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The Voyage Without

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When Jake was in the brig of the USS Valiant, the brig forcefields were still up and running despite the ship being half pounded into pieces with power disruptions everywhere. Nog had to manually release the fields.

While I can't say brig forcefields have fully independent power sources and backup redundancies, that and Michael's brig stint suggests Starfleet brig forcefields show a pattern of robustness.
 
Hiver said:
"We still want full insight into the cell,"
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Somewhat unusual wording? 'Clear direct over-watch of the cell' might be more the sense looked for? Of course, this might be a Zephyr-personal way of describing things...

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A neat plan for dealing with Seska, and thorough consideration of crew morale and unknown possible further issues, Kazon-wise. De-Seska-ing things is going to be tedious, isn't it?
 
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Baran3 said:
Remember Star Trek Discovery?

During one episode, Michael survived the vacuum because a small section of her jail still protected her with a force field.

Star Trek tech is very redundant and biased towards protection... Which is almost absurd considering the number of OSHA violations anywhere else.
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This is more a case of things not matching between series. There's a number of scenarios where a power fluctuation means the brig is open.
 
Silverias said:
This is more a case of things not matching between series. There's a number of scenarios where a power fluctuation means the brig is open.
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Someone obviously cut corners on the engineering, by removing the power-buffering systems? :)
(You'd expect power to go on working, in Medical and the Brig, even if it fails elsewhere. And, Engineering, if there's any power at all, because that's where it comes from. From a Doyalist PoV, gravity will, of course, keep working, because zero-G special effects are expensive! :) )

((Again, Doyalist PoV, lighting will keep working, because the whole point is for viewers to see what's going on (complicating things with the lighting working for viewers, but not the characters, probably considered 'too difficult' for many audiences). Life support will, of course, keep working, because, in general, viewers don't think about air. Honest, I'm not being cynical. Honest. :) ))
 
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Arch1987 said:
I have been thinking about how the threats in the delta quadrant may react to zephyr
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Even though they are still a long way off, I eagerly await an encounter with the Pralor and/or Cravic. They seem like a perfect fit for the AI theme this fic is playing with. That should make some progress in the field possible. Especially since those androids are superior to Voyager in terms of weaponry.
(Well, and because "Prototype" is one of my favorite Voyager episodes for some reason).
 
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Baran3 said:
Our shields are oriented towards energy weapons. Kinetic energy such as generated by a crash isn't well-handled by them. Launching a small chunk of metal at relativistic speed is still a bad day for the target.
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I might be wrong, but isn't the reason most ships use energy weapons, apart from the logistics of it, that shields and the navigational deflector are very good at deflecting physical objects at speed? With energy beams, you can tune the phase and frequency to hopefully overwhelm the emitters. With railgun slugs you're basically showering the enemy in mild navigational hazards.
 
Tranquil Zebra said:
With railgun slugs you're basically showering the enemy in mild navigational hazards.
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Most probably. Still, railguns do appear in Star Trek Online. And I think one episode of Voyager showed a railgun proposed to be sold by alien weapon merchants.

Besides, the deflector is mostly used during warp speeds and is limited to the forward pathway of the ship. So, a railgun projectile could bypass it.
 
Tranquil Zebra said:
I might be wrong, but isn't the reason most ships use energy weapons, apart from the logistics of it, that shields and the navigational deflector are very good at deflecting physical objects at speed? With energy beams, you can tune the phase and frequency to hopefully overwhelm the emitters. With railgun slugs you're basically showering the enemy in mild navigational hazards.
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This was always my impression as well. Physical objects seem to be a solved problem.
Even impulse drive gets ships moving pretty freaking fast, and we get dramatic scenes of bumping into asteroids relatively often. And warp drive is still traveling in real space, not another dimension, so presumably the deflectors are worth the huge amount of space they take up in preventing collision at those speeds.

That being said, we've had a fair few examples in story of phaser resistant biological creatures, which is pretty nuts. Perhaps a physical projectile with similar energy field ignoring properties could be more successful?
 
