The Voyage Without

Yeah, there might be a "becoming best buddies" episode on the horizon... OTOH, if complaints continue, I can see Zephyr escalating from draconic passive-aggressiveness to (in his view) teaching a lesson by glueing some goggly eyes as well as a foam knife to a cleaning drone and programming it to run into any crewmembers encountered on its cleaning rounds; then file a complaint when people mistreat his "pet".

I wounder if our doctor is going to remove it a bit?
He already tried to collect samples using every (medical) tool available on Voyager and failed to cut it.
Besides, it is coating his every neuron and without transporters in this AU, that would be a fatally invasive procedure.
 
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Heck I took a class on interplanetary physics, and I would have loved the answer and only needed to prove how it's right. That's like 1 page of writing and solving vs 4 pages.

Either way it sounds like one of those fancy calculators you aren't allowed to use in school. You know the one you type in the equation and it tells you the answer.
I think the problem is that without the intervening steps he can't be sure if the answer is correct in a timely manner. He's the chief engineer and works with advanced calculations all the time where if they're just slightly off it could damage or impair the functionality of the ship. The worry is that the thing might give him the wrong answer and if he just blindly trusts it and uses that answer he could mess up a lot of things. It might even be the case where it gives him the correct answer, but the Federation was actually doing it wrong and as such all their calibrations and such assume that the wrong answer is correct, so changing things causes machinery to break.

The point is basically, he can't verify the answers in a timely manner, so working with equipment that relies on those answers being 100% correct, by Federation math, is problematic if the machine has a different understanding of math or just gives the wrong answer at the wrong time due to glitch or interference.
 
I understand that, for some specific problems, the actual steps might hold the solution you are looking for- but that's just a matter of breaking the problem down into smaller chunks and them looking at what you get.

Because sure, you might literally not know the mathematics which lead from equation 1 to equation 2 in a 5-step solution, but if you know the answer of the intermediate steps, that's just a matter of walking things backwards.

Which is all fun and games if you objective is writing a book on advanced mathematics, but for an engineer? This is a hell of a boon.

Because this goes much, much harder for physics problems, because you derive a lot of meaning just from the sign convention alone, but also the actual units involved. Anything really, can give you a lot of valuable information in a physics problem.

For real advanced math, just knowing if a solution exists is a ridiculous boon.

This is all, of course, depending on the premise of trusting the thing is 100% right. Which is either very easy or very hard to do, depending on your point of view.

Knowing how the math works is important, extremely important even, but he does have a massive understanding of things already.
 
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Well, as someone who's only really versed in Star Trek's supposed cliches, I can only see this ending in one of two ways:
  1. Zeph's life is saved after he and the EMH are effectively locked in a closet together, causing him to alter his perception of the chatbot.
  2. It's one of those episodes that show that, no matter what you do, sometimes you won't change someone's mind.
I wonder if, perhaps, the solution might come from a different corner.

See, the problem with (1), for Zephyr, is that it's a "pack bonding" experience – exactly the sort of psychological leap that (with his non-pack-animal draconic psychology) he now finds himself unable to empathize with.

No, I think the brick drop for Zephyr is going to come from the opposite direction: from the black-box (gold-box?) equation solver that he's struggling to understand. It's clearly doing math at levels beyond Federation knowledge, and it's possible that such an advanced civilization had a working understanding of Volokhov theory (i.e. mathematically describing artificial minds in a way that accounts for conscious thought), especially in the world of TNG-era Star Trek, where we've heard quite often (c.f. the Traveller, c.f. Benjamin "Why Do You Exist Here" Sisko...) that spacetime has a psychological component.

So Zephyr, frustrated beyond belief at the crew's anthropomorphization of the EMH, decides to audit the Doctor's self-modified personality subroutines himself, and discovers, to his shock, that the golden calculator responds to "does this system of equations describe a sentient being" with "yes". The A-plot and B-plot of the episode gracefully merge, and Zeph gets his personal "There Is No Algorithm For Truth" moment as he has to decide what this means.
 
