The Voyage Without
- Thread starter Hiver
- Start date
- Location
- Washington, USA
But it's also directly described to "not help anyone".
Yes, and both of those things are inconsistent with not just each other but the rest of the description as well.
Unsolved maths theorem: it's possible to find the prime factors of a number without brute force.
Device: correct, it's possible.
That could be interpreted as solving the theorem, but still being useless as it doesn't explain how. If he tries to calculate the prime factors of a number it tells him what they are.
Device: correct, it's possible.
That could be interpreted as solving the theorem, but still being useless as it doesn't explain how. If he tries to calculate the prime factors of a number it tells him what they are.
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I do not believe such a phrasing would be remotely appropriate. "Solving a theorem" is not used that way.
Crazael
Rehydrated Demon King
- Location
- Lost to the vagaries of time.
Personally, given the context of what we've seen from it, it just gives him the correct answer. So for the unsolved proofs, it went something like "X=23" but doesn't tell him anything about how to get that result.
It's the correct answer, but it doesn't help anyone because he has no idea how to get to that result.
It's the correct answer, but it doesn't help anyone because he has no idea how to get to that result.
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44
I only kept half an eye at the meeting, keeping Huginn's viewpoint at a corner of my visor as the rest of the senior crew discussed diverting course to investigate a proto star system.
Instead I was focusing on the pretty simple math problem before me.
1782x89
158598
I sighed and wiped the screen. Damn it. The answer came automatically. What's worse, it didn't pop into my vision or get shoved into my mind or anything external. I just looked at it and knew what the answer was.
Which made it insanely hard to ignore.
What I was trying to do was to find an off switch. Yes, knowing the solution was useful, but knowing how I get there is often just as important, if not more so!
Alright.
Listen here you stupid piece of ancient crap. Do not give me the answer for the next calculation.
Got it?
198x33
6534
Damn it!
"Mister Zephyr, what do you think?" Janeway asked,
I called the view to fill mine and I shook my head, Huginn copying my movement, "Sure. Why not. Let's divert course and check out every random anomaly. I'm not the one that already risks dying of old age before we reach the alpha quadrant."
Silence.
"...Apologies," I said after a moment, "That came out harsher than I intended."
"Not that you don't have a point, Lieutenant," Chakotay said from the comm screen on the wall, "Can we really afford to divert course for anything but useful resources?"
Janeway looked thoughtful for several long moments before she spoke, "Our situation is a unique one for many reasons. But in the end, we're still Starfleet. Our original mission has always been to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations. We have our own mission, our own goal of reaching home. But I think we also have a duty to the Federation, to Starfleet to explore what we can on the way. We're the first ship in this sector of space, who knows what can be found. Perhaps even something to aid our journey."
"We're not Starfleet," Chakotay said and shook his head, "But in this case, the system is only half a day out of our course. And we might as well use the time to fill up our deuterium tanks."
"Plenty of that in a proto-star system," Paris agreed.
Janeway nodded, "Set a course, Mister Paris. Dismissed."
Everyone got up and started to leave. I had Huginn remain and Janeway paused as the door closed after Dinah who glanced back into the meeting room before disappearing out of view.
"My apologies, Captain," I said, "You're correct, we should take advantage of our situation while we can."
Janeway leaned slightly against the table, her arms crossed as she watched my drone, "Are you feeling alright, Lieutenant?"
"Just frustrated, Captain. Trying to get the stupid thing in my head to do what I want it to and it's not cooperating. I should not allow it to interfere."
She nodded, "We still don't know what it does. What are you trying to make it do?"
"Not tell me answers to any math problem I see, or at least tell me how it got there," I admitted, "Without knowing how it got there, the answer itself is often useless. So far, it's not cooperating."
The Captain nodded and then hesitated slightly, "I had been meaning to talk to you, Lieutenant," she said after a moment, "Commander Tuvok brought to my attention that he has gotten several complaints about you."