Baran3 said:
Zephyr: "Our shields are oriented towards energy weapons. Kinetic energy such as generated by a crash isn't well-handled by them. Launching a small chunk of metal at relativistic speed is still a bad day for the target."
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While the concern about kinetic energy is valid, it's important to note that in the Star Trek universe their defenses are significantly more effective against matter than energy. The primary function of the deflector dish is to prevent any kind of matter from causing damage during superluminal travel. Therefore, a piece of metal traveling at less than the speed of light isn't a threat to any vessel capable of warp.
 
drake_azathoth said:
It is weird, because IIRC the ship itself shouldn't usually be able to hold together during maneuvers without power. So either you've some small emergency power, which really should include the brig, or you're utterly screwed.
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The ship shouldn't be able to maneuver without power, so that's a self-solving problem.

(Also, depending on just how their magic propulsion works it might not put any stress on the hull anyway.)
 
Aineko said:
The ship shouldn't be able to maneuver without power, so that's a self-solving problem.
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I recall a number of cases when just thrusters (which presumably are a reaction drive, of some sort) are still working, but those are still able to heft around the whole mass of the Enterprise. Something weird is going on.

Also, other things moving the unpowered ship, are effectively the equivalent of it moving itself... Unless, you might claim in some cases, the Structural Integrity system keeps running under ridiculously otherwise unpowered situations, and/or something external holds the ship together.

Aineko said:
(Also, depending on just how their magic propulsion works it might not put any stress on the hull anyway.)
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Best guess is that the reaction-less Impulse Drive works by 'partial immersion in subspace', and the Warp Drive by 'near total immersion'. Also, the Structural Integrity system, the 'gravity plating', ditto use subspace. And all the force fields. And communications. Likely the higher-density power storage.

There was a scene in ST:TOS (the 20thC gangster world) that implied nearly all the 'magic physics' Trek tech had a similar basis...

Lock a ship from any interaction with subspace and odds are all they've got (if they're lucky) is fusion generators and electronics-type (mostly 20thC, bar some fancy materials, and Earth chemistry-type) tech... Better hope you've got some history-of-science types in Engineering...
 
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Ace Dreamer said:
I recall a number of cases when just thrusters (which presumably are a reaction drive, of some sort) are still working, but those are still able to heft around the whole mass of the Enterprise. Something weird is going on.
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Nitpickily, space is nice in that there's not really hefting around and the tiniest rocket can usefully move something huge if you're patient.

But I doubt those episodes are being patient that way rather than letting the show ship pull Gs.
Ace Dreamer said:
Also, other things moving the unpowered ship, are effectively the equivalent of it moving itself... Unless, you might claim in some cases, the Structural Integrity system keeps running under ridiculously otherwise unpowered situations, and/or something external holds the ship together.
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I will claim that if something grabs the unpowered Enterprise and drags it around, it probably should be expected that it could also pull its bits off if it wanted to.
 
Aineko said:
I will claim that if something grabs the unpowered Enterprise and drags it around, it probably should be expected that it could also pull its bits off if it wanted to.
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If you carefully place the unpowered Enterprise on an M-type planet, balanced on its engineering section, I've a strong suspicion that 1G will damage it. I'm unsure if the pylons would collapse. Odds are a later full structural analysis would be very wise.

'Defiant' would probably be OK, or the later Enterprise saucer-section.

Meanwhile, the crew would be being rude about the lack of readily available flashlights/torches...

(A powered Enterprise saucer-section should be able to safely land on a M-type planet, particularly in a suitable dock, and take-off. Why? By brute-force, if nothing else, even if it's doing everything with fusion reactors. (Power reserves are enough for Impulse Drive.) I'd like to have seen that, in at least one episode...)
 
Baran3 said:
Remember Star Trek Discovery?

During one episode, Michael survived the vacuum because a small section of her jail still protected her with a force field.

Star Trek tech is very redundant and biased towards protection... Which is almost absurd considering the number of OSHA violations anywhere else.
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Wasn't that also where she used some Starfleet ethics code to convince the computer to let her out so she could take a low-probability chance to survive rather than a certainty of slow death in her prison?
 