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After all, the one most likely to still be around in 1000 years to reminisce with actually is the EMH. Everybody else will be dust, one way or another.
actually the EMH is highly unlikely to be around in 10 years let alone 1000. It's an Emergency Medical Hologram, it's not designed to run that much. Even in Voyager at one point he started breaking down from overuse. They fixed him by using parts of a diagnostic/repair program built specifically for the EMH (same programmer). If he had broken down again, they would have been SOL.

or are you of the opinion that the Voyager EMH was never more than fancy ChatGPT? Considering the amount of ridiculous things encountered in Star Trek it seems remarkably close-minded of Zephyr to rule out the Doctor ever pulling a Pinocchio
Don' confuse the character's thoughts with the author's

(as suggested by someone on SB) Part of Zephyr's issue with treating the EMH as a person is that he's fully aware that even with minimal use (the Dragon glares at people who keep leaving the EMH on) it'll probably break down in a few years. The software is black boxed, Zephyr's ability to fix any problems is quite limited.

And much of what he can do to extend the run time involves annually resetting the program and wiping non medical memory, effectively killing whatever 'personhood' the EMH has developed. I wouldn't want to think about something as a person that I knew I was going to have to put down (over and over again)
 
Okay, but, like, he's right though?

From how he's describing it the EMH was never designed to be sapient, just to mimic sapience. At least that's the opinion of the AI specialist on the crew, which I'm inclined to lend more credence than the opinion of the average crewmember(and also author fiat counts for a lot).

Given it's Star Trek, it could easily surpass that I suppose(no matter how nonsensical it is) but realistically until you're absolutely certain that an AI actually has emotions and isn't just calculating how a human would respond to a situation, you're just encouraging parasocial relationships of the worst sort by letting people believe that they're interacting with a person rather than a machine. This isn't Data where he's designed from the ground up to be a person, rather than a program that pretends to be a person.
 
actually the EMH is highly unlikely to be around in 10 years let alone 1000. It's an Emergency Medical Hologram, it's not designed to run that much. Even in Voyager at one point he started breaking down from overuse. They fixed him by using parts of a diagnostic/repair program built specifically for the EMH (same programmer). If he had broken down again, they would have been SOL.

I was going off of what happened during the show, and I have no reason to assume the EMH couldn't be, well, jailbroken to facilitate a longer lifespan the same way they did there. As such, knowing even the longest-lived Vulcan will have kicked the bucket for certain within a few centuries even with the best Federation science can legally offer, and knowing the EMH can be made to run effectively indefinitely, means the only crew member with any likelihood to survive for 1000 years besides Zephyr is it.
 
Don' confuse the character's thoughts with the author's
I wasn't. The question was to the author, because the author has already established that some things work differently in this fic (i.e. transporters). If it is AU in that aspect, then we can take Zephyr's opinion as likely accurate. But if it isn't AU then it's odd because there is prior precedent for out-breaks of sapience/sentience in holograms and computers.

Also we 'know' stuff that he doesn't, namely that the EMH doctor did reach sentience* in Star Trek Voyager. Now, we can't blame Zephyr for not knowing stuff that hasn't happened yet, but if the situation is as he describes it then that future should have been impossible or next to it, which brings us back to the EMH workings being different in this AU fic or Zephyr being close-minded on the subject.

* You can argue that point, but such arguments would have to include various post Voyager Star Trek content being 'non-canon'.
 
and knowing the EMH can be made to run effectively indefinitely, means the only crew member with any likelihood to survive for 1000 years besides Zephyr is it.
But Zephyr DOESN'T know that. He can't even get a good look at the EMH software so how can he be expected to realize it's possible for the Doctor to become Sophont?

And part of the Doctor being able to run indefinitely, IIRC, was Voyager acquiring the mobile emitter, which was from a few centuries further in the future and had far more 'space' for him to grow.

I wasn't. The question was to the author, because the author has already established that some things work differently in this fic (i.e. transporters). If it is AU in that aspect, then we can take Zephyr's opinion as likely accurate. But if it isn't AU then it's odd because there is prior precedent for out-breaks of sapience/sentience in holograms and computers.
Fair points.
 
