.
Spread them out across Europe if you want, since there was some executions or imprisonments till death in England, Scotland, Ireland, Cyprus, Germany, Spain, and Portugal. You can even have a variety of undead from the method of execution. Blackened skeletons still burning from the pyre, ash-like spirits, headless riders, ghouls that were starved to death in dungeons, and unearthed wights from those seeking to defile their corpse.
Order of Simon : See, this is why all occult knowledge must be carrefully controled !Collected Warnings Regarding Bringers of Temptation (False Angel's Feather excerpt)
By Alexandre Bladworth
Annotated by L
The False Angel's Feather
L: Themis's Vengeance, or sometimes Justitia's Purifier, but I can't blame him for getting the details wrong here. Just writing about this at all is impressive given Alexandre's history.
This vile relic appears at first glance to a feather made of otherworldly bronze, usually found within the pages of a philosophical tome as a bookmark. However, do not be fooled, for this feather is in truth a demonic construct which has brought low the souls of many promising academics.
L: Actually, Themis's Vengeance isn't the feather, but rather the tome it supposedly hidden within. The feather is merely an illusion that allows the book to work its dark magic upon its victim from a distance. Naturally, one of the first things that the Purifier makes its puppet do is to "lose" it without realizing it. That way, it can continue to do its vile work.
At first the Feather appears far from unholy. Whoever is unfortunate enough to touch it gets visited by a beautiful woman with an angelic seeming. They are told their wisdom and respect for history has not gone unnoticed. They have been chosen to rid the land of threats to civilization.
L: The construct isn't technically lying, at least not from the viewpoint of those who created it. Unfortunately, it's creators were a cabal of extremist Greco-Roman pagans who would consider everyone born in the last millennium to be subhuman barbarians to be converted if possible and slaughtered if not.
During the first phase subject is granted great skill with arms to slay their targets and rhetoric to convince others to join them. Thus, the victim can gain a notable following with a fair amount of speed, aided by the fact that the early targets are all individuals whose deaths are well deserved that would not have been found without the Feather. Bandits, murderers, diabolists, and other such scum make for easy targets morally, and their surviving victims make for easy recruits.
L: Bladworth is speaking from personal experience here. Early on during his time in Oxford, he fell into the orbit of one John Summers. Summers was by all accounts a kind and intelligent young man with a bright future ahead of him. Alas, he came across Themis's Vengeance, and that bright future went up in smoke. As such, this information is all too accurate.
In the second phase of corruption, the victim's cult (not the best word to describe what happens, but it will suffice) expands even more swiftly beyond his immediate social circle. Members become increasingly fanatical, and the group's targets become increasingly less "acceptable". It is at this point where the nascent cult is most vulnerable. Should the primary victim undergo an exorcism, all victims will return to normal, save for some horrific nightmares during the following few months.
L: This is where Bladworth stops speaking from personal experience. His father fell victim to either a curse or a serious illness (depending upon who you ask) and Alexandre had to return home to be with him, which fortunately broke the Purifier's hold. Despite this, Alexandre is again correct in his assertions.
The third phase is when matters become truly bloody At this point the brainwashed are no longer capable of civilized speech, speaking some unknowable tongue, save for certain individuals in leadership positions. They now forcibly recruit prospective members, and if any individuals who are not prospects cross their paths, they are slain immediately. Should any prospects refuse the ultimatum, they will be slowly tortured to death for all to see so as to discourage others from making the same choice.
L: The tongue is actually a form of Ancient Greek, but the dialect in question was lost to history long ago. As such, no communication can be made at this point in time. The brutality described however, is far too accurate. Alexandre arrived back at Oxford just in time to witness this stage. Only thing he neglected to mention was that the cult usually takes over a church as a base and desecrates it with pagan imagery.
Finally, the fourth phase occurs when the leader is captured or slain. The victims, including the leader should be still be alive, will attempt to take their own lives. The Feather is a sore loser, and will grant the victims incredible determination with which to do so, with almost no victims surviving long enough to be exorcised. Those few individuals who have been prevented from taking their own lives speak of feeling of incredible despair, one that is beyond the capacity of human language to express
L: I shall now quote from the writings of Professor Edmund Burke, another one of the survivors:
Burke: It was at this point a great wail of despair came from the cultists, the likes of which I have never heard before or since. They then proceeded to end their own lives with the nearest available implement. Even poor Eric Brown, whom we had captured and bound so he could be exorcised, ended his life via biting off his tongue and drowning in his own blood.
Burke: The soldiers guarding us then volunteered to go to the desecrated church the blackguards had been using as a base. I came with, in the hopes that my wisdom could detect occult traps that they could not. As we approached we saw more and more corpses of those unjustly slain, either by their own hand or another's, but it was only a preamble for what was to come.
Burke: When we arrived at the church, now bedecked in pagan imagery, we saw yet more corpses and heard the sound of a man sobbing profusely inside. Within, young Bladworth was cradling John Summers' corpse. I took the blade, still coated in the blood of his boon companion, lest Alexandre do something regrettable, and comforted him the best I could. In my youth I celebrated surviving occult dangers, but not this one. Never one like this.
AN: The Templar omake is kicking my ass, so here's another one I've been working on for a while. It was originally the companion to the Soulthief Blades omake, but it also grew to the point where I felt it best to make it its own omake. @OldShadow, I'll save my question for later, assuming this is acceptable to you.
Ironic, seeing as how I figured that the loss of said control during the Enlightenment period would be the main reason why the Purifier was destroyed. Secret societies discussing forbidden knowledge was very much "in" during said period, especially amongst academics*. Said increase in occult knowledge means that the target demographic can better identify the warning signs, which results in a huge loss of effectiveness and eventually the Purifier's destruction at the hands of a secret society member who the Purifier makes the mistake of targeting.Order of Simon : See, this is why all occult knowledge must be carrefully controled !
TBH once the Simonites find out about the Forceful Reciprocity, I can see two reactions:Order of Simon : See, this is why all occult knowledge must be carrefully controled !
Forceful Reciprocity is the main occult art of the Tribute-Takers, and it's built around what can best be described as corrupted gift-giving. They "gift" something to someone else, which creates a metaphysical "debt" that the other now owes them that they can exploit. From there, they can extend that debt to be owed not just by the individual person, but other people who are connected to the first, up to and including the entire community that person belongs to.Remind me again what is meant by 'Forceful Reciprocity?' Is that the thing the Tribute-Takers do?
Beetween work and other issues, I do not have the time and energy to write.After waiting a while I feel safe to ask now. So OldShadow how is the next post coming along?
Thank youIt comes along as it comes along. It's rude to push a QM on how long it'll be until the next update.
Although, while the post has already been made and attention is here, I think there is a slight error where the most recent omake has been put in Threadmarks instead of Sidestories.
Apologies. I just didn't want feel left in the dark entirely. I know how long these types of quest take to make. All just wanted to know was a tad bit of info. I hope you understand and hope you the best you creative genius. (This was the first quest I ever red so hope you understand)Thank you
And yes, I write in my free times, I do not want more deadlines and stress, this time from quest writing.
They can be tamed, defeated and/or bound, but I would say they have the rights capacities to crush modern America, simply by using its flaws (poverty, violence, divisions...) as levers.Hey I have a question? How strong are the Malevolent Forces in America. Are they able to crush modern America strong or can they be tamed?