Magister Torvus said:
Even though they are still a long way off, I eagerly await an encounter with the Pralor and/or Cravic. They seem like a perfect fit for the AI theme this fic is playing with. That should make some progress in the field possible. Especially since those androids are superior to Voyager in terms of weaponry.
(Well, and because "Prototype" is one of my favorite Voyager episodes for some reason).
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That could be true, an event that could improve voyagers androids.
I've also taken a look at the undine (species 8472)
These are direct quotes from the wiki

"Their DNA is formed by a triple helix which makes them very resistant to almost all forms of biological attack, including Borg assimilation"

"The Borg consider them to be "the apex of biological evolution"

The second one may be overturned due to zephyrs presence lol.
 
Rihtan said:
While the concern about kinetic energy is valid, it's important to note that in the Star Trek universe their defenses are significantly more effective against matter than energy. The primary function of the deflector dish is to prevent any kind of matter from causing damage during superluminal travel. Therefore, a piece of metal traveling at less than the speed of light isn't a threat to any vessel capable of warp.
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This doesn't take into account the problem of inertia. Deflectors are devoted to things like gases, space dust, and micrometeorites, things which have trivial mass and effectively no inertia for most scientific purposes. It's not like ships are going superluminal within asteroid fields or something.

So while you would be correct for shit like Mass Effect guns, where the whole point is tiny pieces as small as you can manage, there's a case to be made that something like a BTech gauss rifle firing 120kg (at 1G gravity measurement) or so rounds would have more of an effect.

EDIT: obviously this assumes relatively same scaling, so the aforementioned GR probably wouldn't do much against Voyager, but it might be more useful against a runabout-scale deflector.
 
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CanYouMeme said:
This doesn't take into account the problem of inertia.
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How small can you make an Impulse Drive with power supply? The implication of a number of Trek scenes is that it can reduce inertia/momentum, presumably by dirty tricks using subspace. Can you run one in reverse so it increases inertia?

The trick then would be to harden an 'inertial pulse' system so that a shell with it on-board can be shot by a rail gun. Then, a proximity sensor burns-out the power supply spiking the shell's inertia just as it hits the shields of a target ship. So a 100kg shell (briefly) becomes a 100Mg one? Or more?

Just a thought...

EDIT:

Weapons is easy, it's the people stuff that's difficult?
 
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Ace Dreamer said:
How small can you make an Impulse Drive with power supply? The implication of a number of Trek scenes is that it can reduce inertia/momentum, presumably by dirty tricks using subspace. Can you run one in reverse so it increases inertia?

The trick then would be to harden an 'inertial pulse' system so that a shell with it on-board can be shot by a rail gun. Then, a proximity sensor burns-out the power supply spiking the shell's inertia just as it hits the shields of a target ship. So a 100kg shell (briefly) becomes a 100Mg one? Or more?

Just a thought...
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Sustaining warp fields can be done with small equipments. Remember the Klingon ambassador in Tung fired in a coffin probe that stayed at warp 9. Wouldn't be suprised if kinetic weapons could be fired at impulse with expensive equipment like what photon torpedos are. Maybe not cost effective but might be practical esp if it can pen shields.
 
Baran3 said:
Most probably. Still, railguns do appear in Star Trek Online.
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They are Kinetic weapons in STO, and Kinetic Weapons in STO do significant damage only when the target's shields are down.

Arch1987 said:
Sustaining warp fields can be done with small equipments. Remember the Klingon ambassador in Tung fired in a coffin probe that stayed at warp 9. Wouldn't be suprised if kinetic weapons could be fired at impulse with expensive equipment like what photon torpedos are. Maybe not cost effective but might be practical esp if it can pen shields.
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Then Photon Torpedoes would detonate inside shields rather than against them.

Railguns are a rare experimental weapon in STO (And are implied to have been something the Andorans were experimenting with in the ENT era and gave up on.), they are also not particularly good compared with the Soliton Wave Impeller, to the point that the Railgun is inferior to the incredibly meh Mining Laser. Other than that projectile weapons are only good against personal shields

IIRC The best experimental weapon that relies on formed projectiles fires protomatter explosives. And it isn't as good as the Soliton Wave Impeller or the Voice of the Prophets.