"Captain, please remember that if the EMHis a person, then I'm the one who has to kill them. Over and over and over again. As someone who used to live in a less technologically advanced society without replicators, I advise you never to name that which you intend to kill later."
 
Janeway looked thoughtful, "Maybe. Maybe not. I have seen studies where people give their cleaning robots names and would rather have them fixed than a new one if the old one is damaged."

literally true as well. I saw (as have most of you probably) a bit about this, one of which was a bomb disposal robot that got blown up and the distraught tech begging for it to be repaired.

Funnily enough, I wonder whether Zephyr will twig that humans are basically a linked database of memes with a personality matrix on top, just that our processors are meat rather than gel packs... :D
 
teaching a lesson by glueing some goggly eyes as well as a foam knife to a cleaning drone and programming it to run into any crewmembers encountered on its cleaning rounds; then file a complaint when people mistreat his "pet".

as has probably already been said (I'll be surprised if not!) but everyone would treat Stabby the Star-Roomba as a pet, and would probably intentionally feed it crumbs. And Zephyr would roll his eyes so hard they'd be able to power the warp core.
 
Actually, for any given mathematics question A, you can write a somewhat more complicated question B whose answer is "all the steps necessary to prove the solution of A".
This was first demonstrated by Godel (in a limited context) as part of his proof of incompleteness. (The upshot of which is that B may not have an answer, leaving the truth of A undetermined in the system you're working in.)
 
as has probably already been said (I'll be surprised if not!) but everyone would treat Stabby the Star-Roomba as a pet, and would probably intentionally feed it crumbs. And Zephyr would roll his eyes so hard they'd be able to power the warp core.
I wonder how many exploratory psych experiments Zephyr's gone through. Does he really know he wouldn't?

We know Zephyr's capable of personal bonding. He thinks it's more limited with peers than it is in typical social species, and maybe so. But I don't think we know that he doesn't readily bond with subordinate creatures...
 
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"Everything showed as green," I told Harry Kim as he took the PADD I held out to him between a pair of claws, "But be careful out there, Ensign."

He nodded, "We will be, sir," he agreed and then walked over to join the rest of the away team by Shuttle One. They were heading down to one of the barely formed planets to investigate a dilithium deposit.

If we could pick up some extra crystals while we could, that would be great. They didn't exactly grow on trees and this was exactly the right environment to find some. They mainly formed in neutron star collisions, or rather the aftermath of them.

Early on in a star system's development there tended to be a bunch floating around, fairly easily accessible.

Well, comparably at least.

So we were sending an away team down to check that sensor contact. Hopefully Lieutenant Paris, Ensign Kim and Crewman Winters will be able to bring some back. And without scratching my damn shuttle.

And hopefully without Paris fucking something up and getting them all killed.

I snorted and turned away, heading for the exit. It was a mistake giving him an important posting, good pilot or not. But, not my decision, that was up to the Captain.

Our brand new, used to be science officer, captain.

Still, I couldn't really argue with the results. So far, she's done a pretty good job. So had Commander Tuvok for that matter, but the Vulcan was something like a hundred years old, so not like he was inexperienced. He just wasn't in Starfleet for some of it.

He even spent some time teaching at the academy at some point before I was there.

Archery for the survival courses out of all things, but still technically a teaching spot. Now that was a weapon I would never be able to use, bow and arrow. Which is kinda sad, I bet I could fire a real big and strong one, they were mostly limited by how weak humans were after all.

How would that even work, maybe I could design something that would work? Just as a challenge, it would hardly be practical. How would I even hold it? In my mouth likely, but how would I then pu-

I stopped by the corner a second before crewman Jamesson rounded it,

"Oh, sorry sir," she said, quickly dancing aside before she ran into me, long limbs flailing. She was tall for a human woman, tall and thin and wore her light brown hair in a kind of... I could only describe her chosen hairstyle as a poof. She was assigned to engineering, delta shift.