I stared at her in surprise through Huginn before I nodded, "I have been irritable lately… and I know I have been getting worse," I admitted. It was likely Paris, "I will do better."
She shook her head, "While I don't doubt people would appreciate it if you were less so, it's understandable. The complaints are regarding your treatment of the Doctor."
Divide by zero.
"What?" I asked after a second. What doctor, all the medical staff were dead.
"The complaints state that you treat the Doctor like a machine," Janeway said before raising a hand before I could answer, "I know he's an hologram."
"It is a machine," I protested, "It's literally a database managed by a self referential generative algorithm and a personality overlay matrix. Other than the information he's loaded with and the medical subroutines, it's identical to... I don't know, Orion Pirate Mook number three on the holodeck!"
Janeway just shook her head, "I know what an EMH is," she sighed, "Just... be politer."
I sighed, "...Yes, Captain. What else, protests outside my quarters when I wipe the storage of my drones to install a new software version? They use the same technology. A murder trial next time somebody shoots a hologram on the holodeck?"
She shook her head, "Just be more polite to the Doctor. Especially during off hours."
"It should be off during its off hours! Every minute it's online is one minute less it can be useful later!"
"He."
I growled. This is so damn stupid, next thing people will be thanking doors for opening for them, "Humans anthropomorphize things way too easily. It's an algorithm and a database. If it looked like a floating ball of steel tentacles ending in instruments we would not be having this conversation."
Janeway looked thoughtful, "Maybe. Maybe not. I have seen studies where people give their cleaning robots names and would rather have them fixed than a new one if the old one is damaged."
"Just because it looks like you and talks like you and seems to think it does not make it a person," I grumbled, "And playing along with the delusions will not do any of you any favors, sir. Sooner or later the EMH will need to be disabled or have its storage wiped to prevent matrix degradation. It will be reset back to standard operating parameters at least once a year or it will start to break down in three or so at most at current rate of usage. Less if it keeps being left on."
"Just... go along with it, Lieutenant. It's not just one person thats complained," Janeway said, sounding tired.
This is so damn stupid.
"Yes, sir," I answered anyway. She was the captain. Now I likely won't be allowed try to reprogram the damn thing either.
Damn primates packbonding to everything that moves and some that don't.
Instead I was focusing on the pretty simple math problem before me.
1782x89
158598
I sighed and wiped the screen. Damn it. The answer came automatically. What's worse, it didn't pop into my vision or get shoved into my mind or anything external. I just looked at it and knew what the answer was.
Which made it insanely hard to ignore.
What I was trying to do was to find an off switch. Yes, knowing the solution was useful, but knowing how I get there is often just as important, if not more so!
Alright.
Listen here you stupid piece of ancient crap. Do not give me the answer for the next calculation.
Got it?
198x33
6534
Damn it!
"Mister Zephyr, what do you think?" Janeway asked,
I called the view to fill mine and I shook my head, Huginn copying my movement, "Sure. Why not. Let's divert course and check out every random anomaly. I'm not the one that already risks dying of old age before we reach the alpha quadrant."
Silence.
"...Apologies," I said after a moment, "That came out harsher than I intended."
"Not that you don't have a point, Lieutenant," Chakotay said from the comm screen on the wall, "Can we really afford to divert course for anything but useful resources?"
Janeway looked thoughtful for several long moments before she spoke, "Our situation is a unique one for many reasons. But in the end, we're still Starfleet. Our original mission has always been to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations. We have our own mission, our own goal of reaching home. But I think we also have a duty to the Federation, to Starfleet to explore what we can on the way. We're the first ship in this sector of space, who knows what can be found. Perhaps even something to aid our journey."
"We're not Starfleet," Chakotay said and shook his head, "But in this case, the system is only half a day out of our course. And we might as well use the time to fill up our deuterium tanks."
"Plenty of that in a proto-star system," Paris agreed.
Janeway nodded, "Set a course, Mister Paris. Dismissed."