One has to assume that the multiple military-obsessed powers (Andorans, Klingons, Tzenkethi, etc) of the various quadrants would have gone over to them if they offered advantages, especially since they appear to have tried them before.
 
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CanYouMeme said:
This doesn't take into account the problem of inertia. Deflectors are devoted to things like gases, space dust, and micrometeorites, things which have trivial mass and effectively no inertia for most scientific purposes. It's not like ships are going superluminal within asteroid fields or something.

So while you would be correct for shit like Mass Effect guns, where the whole point is tiny pieces as small as you can manage, there's a case to be made that something like a BTech gauss rifle firing 120kg (at 1G gravity measurement) or so rounds would have more of an effect.

EDIT: obviously this assumes relatively same scaling, so the aforementioned GR probably wouldn't do much against Voyager, but it might be more useful against a runabout-scale deflector.
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The larger ships have Defector fields are rated for small asteroids( < 2 meters diameter). And when things get worse they can just use the proper Shields that can handle even more. Just for context I seem to remember one TNG episode where they were attacked by fighter craft using lasers, they didn't even have to raids the shields because just the base Defector field was able to protect the ship. Civilizations without Warp tech and the energy to use it just aren't capable of playing on the same field.

I ran some WAG(Wild Ass Guess) math and if you can get a runabout to hold still long enough to hit it with a couple of close range Naval Heavy Gauss Rifles you probably can overwhelm their Deflector and even have a decent chance to break though their shields if you can hit them enough times.
 
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    • I entered the brig and moved to sit down. I looked at the crewman standing guard and nodded towards the door.

    He nodded back and left.

    Then I turned my attention back to the cell.

    Seska was sitting at the back of it, looking at me in turn, "I suppose they didn't get the answers they wanted so they sent you here to intimidate me?"

    I shook my head, "Nope. Not going to hurt you, so that's not really intimidating unless you have a hidden phobia for reptiles. Besides, I think you're plenty afraid already. You're either going to end up being stuck in that box for the rest of your life or dropped off somewhere."

    She scowled at me, "Oh please. I looked around a bit on Voyager's computer, that's all. My skills are way too valuable."

    I looked at her in amusement, "Yes, let's discuss that, I'm here to mock you after all. You were in the computer for close to a year and all you managed to access was the internal comm system and the cleaning bots? Want to know how fast I had root access to all of the Val Jean? Using a shuttle and a Kazon computer core?"

    Seska snorted, "Took you a year to even notice me. How does that feel?"

    I laughed, "Pretty good actually. You had a year of access and couldn't do anything, even with a hardline connection? My security is awesome."

    She rolled her eyes.

    "I am curious though," I continued as I shifted to get comfortable, "What exactly was your plan here? Take over Voyager with your Kazon friends and... what, rule them as their god-queen?"

    "I have nothing to do with the Kazon."

    "So you insist, but an agent of the Obsidian Order always has a plan."

    Seska sighed, "I'm not from the Obsidian Order."

    I looked at her, "Yes, you're just an innocent civilian, you slipped on a fruit peel and fell into a magical spring. When you returned to the surface, you were a Bajoran. You have struggled since to break this curse. During your journey you learned the power of friendship and decided to help the poor Maquis against their Cardassian overlords."

    Hey, that would be a pretty holonovel. Maybe I'll write it.

    Seska just shook her head, "Believe what you like."

    "So, you're not with the Kazon. Who is?" I asked, "You may be shit with computers, but I can't see you not having the Val Jean bugged to hell and back by now. So who's talking to them?"

    "I don't know."

    I tilted my head, "You don't have the Val Jean bugged?" I asked, "Wow, you're the worst spy I've ever heard of. Which really is saying something, you really shouldn't hear about spies."

    Seska took a deep breath before letting it out, "I don't know who it is or if anyone even is. If somebody is, it's not someone on the Val Jean."