"No worries, crewman," I said, "But please be careful, it may be a bit more damaging running into me than the average person you meet."

She nodded, large hair wobbling, "Yeah, no kidding, sir. You look like you could lift a shuttlecraft."

"I'm more meaning my hard scales and high mass, it would be closer to colliding with a low speed ground vehicle than a person," I pointed out, "And I haven't lifted a shuttlecraft yet. Well, not really anyway."

Her eyebrows went up, "Not yet?"

I chuckled, "I may have slid one along the deck once or twice when I needed to shift it a bit rather than enter and use the controls."

"Wait, really? Even a small shuttle weighs tons!"

"It was pretty heavy," I admitted, "And it wasn't more than maybe ten centimeters."

It was also more putting my weight against it and pushing than outright lifting.

"That's... actually pretty impressive."

"Thank you. So please be careful."

"I will, sorry sir!" she said with a smile and moved to the side before heading past, big hair swaying like some kind of sea plant. I looked after her for a moment. I had no idea how she lived with that thing, it had to be getting in the way.

I knew for a fact that she spent most of her shifts in Jefferies tubes.

Finally I shook my head and headed towards engineering.

Lieutenant Carey looked up from a console when I entered, "Chief, we're about halfway done with those two drones."

I nodded as I moved up to him, "Any issues?"

"Not specifically," he admitted, shaking his head, "I'm a bit unsure about the looks."

I tilted my head, "What about it?"

"They look..." he started and then frowned, "...you're aware of the uncanny valley, right?"

Oh for...

I sighed, "Too human? Too not human?" I asked, "I thought I had it right."

I had based the design on what I remembered from that Will Smith movie, figuring it was good enough. It worked for people watching in any case.

Uncanny valley, why do humans even have that feature?

Carey shook his head, "Not sure, but they are something."

"Damn it," I grumbled, "Fine, what do you think will help the most? Full fake skin like a Soong android or just clearly non-human faceplate?

"Getting above the valley is a lot harder than beneath it," Carey admitted, "I think you had it right with Huginn and Muninn."

They were sculpted in a non-human somewhat draconoid shape.

I nodded, "Alright, let's try with a blank faceplate like a helmet. Structurally there is no real difference, just slight adjustment in sensor positions. Mainly to accommodate a third image sensor."

"Why a third?"

"Binocular vision is good, trinocular vision is better. Especially for depth perception and such," I said and shifted my wings in a slight shrug, "And does not take any more to implement. And with them not needing to be visible for aesthetics, much easier to implement."

Honestly, the only reason Huginn and Muninn are even bipeds is because Federation ships, stations and facilities were made for bipeds. Quadrupedal designs are clearly superior and much more stable to boot.

Maybe time for a redesign, they only really needed to be able to switch between normal mode and bipedal mode.

Maybe I could even give them a proper draconoid form too.

Sure, I'll put that on my 'to do' list behind everything else.
 
The valley almost certainly exists because there were other hominid species when we evolved, and it was beneficial to be freaked out by them instead of attracted or neutral to (most of) them. Probably due to incompatible genetics and resource competition.

But it's left a legacy of "so… turns out it was too close to human but not quite close enough so it's freaky"
 
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I actually think a non-human robot is better. They're easier to design, don't have problems with balance, and can get into all the places a human can't.

I was very disappointed watching Star Trek growing up that with all the robots they ran into all they had was DATA. So disappointing...
 
Another big reason the Uncanny Valley exists is because a number of nasty diseases that were quite contagious left permanent marks on those infected, leprosy as an easy example. Along with genetic abnormalities also sometimes showing, those who look human but different we instinctively look negatively at. It is something that can be overcome but it takes a reason to and wanting to.

When designing a drone robot... no reason not to keep it on the safely non-human side of the valley.
 
OoohhHhh IDEA make the faceplate blank but stamp on the Badge shape as the visor shape it has 3 clearly defined points and can be warped in diffrent proportions if you want to play around with sensor placement and in the blank space on the shape if there is not a 4th sensor in the middle is various icons the badges have had for diffrent specialists
 
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