Everyone got up and started to leave. I had Huginn remain and Janeway paused as the door closed after Dinah who glanced back into the meeting room before disappearing out of view.
"My apologies, Captain," I said, "You're correct, we should take advantage of our situation while we can."
Janeway leaned slightly against the table, her arms crossed as she watched my drone, "Are you feeling alright, Lieutenant?"
"Just frustrated, Captain. Trying to get the stupid thing in my head to do what I want it to and it's not cooperating. I should not allow it to interfere."
She nodded, "We still don't know what it does. What are you trying to make it do?"
"Not tell me answers to any math problem I see, or at least tell me how it got there," I admitted, "Without knowing how it got there, the answer itself is often useless. So far, it's not cooperating."
The Captain nodded and then hesitated slightly, "I had been meaning to talk to you, Lieutenant," she said after a moment, "Commander Tuvok brought to my attention that he has gotten several complaints about you."
I stared at her in surprise through Huginn before I nodded, "I have been irritable lately… and I know I have been getting worse," I admitted. It was likely Paris, "I will do better."
She shook her head, "While I don't doubt people would appreciate it if you were less so, it's understandable. The complaints are regarding your treatment of the Doctor."
Divide by zero.
"What?" I asked after a second. What doctor, all the medical staff were dead.
"The complaints state that you treat the Doctor like a machine," Janeway said before raising a hand before I could answer, "I know he's an hologram."
"It is a machine," I protested, "It's literally a database managed by a self referential generative algorithm and a personality overlay matrix. Other than the information he's loaded with and the medical subroutines, it's identical to... I don't know, Orion Pirate Mook number three on the holodeck!"
Janeway just shook her head, "I know what an EMH is," she sighed, "Just... be politer."
I sighed, "...Yes, Captain. What else, protests outside my quarters when I wipe the storage of my drones to install a new software version? They use the same technology. A murder trial next time somebody shoots a hologram on the holodeck?"
She shook her head, "Just be more polite to the Doctor. Especially during off hours."
"It should be off during its off hours! Every minute it's online is one minute less it can be useful later!"
"He."
I growled. This is so damn stupid, next thing people will be thanking doors for opening for them, "Humans anthropomorphize things way too easily. It's an algorithm and a database. If it looked like a floating ball of steel tentacles ending in instruments we would not be having this conversation."
Janeway looked thoughtful, "Maybe. Maybe not. I have seen studies where people give their cleaning robots names and would rather have them fixed than a new one if the old one is damaged."
"Just because it looks like you and talks like you and seems to think it does not make it a person," I grumbled, "And playing along with the delusions will not do any of you any favors, sir. Sooner or later the EMH will need to be disabled or have its storage wiped to prevent matrix degradation. It will be reset back to standard operating parameters at least once a year or it will start to break down in three or so at most at current rate of usage. Less if it keeps being left on."
"Just... go along with it, Lieutenant. It's not just one person thats complained," Janeway said, sounding tired.
This is so damn stupid.
"Yes, sir," I answered anyway. She was the captain. Now I likely won't be allowed try to reprogram the damn thing either.
Damn primates packbonding to everything that moves and some that don't.
Yeah, that works for an equation, though it's frankly not true that that doesn't help anyone. Solving equations because you need the solution is a very, very common situation!
The problem is there isn't something like "X=23" that could be termed the "solution" to a "proof".
Note: A significant fraction of the monkeys are horny at any given time...meh if ya think bonding with items is bad my dragon just you want till those monkeys get horny
Crazael
Rehydrated Demon King
- Location
- Lost to the vagaries of time.
First of all, what isn't helpful is when he gets something he shouldn't be able to answer, but gets one anyway and can't explain how he got it, because that means that other people can't use the same procedure to get answers to similar problems. For some stuff, sure, just getting the solution to the equation is fine. But that's not what he's complaining about.