    "Impossible. Nobody on Voyager could send any messages without me knowing about it."

    She smirked, "I did. For a year."

    I bared my teeth at her, "That does not count."

    "You keep telling yourself that," she said with a smirk, "And I'll be out of here soon. And can finally get rid of this ridiculous disguise."

    "What did they do, genetic resequencing and cosmetic surgery?" I asked, genuinely curious.

    Seska just shrugged.

    I shook my head, "So what exactly was your plan? Take over the ship? Gather information to use to bend everyone to your will, what?"

    She was quiet for several long moments before she spoke up, "Aren't you tired of Janeway's stupid calls?"

    I just tilted my head in question, so she continued.

    "She got us stranded here. She's not even an actual Starfleet Captain, she just happened to have the highest rank left. Wouldn't you or even the Vulcan be a better choice?"

    "Of course I would be a better choice," I told her, "But that's not how things work."

    "Why not? If you could actually have time to work, you could likely get us home much faster," Seska said, "And not stop and look at every anomaly on the way. You might even be able to get us back soon enough to see the people left behind that you care about before they die."

    I regarded her for a long moment, "So what do you suggest? Mutiny?"

    "Of course not. Even if you don't want command, Tuvok would be a better choice than Janeway and we would need you in engineering. Janeway could do what she likes best, go back to being the science officer. Tuvok is older, has more experience."

    "Didn't he fool you?"

    "Exactly," Seska said, "I had no idea he was a Starfleet Agent. Do you have any idea how difficult that is? He's clearly a superior choice."

    I slowly nodded. She had some points.

    "So that was your goal? Depose Janeway and put somebody competent in charge?"

    Seska nodded, "Even if it was just Tuvok, it would likely take decades off our trip. He may be steeped in Starfleet propaganda, but he's logical and annoyingly good at his job."

    "And I'm not?"

    "Lieutenant, you're the best engineer and possibly the smartest person I have ever met. And I say that to somebody that was on a ship with B'Elanna Torres," Seska said as she stood up, walking closer to the forcefield, "You're scarily competent. I have no doubt that if you were in command, you'd get this ship home."

    I regarded her for several long moments, "You're trying to influence me against the Captain."

    Seska shook her head, "No. Janeway is not fit to be captain, but you already know that. Me saying it wouldn't change your mind. You wanted to know my plan, that is it. Optimally, I would be in charge. But that was never going to happen, even if it was not discovered if I was Cardassian. Our best shot to get home is to put you in charge or if that didn't work, Tuvok in control of Voyager. And then move everyone off the Val Jean and consolidate our resources."

    Hmh.

    "You know," I finally said as I studied her, "You make a lot of sense."

    "Of course I do," she said, crossing her arms, "I'm Cardassian, we're a meritocracy. You don't get where I am without being good at what you do. And so is Starfleet, usually. If we were back in the Alpha Quadrant and the Captain and First Officer had been killed, do you really think Janeway would have been made Captain? Or would she have been replaced as soon as you got back to the closest starbase?"

    That was very true.

    "And you really didn't work with the Kazon?"

    Seska shrugged, "If somebody is, they're not on the Val Jean. And I didn't detect anyone on Voyager doing it either. I'm not, they're a bunch of savages. I'm not dumb enough to try to trust them to hold to any deal even if I tried to make one."

    I nodded, "I believe you."

    Not.

    "Thank you. You may be the only one right now."

    "You're right too," I continued.

    "About what?"

    "Me. I am the smartest person you have ever met," I said, "What do you think, Captain? Wanna switch jobs?"

    "If you're unhappy about administrative tasks as chief engineer, I'm not sure you'd enjoy it very much. I'm certainly not enjoying that part," Janeway answered through my comm badge.

    "No thank you then," I said, "But if you'd stop breaking my ship, I would appreciate it."

    "We'll do our best, Lieutenant."

    Seska stared at me with wide eyes.

    I looked at her in amusement, "I believe that's two to me, zero to you. Are you sure you're a real spy?"
     
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