Second, my example of "X=23" was me pulling something out of my ass because I am not good at math and just wanted something to serve as an example of the problem he is having. He is being given the solution to math questions he is looking at, but not told how to get there. Which is not useful because the part he wants is the how, not the result. Because 90% of learning math is learning how to do it, not just memorizing the correct answers.
Alright, with that kind of foreshadowing, I can only assume that something will happen at some point in the near future that will make Zephyr and the EMH best buddies for life.
After all, the one most likely to still be around in 1000 years to reminisce with actually is the EMH. Everybody else will be dust, one way or another.
After all, the one most likely to still be around in 1000 years to reminisce with actually is the EMH. Everybody else will be dust, one way or another.
- Location
- England
Is this like the Transporters not being a thing, or are you of the opinion that the Voyager EMH was never more than fancy ChatGPT? Considering the amount of ridiculous things encountered in Star Trek it seems remarkably close-minded of Zephyr to rule out the Doctor ever pulling a Pinocchio. I mean, Wesley can't go a season without accidentally creating sentient life. *cough*nanites*cough*.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Honestly when Zephyr starts seeing the EMH as a person he's likely to scream internally... or maybe externally... that yet again someone has managed to accidentally make sapient machines in a way he can't look at.
I think the problem comes about because where does the distinction lie, between something sapient and something not? Zephyr actually researches these things, so he knows the guts of it and that attempts to make a sapient hologram previously have failed. He likely doesn't know about the enterprise incident.
On the other hand that doesn't mean the EMH isn't going to evolve beyond the original programming anyway. He has some adaptive skills and this situation is utterly unique, and the fact the EMH isn't failing when confronted with this situation means it is adapting.
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WeirdRatThing
Contains Red Dye 40
- Pronouns
- He/They
Well, as someone who's only really versed in Star Trek's supposed cliches, I can only see this ending in one of two ways:
- Zeph's life is saved after he and the EMH are effectively locked in a closet together, causing him to alter his perception of the chatbot.
- It's one of those episodes that show that, no matter what you do, sometimes you won't change someone's mind.
So, the two problems are: first, as I said, there simply is nothing analogous to just getting back a number for proofs. And second, Zephyr is not a math student! Zephyr's thing could sometimes be a bit of a handicap for learning math, but for an engineer who applies math? It's just great.
Zephyr has perfectly understandable reasons to be unhappy about a getting brainhacked like this, but the ability is actually pretty excellent.
(Also there's no reason he can't use it to do solve formulas with variables in as opposed to fully constrained ones.)
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
There's also the possibility that the doctor is the one to figure out how Zephyr's stupid mental interface works, and does so in a way he should not be capable of to Zephyr's knowledge.
Nitronorm5688
The Armchair Reader
- Location
- Oakdale, CT
I think the Smart Matter Brain Stuff (SMBS) might be on a timer, or it might need certain conditions to advance.
I get the feeling that this thing is supposed to be installed when a dragon is much younger than Zephyr. But he's an adult, or at least we're treating him as one. A calculator stuck in tutorial mode isn't going to help him much. And if that is the case, I'm pretty sure the implant isn't going to advance itself just because he asked. There's probably a program set to prevent new users from messing with the smart matter until it passes all the tests, and maybe not even then.
Maybe if Zephyr actually puts himself into a classroom setting it would allow him to advance, I don't know. It probably can see and here, but can't advance unless conditions are met.
If this is the case, than whoever built the thing had way different ideas about education. It might be a pure upload of information, which makes actually learning how to do a math problem redundant. He could wake up one day just knowing how to show his work. And it won't unpack the next program until next month no matter what he does.
If Zephyr uses his psychic powers to fly or breath fire, that might set it off. If he actually needs his psychic power to interact with the device he might be stunted. Without an 'adult' to show him how the buttons to control the thing might be right on his forehead and he wouldn't know.
I mean, all he might need to do is literally touch his ear and mouth at the same time to open the menu. And if that were the case, than outside of Q with an instruction manual or pure dumb luck, he'll never be able to use the thing properly.
I get the feeling that this thing is supposed to be installed when a dragon is much younger than Zephyr. But he's an adult, or at least we're treating him as one. A calculator stuck in tutorial mode isn't going to help him much. And if that is the case, I'm pretty sure the implant isn't going to advance itself just because he asked. There's probably a program set to prevent new users from messing with the smart matter until it passes all the tests, and maybe not even then.
Maybe if Zephyr actually puts himself into a classroom setting it would allow him to advance, I don't know. It probably can see and here, but can't advance unless conditions are met.
If this is the case, than whoever built the thing had way different ideas about education. It might be a pure upload of information, which makes actually learning how to do a math problem redundant. He could wake up one day just knowing how to show his work. And it won't unpack the next program until next month no matter what he does.
If Zephyr uses his psychic powers to fly or breath fire, that might set it off. If he actually needs his psychic power to interact with the device he might be stunted. Without an 'adult' to show him how the buttons to control the thing might be right on his forehead and he wouldn't know.
I mean, all he might need to do is literally touch his ear and mouth at the same time to open the menu. And if that were the case, than outside of Q with an instruction manual or pure dumb luck, he'll never be able to use the thing properly.
- Location
- USA
Classic Janeway hypocrisy
Were a science vessel, let's all go look at weird stuff For Science!!
People are complaining that you're treating a machine like a machine, we have a few options.
We could tell them this is a science vessel and that they are, nominally, scientists and should learn more about what they are complaining about or we could have you adjust your behavior.
Let's do the second one. That seems better.
Were a science vessel, let's all go look at weird stuff For Science!!
People are complaining that you're treating a machine like a machine, we have a few options.
We could tell them this is a science vessel and that they are, nominally, scientists and should learn more about what they are complaining about or we could have you adjust your behavior.
Let's do the second one. That seems better.
- Location
- Elsewhere
But he isn't yet.
Should he treat the holodeck holograms like people because they might pull a Pinocchio?
I am frankly sure that many of those complaining do in fact know that the EMH program is not sapient, they just treat is as sapient because doing otherwise makes them feel bad, plus even one person who doesn't know better makes the ones who do know better feel guilty due to empathy. Logic and knowledge have nothing to do with their emotions, fizzy hormones don't care.
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- Location
- United States of America
It's really not. The EMH has a useful lifespan of just a few years before the matrix would, theoretically, corrupt itself and cause the program to permanently crash. This lifespan is extended by having the EMH turned off when not in use, and refactoring the matrix (resetting to base and clearing all memory) once a year. But as far as Zeph knows, the staff are misusing a piece of critical infrastructure and drastically reducing its long-term viability for no reason better than 'muh feelins' and 'don't be mean to the robit' when said 'robit' isn't actually sentient (yet), just acts like it for bedside manner purposes.
I still think time travel is in the equation.
Anyways I think the computer that is in his head is malfunctioning. It's so old I would not be surprised if something got knocked around or a system failed.
I wounder if our doctor is going to remove it a bit?
Anyways I think the computer that is in his head is malfunctioning. It's so old I would not be surprised if something got knocked around or a system failed.
I wounder if our doctor is going to remove it a bit?
So honestly that's incorrect. I had a friend who was studying for his masters in Mathematics, and anyone who is creating proofs would absolutely love the correct answer without any explanation on how it gets there.
It is far far easier to solve an equation or proof if you know the answer already and can work backwards and forwards to fit them together.
Heck I took a class on interplanetary physics, and I would have loved the answer and only needed to prove how it's right. That's like 1 page of writing and solving vs 4 pages.
Either way it sounds like one of those fancy calculators you aren't allowed to use in school. You know the one you type in the equation and it tells you the answer.
Differential Equation Calculator - eMathHelp
The calculator will try to find the solution of the given ODE: first-order, second-order, nth-order, separable, linear, exact, Bernoulli, homogeneous, or
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